RT etiquette - Another Stupid Question

[piperboy84]

My question is the following: Is it considered helpful or pushy or at worst breaching RT rules by offering the CT folks a jump on what they are going to say? I probably should reiterate I am new to UK flying, I hold a FAA PPL and 95% of my flying has been in and out US class Delta and Charlie fields usually underneath Class Bravo in metro LA and San Francisco.

Specifically, when approaching my then home field of Santa Monica (a fairly busy GA field) there was usually 5 to 10 other aircraft operating and the CT was quite busy. It was fairly routine for approaching pilots to anticipate the controllers instructions based on instructions to previous traffic and make that anticipated traffic advisory part of the initial RT request, i.e.

The standard procedural RT would go something like this:

ME: " XX Tower, Nxxxx over (vrp xxx) at 1500 with (ATIS X ) inbound for full stop landing
CT: " NXXXX make right traffic for 21, report downwind abeam the numbers"
ME:" XX Tower, Nxxxx will make right traffic for 21, reporting downwind abeam the numbers"

The expedited practice frequently used to keep the frequency clear would be as follows:

ME: "XX Tower Nxxxx over( VRP xxx) at 1500 with (ATIS X) inbound for full stop landing request right traffic for 21 ,reporting downwind abeam the numbers"
CT " Nxxxx request approved"

Would this be acceptable here in the UK, or would it go over like a sh*t in the jacuzzi?
Based on my last "stupid question" post, please allow me a few minutes to baton down the hatches and assume a defensive posture for the inevitable beating coming my way. Also, in anticipation of some of the more tut tutting responses, I have viewed both the Oxford VFR RT Comms + UK Supplement vids.

[neilgeddes]

I think it's usual just to start with "Somewhere TWR, G-ABCD inbound" and wait for their reply to pass your message.

[Genghis the Engineer]

I agree with Neil, whilst apparently being helpful, you don't know what else ATC is up to at that moment, so they invariably prefer the initial placeholder call.

G

[Genghis the Engineer]

Yes, I've heard that also, but I've also seen some controllers get very frustrated at it. Try it at Cranfield sometime and see what sort of earful they give you*.

A small add-on can be helpful, for example...

"Popham Radio, G-ABCD, inbound"

"Brize Zone, G-ABCD, for basic service and zone crossing"


Because without asking anything of them, it gives the controller a heads up about what you're going to be asking for. But even this is somewhat non-standard and I'd only use it if the bandwidth is quiet. If it's busy,

"Farnborough Radar, G-ABCD"

is enough, and no more.


The only exception where I'd give a full message straight off is an emergency call. But in that case, "Mayday - Mayday - Mayday" or "Pan-pan pan-pan pan-pan" takes long enough to give the controller a chance to put down the phone or his coffee mug and pick up his pencil. Plus, anybody inconvenienced by a genuine emergency can jolly well live with it.

G

* N.B. I heard a controller make a brief joke on RT whilst I was teaching at EGTC the other day. A quite unique experience which unsettled me greatly. However, they restored honour at the end of the sortie by bollocking my student for landing a bit too late and fast to turn of at Charlie, so normal grumpiness was properly restored.

[tow1709]

Apologies for thread drift, but could not let Ghengis' postscript pass; he wrote:

* N.B. I heard a controller make a brief joke on RT whilst I was teaching at EGTC the other day. A quite unique experience which unsettled me greatly. However, they restored honour at the end of the sortie by bollocking my student for landing a bit too late and fast to turn of at Charlie, so normal grumpiness was properly restored.

I did my first solo at EGTC (Cranfield) a few years ago, landed on 21 a tiny bit long but too late to exit at Charlie, so I announced I was exiting from Echo. I now know that I should have requested this rather than gone ahead and done it.

Probably why I never got a "congratulations" or a "well done" from the tower!

[BEagle]

I did my first solo at EGTC (Cranfield) a few years ago, landed on 21 a tiny bit long but too late to exit at Charlie, so I announced I was exiting from Echo. I now know that I should have requested this rather than gone ahead and done it.

Probably why I never got a "congratulations" or a "well done" from the tower!

The Flying Prevention Branch occasionally need to be reminded that "No stick = no vote!"

[what next]

Bear in mind that in the U.S. 99% of pilots are english native speakers who will understand abbreviated and non-standard communications pretty well. Here in Europe, less than 10 percent are native speakers, on the rest of us English has been forced as communications language. A lot of pilots have enough difficulty with standard communications already (ICAO Level 4 obviously does not mean a lot) and will be totally cut-off by anything else. Therefore stick to the standard and everything will be fine. The time you save by abbreviating will be needed two times for explaining the one foreigner in the circuit what's going on around him.
And the fact that places like Amsterdam, Paris and Frankfurt (who rank high among the busiest airports in the world) function like clockworks clearly shows that standard ICAO phraseaology is perfectly up to the job.

[dont overfil]

Hi Piperboy,
Genghis has it right but it can depend on the individual airport in odd cases.

Your local airfield to the south west only has AG radio so while you are talking to the radio operator, remember the calls are for the benefit of all the traffic in the area so position reports after the initial "heads up" call are important.

Initial call for departure by all means say "N**** Understand runway 27 right hand QNH 1020 taxiing C"

The large international airport 30 miles further south wants to know you are arriving or transiting before you fly either by flightplan or phone otherwise you may be orbiting 'till they make up a flight strip.

They should already have your flight strip so the initial call will be "XX approach, Maule N**** with information A" (From the ATIS). The ATIS actually asks for the initial call in that format.

Individual airports can have their own quirky rules but that is what the three major Scottish airports ask for.

D.O.

[Whopity]

Piperboy

I suggest you learn the UK procedures which are quite different to those in the USA. When you have learned them, stick to them. It is called Discipline not Etiquette.

[stickandrudderman]

Hey Piperboy,
You're improving. A full 9 responses before you got a bashing! Good going!

[thing]

.......LOL!!:D

[Big Pistons Forever]

Piperboy

I suggest you learn the UK procedures which are quite different to those in the USA. When you have learned them, stick to them. It is called Discipline not Etiquette.

Good point what do those stupid Americans know, I mean they only operate 70 % of the worlds light aircraft :rolleyes:

[BackPacker]

I did my first solo at EGTC (Cranfield) a few years ago, landed on 21 a tiny bit long but too late to exit at Charlie, so I announced I was exiting from Echo. I now know that I should have requested this rather than gone ahead and done it.

I may be wrong but is my understanding that you are simply assumed to vacate the runway via the nearest convenient and reachable exit. If you screw up the landing and can't make the first turnoff, you have every right to continue to the next. You don't need to inform ATC or ask their permission.

If ATC doesn't want you to take a specific exit, for whatever reason, it's up to them to inform you about it ASAP, preferably well before you turn final.

The only time you do need to ask permission is when you want to backtrack to an exit you've already passed. And of course it's bad form to slow down to a slow taxi speed when the nearest exit is still quite a distance away. Better let the aircraft roll at a high but managable and safe speed. (Taildraggers and such being the obvious exception due to their poorer ground handling characteristics.)

[dont overfil]

Silvaire1,
The use of "N" prefix is mandatory outside the USA.
D.O.

[n5296s]

The use of "N" prefix is mandatory outside the USA.
That must make it awkward if you're flying a non-US registered aircraft?

[piperboy84]

Whopity
I suggest you learn the UK procedures which are quite different to those in the USA. When you have learned them, stick to them. It is called Discipline not Etiquette.


Name = Who Pity,
Babbling on about "discipline with a capital "D"
Location = Europe

Hmmm, Is the exact location in "Europe" a large industrialised country in the North that is sometimes referred to as the" Vaterland" per chance?

[Jan Olieslagers]

No.
I say again : NO.

[piperboy84]

Well Jan if you think not, then I would have to put my money on Austria or Northern Italy to place or show in the jerk sweepstakes

[Jan Olieslagers]

I do not think.
I know.
Having had the pleasure to visit this gentleman at home.

And you'll excuse me to bite my tongue for not writing something along the lines of "the USA owning 70% of the world's G/A fleet doesn't disagree with their owning 90% of the world's stupidity". You'd be surprised to learn the high degree of authority Whopity has in aviation, not to mention his nationality. Which is of course totally irrelevant, too.

[piperboy84]

Well if “high degree of authority” impresses you, it’s certainly no surprise you’re hanging out with No Pity judging by his directives. And if “nationality is irrelevant” why stereotype Americans as 90% of them being stupid? I always defined stupidity as making incredibly bad decisions that one ends up losing big time from. Move on my friend your barking up the wrong tree here.
Enjoy your flying and be safe

[Lightning Mate]

I always defined stupidity as making incredibly bad decisions that one ends up losing big time from.

Now listen Mr. Yank.

Please learn to speak English and not end a sentence with a preposition!


my friend your barking up the wrong

Ever heard of a suitably placed apostrophe?

"My gad", I hear you say - "this is like aawsome - I mean I'm like.........."

[Genghis the Engineer]

Ladies,

To quote a former and very much unlamented head of PLD: "Kick the player, not the ball". Any more personal attacks and I will start deleting posts and thread banning one or two people who seem incapable of civilised discussion in the Queen's (or President's!) English.

G

Mod.

[KKoran]

Piperboy,

I don't know why it would be appropriate to do it in the UK when it isn't appropriate in the US (based on my experience as a US controller and pilot).

[thing]

I love it when perfectly civilised and affable adults fall out on an internet forum. :}

Keep it going. Ghengis, cut them some slack, it's more entertaining than Dancing On X Factor Ice Dancing Got Talent.

[piperboy84]

Awllwight Lightening my old mucker fram dawn souff, You too are barking up the wrong tree, I’ll bet ya a pony I’m as British as you are, or very probably more. Yes I am an American citizen who immigrated to California as a teenager, but born and bred (and educated) right here in the UK. A descendant of 7 generations of highland farmers that can trace our ancestry in Inverness-shire back to the 1600’s. And also very proudly named after one of them, a very brave young aviator called Iain Stewart who was killed at 23 over Holland performing his duties for a group you may ( or may not depending your lineage) have heard off, they call themselves the RAF.

Of course, like our friend Jan says, nationality is irrelevant. But I do like to set a presumptuous bar steward straight when I get the opportunity.

I hope that my grammar and punctuation are not to offensive to you, Unfortunately I had to finish my education at 15 but did manage to go on and found and build a multinational hi tech company which I recently sold on Wall Street( Go USA!!!!) and retired at the age of 45 back to my first love the highlands of Scotland and flying my Maule every day the sun is out.

Life is good my friend, safe flying

Ghengis, Sorry, I could not let Lightning’s comment go unanswered. This is the end of this discussion for me, kicked off or not.

[Echo Romeo]

piperboy84 :ok:

[patowalker]

hope that my grammar and punctuation are not to offensive to you,

They are certainly not offensive too me.

[mary meagher]

Hey, Piperboy 84, don't go way mad! I was just planning to jump aboard this entertaining thread with my own dearly won pearls of wisdom.....

First of all, you stuffy Brits, (I'm allowed to say that about a Nationality, not an Individual, OK) lets have a little more respect for our friend who was born in Scotland, went over to the US and prospered, and now comes home to the land of heavy rain and midges to enjoy our favorite sport.....

Both Silvaire 1 and Piperboy84 are viewing the topic of addressing various forms of ATC from the American viewpoint. Anyone who can, like Piperboy, fly from Sanda Monica and buzz round under San Francisco and Los Angeles Class B Airspace deserves respect.

I speak from the point of view of a dual national, holding both passports; managed this by marrying a true English Gentleman, now alas passed away.
I learned to fly at High Wycombe and may be considered a British pilot with a funny accent; added on various qualifications in the USA such as an IR (which all you Instrument Rated Brits will sniff at, but it still works in anything with a G reg, so there), and a Seaplane Rating, Commercial Instructor in Gliders courtesy of the GADO being impressed by my BGA rating...etc etc. And flew gliders in the Soviet Union.

So Piperboy and Silvaire1, though no longer holding a medical, I still offer free advice.

In the UK, joining any circuit is a can of worms. Every little airport over here has its own setup, and I cannot understand the rational for an overhead join vs the simple join downwind, complicating unnecessarily what should be a straightforward procedure.

In the UK, there are at least 3 kinds of communication with your intended destination. Simple and straightforward, Air Traffic Control who tell you what to do and when to do it, just like in the USA. Then you have various stages of expertise managing the inbetween sort of radio, eg. Wellesbourne, Enstone, where advice may be offered but you don't have to take it.

And then there is plain old Ground radio, like Shenington Ground, where they can advise you of hazards, but are forbidden from using the word "cleared to....." and half the time nobody is managing the frequency anyhow.

Whereas in the wide open spaces of the US, at unmanned and uncontrolled little airports, the pilots talk to each other on Unicom, saying for example, Red Lion Traffic, this is Cessna 43885, joining downwind for 25, and anyone else listening out contributes useful information about their own position and intentions.

Scotland is all cluttered up with lochs and mountains, but is not terribly crowded. They have closed one or two of the northernmost RAF bases up there; as the current government is drawing down the funds available for aircraft, and probably for training as well,consequently probably fewer pairs of Eurofighters these days surprise the innnocent civilian sightseers visiting the Cairngorns. Main problem with flying in Scotland is probably weather.
We had to sit around for days trying out different sorts of single malts before the promise of a good clear day with suitable lenticulars could reward our journey north....

Why not, Piperboy, check in at Deeside Gliding Club and tell them Mary sent you.....they might still remember the time we had them round to our bothy for a dinner of salmon and venison.....those were the days!

[n5296s]

Another +1 for piperboy.

The propensity for people on this forum to make gratuitous and patronisingly offensive remarks in response to perfectly innocent and well-meaning posts never ceases to amaze me. Sadly I think that is a very real difference between the US and Northern Europe, and not at all in favour of the Europeans.

By the way the stuff about prepositions at the end of a sentence is complete nonsense. It's a totally arbitrary invention by one person in the 19th century. There is absolutely no historical reason for it to be true. Of course - and sadly - there will always be people who like nothing better than to gratuitously find fault on the basis of some "rule" that they think they know. (Oops, there goes another one).

[Genghis the Engineer]

By the way the stuff about prepositions at the end of a sentence is complete nonsense. It's a totally arbitrary invention by one person in the 19th century. There is absolutely no historical reason for it to be true. Of course - and sadly - there will always be people who like nothing better than to gratuitously find fault on the basis of some "rule" that they think they know. (Oops, there goes another one).

I'm pretty certain that Shakespeare did it on occasion - and I'll bet that some Victorian grammar obsessive at some point said "see, it's such a common mistake that even The Bard got it wrong occasionally".

G

[soaringhigh650]

Initial call for departure by all means say "N**** Understand runway 27 right hand QNH 1020 taxiing C"


Or if you've heard that altimeter and runway and wind too much already then you can cut it even shorter - "<callsign> taxiing C. I have the numbers".

[Genghis the Engineer]

Or if you've heard that altimeter and runway and wind too much already then you can cut it even shorter - "<callsign> taxiing C. I have the numbers".

And you say "I have the numbers" by using the ICAO standard phrase "with information Alpha, QNH 1010" (change letter and numbers to suit reality). And presumably you are operating from an airfield where there's no control of ground movements? And nobody does a radio check.

But I hate to think what response I'd get from any of my local airfields if I used gash non-standard phraseology like that. Or most North American airports I've flown from for that matter. It would certainly do little for my continued existence as an instructor.

G

[piperboy84]

mary, Thanks for the explanation, on the subject of lochs, midges and uncontrolled fields here is a link to a short vid u may like
Maule MX-7-180 n3110j - YouTube

[soaringhigh650]

And presumably you are operating from an airfield where there's no control of ground movements? And nobody does a radio check


It is actually used at towered (controlled) fields. Radio checks for VFR flight are not really done here but if reception is bad you'll be told.

If it is untowered it'll be the CTAF (air-to-air), often with another AWOS/ASOS frequency to get the weather. In such case it'll be a little weird to tell other pilots you "have the numbers".

[thing]

I think basically what we are saying here is that procedures in the USA vary from those used in the UK. Which isn't surprising really being as it's a completley different country in a completely different continent. I doubt whether our procedures are the same in Mali or Thailand either.

[mad_jock]

In general apart from the odd one or two things like flight level one zero zero instead of flight level one hundred. Brit RT won't get you into trouble.

The yank standard can and does cause bloody mayhem world wide.

[thing]

Jock, excuse my new ignorance but which is it we use in UK, is it FL 'one zero zero' for 10,000 ft on the QNE or 'FL one hundred'? Not that I fly a/c that get that high without a severe talking to.

[n5296s]

watch a couple of the PPRuNe comm experts make their way VFR from Thermal to Santa Monica
Nothing to worry about - everyone else (Palm Springs Approach, LA Center, Socal, SMO Tower) would be wrong. They'd probably spend ages writing on here about what a bunch of idiots those yanks are for getting everything wrong, and how they even split an infinitive.

It would be fun to watch them doing an overhead join at SMO though.

[Big Pistons Forever]

Must not engage in willy waving contest

Must not engage in willy waving contest

Must not engage in willy waving contest

Must not engage in willy waving contest

Must not engage in willy waving contest

OH Heck who am I kidding this is PPRUNe :p

So it is a busy Friday afternoon in the Seattle terminal airspace. A G registered biz jet with a Veddy Veddy British accented pilot is being a right pillock. Rude demanding and a pain in the arse the controller finally has enough when the pilot demands to know why his third request for a direct routing was denied. His response "Listen more and talk less you are in America NOW ! " :E

[Genghis the Engineer]

BPF - sounds like the chap you were listening to was just being an arse. Direct routings are often denied over here as well.

G

[mary meagher]

Oh yes, I've got another one.....in my Piper Supercub with a British chum in the back seat, just setting out on an excursion to Ireland the long way round....still had a transponder etc. Departing Shenington Gliding Club heading North, the 4 eighths became 6 eighths became 7 eighths....cloudbase 800 feet. I had of course been monitoring Birmingham Approach. Decided
what the heck, and requested a climb into their sacred airspace. Hadn't heard a single chirp out of anyone else asking any sort of service at all, so they were NOT BUSY.

Request denied.

Tried again few minutes later. Request denied. and one more time, as it was getting really interesting remaining VFR. Still request denied. Whereupon a listening Speedbird (for you Yanks, that's British Airways) intoned

"You're not in America now, you know!"

You can say that again! So recognising through a gap in the clouds the factory roofs at Lutterworth, dived down and nipped into Husbands Bosworth, gliding club, and had a nice breakfast while waiting for conditions to improve. Which they did eventually. In the remainder of the extended journey, all Radar services and ATC in Ireland North and South bent over backwards to be kind and helpful.

But as other posters on this delightful thread have remarked, the way to open your conversation with any service is to say simply, "Birmingham Approach, this is Supercub Golf Oscar Foxtrot Echo Romeo" and then wait for them to come back to you.....which they will. Eventually.

[mary meagher]

Good morning, Genghis, did you have a nice weekend? We sure did! great weather for February!

Can't resist this one...regarding requests for direct routing.....I was listening out on channel 9 in a United transatlantic flight, when an American Airlines flight requested a direct route to Bovingdon from someplace up North....

The London controller gently remarked that his requested direct would take him directly through a Danger Zone where missile and other ordinance was likely to be encountered.....

Where upon a Speedbird commented on frequency "Go for it!"

[pembroke]

I've waded through the above and one obvious point re.the first call seems to have been missed. It's often the the practice to state the "intention" of the flight on the first call, ie Local, outbound, inbound or transit, to enable the correct coloured ATC strip to be used.
Also, for a pilot new to UK airspace,as said already, a good understanding of the UK, ATC, AFIS,A/G services, plus the difference between "basic, traffic, procedural and deconfliction" is required.

[Genghis the Engineer]

Good morning, Genghis, did you have a nice weekend? We sure did! great weather for February!

No! I have a stinking cold. The high point of my weekend was sitting in a vintage cockpit with a couple of tins of humbrol touching up scuffed paint on the controls and instrument panel!


Your post illustrates very well, as did BPF's post - both the US and the UK have a proportion of pillocks flying aeroplanes, and sometimes both countries are stupid enough to let them out to annoy other countries. No great surprise really. (Visit the more popular tourist destinations of both countries and you discover that it's not just idiot pilots that shouldn't be allowed to travel of course).


Where were we? Oh yes, the OP asking some sensible questions about VFR RT and it being demonstrated that normal practice varies between countries, and often between airfields within countries.

I flew from Thermal to Palm Springs a year or so ago - very different places in RT terms! Ditto if, say, I went from Cranfield to Popham. Learn it, and live with it ! Which seemed to be what the OP was trying to do.

G

[mad_jock]

BFP there are some that are just as guilty of stupidity like that where ever they come from. The use of roger and wilco seems to be alien to alot from what ever nationality.

I was intending to mean more about the manditory readbacks and set phrases eg "climbing flight level xxxx" some see them as anally retentive but they work.

There are more than a few Yanks with clear and concise RT but I suspect that they are old hands outside the USA and experence has taught them a way that works.

And thing in the UK currently all transition alts are below 7 000 ft so you won't have to. BTW its FL one hundred. FL two hundred and FL one five zero etc for the others.

And to be honest silver has a very good point. I know what I am doing with IFR coms (which to be honest is easier than VFR) but i am out of practise with VFR. It is also very common as well for instructors when transfering to IFR operations to be almost back to square one again with RT. They were poo hot at VFR coms position reports, free calling and the like. Different set of phrases and it throws them out until they begin to know what to expect next and set responce.

[soaringhigh650]

I think basically what we are saying here is that procedures in the USA vary from those used in the UK.

We can be more casual with each other because everyone speaks the same language.

In Europe I can see why it is essential to stick to the standard speak as someone's level of English can be very basic.