23yo model walks into propeller

[DocJacko]

Fashion Editor Walks Into Propeller, Survives; Parents Discuss - Yahoo! (http://gma.yahoo.com/video/news-26797925/fashion-editor-walks-into-propeller-survives-parents-discuss-27507162.html#crsl=%252Fvideo%252Fnews-26797925%252Ffashion-editor-walks-into-propeller-survives-parents-discuss-27507162.html)

Texas: Model läuft in Propeller - SPIEGEL ONLINE - Nachrichten - Panorama (http://www.spiegel.de/panorama/gesellschaft/0,1518,802137,00.html)

This happened in McKinney/Texas. She lost one of her hands and sustained multiple severe injuries to her head, shoulders, face and one eye.
Apparently she had just disembarked the 2-seat plane while the pilot remained in his seat to wait for the next passenger between two flights.

[maxred]

That is truly dreadful. I hope the girl makes as best, and speedy a recovery as possible.

Difficult though when a first time flyer is asked to leave an aeroplane, whilst engine is still running. The euphoria/excitement of the flight, dark???, mixes to a dangerous cocktail.

[Torque Tonight]

Wasn't there are report recently issued concerning a similar accident in the UK where a girl stepped of the front of a PA-28 wing?

My education as a pilot instilled into me a fear of propellers in the same way that once people had a fear of God: that is a supreme respect for the things at all times, whether apparently alive or dead, and an understanding that they may smite ye down without warning. This has served me well so far, but often my attitude is challenged as risk averse or old fashioned (however isn't it a good thing to be averse to unnecessary risk). I cringe when I see people handling propellers casually, putting arms and necks through the discs on walkarounds, pull aircraft by the blades, curl fingers around the trailing edge when hand-swinging or sucking in, stand or walk too close to props and tail rotors. I can't help but form opinions about professionalism based on what I see.

A pilot has an even greater responsibility to ensure the safety of his passengers who are generally completely ignorant of the many risks that props and rotors pose. The PIC must brief pax thoroughly in advance, and most recent acidents have occurred to pax that have received no briefing whatsoever. Running changes were normal when I was on a UAS but everyone had been briefed beforehand. The problem is that most new PPL pilots and many instructors seem unalert to the dangers, and so the chance of warnings filtering down to first time passengers is almost zero - unfortunately with the expected consequences.

[SFCC]

Truly horrific.
The chap in the driving seat must be beside himself.

I saw two guys do a running change just a couple of weeks ago at our place.
Unspeakably dangerous.

[worldpilot]

Such an accident shows that not only passengers are ignorant of aviation risks. The PIC in this incident was equally very ignorant of the risks and has a lot of paper work to do elaborating this event to FAA.:{

I wish the model a steady recovery and all the best, even though life will never be as it was before.

world pilot

[cumulusrider]

My father was on halifaxes during the war and saw this hapen twice. The first time the erk managed to walk through the arc of the propellor when the engine was idling without a scratch. The second time the engine was being run up and the victim wasnt so lucky.
Propellors and circular saws have much in common, one mistake and you are toast.

Cumulusrider

[Pilot DAR]

My words from the other thread on this:

Yep, this'll be on the pilot. In my opinion, there have to be pretty severe circumstances to leave a propeller turning with a passenger exiting. I'll occasionally do it if I have a "qualified" passenger (another pilot, aircraft mechanic), but never a not aircraft familiar person - it's just not worth the risk.

When hot exiting a knowledgeable pax, I always do two things: I turn the aircraft so the path from the exit, to where they will be walking is away from the prop, and I make eye contact while I remind them to watch out for the prop. I've never had a problem.

Wingstruts are a somewhat helpful barrier (which is why Cessna Cardinals were said to have a higher incidence of prop/pax strikes). I wonder how this passenger got around the wingstrut, and back in so close to the aircraft. Pilot parked the plane pointed toward the footpath destination? Doing this at night was a remarkably poor idea. If the woman were to notice the prop during daylight, she would not at night. And then she waved at someone.....

This unfortunate (ok, careless) accident needs lots of publicity among pilots, to remind us of our responsibility to passenger safety.

[AdamFrisch]

On the Aero Commander it's extra dangerous as you exit just behind the prop arc, under the wing. The door blocks you from going forward immediately, but if you go under the nacelle it's wide open. Dreadful.

[maxred]

'I cringe when I see people handling propellers casually, putting arms and necks through the discs on walkarounds, pull aircraft by the blades, curl fingers around the trailing edge when hand-swinging or sucking in, stand or walk too close to props and tail rotors. I can't help but form opinions about professionalism based on what I see'.

So true. It astonishes me the amount of pilots who have an apparent indifference to the dangers posed. I have spent a great deal of time flying types that require hand swing/suck in, and the time spent at or near props is when I give it my utmost attention. I have only had one fire on me, a Chipmunk, engine warm, there were two people standing close, thank God I asked them to move, I turned the prop, and it fired.

I also would only allow another pilot to do a hot swap, even then, it is fully briefed, even pointing in the direction they have to go. Not a place for complacancy.

[BackPacker]

And make sure your hands are already on the mixture control and/or ignition switches, so you can shut down immediately (and I mean IMMEDIATELY) if somebody makes a move in the wrong direction.

[Rocket2]

"I have only had one fire on me" so have I - a backfire which took off my thumb, thanks to surgeons at Salisbury's Oddstock Hosp sewed it back on & is still working well.
Learned a very big lesson that day & am scared stiff of swinging props now.
R2

[Pilot DAR]

I once hand propped my buddy's 150 for him. I called "mags off" and got back "mags off". One pull, and it started. I looked at him in disbelief, through the turning prop..... He removed, and held up the keys for me to see.

Lots of caution required around props!

[hhobbit]

That is a sad and horrific story and I wish the unfortunate victim all the best.

Like many model fliers, I carry a few scars from encounters with the little devil engines. Now in model world, there is a device called a "chicken stick" which you can use to flick a prop instead of putting you finger in the arc of the prop. I was wondering if there is a full size equivalent? I would be scared stiff of hand cranking a Rotax three blader, although I understand there is a recommended technique.

I confess at times I push and pull my Rotax powered plane out of the hangar by the prop, but never rotating it. Maybe a simple wooden grabbers would be easily knocked up, what do you think, would it be worth it? It could for instance incorporate a torque limiting device, even one as simple as a shear pin.

[RTN11]

Rather than pulling any aircraft by the prop, simply find someone to help and move it by the wing tips. If a third person is required to dip the tail to get the nose up, so be it. Far safer than grabbing a prop and pulling, one slip (especially now it's icy) and the prop will turn.

[Deeday]

I would be scared stiff of hand cranking a RotaxRotax are marginally safer than Lyco/Conti, in that respect, since they are supposed to be shut down by selecting the mags Off (not by pulling the mixture lever, which is missing). So the chances of leaving the aircraft parked with a dormant live magneto are somehow reduced.

Obviously you still have to make sure that the mags are Off and the keys out, before getting near to the prop.

[dont overfil]

Pilot DARs story reminds me of a C172 I used to fly,
The keys would occesionally fall out of the mag switch whilst flying. Obviously not affecting the running.
D.O.

[good finish]

can someone please confirm fact for me.
i have been told that it is impossible to handswing a rotax 912 and therefore puliing the prop is ok?
does anyone agree or disagree with this?

[Deeday]

That would make it rather difficult to start some engines.

I was referring to Rotax engines, which are routinely hand-cranked during the pre-flight checks, to get a meaningful reading of the oil quantity.

good finish, I cannot think of a reason why a warm Rotax, with fuel and mags On should not start if hand-pulled. I'm certainly not going to try!

[FlyingKiwi_73]

every time i preflight any aircraft i have the keys in my hand and know the master is OFF, especially when turning the prop to check the belt.

I always tell my pax to exit rearwards in the briefing. i make a point to make sure the understand this.

While helping to Marshall at the Omaka airshow 2 years ago i saw a chap walking slowly back wards into a live prop while showing another aircraft to its parking slot, all the noise from the other engines plus ear defenders he just didn't notice. luckily another marshall calmly walked over and guided the chap away from the prop, not yelling and pointing, eliminating the natural reaction to turn around. very smart.

[Firewalled]

I was referring to Rotax engines, which are routinely hand-cranked during the pre-flight checks, to get a meaningful reading of the oil quantity.

good finish, I cannot think of a reason why a warm Rotax, with fuel and mags On should not start if hand-pulled. I'm certainly not going to try!

The Rotax don't use traditional mags, they have ignition modules found on the newer cars. For them to produce any spark that has a chance of igniting the engine, you would have to top something like 120rpm by hand...

[Piper.Classique]

every time i preflight any aircraft i have the keys in my hand and know the master is OFF, especially when turning the prop to check the belt.Well, that's a good thing, but remember a broken earth wire on anything with traditional mags means the mag will be live, keys or no keys. I have had an MS 893 180 hp engine start and run in -10 deg C with the mixture lean and the keys in my pocket when pulling through prior to startup. It didn't run for long, but it would have made a nasty mess of my hand if I didn't routinely treat all props as potentially live.:ouch:

[rans6andrew]

one may not need to "pull through" to prime the 912 but one is supposed to hand turn the engine a number of times to "gurgle" the oil system. At least, by stopping the engine by grounding the mags you can be more sure that the mag switches are working. Maybe a mag test at the time the mixture is pulled for "lean cutting" your lyconentals would be a good idea.

It is possible to hand prop a 912. One of the BMAA officers did this on a Skyranger I believe, it jumped, mauled his arm and came to rest in a hedge.

see Is it time to fly yet? • View topic - Hand-Starting ââ (http://www.microlighters.co.za/viewtopic.php?p=4628)

Rans6....

[kevmusic]

Every time I click on this thread I think I'm going to see more posts concerning the poor girl who walked into a propellor.........:rolleyes:

[magpienja]

Seem to remember a young lady walking into the rear prop of a Cessna 337 at Liverpool airport when I was a kid in the 60s.

Nick.

[Redbird72]

The most interesting point for me in this and the previous thread, is that I don't recall any mention of this kind of issue in my training.

Common sense has always dictated to me that I don't exit the aircraft with the prop turning, and as I always accompany non-pilot pax at all times at a field, the issue of passengers near the prop has never been an issue (and I don't let them near it while they're watching me walk-around either).

However, hot changes (and not to do them) were never mentioned during my PPL training, other than the fact that the instructor leaves the aircraft whilst it's running to send students off on solo detail.

Could this leave the less aware new PPL's more open to making this kind of terrible mistake?

[fireflybob]

In the days when prop swinging was common I think pilots were much more aware of the inherent dangers - in fact, you had to be "checked out" on prop swinging - this would not be a "one off" but you might do it several times to the satisfaction of the instructor teaching you before you went "solo".

These days, more often than not, you just press the starter button.

I have discovered that most pilots these days don't even understand what "thumbs up" or "thumbs down" between cockpit and outside means.

There is nothing wrong with "running changes" so long as they have been properly briefed and are well supervised. If not it's just far safer to shutdown rather than take any risks.

At the end of the day, it's the pilots who are responsible for their "passengers" safety.

[Torque Tonight]

This thread is addressing the overall issue of propeller safety awareness rather than solely the accident that sparked the discussion. On that note this report (http://www.aaib.gov.uk/cms_resources.cfm?file=/Beagle%20B121%20Series%201%20Pup,%20G-AXPM%2012-11.pdf), discussed in another thread has some relevance.

Although the accident clearly has a number of causal factors, the single link in the chain that was most within the pilot's power to break, comes down to safe prop handling.

Check, double check and check again, all engine controls, especially the mags before going anywhere near a propeller. Even having done that, treat every prop as live and expect the prop to start on every turn over. Use correct handswinging technique every time you touch a prop, even just for sucking in or the walkaround. I suspect the pilot was very lucky not to be fatally injured in this case.

Props and tail rotors, when running, can often be invisible and inaudible. In certain light conditions the disc simply cannot be seen even if you are looking for it, and with multiple running aircraft on an apron, noise may not provide a specific warning. Passengers ignorant of the risks, distracted and excited, are particularly vulnerable to these risks. I see some horrific bad habits around props on a very regular basis.:eek:

[Gertrude the Wombat]

However, hot changes (and not to do them) were never mentioned during my PPL training, other than the fact that the instructor leaves the aircraft whilst it's running to send students off on solo detail.
My club's flying order book has "no running changes (except instructors getting out)". I've always known I wasn't allowed to do it.

[GeeWhizz]

I tend to agree with a post further back within this discussion, that if my passenger(s) is/are qualified i.e. other pilot(s), I see no reason not to carry out a running change. Unless of course it is stated within Flying Orders that RCs are not permitted.

Except for PPL training purposes (instructor 'bailing' out) I've never done one and it's unlikely that I'll do one soon. That said if I were to carry out a RC I like to think I'd ensure that all passengers were comprehensively briefed and were aware of the dangers, also perhaps even have a trusted and briefed club member escort people to/from the aeroplane. For all of the effort in organising such an operation it would probably be just as easy to shut down. Thus until I'm forced to negotiate a situation like this I may only speculate on what my actions might be.

Edit: On reflection after posting this I considered my behaviour around aeroplanes. I can't recall walking in front of a row of aeroplanes to get to the one I've booked. I must have done it at some point surely! But usually I walk around the rear of the line (possibly an unconscious self preservation mechanism?). Unless it impossible as the aircraft are sometimes parked facing the club house, in which case I can 'see' which aeroplanes are potentially live and can make some kind of eye contact with someone on board.

All tolled these accident's shouldn't be able to happen, but they seem to crop up rather frequently. I wish everyone involved in one of these types of occurrence a successful recovery, including the psychological states of onlookers/witnesses and the pilots, as well as the subject.

[Booglebox]

I've done running changes on Tiger Moths (pax seat at front) and anybody who's been to Duxford on a day when the Tiger / Rapide guys are flying must have seen them happen. The geography of the a/c with the longish nose, steep wing lateral gradient as you are standing on it (so you would fall backwards), the propwash trying to blow you off the wing, and the flying wires in the way, combined with the pilot having his hand on the mag switches and an additional set of mag switches within reach, make it tolerably safe IMO.

I cringe when I see people handling propellers casually, putting arms and necks through the discs on walkarounds, pull aircraft by the blades, curl fingers around the trailing edge when hand-swinging or sucking in, stand or walk too close to props and tail rotors

I agree apart from one thing - pulling a/c by the prop. I have even done this on an a/c that was known to have a live mag. Is this actually very unsafe and am I an idiot? Viewpoints appreciated :E

[Ultra long hauler]

I was referring to Rotax engines, which are routinely hand-cranked during the pre-flight checks, to get a meaningful reading of the oil quantity.

good finish, I cannot think of a reason why a warm Rotax, with fuel and mags On should not start if hand-pulled. I'm certainly not going to try!

At our club we pull the planes around by grabbing it by the the prop!
All our planes are Rotax 912S and 914 powered.

Hand cranking is necessary to get the oil-gurgle.
This is not dangerous with the Master switch off, magnetos off and a cold engine, right? Is it dangerous with a warm engine?

Is it dangerous to move a plane by pulling the prop blades?
Surely not!??

###Ultra Long Hauler###

[rans6andrew]

there is two points to note in this discussion.

1) The Rotax units are all (normally!) equipped with electric starters. Given a decent battery, good heavy cabling and a following wind they will turn over at a good rate and start well. The mags will not even think about creating sparks at the speed used for the "oil gurgle" activity.

2) Many Lyconentals have an impulsing mechanism which is designed to give a good healthy spark at very slow engine rpm and thus enable easier hand prop starting or electric starting if the battery is below par.

So the level of danger at the noisy end is related to the type of engine you have, up to the point that it starts running and then all are dangerous.

Also, I note, a number of posters saying that they always make sure that the master switch is off before venturing near their propellers. Why? the master has absolutely no influence over the ability of the mags to generate sparks or the engine to run. The only difference is that having the master key in your pocket will stop a naughty passenger operating the electric starter.

Rans6.....

[Crash one]

I don't have a key, just master pull on, two mag switches & push to start.

[The Heff]

I agree apart from one thing - pulling a/c by the prop. I have even done this on an a/c that was known to have a live mag. Is this actually very unsafe and am I an idiot? Viewpoints appreciated

Is it dangerous to move a plane by pulling the prop blades?
Surely not!??

I don't think it is dangerous to pull aeroplanes by the prop. Although there is a slight chance that you could accidentally turn the propeller as your pulling, its not likely that you'll turn the blade through the full compression with the required RPM to start the engine.

When I pull, I grasp the leading edges of the propeller, so that if the prop does turn a little bit, it always turns backwards - so there's no chance of it firing (even if live). What are other people's thoughts?

[Torque Tonight]

My thoughts:

You'll probably be fine. Probably. However you could definitely be fine (or as near as dammit) by treating the prop with the discipline that I talked about earlier. By becoming too relaxed about handling props, especially when it is avoidable, you are choosing to leave open a hole in the flight safety swiss cheese that you could easily have filled.

As with many things in flying, it is not the normal average day when you're going to get bitten - it'll be the day when one little, possibly insidious, thing goes wrong and because you haven't pre-empted that risk or left a safety margin, the little problem develops into an accident.

Incidentally with impulse mags you do not really need to generate an RPM to fire the engine. When the mag swings over it will generate sufficient spark even if the prop itself is virtually stationary.

[peterh337]

Sadly I don't think anybody is immune from making this fatal mistake.

I am pretty forgetful myself, and I have a 15 year old aviation-mad son who is more than capable of walking into a prop while dreaming about his latest FPV plane.

[Pull what]

One of the reasons our order book states that running changes and vacating the aircraft with the engine running is not permitted.

[Maoraigh1]

"Also, I note, a number of posters saying that they always make sure that the master switch is off before venturing near their propellers."
I've asked for confirmation the master was off before helping someone by handpropping. It avoids the possibility of mags on with a key going to start.

[aditya104]

I have discovered that most pilots these days don't even understand what "thumbs up" or "thumbs down" between cockpit and outside means.

What do they mean?

[fireflybob]

Thumbs down = Mags off

Thumbs up = Mags on

Used as confirmation from the cockpit to person swinging the propeller.

[mikehallam]

Have a heed it's not so blindingly obvious.

Naturally just like mag switches in a/c being the opposite to most laymen's & therefore 'intuitative' understanding, Thumbs up usually means "O.K."

mike hallam.

[Crash one]

"Also, I note, a number of posters saying that they always make sure that the master switch is off before venturing near their propellers."
I've asked for confirmation the master was off before helping someone by handpropping. It avoids the possibility of mags on with a key going to start.


I beg to differ (my bold) it most certainly does not. If you fly an a/c with magneto ignition you should know that the mags are a seperate spark generating device, completely independent of master switches, batteries, key starters, push button starters, generators, fuses, you name it.:ugh::ugh::ugh:
The mags off switch or key connects the mags to earth making them "safe" if that earth connection is faulty in any way the mags are live.
This is easily proved, Start your engine in the usual manner then switch of the master switch. Did the engine stop? Try popping all the contact breakers, pull fuses.
I always check for "dead cut" by switching of both mags, one at a time, to kill it. No doubt the wrong technique in some cases but the old Stromberg didn't have a mixture control.
I don't like the idea of running the thing at 1000rpm & pulling "Idle cut off" that does not prove that the mags earth works.

[Rod1]

“At our club we pull the planes around by grabbing it by the the prop!
All our planes are Rotax 912S and 914 powered.

Hand cranking is necessary to get the oil-gurgle.
This is not dangerous with the Master switch off, magnetos off and a cold engine, right? Is it dangerous with a warm engine?

Is it dangerous to move a plane by pulling the prop blades?
Surely not!??”

The Rotax 912/914 does not have mags. The Electronics require the crank to be turning at 250 rpm to generate a spark (ref Rotax 912 manual) even if the swiches are on. The Master has no impact on ignition working.

Rod1

[Deeday]

The Electronics require the crank to be turning at 250 rpm to generate a spark A friend of mine, Rotax-owner and self-maintainer, when I asked him about this story, pointed out that with a typical reduction ratio of 2.43:1, the prop only needs a fraction of that rpm, and not even for a full revolution. So my guess is that it's not impossible at all to hand-swing a Rotax.

[VOD80]

I used to have an Auster and didn't mind hand swinging that - nice, long prop high up off the ground and slow revving engine. I hand swung a Pitts S1 at Felthorpe with its tiny, sharp toothpick of a prop down by my knees. Not so much fun.

A little video of it all going wrong:

b-yULvrCNhI

[mikehallam]

Silvaire, as Deeday notes, the Rotax 912 series flat four has a gearbox reduction & the prop position is thus random. Two strokes ditto.

mike hallam.