Looking for Aircraft Replacement & your Opinion

[cheemsaf]

I've been searching for quite sometime, but can not find an aircraft that will replace my Lancair IV (non-P).

My family is growing and we're looking for something as fast or faster and bigger, but without a huge jump in operating costs. To be honest, my better half also doesn't care for wearing an O2 mask for hours on end in a very small cabin. We've looked at anything from a TBM700, MU-2, turbo commander, superstar 700, etc.

Requirements: 1000nm+ w/ IFR reserve, pressurized, 4+ seats, Certified flight into known icing
Want: 300+ KTAS (zero wind), 6+ seats, initial aircraft cost less than $500K
Operating Cost: Currently my hourly cost on the LNC4 is around $190/hr at 100ish hrs/year. I'm looking at trying not to go over doubling the operating cost.
Engine(s): I don't care, single, twin, piston, turboprop, VLJ (but VLJ probably cost prohibitive)

I'm essentially looking for another airline replacement. What are your thoughts?

[IO540]

Within your budget you won't find a turboprop of any sort. Even a used Jetprop will come in c. $1M for a reasonable specimen.

There are some pressurised piston aircraft but you obviously are aware of them. The PA46 is one.

[cheemsaf]

That's exactly why I poised the question...I can't find anything out there and wondering if there is such a beast that exists :)

[500 above]

You don't want much do you!

How about a King Air 90? Not 300 KTS but a lot of aeroplane.

Fits the budget, too.

Beech King Air 90 for sale on AircraftDealer.com (http://www.aircraftdealer.com/aircraft_for_sale/Beech_King_Air_90/67/page-1.htm)

The operating costs you quote seem to be unrealistic, though. Turbine territory...

Good luck.

[AdamFrisch]

You might be able to get a Silver Eagle turboprop. This is essentially a pressurised 210 with the Allison C20 engine. It won't do 300kts or even near that, though. But if you're willing to compromise on top speed to get turboprop it might be a good choice.

If you want blazing speed for not very much money and are willing to live with pistons, I'd get the last Piper Aerostar, the Machen-converted 702P. They'll smoke most turboprops with their 280kts max speed. Pressurised, long range, twin engine safety. Aerostars are also built with twice the thickness on the aluminium skins, so they're as sturdy as they come. There's never been an Aerostar structural failure.

[cheemsaf]

@ 500 Above: HA! Yeah, I know...I guess it's more of a theoretical question, but if there is something out there... Actually, after doing some research it is the warbird era that come closest to the performance (but the cost, ugh). :ugh:


@AdamFrisch: Yes, actually I think Ted Smith's design is probably one of the better options out there. I have some time in the older 600A models, but never flew the Machen conversions. From everything I'm reading the Super 700 series is essentially twice of everything that the Lancair IV has, but at essentially the same speed up high.

[jxc]

'N' reg ?

probably less money but what about velocity aircraft don't they do one that is pressurised ?

Velocity Aircraft (http://www.velocityaircraft.com/airplane-models-txl.html)

Probably save you loads of cash as well

If I am being stupid please tell me

[benppl]

There's something wrong with my life.

[goldeneaglepilot]

Another pilot in search of the Holy Grail's equivalent of an aeroplane.... sadly very hard to find

[AdamFrisch]

It seems to me that a turbine makes much more sense in Europe as it's both cheaper and more available. In the US it's the opposite.

[cheemsaf]

Yeah, tell me about it. It is hard to find. Perhaps I should put my engineering degree to use...Ha!

[500 above]

Adam, out of interest why do you think a turbine is cheaper in Europe? Europe, as you know can in no way be called cheap (in an aviation context) compared to the US.

[Genghis the Engineer]

Yeah, tell me about it. It is hard to find. Perhaps I should put my engineering degree to use...Ha!

Perhaps you should - engineering Figure of Merit / FoM analysis is an excellent way to make any high value complex decision.

I've actually taught this on engineering degree courses - where we used those principles in an exercise to select the right aeroplane for the job (I have a quite nice case study somewhere we put together selecting a utility aeroplane for charity work in East Africa). No reason that you can't do the same to find the right aeroplane for you and your family.

It'll take few days work to do well, with a fair bit of research, determining relative priorities, and so-on, but also quite a lot of fun for an engineer who is also an aviation nut.

G

[AdamFrisch]

500 - cheaper compared to avgas, what was I meant. It's of course not cheap by any means.

But Jet A1 is half the price compared to avgas in Europe. And avgas can't be had readily at all airports. In the US Jet A1 is more expensive than avgas. On pure fuel costs, the case can be made in Europe that a turbine is cheaper to run per hour. That can't be done in the US. There's a reason all the diesel developments are coming from Europe;)

[hum]

Twin Commander Aircraft LLC (http://www.twincommander.com/model.html)

690B probably comes close... one here for example

1978 COMMANDER 690B Turboprop Aircraft For Sale At Controller.com (http://www.controller.com/listingsdetail/aircraft-for-sale/COMMANDER-690B/1978-COMMANDER-690B/1211823.htm?)

Maintenance costs might be the killer though...

[AdamFrisch]

Commanders are a great choice. They're roomy, fast, long range and can get you into fields most turboprops wouldn't dare to even overfly. Just make sure you get the later Garrett dash 10 engines as the early ones are harder to service. The Garrett has greater TBO than any other turboprop, if I'm not mistaken. But it's a big aircraft, so you're hauling a lot of empty seats around and the associated fuel burn.

[Grassfield]

I agree with Adam, the Silver Eagle is a clear contender to your wishlist. Ticks most of criteria but will 'only' do 200-210 ktas. There is one on aso.com for 595k which is almost within your financial criteria. Anything faster ticking the rest of your criteria, like the great Jetprop (caveat for range though), is closer to 1M as IO mentioned. Let us know if you find the holy grail...

[flybymike]

Jet A1 is half the price compared to avgas in Europe. Adam , duty is payable on JetA1 for private use (in the UK at least) which removes much of the cost incentive even for diesel engines let alone jet fuel guzzlers, although as far as I can make out, it is often not declared or paid.

[AdamFrisch]

I did not know that. Wow. Europe, huh?

Well, I have a super secret invention on the go and when that takes over the world, there won't be any possibility to screw people like they have for decades..:ok:

[Desert185]

cheemsaf: Requirements: 1000nm+ w/ IFR reserve, pressurized, 4+ seats, Certified flight into known icing
Want: 300+ KTAS (zero wind), 6+ seats, initial aircraft cost less than $500K
Operating Cost: Currently my hourly cost on the LNC4 is around $190/hr at 100ish hrs/year. I'm looking at trying not to go over doubling the operating cost.
Engine(s): I don't care, single, twin, piston, turboprop, VLJ (but VLJ probably cost prohibitive)


The airplane that will most closely meet your requirements is an MU-2.

[A and C]

Has the MU-2 got a reputation for being shall we say unforgiving?

[500 above]

Adam, have you heard the state of California are trying to ban all Avgas sales? Better get that paraffin budgie!

October 4, 2011, 3:40 PM
After hearing arguments for more than two hours yesterday, a California Federal Judge has postponed until next week any preliminary rulings on a legal actions barring the sale of avgas in the state. In May, the public advocacy group Center for Environmental Health (CEH), citing the hazards of lead emissions, issued Notices of Violation to many California FBOs, fuel distributors and producers under the state law known as Proposition 65, which evaluates and regulates public exposure to hazardous chemicals. Proposition 65 allows a private party, as well as the state, to sue for enforcement in state court. Using it, the environmental group is demanding an immediate cessation of the sale of leaded avgas and the payment of significant financial penalties ranging up to $1.3 billion for each company named in the violations. In response to this potentially crippling litigation, the California Avgas Coalition, an industry group, has filed a motion for an injunction prohibiting the CEH from filing suit over the sale of avgas in the state. The CEH and California’s Attorney General have in turn asked the court to dismiss the motion. According to NATA, which is assisting the Coalition in the matter, the judge has requested additional material from both sides by October 12, and promised to then deliver a ruling on the motion to dismiss.

California Avgas Lawsuit on Temporary Hold | Aviation International News (http://www.ainonline.com/?q=aviation-news/ainalerts/2011-10-04/california-avgas-lawsuit-temporary-hold)

[Dave Gittins]

Sorry off topic but if the worst came to the worst, doesn't that just mean a (expensive) hop over to Nevada or Mehico ? Surely to be effective, they have to ban the possession of Avgas, which would be just plain stoopid.

[lotusexige]

A and C, I get the impression that the MU2 has a bad reputation because it is differnt and has to be flown differently. In addition they were popular with the druggies at one point. An aircraft that could be hauled into the air 50 knots below VMCa, flown by an immortal youngster off a country road at night would probably have pretty bad accident figures even if it behaved like most other twins.

[lotusexige]

Yes, very high wing loading without the flaps. Apparently with the flaps, huge Fowlers, extended it is about the same as a B200.

[mad_jock]

Not that it will be with in the costing required but...


I have always quite liked the Piaggio P.180 Avanti they go like ****e off an extremely shiny shovell.

How much would one of them be?

[cheemsaf]

Thanks all. I've looked at most all of those aircraft in the past & I appreciate your comments on them. Perhaps a turboprop is the way to go looking at the CA tree-huggers who all don't have a degree in common-sense let alone any knowledge of engineering, chemistry, or business. But according to Obama, aircraft owners are the devil and we need to spread their wealth out (put in other words); so maybe flying across the border in my avgas burning plane isn't such a bad idea ;)

& FYI: Jet A is cheaper here in the US than avgas & has been for awhile. Current national Avgas average is $5.82/gal. Current JetA avg is $5.42/gal (unknown if w/prist). Source: AirNav (http://www.airnav.com)

The Avanti is a very cool plane and very economical for it's cost/nm, but with a starting cost of around $5M...those owners must be the devil ;)

Turbo Commander and MU-2 seem to be the best bets, but with high operating costs. Underwriters require their insurance providers to ensure the pilot takes a yearly "certified" flight training in the MU-2, and still charge an arm & a leg. I've looked into that before. I'll look more in depth on the turbo commander.

For those interested, what I have been doing is looking on controller.com or an equivalent website; taking the N-number and plugging it into a flight tracker to see how the plane actually is being flown (distance, speed, altitude, etc). You'd be surprised what you find and makes you 2nd guess the "performace specs" on any given aircraft (both for good and bad).