Round out / flare & other "terms"

[shumway76]

Round out & flare - are they the same thing or do they mean slightly different like in the following sentence :
"During a flapless landing, expect a slightly lesser round out, but during the flare, you can expect to float longer along the runway as your speed decay will be slower".

Also, what about bank & roll?
I came to the conclusion:
- bank is the condition of the aircraft (wings not level with horizon)
- roll is the action of the aircraft when the control wheel is moved left / right - "The aircraft rolls to the right when the control wheel is moved right"; "By moving the control wheel right, you will cause the aircraft to be in a right bank"
Any comments?

[P-MONKE]

At the end of the approach you round out (so you don't make a crater in the airfield) into the flare (holding off the ground as long as possible while your speed decays) until touch down.

Bank and roll are what you describe.

Books are good places to start for the basics ;)
I won't recommend any one in particular because I haven't read any on powered flight and only a few on gliding :)

[24Carrot]

Bank is an angle, measured in degrees. The exact definition is rather complicated, but your description captures the idea.

Technically, 'Roll' is the rate at which you are increasing or decreasing the angle of bank. If you measured it, it would be in units of degrees per second.

[flybymike]

At the end of the approach you round out (so you don't make a crater in the airfield) into the flare (holding off the ground as long as possible
What then is the difference between a flare and a hold off? (Don't say one is an illuminated cartridge gun..)

[patowalker]

To flare is to gradually make wider, so could it refer to the angle of attack?

[P-MONKE]

As I understand it (and, as I said, I'm coming from a glider pilot's perspective), the round out is the transition from the approach glide path to the hold off, which is also known as the flare.

In a glider, the flare is used to fly just a nadge above the ground while excess airspeed, which is required for a safe approach, decays to the point where the wings don't generate enough lift and the aircraft settles gently on the ground. To achieve this, the stick is eased back to increase the angle of attack, compensating for the reducing speed. In my understanding, it is much the same in a powered aircraft. Touching down while still having flying speed is known as "landing on" and is frowned upon in the gliding community. I have heard that some powered aircraft are a bit safer landing on slightly, but the general principle for landing is the same for both classes.

OK, so the approach is steeper in a glider, which is typically 10 degrees, than in a powered aircraft where it is in the order of 3 degrees or so. In both cases though, if the round out is performed too late, there is a danger of flying into the reference point*, hence my reference to making a crater.

*I've done it myself and it wasn't very pleasant, but luckily training gliders are built like the proverbial brick outhouse!

Edit: I've done a little more reading, and it seems that some powered instruction does treat the flare and round out as the same thing. Maybe it's because the approach is steeper in a glider.

[Spit161]

What then is the difference between a flare and a hold off?

Could the word "flare" be describing the way you need to hold the nose up higher to allow the speed to decay. (reference to the AoA like patowalker says.)

cheers,
Jake.

[Grob Queen]

My understanding is that the Flare and Hold off are the same thing as described above. "Flare" is the terminology perferred by my instructor. I used to wonder what one did when they rotated. Assuming that this was not another word for a ground loop, I eventually asked my instructor and was told that it was "the point at which teh aircraft leaves the ground - in other words "Take Off". Now I use "rotate" all the time. Think I must be going native with this pilot speak!:)

[BroomstickPilot]

Hi All,

Let me clear this up once and for all.

When I did my PPL course in 1960, the only term used in the UK was 'round-out'. This described the transition from the approach to the hold-off. Everybody used this same term. However, in the American magazines the term 'flare' was routinely used to describe the same thing.

Subsequently, more and more British pilots went to the USA for their training. These people picked up a lot of American terms and brought them back here. So gradually the word 'flare' began to replace 'round-out'.

A similar situation appurtains with regard to the pronunciation of the word 'altimeter'. We pronounce it Alti-meter, the Americans pronounce it Al-timeter.

So it doen't matter whether you use 'flare' or 'round-out', both are the same thing and both are correct. Although personally, I'm a 'round-out' person myself.

Regards,

BroomstickPilot

[500 above]

Grob Queen

Not quite correct.

VR, or Rotation speed. The speed at which the airplane’s nosewheel leaves the ground.

Taken from this link. V speeds – Velocity-speeds (http://aviationglossary.com/aircraft-terms-definition/v-speeds)

[24Carrot]

I can confirm the American usage from that era.

"So flew Dudley - straight at the Earth ...
it became all too obvious he was frozen on this suicidal track and had no intention of flaring out our glide angle ..."

From "Fate is the Hunter", Ernest K Gann, first published 1961.

Brilliant book, BTW.

[FlyingStone]

VR, or Rotation speed. The speed at which the airplane’s nosewheel leaves the ground.

Taken from this link. V speeds – Velocity-speeds

Since this is another thread for nitpicking, let's be precise. The below definition is from CS-23:

EASA CS 23.51 Take-off speeds
(a) For normal utility and aerobatic category
aeroplanes, the rotation speed VR, is the speed at
which the pilot makes a control input with the
intention of lifting the aeroplane out of contact
with the runway or water surface.

I'm more than sure that somebody with flight testing experience will come along and correct me.

[patowalker]

VR, or Rotation speed. The speed at which the airplane’s nosewheel leaves the ground.You're stuffed if it's a taildragger.

[500 above]

Patowalker - sadly, the days of conventional undercarriages (tailwheel) are all but gone in aviation, with the exception of Buffalo Airways and the like. The term 'rotate' however is still used on those commercial flight decks, as I'm sure you are aware. Rather obviously, the web link posted infers nose wheel aircraft! If I were to air the Chipmunk, Luscombe, Condor, Cap 10 or the like for a bimble around the local area, I would most certainly not be calling V speeds out or filling out TOLD cards... I'll leave that for the aircraft I'm paid to fly professionally.

My point initially was that Grob's instructor has possibly given out incorrect information (or Grob has misunderstood the FI) by stating it's the point at which the aircraft leaves the ground - in other words "take off"... In another thread started by Grob (G force) his instructor had also told him/her it's OK to takeoff with full flaps. Another potential issue or misunderstanding? I quote Grob "However, since I had a CFI check, he said that it was perfectly ok to take off with full flap on a t&g - it measn there is less work required during the ground roll. However, I ahev never really had any issues with this and when I ahev done three solo T&Gs, I brought land flap up to use just t/o flap and was fine."

I've never been an advocate of the term 'rotate' in a light aircraft. However I've always been a believer that tailwheel aircraft produce a better pilot.

[P-MONKE]

Ahhh - I get it now! - so the round out is the flare; the hold off is what you (try to) do until touchdown!

Makes perfect sense to me now. :cool:

[fujii]

Flare - to display conspicuously or ostentatiously. (my landings).
Roundout - How QNH is expressed as a whole number.
Roll - What my wheels do.

[patowalker]

I've never been an advocate of the term 'rotate' in a light aircraft

I agree. Just completed a flight test for a new propeller and one of the checks required was "unstick speed", which suits me fine.

[westhawk]

I've never been an advocate of the term 'rotate' in a light aircraft

If the pitch attitude for liftoff is established early and the airplane allowed to accelerate until it lifts off, then no rotation about the lateral axis was required in order to cause the lift off. If the nose had to be raised in order to cause liftoff, the airplane has been "rotated"!

So much for terminology... :cool:

[Grob Queen]

My point initially was that Grob's instructor has possibly given out incorrect information (or Grob has misunderstood the FI) by stating it's the point at which the aircraft leaves the ground - in other words "take off"... In another thread started by Grob (G force) his instructor had also told him/her it's OK to takeoff with full flaps. Another potential issue or misunderstanding? I quote Grob "However, since I had a CFI check, he said that it was perfectly ok to take off with full flap on a t&g - it measn there is less work required during the ground roll. However, I ahev never really had any issues with this and when I ahev done three solo T&Gs, I brought land flap up to use just t/o flap and was fine."


Guys, I know that most of you here are vastly more experienced than me...but in simple speak, Take off occurs when the aircraft's nosewheel (or all wheels for taildraggers) leaves the ground does it not... Therefore, logic tells me that you are taking off when rotating!

500 above, Do you honestly think RAF QFIs (or any come to that) would give false info to a student? I admit, it may be my misunderstanding, but hes good at explaining issues! And the full flaps issue... It was the club CFI who sat down with my FI and me and said that t&g with full flap is acceptable. Now, as a student, do you REALLY think i would disagree and argue with a well respected CFI who comes with a dazzling reputation and who has flown all types (including the Me109)...?!

Basically though, fellow pilots, terminology is unimportant; is it not the case that so long as we all lift the wheels off the ground when the aircraft is up to the correct speed, we will continue to take our respective machines safely off the ground, clearing all obstacles and enjoying an uneventful flight?!! :)

[500 above]

Grob

Nobody would ever suggest to ANY student to ARGUE with an instructor.

Firstly, a few interesting links for you as a G115 student

http://www.aaib.gov.uk/cms_resources.cfm?file=/dft_avsafety_pdf_500972.pdf

Note on above link, the first stage of flap is referred to as tKeoff flap by the AAIB

Grappling a Grob: key.Aero, General Aviation (http://www.key.aero/view_feature.asp?ID=16&thisSection=general)

The above link is for the 115e as a review by a ga pilot. It mentions the flap settings.

Do I honestly think RAF QFI's or any come to that (your words) would give false info to a student? Simply, yes! It has been known. Ive known a few (civil) when checking them for standardisation myself. I'm not saying that's what's happened here, but the fact of the matter is if it can happen it will happen or has happened! Now, a landing with full flap may be acceptable, but is a takeoff? Are you on the 115e with flap 60, and electrically operated? (check for the 115 go around report where electric flaps malfunctioned)

Lastly, prune is a great resource to all in aviation. It is not a substitute or sitting with an instructor and receiving a long briefing or ground school. Remember - good habits are formed from the beginning. Bad habits are developed, and are harder to drum out!

Anyway, good luck with the PPL.

[Grob Queen]

500,

Thanks for the links and the good luck! I know that Prune is not a substitute for talking things over with my instructor, its like chatting to the guys in the Club, my pilot friends and pilot and Nav colleagues...I just like to get different views!!

Ref use of full flap on a T&G, i'm just as surprised as you all are and wondered whether this was a common phenomena - or just a quirky thing...hence my question "to the floor"!

And its the Grob 115A that I fly...taxis like a Tesco trolley, the slowest powered thing around Lincolnshire airspace, but i love it!:):)

[500 above]

Grob

Change to the Chipmunk! My favourite aircraft of over 50 types flown fixed wing.

As I said before, always trust your instructor. Any issues, take them up with him/her. He sounds like a sound bloke, but please take their word over pprune. Just be aware there are many opinions out here, not all correct and by no means wrong. It's good to get different views, well done for wanting to learn more!

From the G tolerance thread

"I seem to be virtually skimming the hedge at the end of one of our runways when I t/o using full flap"

Please read the Aircraft manuals, then ask any questions to the instructor. He/she should know the aircraft limitations. In all my types flown, takeoff has never been permitted with full flap. That's not to say it is for every type, although I have flown the 115...

I see from another post that you've already had a 'prang'. How did that happen?

All the best mate, pm me if you need any further clarification.

[Grob Queen]

500,

Ahhhh, the Chippy...if only I could!!! Flew my first Airex in a Chippy and had control for my first two landings and aeros.

Yep, my instructor is a great chap, we gert on well...although I think he must get extremely frustrated with me sometimes!

I have already pranged....but i think i'll start a new thread and see what others have done too...

[500 above]

The Chippy is indeed a fantastic aircraft. Many a happy flight in her.

Have you found the Grob's scheduled performance data in the flight manual for a takeoff with full flap yet? ;)

[The500man]

Just completed a flight test for a new propeller and one of the checks required was "unstick speed", which suits me fine.


Pressumably Vmu is a non-event for a taildragger?


Here's another pprune thread about Vr, Vlof, and Vmu

http://www.pprune.org/tech-log/443294-vlof-vmu-vr.html

[500 above]

Now I think you will really confuse the poor guy! Grob, concentrate on the basics (AFM) and the theory of flight, writtens etc. Don't get too deep into Vmu, Vlof... That's not PPL theory.

[Pull what]

When I did my PPL course in 1960, the only term used in the UK was 'round-out'.The term flare was in use before the 60s. In 1954 the Blind Flying Unit at Bedford started a research programe which lead to the eventual development of autoland. This was originally called AUTOFLARE as it only took the pilot to the flare (Hold Off). In 1960 when BOAC ordered the VC10 they specified the new AUTOFLARE. By the time the Tridents were introduced there was a full autoland system with autothrottle.

Flare, as I understand, originated from the term Flareline lighting (later flarepath lighting when used with defined runways). The pilot needed oil flare lighting to be able to see the runway and flare. Runway lighting today is still referred to as flarepath landing.

[foxmoth]

Take off occurs when the aircraft's nosewheel (or all wheels for taildraggers) leaves the ground does it not... Therefore, logic tells me that you are taking off when rotating!

Not necessarily, certainly in large aircraft you rotate, this brings the nosewheel up, but the mains may remain on the deck for a time after you have rotated and reached the correct TO attitude.

[Pull what]

Not necessarily, certainly in large aircraft you rotate, this brings the nosewheel up, but the mains may remain on the deck for a time after you have rotated and reached the correct TO attitude.
Quite correct-rotate and lift off are not the same things and the best proof of that was the Tenerife disaster where the commander rotated before Vr

[Pilot DAR]

If we're defining "take off" too here, would it not be the point at which the aircraft is supported by the wings rather than the landing gear?

I would presume that an aircraft has landed, when the weight is no longer wholly supported by the wings (and it is in contact, at the intended point, with the earth's surface). The nose or tailwheel could be held off for some time after that, but the landing has occurred. The takeoff would be the reverse.... Right?

[Ds3]

I would have thought these terms were pretty clear, even to a beginner like me! My understanding would be;

Rotate - point at which the angle of the plane changes from parallel to the runway to a 'nose up' attitude. This may or may not result in immediate 'lift off'.

Lift off - point at which all physical contact with the runway has ceased.

Round out / flare - same thing, both the point at which you alter your approach to the runway to prevent immediate impact.

Hold off - what happens after the 'flare' to prevent the aircraft setting down until the optimum speed is achieved.

Landing - point at which the aircraft makes contact with the runway after 'hold off' has occured.