Instrument Approaches - Where?

[Yellow Son]

In a separate thread, I have explored the problem of getting Instrument Approaches at MOD airfields at an affordable cost. Short answer is I can't.

So what have other Pruners found to be a reasonable way of flying instrument approaches without a second mortgage? I fly from Goodwood, so it seems to be Shoreham or nothing, but I'm not ready to give up just yet.

[I Love Flying]

I have heard that if you want to practice multiple ILS approaches, it is cost-effective to fly to Cherbourg from the South Coast and do them there. Apparently the savings made pretty much cover the cost of the fuel to get there. Plus Luc and Edith are always ready with a warm welcome for visitors....

[cessnapete]

And Calais! A year ago, all day there with HS125 about £100 for unlimited approaches. (A good restaurant as well)

[A and C]

I have to agree with the people who say go to France, it would seem that UK airfields would prefer 100% of nothing rather that a small slice of the action between the other traffic.

It makes me wonder if putting the ILS from Plymouth or Fliton on one of old gun towers in the Thames estuary would provide inexpensive training for IR students?

[Avionyx]

I have heard many good things about using Cherbourg, many of my friends have done exactly that and been very pleased with the value for money - nice trip too!

[Gertrude the Wombat]

0p per approach at Cambridge if you're using a club aircraft. Don't other places do that?

[Genghis the Engineer]

- When flying VFR to anywhere with an approach, ask for a straight in, and fly the approach anyhow. Just don't press the button when making the radio calls!

- Pick a convenient VOR or NDB somewhere that won't annoy anybody and set up your own fake approach onto an imaginary airfield.

- If you have a KNS80 on board, set up a VOR approach onto a disused airfield somewhere.

And needless to say - remember you're VFR and see-and-avoid is still the game in all such cases.


Apart from that, spend £100 or so on a PC sim system designed for instrument practice.

G

[007helicopter]

Confirm Calais multiple approaches and just the landing fee about 11 euros, they also have GPS approaches so a very good option with the restaurant now for refreshemnt.

[007helicopter]

When flying VFR to anywhere with an approach, ask for a straight in, and fly the approach anyhow. Just don't press the button when making the radio calls!

Why not just ask for the full procedure or vectors to the ILS, I have not been charged any nore for this and have recently done exactly that at Filton, Newcastle, Birmingham and Norwich where I had to go anyway and am not aware charged any more than a normal VFR landing.

[Genghis the Engineer]

Why not just ask for the full procedure or vectors to the ILS, I have not been charged any nore for this and have recently done exactly that at Filton, Newcastle, Birmingham and Norwich where I had to go anyway and am not aware charged any more than a normal VFR landing.

Worth checking, at Cranfield (where I keep a share) it's another £17.50 (or £24 if you are a Bonus student :mad:).

G

[Whopity]

Pick a convenient VOR or NDB somewhere that won't annoy anybody and set up your own fake approach onto an imaginary airfield.How do you know it won't annoy anybody? All surplus NDBs and VORs have been decommissioned with a reduction to just 17 VORs planned. Concentrating training aircraft over such aids is a recipe for an Airprox if not a Mid Air.

It might explain why some candidates for the IMC test have no idea how to fly an approach into an airfield or how to make the associated RT calls.

[Yellow Son]

"It might explain why some candidates for the IMC test have no idea how to fly an approach into an airfield or how to make the associated RT calls."


I assume Whopity has some evidence for this assertion, but it has nothing to do with what I was asking, or the sensible suggestions from Ghengis. Candidates who "have no idea" have been badly taught, end of story.

I'm not talking about getting an IMC rating, I'm concerned with getting enough practice to keep it valid now I have it.

[Yellow Son]

To Ghengis the Engineer. Thanks, all sound advice. I don't have a KNS80, and wouldn't know one if it fell on me, but I do fly a C172 with Garmin G1000 which has that kind of capability.

I have lots of software, and value it highly, but after 50 years flying I still find things get a little harder when there's engine noise but no pause button!

[Fuji Abound]

I think, but could be wrong, that Whopity was simply lementing how much more difficult it is for instrument rated pilots to remain current these days.

Flying planned approaches (particularly in the UK) has become more costly and difficult. Schools have for long used VORs for all sorts of instrument work and the demise of many VORs will only result in greater honey pot activity often OCAS and therefore without radar cover.

It certainly makes sense to request an instrument approach whenever you travel away if one is available - often these do not attract additional charges although there are some places that do charge if the approach is in anything like VMC.

[Whopity]

Candidates who "have no idea" have been badly taught, end of story.The ones I am referring to, were taught a long time ago! I have been asked to test numerous IMC rating holders who, despite having held the rating for a number of years, and completed a number of revalidations, have obviously never flown an approach to an airfield because they were taught, and most likely tested over an en-route aid! Until they can demonstrate an approach at an airfield, they don't pass! It is as Fuji says getting more difficult to find an airfield to conduct the test correctly.

[IO540]

IMHO it is not hard to find somewhere with an IAP. What is hard is find one which is "cheap".

You can fly an ILS at Lydd for about £18. Is that too much? I don't think so; one might burn £50-£100 in fuel getting there, so I don't see the big deal.

Flying is not the most expensive hobby one could have, but it isn't dirt cheap either.

IFR capability is also not cheap and never has been. A piece of IFR avionics might cost £3000 to replace.

[proudprivate]

- When flying VFR to anywhere with an approach, ask for a straight in, and fly the approach anyhow. Just don't press the button when making the radio calls!


Wouldn't that upset ATC (not to mention being dangerous as it might disrupt inbound traffic) ? Intercepting an ILS as opposed to a true straight in is one thing, flying a procedure NDB might put you 8 miles from the airport...

Also, and in relation to your second and third suggestion :


- Pick a convenient VOR or NDB somewhere that won't annoy anybody and set up your own fake approach onto an imaginary airfield.

- If you have a KNS80 on board, set up a VOR approach onto a disused airfield somewhere.


does that help you to stay current ? i.e. if you say you go for a straight in and you de facto fly an ILS; or if you DIY a VOR "approach" into a disused airfield, could you legally log that as an instrument approach ? If you could, then a safer way could be to pick an enroute VOR, and fly an approach at "real altitudes + X" (this was Barry Schiff's recommendation in AOPA Magazine a couple of years back).

The cheapest way by far to stay current I know of is to use an instructor and a flight training device (if you compare it to £100 in fuel and maintenance to get there, and then another £100 to fly 6 approaches and another £100 to fly back; £18 per approach at Lydd, or £18 for the first one and the rest on the house, like at many French municipals ?).

Also, I think it's good practice to systematically fly the instrument approach if you go somewhere. In fact, unless I'm really in a hurry, I always decline a straight in for a procedural instrument approach. After all, us private pilots don't do 300 hours a year, so you do your best to stay instrument current whenever you have the occasion. Same thing for night currency by the way : but with noise abatement rules that has become even trickier of late...


And needless to say - remember you're VFR and see-and-avoid is still the game in all such cases.


hear hear... (or fly with a RHS pilot friend who plays the game for you)

For just practicing while studying for the instrument rating, I found FS very helpful, not to get impatient with the needles when there is a crosswind, for instance. It's also useful to prepare particularly complicated procedures (such as the now defunct VOR-A approach into Reims Prunay; or mountainous airfields like Annecy (LFLP) that specifically require it for commercial operators)

from French AIP:

OPERATIONAL REQUIREMENTS, FOR FOREIGN OR NATIONAL COMMERCIAL
OPERATORS
Reconnaissance of the airport terrain or training in a flight simulator provided
with a special optic layout approved for that purpose is mandatory for
pilots in command. Reconnaissance must cover all procedures of the airport
intended to be used by the operator. Failure to comply with it will result
in each approach and take-off to be carried out by day only at raised
minima of 3000 ft ceiling and 5000 m visibility.

[Fuji Abound]

As io says flying aint cheap, there is a fact, but, cost is relative. At many uk airports the cost of half a dozen approaches adds up whereas in france it adds up to a lot less. Its a straw that brakes the camels back and a reason why private pilots are just that little bit less current.

As to approaches in general my philosphy is that if at are good enough to accomodate you fitting you into the flow is their concern and as good training for them as us. I have yet to have a problem and more often than not suspect they "enjoy" fitting a little ga traffic in with everyone else. Ask many places for a sar and you can almost see the smile over the radio, we enjoy it dont we and so does the controller?

As to mfs its a pretty good tool but after a while it nevers seems quite the same as a real approach in real weather but perhaps thats because i hate real weather, but for some reason it never bothers me on or in a sim.

[IO540]

One should take every opportunity to fly an instrument approach, even on a clear day.

Most airports don't change extra for it. Cranfield at £30 is one obscene exception but they don't want visitors; they have the FTO business.

If you want to bang a whole load of approaches, go to France.

[Yellow Son]

Well, I am grateful for the large amount of feedback to my original question. It has not only given me some ideas, it has stimulated quite a lot of discussion and exposed some different views.

The bottom line for me is that I recognise the need to keep myself in practice, in Instrument Approaches as much as every other skill. Of course, I do expect to pay for the use of facilities, I just don't want to donate an arm and a leg if there is an alternative. It seems that I may be in an unlucky minority compared with many of those responding. My home airfield has no Instrument Approach facilities of any kind (despite having its 'own' NDB), so I am obliged to go elsewhere to practise. As to why my club chose to re-equip with such a high-spec avionics fit, you may well ask!

Only 3 airfields are within reasonable distance. Southampton is a busy commercial operation that doesn't want GA. Shoreham has no ILS or radar. RAF Odiham is ideal but charges almost £70 for a single approach without landing. Lydd is probably the next most 'convenient', but at 60 miles each way 'convenient' isn't a description that springs to mind.

So I guess I'll use Shoreham to keep my hand in with NDB and RNAV, and resign myself to practising ILS using software, until I have a reason to go somewhere that has SRA, PAR or ILS.

A minor side-issue that has cropped up during my casting about has been the difficulty in finding out what fees are charged in practice. Leaving aside the complete impenetrability of the MOD system, I have failed to get definite figures from websites such as Bournemouth, Oxford and Lydd. Have others found it easier just to enquire by telephone, or is it just me?

[The Grim EPR]

As a suggestion, you could set up your own user waypoint in the G1000 and use a combination of VNAV required profile and OBS to simulate a GPS approach / ILS. It's not as good as the real thing, but this way it's possible to pick a point in the middle of nowhere at say 4000ft and treat that point as the 'runway'.

Garmin inhibit the vertical guidance below 500ft I think (to stop you using it into a grass strip somewhere), but setting the target 'ground' at 4000ft would work around this problem.

You can also practice holds in a similar way (although obviously without the whole VNAV bit).

Bournemouth charge £32.34 ex VAT for each approach in an SR22, but I think that there is a price break at 1500KGS which the SR22 just exceeds.

As others have suggested, perhaps it might be worth using a club aircraft somewhere. I fly from Bournemouth Flying Club, where all landings and approaches are included in the rental price. They have two G1000 equipped DA40s and most other aircraft have at least a G430 in them.

[proudprivate]

I have failed to get definite figures from websites such as Bournemouth, Oxford and Lydd. Have others found it easier just to enquire by telephone, or is it just me?


A bit off thread, but here goes...

Airports that properly display approach and landing fee and other information are more the exception than the rule. Even when the landing fee is mentioned, the bottom line of actually landing and parking there is garbled by a myriad of handling charges, fees, etc... that would take forever to properly work out (beware of the pink underpants levy on page 13 and the nudge and wink flight training discount on page 28).

Best thing is to make two phone calls : one to the airport operator, so that you know what to expect when adding up all the garbage; and one to a resident flying club, as membership of a resident club (or using a club aircraft) often leads to substantial discounts (cf. remarks by The Grim EPR).

To know the order of magnitude (for cross country flight planning), there are various websites that post pilot experiences that might give a good enough indication to avoid stupid mistakes (like landing at Norwich, La Môle or on Elba for a fuel stop).

Coming back to the use of flight training devices, if you don't have access to one at your flying club or FTO, I believe good second hand ones are on the market for £5000 or even less (£1000-£1500 ?) if you settle for an old ATC-610 without the screens. It doesn't take a lot of sharing friends then to make it a worthwile investment and helps to avoid situations where [UK] private pilots are just that little bit less current.

[IO540]

It is indeed hard to get pricing up front.

Not because they are trying to conceal it but because most airports are incredibly disorganised and are hanging together only because some essential people know what they are doing and turn up for work each day. Generating new business is not anybody's job... an airport is for planes to land, get unloaded, etc, and "business development" is a totally alien concept in most cases in Europe.

If you want the cheapest deal, fly "to the aeroclub" but obviously you will need to pre-arrange parking with them.

The next cheapest deal is usually avoiding handling, so contact Operations and try to get pricing out of them. This is the part for which pricing is often hard to find out up front.

Often, "handling" of some sort cannot be avoided, but the handling agent is usually very switched on when it comes to raking money in, so they will be very businesslike :) If you don't have time to waste, are not fussy about costs, and want a sure deal on everything, always go via a handling agent. That's how the big boys do it and they do it for a good reason. At many foreign airports, the handling agents are the only people in the whole place who can correspond in English.

[tmmorris]

If you're talking about maintaining currency on an IMCR, it depends a bit what your normal sort of flying is.

Most of my trips are to somewhere for coffee/tea and then home. I'm lucky in that my home field has an ILS which is free to me (though evidently not to all). However, if you go somewhere with IAPs and actually land off the approach, most will not charge you separately. I frequently do this at Gloucester (GPS, NDB or SRA), Cambridge (ILS or NDB), Oxford (ditto) (check weekend vs weekday pricing though), and I believe you can do it at Coventry (ILS or NDB? check the AIP!). The first three are not cheap (landings are £20 or so) but it's not bank-breaking.

Tim

[CJ Driver]

I also have the luxury of not paying for home-base instrument approaches, but would also endorse two other comments made.

Firstly, if you are going to land somewhere that happens to have an ILS, it is good use of resources to always tune in the ILS, even on a nice VFR day. In our commercial operation it was required procedure - it makes it very difficult to land on the wrong runway when the ILS is pointing somewhere else! Although you are doing a visual approach, it is good fun to practice nailing the needles, and gives you a very useful preview of the "sight picture" you would see if you were doing it for real.

Secondly, I may have been under-billed, but at a couple of places mentioned I have done an ILS approach "for real" and not been charged. For example, Bournemouth is mentioned as charging £32 for a "practice approach". In my recent experience, if you file an IFR flight plan to Bournemouth and land off the ILS approach, you pay only a normal landing fee. So, it appears that if you want to keep current, the best idea is to actually go there and land, IFR. Don't tell them you are "practicing"!

YMMV.

[galaxy flyer]

Casual observer--you PAY for instrument approaches? Isn't that what taxes are for, to pay for infrastructure? Just like roads and crosswalks. Astounding!

GF

[Sir George Cayley]

Big difference in the UK is that no tax dollars fund airport improvements like Part 139 in FAA land does.

Little fields don't charge because they have nothing to charge for - yet:hmm:

SGC

[WorkingHard]

Yes and all military airfields are already paid for by us (the taxpayer) and yet charge an arm and a leg for even using the ILS for practise even though they may have only 2 or 3 movements per day. Only in Britain!!!

[VMC-on-top]

I have an IMCR and have never been charged for an ILS - could that be because I fly VFR? - and is that the same everywhere?

I'm quite surprised that any airport charges for an ILS - whats the rationale behind that? - Poor vis, so we'll charge you for getting in safely!?

[Yellow Son]

I have an IMCR and have never been charged for an ILS - could that be because I fly VFR? - and is that the same everywhere?

Wow! No, it certainly isn't the same everywhere - please tell me, where is this wonderful place?

I'm quite surprised that any airport charges for an ILS - whats the rationale behind that? - Poor vis, so we'll charge you for getting in safely!?

I can't speak for the operators, but it seems reasonable to impose some knd of fee to help maintain the equipment, which surely can't be cheap, and provide the ATC infrastructure. As for 'poor vis', I've heard on the grapevine (but can't confirm chapter and verse) that at many airfields you won't be charged if you have a genuine difficulty - as distinct from a 'should-have-been-predicted' weather problem.

[VMC-on-top]

Wow! No, it certainly isn't the same everywhere - please tell me, where is this wonderful place?

A few actually, the ones that spring to mind are Newcastle (my home field) and Hawarden

it seems reasonable to impose some knd of fee to help maintain the equipment, which surely can't be cheap, and provide the ATC infrastructure. As for 'poor vis', I've heard on the grapevine (but can't confirm chapter and verse) that at many airfields you won't be charged if you have a genuine difficulty - as distinct from a 'should-have-been-predicted' weather problem.

I accept charging some sort of fee but it would make more sense for the airport to add the cost of maintenance on to landing fees - after all, its just another piece of airport hardware?

they won't charge you "if you have a genuine difficulty" I would like to see that in writing somewhere -and what is a genuine difficulty? Flying VFR to somewhere and needing the ILS to get in safely? - surely that's every (VFR) ILS approach then isn't it?

[SilentHandover]

John,

How about Farnborough for an ILS, they are usually available on an opportunity basis any time Monday to Friday between 10 and 4. They are subject to there being a suitable gap in the traffic that is paying for the service but the controllers there are usually happy to accept. Even more so if you offer to do an SRA for their benefit too. If LARS frequency is not extremely busy make a request with them and if they think it is possible they'll transfer you to approach. Alternatively call approach direct if not receiving a LARS service. Several pilots used to call the unit first of all to see if there were any big gaps in the planned traffic for they day but be prepared that there may be a delay due to the nature of the traffic using Farnborough.

[Yellow Son]

Now that's what I call a useful suggestion, Silent H! Many thanks to you - and to all the others who have chipped in.

Looking out of the window, today exemplifies one of the reasons why I wanted the IMC Rating in the first place; though it's so bad at the moment that I wouldn't be allowed to take off in the first place.

[I Love Flying]

Just to update this thread.:)

I flew to Cherbourg on Friday for the first time with my instructor to practice ILS and NDB approaches. For 3 x ILS approaches, 2 x NDB plus landing fee, I paid the princely sum of €28. That went a long way towards the cost of flying there and back, so is worth considering. Plus there is the duty drawback benefit too, and the option to bring back cheap plonk!:D

[I Love Flying]

I should also mention that SilentHandover is absolutely correct about Farnborough. Earlier last week, I was able to do a *FREE* ILS and SRA approach with my instructor. It was my first experience of both approaches and tremendous fun.:D It wasn't booked, we just called up on the radio as soon as we could and asked if we could. So I was told, if you exchange an ILS for an SRA for the controllers' benefit, you are more likely to get a yes to your request.:D