ICAO to JAR?

[B777 Pilot]

What is the procedure to convert from a ICAO CPL to a JAR CPL?

Thanks for the help

[Genghis the Engineer]

LASORS: LASORS 2010 | Publications | CAA (http://www.caa.co.uk/application.aspx?catid=33&pagetype=65&appid=11&mode=detail&id=1591)

G

[S-Works]

In a nutshell. The CPL/IR or ATPL exams (depending on the direction you want to go), prescribed training and flight tests for CPL and IR.

The reference you are looking for is in JAR FCL1 under licence conversion. If you look in the appendix it will give you the experience credits as well.

If you are looking to do it in the UK the LASORS is a handy guide but is full of errors and is not the actual regulation (just our CAA interpretation)which is currently JAR FCL and will be EASA Part FCL from April next year.

[Balticsea]

I'm contemplating of doing a FIC in the US, but should I decide for an FAA course, how's the procedure of converting it into a JAA? Was studying LASORS and as far as I could understand, converting would only consist of a check ride, could this be true?! :confused:

[mcgoo]

No, to convert an FAA CFI to a JAA you will get a reduction of the theoretical course from 125 hours down to 30 and the flying hours from 30 down to 15, then do the test.

[sapperkenno]

No, to convert an FAA CFI to a JAA you will get a reduction of the theoretical course from 125 hours down to 30 and the flying hours from 30 down to 15, then do the test

...And also for the "theoretical knowledge" aspect, pass either the JAA CPL, or JAA ATPL written exams.

As already pointed out by Bose-X above, which I only just noticed

[Whopity]

And will this route still exist under EASA? Its a UK interpretation taken from App1 to JAR-FCL 1.300!

[BillieBob]

And will this route still exist under EASA?Apparently it will, Article 7 of the Cover Regulation states:

"Applicants for Part–FCL licences and associated ratings or certificates already holding at least an equivalent licence issued in accordance with ICAO Annex 1 by a third country shall meet all the requirements of Part–FCL, except that the requirements of course duration, number of lessons and specific training hours may be reduced.

The credit given to the applicant shall be determined by the competent authority of the Member State to which the pilot applies on the basis of a recommendation from an approved training organisation."

In fact, the credits could be even greater than they are under JAR-FCL if an ATO so recommends and the Authority agrees.

[KAG]

ICAO to JAR? You really have to be more accurate: JAR IS ICAO.
Only pilots have such a vocabulary problem. It is ridiculous, something has to be done.

[KAG]

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Only Dominica, Liechtenstein, Niue, Tuvalu, Vatican City and the states with limited recognition are not ICAO, so any pilot licence you have heard about is ICAO.

[Whopity]

so any pilot licence you have heard about is ICAO.Not entirely true, a number of ICAO States have non-ICAO licences e.g. the UK NPPL, UK PPL Microlight and the proposed EASA LAPLs!

[KAG]

Sorry about that, I should rephrase: basically any CPL (that's what we are talking about here right?) licence you have heard about is ICAO.

So if you want to convert a FAA (or transport Canada's?) CPL licence into a JAA one, just say so. ALL ARE ICAO.



Jet? No turbofan.
Line training? No pay to work.
Frozen ATPL? No CPL.
ICAO CPL? It means absolutely nothing, as there is no non-ICAO CPL on earth. Maybe an exception somewhere somebody will be proud to find, but not even sure.
Vocabulary has to be accurate in our profession, and it's clearly not.

[737-NG]

You gotta love KAG's posts.

[Whopity]

as there is no non-ICAO CPL on earthUK (Restricted) BCPL if you want to be accurate!

[Genghis the Engineer]

UK (Restricted) BCPL if you want to be accurate!

Not the UK, but I seem to recall a microlight CPL somewhere or other. I doubt that is ICAO compliant.

G

[KAG]

UK (Restricted) BCPL if you want to be accurate!
Great: you found the exception I was talking about!

But honestly, even if I am not 100% sure because I don't want to double check, I think you are confused. I think you mean the UK (restricted) BCPL is not EASA (JAA?), but is definitely ICAO (if it is UK, it is automatically ICAO, UK being, of course, a ICAO member).
That's only my feeling, I didn't check and I have no references about this UK Restricted BCPL.

Cheers.



Not the UK, but I seem to recall a microlight CPL somewhere or other. I doubt that is ICAO compliant.Micro-light operations are not regulated by ICAO.

[Whopity]

I think you are confused.The UK BCPL(Restricted) has the status of an ICAO PPL but permits the holder, who has not passed any CPL examinations, to be remunerated whilst working solely within a club for the purpose of giving flying instruction to members, or to conduct parachute dropping within a club. The BCPL(R) does not permit any other activities outside of a club and is not ICAO compliant, hence the JAA and EASA do not recognise it.

It was a freebie issued to aeroplane PPL Instructors to get around a change in the law when it became illegal to be remunerated as a PPL holder.

[BillieBob]

Just because a country is a member state of ICAO does not mean that all of its licences are ICAO-compliant (i.e. issued in accordance with ICAO Annex 1). Apart from the obvious examples (UK NPPL, French Brevet de Base, US Recreational Pilot Certificate, EASA LAPL), the Australian ATPL(H) is not issued in accordance with ICAO Annex 1. However, as Australia has filed a formal difference, everyone else seems to accept it. By the same token, a licence issued by a non-ICAO state might well be ICAO compliant.

[KAG]

Ok Whopity, so you did find the CPL exception!
Congratulations! ;)

[IO540]

Apparently it will, Article 7 of the Cover Regulation states:

"Applicants for Part–FCL licences and associated ratings or certificates already holding at least an equivalent licence issued in accordance with ICAO Annex 1 by a third country shall meet all the requirements of Part–FCL, except that the requirements of course duration, number of lessons and specific training hours may be reduced.

The credit given to the applicant shall be determined by the competent authority of the Member State to which the pilot applies on the basis of a recommendation from an approved training organisation."

In fact, the credits could be even greater than they are under JAR-FCL if an ATO so recommends and the Authority agrees.How would that sit in the context of converting an FAA CPL/IR?

EASA appears to offer no way out of the 14 exams.

Surely converting just a CPL is a chocolate teapot.

If this is the full story, all it will take is just one EU country to offer a lenient acceptance and the whole conversion business will just pile in there. 5000 euros? Cheap at twice the price, Sir! Ryanair flies pretty cheaply to some places in the Balkans :)

I can't wait.

[BillieBob]

How would that sit in the context of converting an FAA CPL/IR?Precisely as stated - course length, number of lessons and training hours may be reduced but an applicant must meet all of the requirements, including passing the theoretical knowledge examinations. Pretty much as it is now, in fact (except that a JAA licence and rating is not currently required to fly a non-JAA registered aircraft, of course)

[IO540]

Any news on the 15hr IR conversion concession lasting beyond April 2012? For example will it align with UK's April 2014 derogation?

[BillieBob]

The derogations apply only in specific areas, such as the validity of national licences and ratings for use in EASA aeroplanes and the compliance of existing approved organisations and registered facilities with Part-FCL requirements. However, Article 7 will apply to instrument ratings just as it does to all other licences and ratings and so you should be able to gain credit for a third country IR, at least in terms of training hours. Rather than being a set figure, any credit will depend upon a recommendation to the competent authority from the ATO that will conduct the training.

[IO540]

Presumably this suggests that the UK CAA will be amenable to an ATO "suggesting" that the 15hr conversion route is continued.

OTOH the ATO has no commercial interest in such a concession; they will make a lot more money from 50hrs than from 15hrs.

OTOH, any other EU country will be usable for an IR, just like at present. So it will take just one country to offer say a 10hr conversion. We shall see...

[BillieBob]

It is not a case of the CAA 'being amenable', they have no choice but to comply - it's the law. Come the revolution, the CAA loses all of its flexibility and much of its authority.

What you have identified is 'regulatory tourism', something that EASA assured us would not happen and proves just how little they understand about the European flight training industry. Under the EU regulations, it will be possible to undertake a theoretical knowledge course in one country, take the exams in a second, undertake flight training in a third and take the skill test in a fourth and then have the licence or rating issued by a fifth. Oh, and the medical can be obtained in a sixth.

The only restrictions are that all of the theoretical knowledge exams must be taken in one country and that the competent authority that issues the licence or rating must hold the medical and licensing records. All that this ludicrous, politically driven exercise will ensure is that only the cheapest training providers and the examiners who set the lowest standards will survive.