Radar service.

[cirrusdancer]

During a very pleasant flight over the Yorkshire Dales I requested a transit through Leeds CTR. The nice controller gave me transit but once I entered the zone he advised me that it was "radar service". I'm not 100% sure what this means for a VFR flight, can someone enlighten me ?

Also, once I was outside his zones he told me to freecall London FIS. I'd expected to stay with him for the duration of my flight so I wasn't expecting this. Did he just want me out of his way do you think ?

[englishal]

Radar Control Service...i.e. you fly what headings and altitudes (s)he tells you to.

Some zones don't offer a LARS (Solent for example) so once clear of their zone they like to dump you onto someone else.

[aluminium persuader]

Pretty much what he said!

Within controlled airspace, the only service available is radar (or sometimes procedural) control, and the clearance usually comes in the form of "cleared from a to b via c, at/not above xxx feet".

LARS is only provided by LARS units (a list and diagram is in the AIP and in the RAF BINA), the units being military or being subsidised by the state to provide the service. Other units will usually provide a similar service beyond their airspace boundaries, subject to controller workload.

The controller may have said squawk 7000, freecall London Info, but there is nothing to stop you from calling a different unit (eg the next suitable), or indeed from saying "I'd like to remain with you for the next xx miles (or until a place)" etc. Just bear in mind how busy the freq is if you ask!

ap:ok:

[DeeCee]

With respect I suggest that you get an Instructor to talk you through the various service options and who you should be speaking to.

[soaringhigh650]

Radar Control Service...i.e. you fly what headings and altitudes (s)he tells you to.

Yeah. It's pretty easy. Just follow the headings and altitudes given to you, and maintain VFR at the same time. This means you should tell the controller as early as possible if the instruction is going to take you into cloud so he/she can plan an alternative route for you.

Also, once I was outside his zones he told me to freecall London FIS. I'd expected to stay with him for the duration of my flight so I wasn't expecting this. Did he just want me out of his way do you think ?

Once you've left the sector you'll be passed onto someone else who covers the adjacent sector. This is normal.

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

<<Once you've left the sector you'll be passed onto someone else who covers the adjacent sector. This is normal. >>

If the aircraft is leaving a control zone, below controlled airspace there won't be an "adjacent sector" so pilots are usually given a conspicuity code and told they are cleared to leave the frequency. ATC may not necessarily liaise the flight with another unit in these circumstances.

[cirrusdancer]

Thanks for the helpful replies, all is clear now.
It as the 'radar service' that confused me a little as I thought that was IFR only. I thought accepting it could mean that the controller directing me into IMC conditions.
The controller did exactly what AP said and I didn't argue, it was just a little unexpected and the freq wasn't busy. Knowing my route he knew I'd be well outside his zone and probably just wanted rid of me.

All good experience building on the theory, and a pleasant flight.

DeeCee - good advice but I won't be able to for a while and wanted to clarify things while it's still fresh in my mind.

[soaringhigh650]

It was the 'radar service' that confused me a little as I thought that was IFR only.

Controllers (at least in the US anyway) use the phrase "Maintain VFR" to avoid ambiguity.

It serves as a useful reminder to pilots not to blindly follow instructions without thinking where it'll take you.

[flybymike]

Knowing my route he knew I'd be well outside his zone and probably just wanted rid of me.


Having flown out of Leeds for the past 28 years I have to admit to a degree of irritation at the speed with which they like to dump traffic onto someone else just as soon as one leaves the zone, even when they are not particularly busy and even when all that is requested is a basic service for a bimble in the local area, which essentially obliges the controller to do little or nothing extra in terms of workload. For local flights they will normally pass you off to Linton, Leeming, or Warton for LARS, but I have never been offered London info unless routing North West towards say Carlisle.

[BEXIL160]

Radar Control Service....

So why, when I transit the Lyneham or Brize class D, do the mil insist on telling me to maintain VMC, rather than utter the words "Radar Control Service" as Solent etc do ?

BEX :confused:

[Whopity]

Because they are Military controllers who use different procedures. These were originally Special Rules Zones that were changed to the civil designation of Class D airspace. If you were being vectored for an instrument approach they would say you are under Radar Control however, for a VFR transit they leave you to your own devices.

[Chilli Monster]

Because they are Military controllers who use different procedures. These were originally Special Rules Zones that were changed to the civil designation of Class D airspace. If you were being vectored for an instrument approach they would say you are under Radar Control however, for a VFR transit they leave you to your own devices.

Without wishing to burst your bubble ALL the current Class 'D' zones that were in existence when the ICAO airspace classification system was adopted in 1991 were SRZ's - both civil and military. There was no "adoption" of civil designation - it was a change from a National designation to an International Designation.

So - on that basis the airspace has never been different from it's civil counterpart, therefore, in the same was as ATSOCAS (sic) have been standardised so there is no reason why Class 'D' operations should be different. Maybe with the Military having only one piece of class 'D' in the near future maybe they should sort their act out and step into line with the rest of the country.

[BEXIL160]

The question was rhetorical.

Class D airspace is class D, as Chilli has explained. Outside the Class D, the mil are very good at ensuring that we both know what type of service I'm getting (Basic, Traffic, Deconfliction)... but when I enter the class D....

however, for a VFR transit they leave you to your own devices.

So what type of service am I receiving then? Has to be Radar Control doesn't it?

BEX

[Spyder]

Have a look at CAA safetysense leaflet (online pdf available) 27 "VFR Light in controlled airspace" (http://www.caa.co.uk/application.aspx?catid=33&pagetype=65&appid=11&mode=detail&id=2610) section 9 f & g which talks to the "radar service" element of this question.

[englishal]

There are differences from control zone to control zone IMHE. Solent will give you "radar control service", yet I have never had this from Bournemouth who normally leave you on your own, occasionally passing traffic info. I don't know if you tell them your routing at the initial call whether this makes a difference and then they are not required to "control" you? (i.e. from Tarrant Rushton to Hengistbury Head via the overhead)

[BEXIL160]

I'm not confused. The ATC Service in Class D is a Radar Control Service (or possibly a Procedural Service, unlikely, but possible).

RCS doesn't imply that you are going to get vectored all around the sky, or indeed that any separation is going to be provided against IFR traffic.

The Class of airspace dictates the separation (or otherwise) that ATC have to provide. In Class D there is no requirement to separate IFR and VFR traffic.

I don't understand why the Military, in particular, don't change the type of service when I enter CAS, but merely advise me to maintain VMC. They are always very quick to place me under one of the ATSOCAS when I leave, which is right and proper.

But what type of service do they reckon they are providing in CAS? :confused:

[soaringhigh650]

I don't understand why the Military, in particular, don't change the type of service when I enter CAS

They're probably just a bit more laid back. Save some extra radio chatter.

But what type of service do they reckon they are providing in CAS

Who cares? You've physically crossed the line and entered controlled airspace. It can't be any of the "ATSOCAS" because it is used outside. Follow instructions, and advise early if you cannot maintain VFR or if it takes you into terrain. You can't go too far wrong! ;)

[Slap Landing]

Hey all, an opinion from a military LARS controller...

Thought I'd mention that a 'Radar Service' doesnt necessarily imply Radar Control. Radar services include Traffic Service, Deconfliction Service (both available in and out of CAS), and finally Radar Control which is used within CAS. Thus DS and TS can be used within CAS also. RCS merely gives the Area controller more certainty as to the ac flight profile, and they are responsible for providing a safe transit through CAS. What it does mean is that the civil sectors can co-ordinate against an ac under RCS in the knowledge that it will not deviate from its assigned hdg & alt/FL. On a DS one may ask for a change of hdg/alt/etc; on a TS one should advise before commencing the ammendment; on a BS do as one pleases :-)!

What is interesting here is that by the controller saying '...radar service' they may have simply upgraded a BS to a TS providing the track and alt are within the limitations of TS i.e. above terrain safe level (or warned that one is 'below TSL you are responsible for taking your own terrain separation', and the ac is correctly 'identified' (something that the controller is not obliged to inform you of on a Basic Service, even though by assigning a 3A code positive ident exists).

Another third key point is that a Procedural Service and BS are not radar services as each aircraft are not required to be monitored on a radar console or identified at all - unlikely on a mil console (cant speak for civvies). Or even if positive ident cannot be achieved you may hear 'G-CD traffic believed to be you has traffic 12 o'clock 2 miles manoeuvring no height information believed to be a windfarm.' From a military LARS perspective BS and TS are treated very similar. We tend to provide BS traffic with as much attention as everyone else with the exceptions of formal identification or a blip that dissappears into areas of high radar clutter.

To add to the Mil class D dit: purely East coast myself, I've never worked with class D, but I'm reliably informed that it is established around Lyneham and Brize due to the size and pax carrying capacity of the aircraft types; logical?
In practice the Lyneham/Brize class D is nothing more than an extravagant MATZ, the difference being that they can provide (and often do) SVFR clearances. In fact the controllers at Lyneham/Brize are only required to complete the Terminal ATC training course, and as such will not have used RCS (unless coming from an Area tour in which case they would have completed the corresponding training course). Either way mil terminal units will not provide RCS when a DS, TS, or SVFR clr will do :-p

Well, sun seems to be shining so its off to the club for a tour of Norfolk today... anyone at Old Buckenham fancy a bacon butty?

SL

[BEXIL160]

Not sure that the above is true....

... Radar services include Traffic Service, Deconfliction Service (both available in and out of CAS)

Really? References please where they are available in CAS. (of any class) MATS part one or whatever JSP is relevant.

and

In practice the Lyneham/Brize class D is nothing more than an extravagant MATZ

..and yet a MATZ is usually purely class G. Civil Aircraft don't require any form of "clearance" (but it's a good idea to talk to the unit concerned)

.... one more then... When would a SVFR Clearance be necessary in Class D?(and what type of service would the unit provide in the airspace?)

BEX:suspect:

[chevvron]

According to reports I've heard, you can delete 'Lyneham class D' wef 20 July.

[Slap Landing]

Bex...

I shall dig out some references for you, cant grasp them off the top of my head. But bearing in mind that Radar Control is useful for class A crossings, most CAS upward of 195/245 is class C.

You are absolutely correct with the MATZ being class G, and likewise that SVFR clearances are not required in class D; SVFR clearances are constantly being interrogated, when actually they are only really useful in low class A (eg. London).

But as I say, BZN/LYE class D is essentially established for the type of ac they operate, applying CAS rules allows the controller a little more SA of the area to provide a safe transit. Quite rightly I cannot think of a useful reason for SVFR for D but they do somehow :-/. As for the type of service, they can only provide the usual LARS ATSOCAS (BS, TS, DS).

SL

[soaringhigh650]

Radar services include Traffic Service, Deconfliction Service (both available in and out of CAS)

Not to my knowledge. The key is in the name:

ATSOCAS (BS, TS, DS).

When in CAS, separation & traffic information is given depending on the classification of airspace.

[NorthSouth]

Well, I'll shove my usual tuppence worth in here which stirred up all sorts of negativity last time I said it.

I have NEVER been given a Radar Control Service when entering Class D airspace VFR. Our local ATC unit NEVER tells VFR transits they are under a Radar Control Service.

This is all perfectly fine and in accordance with MATS Part 1 Section 3 Chapter 1, which states that the service to be provided by Approach Control within Class A to E airspace is "Air Traffic Control Service
with or without surveillance". In this case they're giving Air Traffic Control Service without surveillance. In almost all cases this is for traffic which has been under a BS before entering CAS, so not providing a radar service is entirely consistent with the previous service provision.

Just because you have a radar it doesn't mean you have to provide a radar service, whether your traffic's inside CAS or not.

NS

[soaringhigh650]

Just because you have a radar it doesn't mean you have to provide a radar service, whether your traffic's inside CAS or not.

Sounds reasonable. You don't need a radar for CAS.

[BEXIL160]

Ok, Chapter and Verser from the MATS Part 1

1.2 Type of Surveillance Service
1.2.1 The airspace within which the aircraft is flying determines the type of surveillance
service available, as shown in the table below
Controlled Airspace : Radar Control Service
Outside Controlled : Airspace Deconfliction Service or Traffic Service
1.2.2 Pilots must be advised if a service commences, terminates or changes when:
a) they are operating outside controlled airspace; or
b) they cross the boundary of controlled airspace.

and....

1.3 Radar Control Service
1.3.1 A Radar Control Service may be provided to aircraft operating IFR, Special VFR or VFR.
When providing the service controllers issue instructions to which:
a) pilots of aircraft operating IFR are required to comply; and
b) pilots of aircraft operating Special VFR or VFR will comply unless they advise the
controller otherwise.
NOTE: The manner in which VFR flights under Radar Control Service may be safely
integrated with the IFR traffic flow in the vicinity of aerodromes is described
in Section 3.
1.3.2 Before an aircraft enters controlled airspace the controller must establish which flight
rules the pilot will be operating under.

Controlled airspace is defined as Classes A-D, Outside CAS is defined as F and G

Is there any CLASS D airspace not covered by some sort of RADAR?

BEX

[flybymike]

I have NEVER been given a Radar Control Service when entering Class D airspace VFR. Our local ATC unit NEVER tells VFR transits they are under a Radar Control Service.


And yet at my own base (Leeds) Radar Control is far more often given than not.

[10W]

For a whole host of reasons, UK civil ATC are supposed to advise pilots when the service being provided changes.

If you enter Controlled Airspace from Class F or G airspace, then you can no longer receive the ATSOCAS service you were being given (Basic, Traffic, or Deconfliction). The controller can only give you an Air Traffic Control Service which is effectively either a Procedural or Radar Control service. Note that this doesn't mean that they have to control you with vectors or have you fly at a single level, more generic clearances are normally given.

If you leave CAS, then again the ATC unit has a responsibility to ask you what service you require under ATSOCAS, or to terminate their service and transfer you to another appropriate unit if you need one.

The provision of Flight Information and Alerting services are a given for all classes of airspace.

[ATCO Two]

I am amazed at the lack of knowledge about radar services and ATC clearances being displayed on this thread, especially by people that should know better.
Firstly Basic Service, Traffic Service and Deconfliction Service are not available within controlled airspace.
In a radar environment, within a control zone it is radar control service. Pilots should always be informed of a change of service, in order that everybody is clear about their responsibilities for separation, vectoring and flying in accordance with the privileges of their licence.
In a Class D CTR, VFR clearances can be given until the visibility at the associated aerodrome falls below 5 km, at which point the ATCO informs the pilot of the visibility and requests from the pilot what kind of clearance he requires. The pilot is responsible for determining his in-flight visibility and can elect to continue VFR, or request a SVFR clearance. At night in a Class D CTR, pilots must fly either SVFR or IFR and will be provided with standard separation from other such flights.
I sincerely hope our military colleagues are fully briefed on such points before summer 2012.

[flybymike]

Two excellent and clear posts.