Flying a model plane from a real one

[Ph1l]

Hypotheically of course, how legal might it be for a passenger in an aircraft to fly a model aircraft from the plane?

I know it is possible to do and how to do it, what we have in mind is to fly a model f16 ducted fan jet from the seat while they fly in formation for a circuit, but we were wondering how legal it might be?

Any thoughts?

[DeeCee]

Seems harmless enough. Go for it. :eek:

[BRL]

I think you can only fly model planes in designated areas/sites.

[Mictheslik]

I should imagine it would be bloody difficult for whoever is flying the model AC....would have to get used to being on a moving platform that might jolt around a bit etc. Wouldn't fancy risking it especially with one of those expensive model jets....

.mic

[FleetFlyer]

Actually, you can fly model aeroplanes anywhere you like. There are certain areas where it is daft to do so, such as on the short final to Heathrow. Having said that, there are aeromodellers who fly within the circuit of Farnborough.

I'm pretty sure that about 20 years ago somebody flew an RC model across the Channel controlling it from a helicopter. So from a legal standpoint it can be done but to be completely safe you may need approval from the CAA.

There's probably some law such as 'reckless endangerment of an aircraft' that the CAA's lawyers might use against you should it all go tits.

From a not getting into trouble standpoint, you should do this where nobody can see you. I.e. a private strip or something like it.
From a practical standpoint, your F16 should be of sufficiently low intertia that should it go through your windscreen, it won't kill your pilot. It should also be able to manage a speed comparable to what you'll be doing.

Also, there may be things in the big aeroplane that interfere with your RC transmitter, so test that first, with the engine running.

Good luck, and try not to kill anyone!

[ct8282]

Let me know where you're going to do this and when so that I can make sure I am not flying within 100 miles of you guys. What if the model hits your prop. What if your RC equipment gets interfered by a radio transmission to/from the aircraft and temporarily goes out of control.

Surely there is just too much risk involved to make this worthwhile.

[Jan Olieslagers]

It depends where one is, of course, but in this country it would be a no-no: R/C never above 500' AGL (and indeed only in designated areas), PPL and microlight never below.

For this once, there seems some logic to that.

[FleetFlyer]

Just as I thought; its been done already with helicopters!

YouTube - ‪R C Helicopter Channel crossing.‬‏ (http://youtu.be/IKfHN86f_1s)

sorry I don't know how to embed the video.

[Echo Romeo]

Sounds barmy to me :rolleyes:

[Flying Binghi]

...fly a model f16 ducted fan jet from the seat while they fly in formation...

Why dont ya just put a mini GPS autopilot in it and let the little f16 go of and do its own thing...:ooh:





.

[Evanelpus]

Hypotheically of course, how legal might it be for a passenger in an aircraft to fly a model aircraft from the plane?

In the name of everything that's holy, where did this come from?

All I can say is you must have too much time on your hands. As someone else has said, if you do decide to do it, let us all know and we'll avoid the area like the plague.

[Ph1l]

As for the why, why not? Sounds like a fun thing to try. Why do a loop in an a/c etc etc.. Provided of course its safe and legal. I'd add thats its only a small polystyrene electric jet, not one of the huge expensive ones.

As for the model going out of control, for any signal loss they always shut off with control surfaces flat, it may not be a good outcome for the model but not the end of the world. The model would be kept below and to the side of the cub so it can be seen clearly and wont get in the way.
And of course it would be flown by an experienced pilot (which rules me out!)and modeller.

I think it would be cool to see it done, but the 500ft rule is a good point and could be the problem with this. If theres a few hundred feet between the model and the cub it seems a bit pointless!

[eharding]

small polystyrene electric jet



cub



That's your problem, right there.

How are you going to fly the small polystyrene electric jet slowly enough to stay in formation with the Cub?

[sycamore]

A few questions: how big is it ? how heavy is it? how fast/slow will it fly?
What is it`s endurance ? what guaranteed range will it operate at ? What is the maximum height you are permitted to fly models?
Are you a `real`pilot ? have you ever flown formation in `real` aeroplanes ? Has your pilot friend ? How will you perform the take-off ? What type of `real` aeroplane will you fly in ? What happens if you lose sight of it ? What happens if it won`t respond in flight ?
Is your insurance sufficient? Is the owner of the aircraft`s insurance sufficient ? Have you checked with the CAA about flying UAVs/RPVs ?
I would suggest that a `NO` answer to any question should be sufficient...Otherwise go and find a friendly airfield manager,and ask him if you can practise driving a car around his airfield whilst trying to control your model first......
We will await your answer in due course..!;)

[Unusual Attitude]

I have to confess, this thing looks a hoot !!!

YouTube - ‪EDF F-16 W/Onboard Cockpit Camera‬‏

Could fly it from wherever you want as long as you remain within TX/RX range...!

[Humaround]

I thought about doing this in the early '70's - I was flying fast aerobatic R/C models and a friend had a Piper Vagabond which was based at the same strip as we flew models from. The speeds were broadly similar.

In the end I didn't because it just seemed too likely to end in a plastic bagful of bits of my model, which had taken many hours to design and build, and quite a bit of my hard-earned.

The Vagabond didn't have a radio (IIRC) so that wasn't a problem but I was concerned that the range of my R/C system (normally perfectly adequate - in sight was in range) might be adversely affected by the Tx being away from the ground.

It would be extremely difficult to keep the model in sight at all times from the inside of a high wing aircraft - and you need to see it to fly it. Eyes off for a few seconds would probably result in a crash.

From where we flew, there wouldn't have been much risk to anyone except ourselves (and not much of that) but that was in the deepest wilds of Dorset.

Why do it? Why do anything a bit difficult?

[coldair]

Have you factored in the Inflight Refueling issue ? ;)

[FleetFlyer]

I'm pretty sure this doesn't violate rule 5. (no flight within 500ft of any vessel, vehicle, or structure, except within the vicinity of an aerodrome or with the purpose of taking off or landing)

As for visibility, thats the nub of the problem. Keeping the model in sight will be very difficult and loss of sight due to structure of the plane getting in the way may well result in losing the model.

Your transmitter will have better range in the air rather than worse. As long as you can see the model you'll be fine.

[IO540]

I think it would be illegal if done practically because IIRC model flying must not be above 500ft AGL, but the real plane needs to be above 500ft AGL, so maintaining visual contact might be tricky unless done over a wide open area (or the sea).

I can see why they used a heli because they are 500ft exempt, and they can be used to recover the model :)

Practically, it should work but most model planes fly quite slowly (not 140kt). Interference is often an issue and 2.4GHz is not what it is made out to be. You would need to test it carefully.

Just don't put the video on Youtube... A related area is a hot topic on model flying forums. If you google on FPV you will see loads, and much of it obviously provocative if not illegal. If I was a model flyer (my son is a very keen one) I would be very concerned about a few idiots (not referring to the OP here) bringing the whole hobby into disrepute by posting outrageous FPV videos. I am not going to write any more for obvious reasons.

[trex600]

I know first hand of 1 model flying site that is treading on egg shell's after realising that there new luxurious site they have signed a 2 year contract on is 'illegally' to close to a class D airport! They fly carefully and quietly!
'They have an EASA type organisation themselves but iv forgotten the name'
and have to be insured and stick to the rules

However i also know of another RC site that is at the far side of an active airfield and nobody bats an eye lid.

Announce it to the public and you will get problems! Cross your fingers and keep it quiet and you may get away with it.

Btw, google my handle

[Spitoon]

Check the conditions on the licence or exemption for the R/C tx. Check the weight and size against the ANO to see if it is classed as a model (or whatever they call it in the leg). If it's still a goer, then think about many of the other points raised in the thread....

[Conventional Gear]

I've a feeling the height restriction in the UK is normally 400ft for a model plane.

Mention of it here:

http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/33/CAP658.PDF

[youngskywalker]

Ducted fan models are capable of speeds far greater than most GA aircraft! I should think the full size machine would have trouble keeping up! I should imagine the vortices coming off the full size would cause severe control problems for the model if you plan on flying too close? A bit like a microlight trying to formate on a heavy jet I would imagine!

I've been flying RC models of various sizes and complexity for over 30years. It sounds like an interesting experiment. Make sure you bring a couple of black bin liners...

[treadigraph]

Slight thread drift, I've a hazy recollection of hearing about a synchronised aerobatic display between a real Tiger Moth and an R/C one - not in formation obviously! Anyone recall it, might have been the Barnstormers...?

[Ph1l]

Thank you all for your comments, it seems theres a split between those who think its just stupid and those who think it would be cool!

The model has about 10 kts over the cub but its also suprisingly good at slow speed too. The plan is to keep it slightly ahead, below and to the right of the cub, being a l/h circuit that will ensure the wing is always above the model so its in sight at all times.
A normal circuit (which has been timed) was about 2 mins and flat out battery life in the jet is 6 mins or more.
The transmitter range is more than enough and there is no noticable interference caused at all, but if the signal is lost the model shuts down and with nothing and no one to hit on the ground its only the model that suffers.

I would say id put on a video if we did it for those who also think it would be cool to try, but i think its one i ought to keep to my myself! If it even works of course ;)

[Mechta]

If you used two transmitters, one on the ground and one in the air, you could get both model and full-size aircraft airborne, then either with a prearranged light signal or by radio, hand control over by simultaneous switching off/on the transmitters using a countdown.

Flying opposite hand circuits with an agreed 'glass wall' so that the airborne pilot can take over when the model is ahead and to one side of the model at handover would help. As with 'buddy box' flying it is important that trim and throttle positions are all confirmed so nothing sudden happens on hand over.

The full-size pilot should be flying a pre-agreed circuit once hand over is complete, and it should obviously be over open countryside (preferably empty farmland or water).

Allow plenty of time well in advance to cover all the possible things that might go wrong with either aircraft, comms, unexpected traffic, you name it. You don't want to have to be making decisions on the hoof. The full-size pilot should just fly a nice steady pattern. Chasing the model around the sky shouldn't be an option.

For the full-size aircraft I would have thought a microlight trike would give much better visibility than a Cub. You have to remember that the full-size pilot won't be able to concentrate on keeping the model in sight, so what do you do if it goes in a blind spot? First person video would at least let you see the full-size aircraft from the model, even if you can't see it.

As has been mentioned, models have been flown from helicopters, and I should think it has been done for filmwork as well. The secret is in the planning. How about seeing if you can control an R/C buggy from the air when the wind is blowing down the strip, and how long you can keep an R/C slope soarer or even your F-16 'foamie' hovering within a frame to one side of you when standing on a hill in a good wind?

Finally, can it all be done with the approval of the CAA and within the terms of the aircraft's insurance? Evidence of planning, risk assessments and relevant experience count far more than 'Hey y'all watch this'.

[hitec]

we want more.

New York City on Vimeo

YouTube - ‪FPV rc plane night flight police helicopter chase‬‏

YouTube - ‪alishanmao's Channel‬‏ (http://www.youtube.com/user/alishanmao#p/u/120/BKxicUdGcoo)

In the Playfield of Angels on Vimeo

DRAGON LINK - THE BEST PERFORMIN (http://www.terranova.net/~winger/RCVideoStore/DragonLink/DragonLink.htm)

Eagle Tree – R/C Telemetry OSD RC FPV First Person View diversity tracking NTSC PAL RC Aircraft data logger RC Model Airplane Telemetry On Screen Display Wireless Telemetry RC data logger Flight Data Recorder Model Boat Recorder Telemetry Boat (http://www.eagletreesystems.com/)



:ok::cool::D:)

[WALSue]

How about controling a guy with a jet back instead!?

YouTube - ‪Martin Jetpack 5000ft flight - highlights‬‏ (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SHPedpE70Es&feature=youtu.be)

[Thoughtful_Flyer]

There is a tremendous amount of misinformation and speculation on this thread! Indeed the link to CAP658 is about the only useful post!!

The facts.....

The "400ft rule" applies only to models over 7KG. Above this weight they can only (legally) be flown higher inside an ATZ (obviously with permission) or if a special NOTAM is obtained, as is normal for model shows and large events.

Models over 20KG require a CAA exemption which is obtained via the Large Model Association (LMA) who act on behalf of the CAA. The model has to be inspected during the building process, have certain redundancy within its onboard systems, and pass a supervised test flight program. It is then "licensed" to be flown only by certain named pilots.

All models are subject to the "catch all" provisions of the ANO such as not recklessly or negligently endangering etc. etc.

Also, in the UK a model can only legally be flown within the unaided sight of the pilot. There is a new special procedure for so called "First Person View" systems where the pilot wears goggles to view a TV picture from an on-board camera. In this case the master transmitter must be held by a person flying the model normally. He can give control to another transmitter (buddy box) used by the person wearing the goggles. However, the pilot with the master transmitter must not allow the model to go out of his unaided sight and must re-take control if there is any danger of this happening. He is legally responsible for the safety of the whole flight (i.e PIC).

All of this relates to recreational model flying. There are other rules for commercial unmanned aerial vehicles.

Hope this helps.

[2hotwot]

The Tiger Club did some RC model flying in formation with a Tiger Moth with the modeller standing on the Tiger's wing. It was late 60's I believe. Does anyone have any photographs I wonder? I don't believe that it was flown at an airshow though as was the original intention.

[Johnm]

I was at Aeroexpo Bitburg last weekend and watched a model and a "real" aeroplane doing formation aerobatics, very impressive.

[PompeyPaul]

Whenever you try and do something new and innovative there's always a small army of people to say "no" and very few people to say go for it. It's because that's the easier / safer thing to do.

If the Wright brothers tried flying, for the first time today, they would never get off the ground! They wouldn't have insurance to cover them, there would be some sort of licensing / permit / tax issue to sort out (sorry mate, it needs an MOT because it's petrol driven but I can't give you one because of x,y,z). They would need some sort of crash helmet that hadn't been invented yet.

The very fact you can't ride a Segway in the UK in public, due to 'elf n safety, just shows what a ridiculous, nanny state we've become.

I say go for it! There's no doubt it's a but dangerous but there again so is climbing Everest, going to the moon or pretty much anything we call "progress"