In a spin

[Conventional Gear]

Hi guys,

Moving towards aeros and having not done a spin recovery during the PPL (aircraft not permitted to spin) I've picked up that it can be difficult to know which way one is spinning.


What is the most reliable way to know in which sense to initiate recovery?

I'm guessing the turn indicator would be a good start, I've also heard that one should not look down into the center of the spin but out of the side window, any thoughts advice appreciated.

(Just hope my stomach is going to keep up with my enthusiasm over the next few months :\)

[FlyingStone]

Aeros are usually visual manuevers, so as long as you are making intentional spin entries and recoveries, you should be looking outside. The direction of a turn during spin is usually quite easy to figure out, especially if you are doing it intentionally, since you will almost always give aircraft pro-spin rudder when it stalls, to give it enough yaw to develop a spin - if you'll push left rudder to develop a spin, then push right rudder to get out of it. It depends on the type, but many spin-certified CS23 aircraft require rudder input to actually hold the aircraft spinning - if you release it, the rotation will slowly decelerate, all you have to do is give it a bit contra-rudder and pull it out of a dive. Recovery from dive is where you should glance an airspeed indicator to see how much buffer do you have from Vne (again, it depends on the aircraft) - nevertheless, don't be too agressive on the stick during recovery: controls are very effective at high speeds and a bit of overreaction could dynamically stall the aircraft.

Of course, if an aircraft gets into spin in IMC conditions, then looking at your turn coordinator should show the direction of a spin, but in VMC - look outside :)

[mary meagher]

At Dunstable they have a K13 glider kept especially for spin training, as the glassfibre K21 training gliders are reluctant to spin, and have to have tail loaded with a bit of lead to unbalance properly!

I used to hate and dread spinning, but the dear old K13 is such a reliable old boat I grew to love spins and now do them every chance I get, just for the fun of it. When introducing a beginner to the sport, best to let him enter the spin and make the recovery; in the old days, the instructor would bang it in, and say "now recover, you have control!" which is unhelpful, as you don't have a chance to feel it go whoomp! as it enters, and to savour the way the elevator no longer works in the normal sense!

If the front seat pilot is a bit overweight, it will most likely not spin at all, but spiral dive, in which case all controls are working normally.

In a K13, I do the hassll checks first, height adequate for recovery, airframe speed limitations (eg, do not exceed 108 knots in the recovery dive), straps done up nice and tight, objects in the cockpit secure, location is appropriate (not over population centers or airfields or other aircraft below one) and lookout (again!). And then do a clearing 180 degree turn first to left, then another to right, in case another glider sees you turning 360 degrees and thinks "oho, he's got a thermal, I'll just slot in underneath!".

And then I just amble along nicely, getting slower, and slower, and eventually a wing will give up and drop, and THAT'S the way it wants to go, so a boot full of rudder in agreement with the wing drop, stick held fully back, and ROUND you go! Yahoo! Having put it in the spin, just do the recovery the other way, don't have to think left or right. Helpful if one is dyslexic.

Have fun! You do know how to recover, don't you?

And if you enter a spin while over-ruddering a final turn onto approach, don't worry about which way it is spinning, because you are too low to make the recovery anyhow. It WILL be your FINAL turn......

[Pilot DAR]

What Flying Stone said.

If you have deliberately entered the spin in suitable conditions, you will know which direction it is going. If you have accidentally entered a spin with the horizon in sight, you will know which way it is going.

If you have entered a spin with inadequate visual reference to identify the direction, you should not have been flying that way there, in the first place, without adequate instrument flying training. That training will teach you to recognize and recover from unusual attitudes.

In a spin approved aircraft, with the right amount of space around, and under you, a spin is a very safe and worthwhile maneuver to practice for improving pilot skill. The rotation may seem a little fast and blurry the first few times, but as you do a few, they will seem to slow down, and you'll have a sense of more time to observe, enjoy then recover.

First, we do not have a skill. Then we gain that skill, but not yet the familiarity to completely demonstrate it in "real time". With practice, the skill improves, but more so, our ability to always "be ahead" if it improves.

Go an take aerobatic training, and do spins. The more you do it, the less blurry the rotating world will seem!

[Conventional Gear]

Have fun! You do know how to recover, don't you?

Full opposite rudder, ailerons central, pause, stick forward until rotation stops, centralise rudder, ease out from the dive.

If above fails, into spin aileron, maintain full opposite rudder and stick full forward.

That's what I've got from the pilot notes for the type I expect to teach me my first spin. :ok:

[mary meagher]

Yes, that's the correct sequence of the recovery action. However if flying power, I seem to remember you should ease off on the throttle as well.

A spin is an event when one wing is stalled and the other is not, and auto-rotation takes place. In many gliders, simply easing the stick forward a bit will bring it out of the stalled condition. This may be the same for power, but I expect that depends on the type, and how established you are in the spin, and if it is a "flat" spin! Pilots that attempt the flat spin are usually wearing a parachute!

Position of the stick fully back is the giveaway.....ease it forward and see what happens! (assume plenty of height, of course.

Mary

[NigelOnDraft]

A spin is an event when one wing is stalled and the other is notErrr... one might choose to disagree ;)

A conventional spin usually has both wings stalled - however, the L/D characteristics beyond the stall lead to the autorotation (Lift and Drag curves in opposite directions).

One wing stalled and one not is used in a Flick Roll.

Overall - please do not read a pPrune thread on how to generically spin / recover or not :ooh: Recoveries can be very type specific, and the POH etc. should be well understood e.g. some types need a pause after the opposite rudder before stick forward, others you need to be careful of how much forward stick you might use to avoid an inverted spin etc. Some types are safe to spin at ~2500' (as in an aerobatic competition), others have a entry / recovery / abandonment calculation that might require ~8000' entry (Bulldog).

NoD

[BackPacker]

Full opposite rudder, ailerons central, pause, stick forward until rotation stops, centralise rudder, ease out from the dive.

As Nigel said - read the POH. The *official* spin recovery for the R2160 is actually:

Full opposite rudder, ailerons central, pause, stick forward *after* the rotation stops, ...

Your method works too in the R2160 and is actually more precise when doing competition aerobatics, but might not lead to the recovery with the least height loss.

[EK4457]

NoD beat me to it.....

An aircraft can spin (auto rotate) quite happily with both wings stalled. In fact, this is usually the case.

Also, whilst the recovery procedure is VERY type specific, the order of actions just given doesn't sit easy with me.

The whole point of easing the control column forward is to recover from the stall. Unless you have to for POH reasons, you do not want to be auto-rotating whilst stuffing the nose down.

Saying

stick forward until rotation stops

suggests that you think this is what causes the rotation to stop. It is the opposite rudder which achieves this.

A more sensible recovery sequence for a genreic type would have you easing the control column forward AFTER the autorotation has stopped. Otherwise you run the risk of tightening the spin.

EK

[DX Wombat]

Surely the sensible thing is to read the POH for the manufacturer's recommendations for recovery as they are not all the same. The C152 requires immediate power off, full opposite rudder and centralised controls until spin stops then recover from the ensuing spiral dive. The DA40, from memory, also requires power off, full opposite rudder but then - wings level and stick forward followed eventually by recovery from the spiral dive.

[Conventional Gear]

Interesting stuff

Saying

Quote:
stick forward until rotation stops
suggests that you think this is what causes the rotation to stop. It is the opposite rudder which achieves this.

The type I'll be flying has been subject to an AIL which reads:

Spin Recovery must be started at least 3,500 feet above ground level, in order to retain level flight by 1,500 feet, consistent with a height loss during recovery of up to 2,000 feet.

a) check throttle CLOSED;

b) check ailerons CENTRAL;

c) apply full OPPOSITE RUDDER;

d) PAUSE:

e) move the stick firmly FORWARD against the increasing stick force and stick buffet. IF NECESSARY TO THE FRONT STOP and hold it there until rotation ceases;

f) when rotation ceases CENTRALISE the rudder control and ease out of the ensuing dive

I wouldn't have thought stick fully forwards stops the rotation, but both the above and the pilot's notes specifically state stick forwards until rotation stops. I can see the point that it isn't what stops the rotation, but rather an instruction to do it until the rotation ceases.

[NigelOnDraft]

I wouldn't have thought stick fully forwards stops the rotation, but both the above and the pilot's notes specifically state stick forwards until rotation stops. I can see the point that it isn't what stops the rotation, but rather an instruction to do it until the rotation ceases.Opposite Rudder tends to slow the rotation, but the ac is still spinning (stalled).

Stick forward is attempting to unstall the wings. However, it will also initially tend to speed up the rotation (look up B/A ratio :rolleyes: ) - in the type above, that is why the "PAUSE" - slow the rotation as much as possible prior stick forward.

Leave it up to the TPs to experiment and devise the recovery drill - as above shows, each type needs to be considered differently.

NoD

[Conventional Gear]

Yep you are correct NoD - increasing speed of rotation is remarked on as a sign of correct recovery technique for the type in question.

Perhaps there is confusion as to the purpose of the thread.

I didn't originally ask about how to do spin recovery, simply how does one reliably establish the direction of a spin. (I was thinking of an inadvertent spin during aeros practice you see). I never actually asked what the the recovery technique was, that was just an interesting side topic that came up.

Clearly the POH or in this case handling notes and an AIL are the place to look for exact technique. :ok:

[moreflaps]

The rudder pedal with the most resistance will be the one to push I think -but the turn coordinator is also reliable. Personally I have used neither so far as I have somehow always know what direction the spin was in (as I started it ;))

Remember for generic recovery PARE should work -we just had a long thread about this.

Cheers

[Mark1234]

Conventional Gear - for what it's worth, it's usually blindingly obvious which way the world is spinning, just watch the scenery blurring past the nose!

Most types I've met recover if you take your feet off, but the one I've met where it didn't you could take your feet off, and the rudder would sit on the in-turn stop - you then stand on the closest pedal. I believe moreflaps is also correct about the t/c.

Further down the line, putting the stick forward while maintaining in-spin rudder can be good fun (don't try this at home!).

[A and C]

If you can get to see a 1950's RAF instructional film called Spinning Modern Aircraft it will help no end in understanding the subject.

The film is a jem with a shots on long gone aircraft, graphics that must have been quite advanced at the time and a soundtrack that sounds like it was made by the BBC in 1935. But for all of that it is technicly correct for todays light aircraft.

[mary meagher]

Lots of expert advice chipped in here! Regret if I have misunderstood the stalled/unstalled condition of one wing or the other. Certainly something is stalled if the elevator no longer works in the normal sense.....

Easing back on the throttle (if you've got one!) seems to be agreed as part of the recovery process.

I'm sure you remember the old story about how the very first spin recovery was achieved?

[NigelOnDraft]

For those light hearted comments above about "how easy" "how obvious" "how fun to play with the controls" "I thnk this is how you do it":The rudder pedal with the most resistance will be the one to push I think
Further down the line, putting the stick forward while maintaining in-spin rudder can be good fun
might I suggest a read of this (recent) AAIB Report (http://www.aaib.gov.uk/cms_resources.cfm?file=/Stampe%20SV4C%20(Modified),%20G-BIMO%2005-11.pdf) and associated references.

To the OP What is the most reliable way to know in which sense to initiate recovery?read the POH and listen to/ask the instructor in your training. It will be somewhat type specific ;)

NoD

[Conventional Gear]

I'm sure you remember the old story about how the very first spin recovery was achieved?

I've a feeling it wasn't an intended recovery but an attempted escape, something about the pilot entering the spin and being pinned to the side of the cockpit, put in opposite rudder to release himself and the plane recovered for a go around and landing?

Can't remember the guys name but read about it many years ago.


PS thanks for your input NoD as a newbie to spins I **could** have fallen into the trap of thinking I was learning a standard technique for recovery, seems though loosely one does exist, one would be wise to consult the POH before considering spinning. ;)

[moreflaps]

Nod

Are you saying that the hardest rudder pedal does not indicate the yaw direction in spins? As I said, I haven't tested that proposition but I believe it to be correct and that is why I said "I think". There is certainly no light heartedness about unintentional spins implied on my part so what are you getting at?

In any case, as I read it, the accident brief you cite sheds no light on what actually went wrong except the PIC did not appear to be very experienced and the COG/WB was questionable.

Cheers

[NigelOnDraft]

Are you saying that the hardest rudder pedal does not indicate the yaw direction in spins?It does in 1 type I fly... as the "backstop recovery" (POH) if you are unsure what is happening. It is not the Spin Recovery Drill.

I have never heard it taught on any type I have flown. I have never taught it. I would never teach it except where specifically recommended. I cannot see how it would work with power / non-reversible controls. It certainly will not result in the optimum recovery.

the accident brief you cite sheds no light on what actually went wrong It sheds a lot of light, IMHO, about taking spin recoveries seriously, type specifically, and does not mention pPrune as an "authoritative reference" :rolleyes: The OP is starting out spinning, and asked some rather generic questions. I believe it worthwhile deflecting him from the advice above, and pointing out that it is a subject that can, and does kill, if not approached correctly.

Just my opinion ;)

NoD

[mary meagher]

Thanks, Nigel. I think I did mention that a spin on a final turn onto approach will probably be your final turn. Which should imply you don't mess around with spins. The poor chaps in the accident report you have cited had only 200 hours each, hardly exerienced; if as the cameras reported they ended up in an inverted spin in a Stampe, there was less than a minute remaining to get it sorted before the trees.

Yes of course, POH to be respected, digested, and training undertaken with an instructor who knows what he or she is talking about. Experimenting with spin recovery on assorted types is NOT recommended. Even with advice from assorted pruners.

In gliding, spin training is routine; in power instruction it is avoided. What a pity.

The original recovery I mentioned is not recorded in history, probably a myth. Very very early days, a spin (called Well Digging by the Wright Brothers) was without exception, terminal. So one hapless pilot, having inadvertently entered a spin, seeing he was about to die, decided to get it over with quickly, and moved the stick forward.....

[Conventional Gear]

Fortunately I've found the answer to my original question in a CAA safety sense leaflet. Should have perhaps done more research before posting on PPruNe.

[moreflaps]

Nigel

I think you've missed the point of my and other posts. The OP asked about what could be used to indicate spin direction. The recovery procedure is, as I and many others have stated, indicated by the POH. If that doesn't work you had better know some more spin recovery tools and, for example, letting go of the controls will do you no good if active control input (suggested by POH) has not broken the spin. On the other hand, and if letting go does not break the spin (if suggested by POH) you had better get active. The rudder is one of the most powerful anti-spin devices and you had better know which way to push it. The problem is that after several turns you may be so disorientated that you really can't tell which way you are spinning and may not be able to see the TC (nystagmus?). Then your best bet may be feel of the aircraft rudder pedals. As in all things flying YMMV, but knowledge imparted is more valuable than ignorance. A good pilot should try earn beyond the knowledge level of his original instructor (some may know little more than the teaching syllabus) and it was quite appropriate for the OP to ask and get opinions that are posted here. While I disagree with some statements posted in this thread I, personally state when my knowledge is uncertain ("I think").

Please note that I was not advocating just pushing the rudder as sole spin recovery technique but simply answering the original question. I suggest that PARE as the optimal generic spin recovery technique and NASA says the same, as does the CAA. (Handling Sense Leaflet 03: Safety In Spin Training | Publications | CAA (http://www.caa.co.uk/application.aspx?catid=33&pagetype=65&appid=11&mode=detail&id=1911)). OK?

[Conventional Gear]

The same leaflet that actually answered my original question and I quote:

d) In determining the direction of yaw for an inadvertent spin the turn needle is always the best indication (not slip ball). Beware if you only have a turn co-ordinator, it measures yaw and roll. In an inverted spin yaw and roll are in opposite directions so the turn co-ordinator is of no help to you here!

I knew I had read it somewhere and that's all I was after.

Certainly the rest has been stimulating enough, but I wasn't actually asking for a generic recovery technique, though I can see the handling notes for the aircraft I'll be spinning is close to PARE. I'll be watching out to see if I can feel the rudder in the spin, sounds though from the pilot's notes in a true spin the rudder may feel very light for the given type. I'll have to see.

[mary meagher]

Doesn't hurt to have a discussion and thrash it out thoroughly...the CAA leaflet is a useful summary.

C.G., do let us know about your spin training in detail, what type, where flown, how your instructor presents it. I'm sure we'd all be interested to know how you get on!

I did quite a few hours in a Warrior, first rate instrument platform, nice and steady. A biennial check ride in a C152 aerobatic approved type under the hood wasn't a problem, unusual attitudes included. The first clue that the examiner was planning to throw in a spin was our climb to altitude! Sensible man.

[Crash one]

Maybe I'm thick but what is PARE?
I was taught spins in gliders long ago (K13/Bocian) never heard it.

[Pilot DAR]

Maybe I'm thick but what is PARE?


I didn't know either, then someone here told me. We did not discuss the possibility that I was thick - yet undetermined....

I have a heck of a time remembering so many acronyms, so I just try to remember how to fly well, as learned and practiced. If I had to stop and remember an acronym, then remember what it stands for, then apply that, the event would already be over - for better or worse!

[HappyJack260]

How do you tell the direction of spin? Simple - look along the nose - NOT towards the ground - which means sighting up through the canopy and can be deceptive. When you are looking along the nose, the nose will move towards the direction of too much rudder. So, Power off; Controls to Neutral (stick and rudder); Check the direction of rotation / apply rudder in opposite direction to spin rotation; when spin stops and airspeed is above stall speed, apply power & recover to straight & level.

Basic approach works whether upright or inverted, flat or other.

[mary meagher]

OK, I've looked it up on Google.

P is for Power Off
A is for ailerons neutral
R is for Rudder, opposite and hold (until spin stops)
E is for Elevator, neutral.

as most nmonics, you can spend a lot of time down-wind trying to remember what the heck UFSTALL stands for. And still get it wrong....

P is for Pull the stick back???????
A is for Attitude -keep pulling and get that horizon in place....
R is for Roll into a turn
E is for Exit if you can still open the canopy......

[moreflaps]

PARE stands for:

Power: to idle
Ailerons: neutral (and flaps up)
Rudder: full opposite to the spin and held
Elevator: through neutral

When the spin stops recover the dive as normal

[Crash one]

Mary has it about right.
Nemonics can mean anything you wish, P= power up, pull like hell, pray, piss yersel. you name it.
If the thing is spinning, recovery should be an automatic action, not a checklist reference.

[Genghis the Engineer]

I do keep the recommended spin recovery for any given type on my kneeboard - I generally try to remind myself from time to time, and almost always before any deliberate stalling. There are worse ways of spending 20 seconds between your HASELL checks and the first stall, or more likely whilst I'm climbing to height for manoeuvre.

G

[Wide-Body]

moreflaps PARE stands for:

Elevator: through neutral

And in some types this is how to execute a crossover spin depending on how fast and how far past neutral you go.

Not a go at you moreflaps, but as an aerobatic instructor this is an area where cover all defences can be very dangerous.

[ShyTorque]

Clearly the POH or in this case handling notes and an AIL are the place to look for exact technique.

IMO, the only proper advice here. There's no such thing as a "general" correspondence course in spin recoveries covering all aircraft types.

During my time as an RAF QFI I read an interesting "AIRCLUES" article written by the Chief Instructor of the RAF's Central Flying School (Wing Commander Peter Moore).

He was current on all three types of aircraft then flown at CFS, namely Bulldog, Jet Provost and Hawk. All three had very different spin recovery techniques.

One day he was flying the Air Officer Commanding (i.e. one of the biggest RAF big-wigs) in the Hawk. The AOC had no experience on that type and asked to see a full spin and recovery.

As he put the aircraft into the spin, PM had a mental blank and couldn't remember the recovery procedure....... Thankfully it did come back to him just in time and they survived, but PM lost most of his hair on top with the stress of it (oh no, my mistake - that last bit happened before the event).

His message was.... don't become blase; mentally think about the recovery drill beforehand.

We used to be required to practice high rotational spin recoveries every month whilst instructing on the Bulldog (always 2 QFIs together). We used to brief the other QFI how we were going to enter the hi-rot. spin and how we intended to recover..... easier if you only fly one type but even more relevant if it's more than one.

As a student pilot I once badly messed up a stall turn in a Jet Provost (in those days I seemed almost impervious to G) and the aircraft flicked on me, going upwards. By the time I'd sorted it out I reckon it had tail slid, hammerheaded and spun rapidly in both directions and I was almost completely disorientated by the rapidly spinning horizon outside. I eventually went heads in and used the turn needle as I had been taught and recovered, but by then I had lost 10,000 feet plus and was below the minimum safe height for ejection... not that I was aware of the fact at the time; only on climbout afterwards.

Put me in good stead for when a UAS student of mine later inadvertantly did just about the same in a Bulldog, during workup up to his spin/aeros check (Bulldog could be one of the least forgiving types the RAF had).

The subsequent "antics" of the aircraft over the next few seconds resulted in the student actually screaming out loud! He was a big "ruffy-tuffy" rugby player at that. I made light of it but he was very embarassed about it :p

I lost a lot less height sorting out that one - but we both decided he'd had enough aeros for the day and so we went home to base for a debrief and to get the aircraft looked over by the engineers.

[Pilot DAR]

Torque's is valuable advice, though perhaps not entirely in place in a discussion regarding spins, in spin approved certified GA types. My experience is that spin approved GA types all have more or less the same recovery technique, and will adequately respond to any recovery technique, which is close.

That's no excuse for not being properly trained in spin recovery, and doing it right, and Torque's advice certainly shows the need for awareness when flying other types.

When I'm spinning non spin approved types during flight tests, I'm always being careful to apply the most appropriate recovery procedure (Flight Manual procedure if possible). I'm certainly not trying to invent new techniques!

[moreflaps]

WB: "And in some types this is how to execute a crossover spin depending on how fast and how far past neutral you go."

Interesting, in my experience that is not the case -unless you still have yaw, which should not be the case if you followed the R instruction in PARE. If you don't concur, can you explain why the spin flipped?

Cheers

[Conventional Gear]

His message was.... don't become blase; mentally think about the recovery drill beforehand.

I like that message, I shall remember to do just that before ever entering a spin.

[Wide-Body]

WB: "And in some types this is how to execute a crossover spin depending on how fast and how far past neutral you go."

Interesting, in my experience that is not the case -unless you still have yaw, which should not be the case if you followed the R instruction in PARE. If you don't concur, can you explain why the spin flipped?

Cheers

Sadly students do not do the R bit. They leave the opposite rudder on to long, or they do not centralise correctly. In your example leaving full rudder opposite on (this will shortly after the balance point induce yaw in the opposite direction) and pushing the stick past neutral (albeit aggressively) will send one type of aerobatic aircraft I fly into a crossover spin. Some types will tolerate slight rudder mishandling others will not.

As a basic concepts go, PARE has validity with stable run of the mill tourers. However there are so many variables with aerobatic aircraft any cover all spin recovery technique may induce its own hazards. There is nothing to beat flying with an experienced instructor on type.

[moreflaps]

Ah, I see the problem. The missing instruction is when the yaw stops check the rudder and move the stick forward, (not holding full opposite rudder to reverse the yaw). If the yaw is stopped when the stick goes forward the stall is broken on both wings and with no couple a dive results. Since the plane may be banked a spiral dive may result but that should be easy to fix... The interesting thing is that provided the COG is in limits, the NASA tests showed the reliability of this method.

Cheers

[BackPacker]

Since the plane may be banked a spiral dive may result but that should be easy to fix...

And that's exactly why we're banging on about using the recovery procedure from the POH. It's not so much that the generic PARE technique will not stop the spin, but it's the ensuing dive (spiral or not) and its recovery that may exceed the planes limitations if you happen to break the spin improperly.

I can well imagine that there are aircraft types that really require you to stop the yaw *before* you break the stall, otherwise you end up in a spiral dive which exceeds the aircrafts limitations. By stopping the yaw *before* you break the stall, all you will probably get into is a straight dive. Which is easier to recover from, within the planes limitations, than a spiral dive.

[Pace]

Backpacker

I think we all accept that spin training was stopped due to more aircraft being lost practicing them than in real situations.

My own feeling is that banning spin training was a mistake! What should have been done is firstly raising the altitude for spin training and secondly only allowing spin training in specific aircraft with known good spin characteristics.

Do we have figures for aircraft loss in spiral dive training as because of the connection between the two and indeed the possible confusion between the two manouvres my view which may be old school is that both should be thoroughly taught to and experienced by student pilots.

Pace

[rotorfossil]

The main problem if you get into a spin inadvertently is the disorientation. If your aircraft is fitted with a turn & slip (not a turn co-ordinator, it doesn't work); full opposite rudder to the turn needle. With ailerons neutral check direction of rotation. If rotation is same as yaw, you are in an upright spin and stick forward or as in the flight manual if it says different. If rotation is opposite to yaw, you are in an inverted spin, in which case stick back. When rotation stops, ease out of the dive - gently!

Best not to get into the situation that leads to an inadvertent spin, particularly close to the ground.

[ProfChrisReed]

Pace wrote:I think we all accept that spin training was stopped due to more aircraft being lost practicing them than in real situations.


This is what "everyone knows", but I've never found any research which demonstrated it as a fact.

I can't see how spin training at a suitable height, in a suitable aircraft, should lead to any increase in training accidents. In gliding we had a spate of accidents when a new type of trainer arrived some years ago, but since its (different) spinning characteristics were properly understood it's now recognised as the best spin trainer available.

[The500man]

I was under the impression it wasn't training accidents that led to spinning being removed from the syllabus, but newly minted PPL holders that were showing off to their friends, and finding out that they weren't as **** hot as they thought?

[BackPacker]

Or a plot by Mr. Cessna and Mr. Piper, so that they could sell more "intentional spins prohibited" C172s and PA28s to flight schools?

In any case, bringing spins back as a mandatory element in PPL training would cause a lot of flight schools to make significant changes to their fleet.

[Pace]

I have to say I have flown with some great old school examiners in both twin props and jets.

They all had one thing in common! You do everything fully! OK we take the twins up to 10K and the jets higher but none of this incipient rubbish.

Next it will be recovering an aircraft from an incipient takeoffs( ie too dangerous up there) and im not talking about pre V1 aborted takeoffs :E

All good for the soul as they would say.

Pace

[Dan Winterland]

As for the question of which way - it's not alway's immediately obvious from visual references. The direction of spin is defined as the direction of yaw. the only true way of determining this is to check the turn needle. (Note not the turn co-ordinater as they don't always work). Someone has mentioned rudder to oppose the turn needle - the CFS technique mention ''foot into the empy space'' which means if the turn needle is to the left then it's a spin to the left. The instrument will have a big black space on the right side as the needle is stuck on the left stop and this is the side where you push the rudder. Simple, and it works. If spinnning regularly, the aircraft should have a turn and slip IMHO. A club I instructed at has the turn co-ordinators changed on the two PA28-140s as they were spun occasionally.

Thankfully, no one has has promoted the ''standard spin recovery'' - which does not exist. If you are flying a type cleared for spinning then you must know that type's recovery technique. They mostly similar (apart form a few oddities) but subtley different to have an effect if the wrong technique is applied. Some may delay the recovery slightly, but some may actually prevent recovery. The aforemention PARE is a form od standard recovery, but I wouldn't recommend it. Also, someone may mention the Beags-Muller technique which was designed as a standard emergency recovery. But again, this won't work on all types including a couple of common ones used for aerobatic training.

Also someone mention the film ''Spinning Modern Aircraft'' which although was made in the 60s and heavily features Jet Provosts and Gants, is still very relevant. this was updated in the 90s by ''The Spin Explained'' featuring the Tucano which is a fantastic film and explains everything you would need to know in 30 minutes. Both of these films are available to buy from SSVC, but are very expensive.

[Pilot DAR]

make significant changes to their fleet.

And possibly instructing staff....

but some may actually prevent recovery

Not in certified GA aircraft, which are required to conform to:

.....It shall not be possible to obtain uncontrollable spins by means of any possible use of the controls.....