Anyone been to Samedan in Switzerland?

[Contacttower]

Does anyone have any experience of flying into this airport?

Looks like a interesting place especially for visiting St Moritz.

[sycamore]

Search in `Biz-jets`; there`s a lot on accidents there,and also links to changes/briefings applicable.Also links to various u-tube videos...

[Contacttower]

Thanks...I had noticed a number of Biz Jet forum threads...just wondering if anyone has been in with a light piston?

[IO540]

I'd say it's a VFR airport :) Here is a pic from FL129:

http://i101.photobucket.com/albums/m74/peterh337/samedan-1.jpg

[Jan Olieslagers]

I have been there, but always driving, never flying. It is a cosy place enough, and clean as clean like everything in Switzerland. The bar is nice, too ("Kerosinstübli", they call it). I've always wondered at the total lack of navaids, though; it is indeed a VFR place. Queer, given the rather classy planes they mostly get. But perhaps it would be a hard place for implementing an instrument approach anyway.

[Chilli Monster]

I've been in there 3 times in the last month, though in an SET, not a piston.

Yes - definitely VFR. In a single piston, unless you have an IR and Oxygen the best arrival route is through the valleys and via the Maloja pass. From Maloja you can fly an approach descending into the valley which is almost straight in (there's a slight curve, not much. It's right to left in the posted picture).

If you can get high then FL130 from the north towards Maloja and then once you've identified the right valley (easy in the summer because you have the lakes, not so easy this time of year as everything's white!) it's relatively straight forward.

The nice thing about it is that the surrounding valleys lower down can have mist in them, yet Samedan is beautifully in the clear. From there access to St Moritz is only 15-20 minutes by car or taxi. Just rememeber it's Switzerland and everything's priced accordingly, though I can put you on to a reasonably priced B&B in Samedan itself.

[IO540]

Few more here (http://s101.photobucket.com/albums/m74/peterh337/) and here (http://www.peter2000.co.uk/aviation/index.html) :) But no more of Samedan that I recall.

I had to fly at FL129 (VFR, pre-IR) because Zurich does not allow CAS transits into its FL130-base Class C over the Alps. One can perfectly understand that policy; you can see the air is thick with 747 traffic at FL130 :) :) :ugh:

[AN2 Driver]

I had to fly at FL129 (VFR, pre-IR) because Zurich does not allow CAS transits into its FL130-base Class C over the Alps. One can perfectly understand that policy; you can see the air is thick with 747 traffic at FL130

Not so much 747's but FA18's, F5's and PC7-9's. If they have no good reason, they will let you fly higher if you talk to Zürich Delta.

Does anyone have any experience of flying into this airport?

Samedan is pretty straightforward if you are used to fly in the mountains. There are several routes into it, the mentioned route via Maloja one of them, primarily from the South or if you have to cross the Alps in IMC and let down in the south of Switzerland. Otherwise, there are routes via the Julier pass or Flüela (watch restricted airspace between Zernetz and Samedan) or Albula pass.

The big issue for SEP up there is density altitude. The airfield is at 5600 ft. In summer, DA's up to 8000 ft are the rule, not the exception (at about 25°C). So the question is not how to get in mostly but how to get out. There have been several accidents up there due to people not being too much aware of this issue.

Considering this, take off from Samedan needs good thinking ahead in Summer especcially but also generally. You'll need to mix in order to get the maximum power your engine will deliver up there. If you fly a turbocharged plane, you'll have more of that than if not. You might need to reduce load, so 4 people and full tanks in most SEP is a non starter. If you want to be careful and have never flown in the mountains, you might want to think to take an introduction flight with one of the Swiss flight schools, all of them know that place inside out.

Especcially in winter, be sure to consult the tarif list before you head up there. It is NOT a cheap place to fly into and the parking fee goes up up and away after 2 hours....

Best regards
AN2 Driver.

[The Hat]

I was there 3 weeks ago in a 114B (non turbo) If you are coming from the North you can go via the Julier Pass (min abt 8500ft.)
The valley is easy to find, just turn left at Chur.
I paid CHF 110 for abt 1.5hrs (its more expensive than Zurich!)
As already mentioned above, in the summer you have to be careful but I'm sure that you would have already done your performance calcs to make sure that you can get out again.....
The mixing of the traffic is not really 2 bad. You just need to be on your game. We are no 2 behind a legacy and a 7 x was behind us.
If you have not done any mountain flying before then it is definitely worth the investment to take someone who has. It is surprising how many valleys look the same when the weather is coming in and you are under pressure. Take the wrong one and that big piece of granite just gets biger and bigger.
What is very interesting is seeing how the professionals in there shinny jets also make silly radio / reporting mistakes when you put them in a VFR environment such as Samedan. As a lowly PPL it brought a smile to my face and just goes to show that we are all human after all.

[AN2 Driver]

I paid CHF 110 for abt 1.5hrs (its more expensive than Zurich!)

That might change fast. Zurich is trying to kick out small planes with horrendous fees coming April, but it appears they have run into trouble with the FOCA, decision should come up the next few days. If it should go through, Zurich will be up to about 150 - 200 Euros for an international landing.

[Less Hair]

Speaking about spending money: There's a fantastic old school five star hotel at Sils Maria. Not far from Samedan and certainly a very nice place to stay. You'll see it on your right inbound from the Maloja pass. Spent some days there last fall.

Hotel Waldhaus Sils Maria / St. Moritz (http://www.waldhaus-sils.ch/en/index.php)

[Contacttower]

Thanks to all who have posted. Chilli Monster did you have to do some sort of briefing or test before being allowed to fly there?

Also wondering what the weather is like during the winter, as others have noted there was one recent high profile accident involving a bizjet landing in bad weather, but looking at pictures of the place and considering that a lot of jets go in and out during the ski season it must get reasonable weather a lot of the time otherwise people wouldn't use it presumably?

[Chilli Monster]

There is an online briefing and test on the airport website - Engadin Airport St. Moritz Airlines: News (http://www.engadin-airport.ch). It's for jet and multi-engined turboprop operators but it doesn't do any harm doing it. As for the weather, take a look on the same website at their two webcams. When it's nice (and they reckon on 280 days of sunshine a year) it's gorgeous - last time I saw a sky as blue as you get there was Greenland!

If the weather is bad, and you're not familiar - go somewhere else. On a clear day it's easy. With scattered cloud it's still doable so long as the vis is good and the holes in the clouds are big enough to drop through. In poor vis and low cloud - forget it. You have to stay aware of where you are in relation to both the adjacent mountains and the valley floor - there a couple of protusions that could catch you out.

And when you get there, especially in winter, don't leave any drinks in the aircraft overnight. Ms16 produces really good ice lollies :) The other thing is when it's busy they park stuff up to and including Citation size on the grass area west of the 03 threshold - which isn't grass but graded snow on top of ice. It feels weird to taxy on but not impossible.

[Contacttower]

280 a year...thats more than 75%! Well it looks like its worth giving it go. :cool:

[IO540]

I've done a good number of Alps crossings and the 2004 one on which that pic was taken was one of just two which were fairly clear of cloud. On that occassion I was stuck at Wangen-Lachen for a few days waiting for the wx over the Alps to clear. The weather definitely got a lot worse after I got the IR in 2006 :) and I have done hardly any crossings in that area where the overcast was not solid. So I can see a lot of "commercial" traffic will be bending the rules getting into Samedan, doing a DIY descent into that valley to get below the cloud. The temptation is huge.

[vanHorck]

IO is that pic at the full resolution? If not is there a chance of a link to the full res one?

Thx

B

[IO540]

I put the untouched original here (http://www.zen74158.zen.co.uk/odds/CIMG0910.JPG). It could do with some photoshop work, to take out the colour cast etc.

[Chilli Monster]

I have done hardly any crossings in that area where the overcast was not solid. So I can see a lot of "commercial" traffic will be bending the rules getting into Samedan, doing a DIY descent into that valley to get below the cloud.

So speaks the expert who's never been in there :rolleyes:

Yesterdays webcam views - Sky Clear
Todays webcam views - Sky Clear

2 out of 3 of my recent arrivals - Sky Clear

I've been sat on the ground there with cloud forming in the valley below the mountaintops - no movements, nobody "bending the rules".

[silverknapper]

I have done hardly any crossings in that area where the overcast was not solid. So I can see a lot of "commercial" traffic will be bending the rules getting into Samedan, doing a DIY descent into that valley to get below the cloud. The temptation is huge.

Garbage. Utter garbage.
No one I know has ever ever pushed their luck into SMV. It's a very clear decision. Certainly many people launch if the weather is on the borderline but have no hesitation in diverting once actuals are given nearer the time which aren't satisfactory. Go flying near ZRH or GVA on a winter Saturday or Sunday and you'll hear a few diversions from Samedan or Sion if the wx is poor. I'm talking every week, not just the odd occasion you happen to have flown over there.
I'm not saying one or two dubious individuals don't push their luck but 'a lot' is just garbage.
Incidentally I have had a good success rate in weather conditions for Sion. And from colleagues I believe the same applies to Samedan. They really do seem to have far more good days than poor. And Samedan on a good day looks like an absolute dream.

[vanHorck]

Chilly Monsta

There are plenty of diligent people (including pilots) around, but we would not be human if some of us (pilots) were not slightly less diligent....

I' m sure you were not lucky seeing no one bust the minimums, but it does not mean minimums don't get busted....

Pretty sure that's what IO was referring to..

Yes Samedam does look like a dream on a VFR day.... a view like the one in IO's picture is why I love flying

[IO540]

The retouched full version is here (http://www.zen74158.zen.co.uk/odds/samedan.jpg)

The Photobucket pic above had been updated.

[AN2 Driver]

Silverknapper and Chilli Monster

it has been due to a significant accident rate that Samedan now has to introduce things like familiarisation flights and pilots briefings on a compulsory basis. I hate to say, there have been too many pushing their luck up there.

You are very right regarding the weather, it is predominantly good up there. Yet, when it's bad, it can get from "flyably bad" to closed and back very fast. I know that 90% say of the users up there know what they are doing and how, but some of them don't or think they do and end up in a heap like in other interesting places which bite if you tease too much.

Samedan, especcially for someone who has not been there, is an airfield where a lot of factors have to be fine when going there the first time. CAVOK for a first timer is not really a luxury.

[Chilli Monster]

it has been due to a significant accident rate

5 since 1970, 2 of which (1970 & 2007) were attributed to aircraft technical failure (2007 being non-fatal, purely a nosewheel collapse).

I would query the use of the word "significant". Yes, like anywhere out of the ordinary it will bite you if you don't give it the respect it deserves, but most people do that - contrary to IO540's assertion that lots of operators bend the rules going in there.

I found Samedan a lot easier than Saanen - that's for sure!

[ElectraII]

I'm not sure I should do that... but let's say this is only a collection of letter and numbers and every individual is going to use it as he believes is appropriate:


Flüela Pass FLUEL N46 44.95 E009 56.77
Susch SUSCH N46 44.95 E010 04.72
Zernez ZERNE N46 41.73 E010 05.47
Brail BRAI N46 39.20 E010 02.00
Flab S-chanf FLAB N46 37.08 E009 59.88
E Point LSZS LASZSE N46 34.62 E009 55.37
Rwy 21 LSZS LSZS2 N46 32.45 E009 53.37


Rwy 03 LSZS LZSZ3 N46 31.63 E009 52.72
Innfall (St. Moritz) INFAL N46 29.93 E009 50.97
W Point See LSZS LSZSW N46 29.75 E009 50.98
Surlej (Silvaplana) SURLE N46 27.58 E009 48.13
Sils i.E. SILS N46 26.07 E009 46.05
Maloja MALOJ N46 24.10 E009 41.77
Vicosoprano VICO N46 21.10 E009 37.27
Chiavenna CHIAV N46 19.50 E009 24.15


Septimer Pass SEPTI N46 25.17 E009 38.12
Julier Pass JULIE N46 28.27 E009 43.67
Albula Pass ALBUL N46 35.28 E009 52.02


S Point LSZS LSZSS N46 30.00 E009 53.43
Bernina Pass BERNI N46 24.67 E010 00.87
Poschiavo POSCH N46 19.43 E010 03.60
Tiramo TIRAN N46 12.92 E010 09.72

Remember: VFR only!

[Flying Lawyer]

Looks like a interesting place especially for visiting St Moritz.

St Moritz is well worth visiting, especially in the winter months.
And you have the opportunity to ride the Cresta Run - one of the most exhilarating experiences in the world:
99tGXZfeGps

Top riders reach speeds close to 80 mph/128 kph over the ¾ mile course (I was never in that league.)
Beginners start from 'Junction' which is abeam the clubhouse about one-third of the way down the run - large white building on the left 30 seconds into the video - and use slower skeleton toboggans.
‘Shuttlecock’, a left-hand bank about half-way down the Run acts as a safety-valve. The ice-wall is intentionally slightly convex so that, unless you’re in control and able to steer around, you are thrown out of the Run .....

http://www.cresta-run.com/images/photos/Ryan06%20003.jpg
If he doesn't let go of that toboggan it's going to be a painful landing!

http://www.cresta-run.com/images/photos/Ryan06%20025.jpg
Oh, No!!

..... into a specially prepared falling area made of snow and (as the season goes on, smelly) straw -

http://www.cresta-run.com/images/photos/Ryan06%20034.jpg
He’s definitely in there somewhere.


The Cresta Run is one of the few genuinely amateur sports left and I highly recommend trying it if you get the opportunity. (The Club offers temporary membership.) The first time is a bit frightening but it's a fantastic experience. Anyone who says they weren’t frightened at all the first time they went down is very brave - or bull-sh***ing. ;)
There are inherent risks, but there have been very few deaths in the Club's 125 year history.

Another video here: Cresta Run 125th Anniversary (http://vimeo.com/10586800)


FL

(Edit)
I've just remembered that the Run closed last Sunday so it's too late for this year - but you can always try it next year. :)

[dont overfil]

I'm not surprised there's so much brown snow.
D.O

[FullWings]

I've flown gliders and light aircraft out of Samaden in the summer and found it a very welcoming and friendly place. The airport even owns a winch and has professional drivers! (A bit like LGW having one...)

Scenery is spectacular and accommodation/eating/drinking in the town of Samaden nearby is not too expensive (if you want to pay more, go to St. Moritz).

It is a VFR airport but I have witnessed light twins coming and going into OVC at 3-400' AGL using homebrew GPS routings - not for the fainthearted!

There are some unusual wind effects, in that the valley breeze often blows *down* the valley in the area of the airfield, due to the deep valleys on the Italian side overwhelming the breezes over on the Swiss side.

You can enter/exit up/down the Inn Valley, which ends up passing Innsbruck (surprise!) then leaves the Alps into Bavaria. You can do this in conditions that are maybe less than CAVOK (ahem!) YMMV, AYOR, etc.

Overall, a really nice place with a good weather record and plenty to do and see while you're there. Only a short hop down to the Italian lakes, too.

[Contacttower]

Are there any plans to introduce a GPS approach? Seems like an obvious thing to do.

[IO540]

I suspect the missed approach procedure might be "interesting".

Also I wonder whether the loss of some satellites once you are deep in that valley is an issue. It could well be.

[Shorrick Mk2]

Parking availability. Make sure you call ahead.

[neilgeddes]

It could be a beautiful seaplane trip up there from Como, though I think you need special permission to land on Swiss lakes :oh:

[Jan Olieslagers]

For as far as facebook is to be believed, there's only a single recognised water runway in Switzerland:
Seit 1957 starten und landen bei Wangen-Lachen ausserdem Wasserflugzeug (http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wasserflugzeug)e auf dem heute einzigen Wasserflugplatz in der Schweiz. ICAO code = LSAW

Probably water operations elsewhere may be available at special request.

And, having been to Samedan, I can't imagine the aerodrome capable of handling seaplanes.