Anyone been to Samedan in Switzerland?
Fly Conventional Gear
Thread Starter
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Winchester
Posts: 1,600
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Anyone been to Samedan in Switzerland?
Does anyone have any experience of flying into this airport?
Looks like a interesting place especially for visiting St Moritz.
Looks like a interesting place especially for visiting St Moritz.
Search in `Biz-jets`; there`s a lot on accidents there,and also links to changes/briefings applicable.Also links to various u-tube videos...
I have been there, but always driving, never flying. It is a cosy place enough, and clean as clean like everything in Switzerland. The bar is nice, too ("Kerosinstübli", they call it). I've always wondered at the total lack of navaids, though; it is indeed a VFR place. Queer, given the rather classy planes they mostly get. But perhaps it would be a hard place for implementing an instrument approach anyway.
Join Date: Oct 1999
Location: Anywhere
Posts: 2,212
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I've been in there 3 times in the last month, though in an SET, not a piston.
Yes - definitely VFR. In a single piston, unless you have an IR and Oxygen the best arrival route is through the valleys and via the Maloja pass. From Maloja you can fly an approach descending into the valley which is almost straight in (there's a slight curve, not much. It's right to left in the posted picture).
If you can get high then FL130 from the north towards Maloja and then once you've identified the right valley (easy in the summer because you have the lakes, not so easy this time of year as everything's white!) it's relatively straight forward.
The nice thing about it is that the surrounding valleys lower down can have mist in them, yet Samedan is beautifully in the clear. From there access to St Moritz is only 15-20 minutes by car or taxi. Just rememeber it's Switzerland and everything's priced accordingly, though I can put you on to a reasonably priced B&B in Samedan itself.
Yes - definitely VFR. In a single piston, unless you have an IR and Oxygen the best arrival route is through the valleys and via the Maloja pass. From Maloja you can fly an approach descending into the valley which is almost straight in (there's a slight curve, not much. It's right to left in the posted picture).
If you can get high then FL130 from the north towards Maloja and then once you've identified the right valley (easy in the summer because you have the lakes, not so easy this time of year as everything's white!) it's relatively straight forward.
The nice thing about it is that the surrounding valleys lower down can have mist in them, yet Samedan is beautifully in the clear. From there access to St Moritz is only 15-20 minutes by car or taxi. Just rememeber it's Switzerland and everything's priced accordingly, though I can put you on to a reasonably priced B&B in Samedan itself.
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: EuroGA.org
Posts: 13,787
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I had to fly at FL129 (VFR, pre-IR) because Zurich does not allow CAS transits into its FL130-base Class C over the Alps. One can perfectly understand that policy; you can see the air is thick with 747 traffic at FL130
Does anyone have any experience of flying into this airport?
The big issue for SEP up there is density altitude. The airfield is at 5600 ft. In summer, DA's up to 8000 ft are the rule, not the exception (at about 25°C). So the question is not how to get in mostly but how to get out. There have been several accidents up there due to people not being too much aware of this issue.
Considering this, take off from Samedan needs good thinking ahead in Summer especcially but also generally. You'll need to mix in order to get the maximum power your engine will deliver up there. If you fly a turbocharged plane, you'll have more of that than if not. You might need to reduce load, so 4 people and full tanks in most SEP is a non starter. If you want to be careful and have never flown in the mountains, you might want to think to take an introduction flight with one of the Swiss flight schools, all of them know that place inside out.
Especcially in winter, be sure to consult the tarif list before you head up there. It is NOT a cheap place to fly into and the parking fee goes up up and away after 2 hours....
Best regards
AN2 Driver.
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: switzerland
Posts: 34
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I was there 3 weeks ago in a 114B (non turbo) If you are coming from the North you can go via the Julier Pass (min abt 8500ft.)
The valley is easy to find, just turn left at Chur.
I paid CHF 110 for abt 1.5hrs (its more expensive than Zurich!)
As already mentioned above, in the summer you have to be careful but I'm sure that you would have already done your performance calcs to make sure that you can get out again.....
The mixing of the traffic is not really 2 bad. You just need to be on your game. We are no 2 behind a legacy and a 7 x was behind us.
If you have not done any mountain flying before then it is definitely worth the investment to take someone who has. It is surprising how many valleys look the same when the weather is coming in and you are under pressure. Take the wrong one and that big piece of granite just gets biger and bigger.
What is very interesting is seeing how the professionals in there shinny jets also make silly radio / reporting mistakes when you put them in a VFR environment such as Samedan. As a lowly PPL it brought a smile to my face and just goes to show that we are all human after all.
The valley is easy to find, just turn left at Chur.
I paid CHF 110 for abt 1.5hrs (its more expensive than Zurich!)
As already mentioned above, in the summer you have to be careful but I'm sure that you would have already done your performance calcs to make sure that you can get out again.....
The mixing of the traffic is not really 2 bad. You just need to be on your game. We are no 2 behind a legacy and a 7 x was behind us.
If you have not done any mountain flying before then it is definitely worth the investment to take someone who has. It is surprising how many valleys look the same when the weather is coming in and you are under pressure. Take the wrong one and that big piece of granite just gets biger and bigger.
What is very interesting is seeing how the professionals in there shinny jets also make silly radio / reporting mistakes when you put them in a VFR environment such as Samedan. As a lowly PPL it brought a smile to my face and just goes to show that we are all human after all.
Last edited by The Hat; 4th Mar 2011 at 08:34.
I paid CHF 110 for abt 1.5hrs (its more expensive than Zurich!)
Speaking about spending money: There's a fantastic old school five star hotel at Sils Maria. Not far from Samedan and certainly a very nice place to stay. You'll see it on your right inbound from the Maloja pass. Spent some days there last fall.
Hotel Waldhaus Sils Maria / St. Moritz
Hotel Waldhaus Sils Maria / St. Moritz
Last edited by Less Hair; 4th Mar 2011 at 11:40.
Fly Conventional Gear
Thread Starter
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Winchester
Posts: 1,600
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Thanks to all who have posted. Chilli Monster did you have to do some sort of briefing or test before being allowed to fly there?
Also wondering what the weather is like during the winter, as others have noted there was one recent high profile accident involving a bizjet landing in bad weather, but looking at pictures of the place and considering that a lot of jets go in and out during the ski season it must get reasonable weather a lot of the time otherwise people wouldn't use it presumably?
Also wondering what the weather is like during the winter, as others have noted there was one recent high profile accident involving a bizjet landing in bad weather, but looking at pictures of the place and considering that a lot of jets go in and out during the ski season it must get reasonable weather a lot of the time otherwise people wouldn't use it presumably?
Join Date: Oct 1999
Location: Anywhere
Posts: 2,212
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
There is an online briefing and test on the airport website - Engadin Airport St. Moritz Airlines: News. It's for jet and multi-engined turboprop operators but it doesn't do any harm doing it. As for the weather, take a look on the same website at their two webcams. When it's nice (and they reckon on 280 days of sunshine a year) it's gorgeous - last time I saw a sky as blue as you get there was Greenland!
If the weather is bad, and you're not familiar - go somewhere else. On a clear day it's easy. With scattered cloud it's still doable so long as the vis is good and the holes in the clouds are big enough to drop through. In poor vis and low cloud - forget it. You have to stay aware of where you are in relation to both the adjacent mountains and the valley floor - there a couple of protusions that could catch you out.
And when you get there, especially in winter, don't leave any drinks in the aircraft overnight. Ms16 produces really good ice lollies
The other thing is when it's busy they park stuff up to and including Citation size on the grass area west of the 03 threshold - which isn't grass but graded snow on top of ice. It feels weird to taxy on but not impossible.
If the weather is bad, and you're not familiar - go somewhere else. On a clear day it's easy. With scattered cloud it's still doable so long as the vis is good and the holes in the clouds are big enough to drop through. In poor vis and low cloud - forget it. You have to stay aware of where you are in relation to both the adjacent mountains and the valley floor - there a couple of protusions that could catch you out.
And when you get there, especially in winter, don't leave any drinks in the aircraft overnight. Ms16 produces really good ice lollies
The other thing is when it's busy they park stuff up to and including Citation size on the grass area west of the 03 threshold - which isn't grass but graded snow on top of ice. It feels weird to taxy on but not impossible.
Last edited by Chilli Monster; 4th Mar 2011 at 21:52.
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: EuroGA.org
Posts: 13,787
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I've done a good number of Alps crossings and the 2004 one on which that pic was taken was one of just two which were fairly clear of cloud. On that occassion I was stuck at Wangen-Lachen for a few days waiting for the wx over the Alps to clear. The weather definitely got a lot worse after I got the IR in 2006 and I have done hardly any crossings in that area where the overcast was not solid. So I can see a lot of "commercial" traffic will be bending the rules getting into Samedan, doing a DIY descent into that valley to get below the cloud. The temptation is huge.
and I have done hardly any crossings in that area where the overcast was not solid. So I can see a lot of "commercial" traffic will be bending the rules getting into Samedan, doing a DIY descent into that valley to get below the cloud. The temptation is huge.
Join Date: Oct 1999
Location: Anywhere
Posts: 2,212
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by IO540
I have done hardly any crossings in that area where the overcast was not solid. So I can see a lot of "commercial" traffic will be bending the rules getting into Samedan, doing a DIY descent into that valley to get below the cloud.
Yesterdays webcam views - Sky Clear
Todays webcam views - Sky Clear
2 out of 3 of my recent arrivals - Sky Clear
I've been sat on the ground there with cloud forming in the valley below the mountaintops - no movements, nobody "bending the rules".
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: BFS
Posts: 1,177
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I have done hardly any crossings in that area where the overcast was not solid. So I can see a lot of "commercial" traffic will be bending the rules getting into Samedan, doing a DIY descent into that valley to get below the cloud. The temptation is huge.
No one I know has ever ever pushed their luck into SMV. It's a very clear decision. Certainly many people launch if the weather is on the borderline but have no hesitation in diverting once actuals are given nearer the time which aren't satisfactory. Go flying near ZRH or GVA on a winter Saturday or Sunday and you'll hear a few diversions from Samedan or Sion if the wx is poor. I'm talking every week, not just the odd occasion you happen to have flown over there.
I'm not saying one or two dubious individuals don't push their luck but 'a lot' is just garbage.
Incidentally I have had a good success rate in weather conditions for Sion. And from colleagues I believe the same applies to Samedan. They really do seem to have far more good days than poor. And Samedan on a good day looks like an absolute dream.
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: London
Age: 68
Posts: 1,269
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Chilly Monsta
There are plenty of diligent people (including pilots) around, but we would not be human if some of us (pilots) were not slightly less diligent....
I' m sure you were not lucky seeing no one bust the minimums, but it does not mean minimums don't get busted....
Pretty sure that's what IO was referring to..
Yes Samedam does look like a dream on a VFR day.... a view like the one in IO's picture is why I love flying
There are plenty of diligent people (including pilots) around, but we would not be human if some of us (pilots) were not slightly less diligent....
I' m sure you were not lucky seeing no one bust the minimums, but it does not mean minimums don't get busted....
Pretty sure that's what IO was referring to..
Yes Samedam does look like a dream on a VFR day.... a view like the one in IO's picture is why I love flying