Air France sentenced to translate all its manuals in..........French .

[Me Myself]

Following a court action from a minor Air France pilot's union, the airline has been sentenced to translate all of its manuals, approach plates ( common to both AF and KLM ), symbols decoding, tutorial, flight manuals, SOP's .......into french !!!
This decision is hailed as a huge victory by a fair number of pilots, leaving a whole lot others dead silent and probably speachless and very embarrassed.
AF has 6 months to comply after which it will be fined 5000 euro a day per manual not entirely translated.
This is lesson one on how to bring a global airline to its knees..........and ram some french into dutch throats !!
Why fly to the the moon when we already live in plain cloud cookoo land ?

For those interested and french fluent, I think you can fish this ruling somewhere on the net. I read it and can't stop sobbing eversince.
This no doubt, will help unemployed french pilots find a job abroad.

[Kingfisher]

" A minor union". How many do they have?

Is it seriously illegal now to have non French manuals for KLM?

How does this sit with European move towards english for aviation?

[169west]

... hopefully Chinese, Japanese and Middle-East don't do the same!

[Me Myself]

minor would mean round about 200 members among 4400 AF pilots.
Approach plates are common to both AF and KLM and of course in english.
Guess what will happen when the french have to translate the dunno how many hundred plates ? Soaring costs for one thing. This applies to every word and symbol.
Enough to drive any sane person certified crazy.

As to how this sits with the european union.......I have no clue. The french have their own way as to what is legal or not and many a time have they told Bruxelles to s.d o.f.
If any legally able Prune member has a clue, feel free to chip in.

[Agaricus bisporus]

So they'll have to carry duplicate copies in French and English?

Or is this silliness restricted to them merely making the translation, but doing nothing with it afterwards, which would be the perfect european pc insanity solution.

[Kingfisher]

Change the symbols is taking it too far especially if only 200ish pilots out of 4400 have levelled the complaint. Still the Air France print shop will be happy.

[CAPTAINNIC]

..of what i heard is that all air france pilots bluntly got from their authority an icao english level 6 without testing!!
so if this is true, they are all so much better than the rest of us and dont need this french translation ;-)

[169west]

... we need Uncle Sam, The Queen and Ms Angela have a very good conversation with Mr Nicolas ...

[shortfuel]

..of what i heard is that all air france pilots bluntly got from their authority an icao english level 6 without testing!!

Not true. By the way, French CAA (DGAC) rarely gives ICAO ELP level 6 as most of Fench ELP examiners aren't qualified to give that level.

[169west]

... jokes apart, am I the only one to see flight safety problems?

[Neptunus Rex]

Sacrebleu!
It took years to purge the Airbus manuals of 'Franglais.' Phrases like "solicitation of the brakes..." instead of "application," and many more.

Air France/KLM must surely appeal this fatuous ruling.

[LH2]

Ok, I found some links:

From AFP, in French:

AFP: Air France condamne en appel traduire en franais des documents techniques (http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp/article/ALeqM5iXBTGkpsQuOgy-V1oXJ_s7riMLng?docId=CNG.2b786df331bfbcf98736b239d2b60d8d.c5 1)

Conservative newspaper Le Figaro (in French):

Le Figaro - Flash Actu : Air France/sécurité:des pilotes en colère (http://www.lefigaro.fr/flash-actu/2010/10/07/97001-20101007FILWWW00520-air-francesecuritedes-pilotes-en-colere.php)

It is interesting to note that the reader's comments on that last article are overwhelmingly against the verdict.

Lastly, the union in question's web page (http://syndicatalter.pagesperso-orange.fr/) (hosted on a free server :rolleyes:)

I haven't been able to find the text of the sentence, but from the news clippings above the gist of it is that it has been brought under the so-called Allgood Act (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loi_Toubon), a super chauvinist law which has been causing nothing but trouble since it was enacted back in 1994. Its repeal is long overdue (notwithstanding that it should never have been passed in the first place, but there you go).

[Scapa]

Lastly, the union in question's web page (hosted on a free server )

Erm, i dont speak French, do they do a version in English? :E

[ChristiaanJ]

LH2,

The law is called the "loi Toubon" from the name of the minister involved at the time.

The conclusions of the tribunal in the earlier court case, where the complaint of these clowns was thrown out, stated among others (translation Google, tidied by myself) :

- Airline pilots can only be issued with a license if they master the English language in international aviation;

- Air France is an international airline. The pilots it hires can be assigned on any route it operates;

- Air France pilots are required, according to the terms of their employment contract, to be capable to use the documents necessary for the exercise of their profession in English, international language in the aircraft industry.


I also noted in one of the 'comments' that somebody said that any pilot not capable of reading the documentation in English should be fired immediately for "faute grave", first for having been hired under false pretenses, and secondly for being a danger to aircraft and passengers.


One may also question the mentality and motivation of a union, that uses the professional incompetence of their members as an argument to start a court case, that exposes them to public ridicule....

CJ

[Me Myself]

lh2

I'm not surprised the reader of Le Figaro would be shocked. The name Air France alone makes their blood boil, add pilots to that and it turns nuclear !

No, Air France pilots are not down right granted level 6 by the airline. They can only be tested up to 5. 6 can only be granted by the DGAC and that's outside of the compagny.

The too good law, standing for Toubon bill, bearing the name of a dubious minister who's IQ is one of a sparow.
Nevertheless, this bill has made numerous french compagny a living nightmare.
How this bill fits the european legal scenery remains to be assessed, and it very clearly needs to be done.
This ruling was made as an appeal from a 2008 ruling. The only remaining option is to go in " Cassation " meaning the ruling would have to be broken by the last legal authority.
In my opinion, this is a clear case where the law becomes illegal, but I no legal expert.
One thing is sure, it makes Air France look like the " Flintstones " and I would hope KLM goes up into a fit.
When you think the same people who made this claim are the same who would like to see a common freight department using both dutch and french crew, this is enough to make a wooden horse burst into laughter.
The dutch will have to display their utmost sense of humour.
As to me ? I need another hankie ! Sob !

[Me Myself]

Christian

I am so much with you mate. They should get their marching papers NOW !
This whole thing is an embarrassing farce.

[3pointlanding]

Haven't you listened to French ATIS, first French then English? Like it or not, they can translate all they want, they will still have to comply with ICAO and that is English is the official language of ICAO.

[zomerkoning]

This is all actually quite sad and is the result of a very small group of individuals within a company who just want to stand out, damn the consequences..

As for the KLM side of AF/KLM, I don't think this will apply to us... Yes we do use the same navigation maps and plates, but that's pretty much it. Different Operation Manuals etc etc and off course different AOC's.

A lot of people see AF and KLM as one big company while in the operational part of things they are two very separate companies... (company ethos: 1 group, 2 companies, 3 businesses )..

[ChristiaanJ]

Another issue (that I have some personal knowledge of) is, that once French translations are available, only those are used, and the personnel (not only the pilots) start to forget the international (English) terminology, or at least certainly not keep it up-to-date.

The result in terms of confusion, misunderstanding, incomprehension and outright errors can easily be imagined.

The fact that French is not really a technical language doesn't help matters....

Oh, and another point (again from experience).
Translation is rarely done by people who are also experts in the particular field.
Even highly professional translators rarely know the exact terminology used in a particular industry, or - within that industry - by a particular company.
And since translation is nearly always done as an afterthought, and on the cheap, and rarely closely re-read by the client, some remarkable bludners and erruers do sometimes slip through...

Oh, one more....
Documentation (such as the approach plates mentioned earlier) has this nasty habit of continuously being amended, and evolving over time.
Unless the same organisation that maintains the documentation also keeps the translations up-to-date at the same time, doc and translation soon get out of sync....

Having Air France translating approach plates produced elsewhere is bound to result not only in operational problems, but probably also in legal ones....

Not for nothing does the French BEA state on the first page of their English-language accident reports that the translation is provided as a service, but that the only valid document is the French original.
The same will obviously apply to any English originals translated by Air France... only the original will have legal status.

CJ

[MurphyWasRight]

Oh, and another point (again from experience).
Translation is rarely done by people who are also experts in the particular field.

I can speak from personal experience on the "expertise" of technical translation:
A long time ago a (potential - but that is another story) girlfriend called me in a panic.
She had just landed a rush freelance translation contract for an American textile machinery company (I did mention this was a long time ago) that needed to provide French manuals for a high tech loom they had sold to a former French colony in Africa.

Although she was truly multilingual, fluent in Russion, French and English she was totally non technical and had discovered that most of the technical terms did not appear in any dictionary she had access to.

I had exactly one semester of high school French but was in the computer field. The manuals were full of the typical barerly readable prose produced by engineers forced to write something. I could understand most of it, although never having seen the machine some context was lacking.

The "translation" was done in 2 steps, I first re-wrote sections using words that -could- be found in the dictionary and she then translated that into grammatically correct but likely totally baffling French.

If accuracy was in question she would translate the French back in to Egnlish.

Still wonder what the customer thought of the French version of:

"The machine for the interpreting of long ribbons of paper featuring small holes" (aka paper tape reader)

[169west]

Christiaan ... you've got the picture! 100% with you!

[Capetonian]

Translation is fraught with difficulty. I once contracted out some manuals to be translated from English into Spanish - for use in Argentina.

One of the words which needed translation was 'shell' in the sense of an empty mask to be filled in. It makes perfect sense in English and was literally translated as 'concha' which in Spanish means a shell as is 'she sells sea shells on the sea shore'. Whilst in Castillian Spanish this would have been a little odd and nonsensical, in much of Latin America 'concha' is the vulgar word for the female genitals, much the same as the 'c' word in English.

200 or so of these manuals had been printed, there was very little I could except use it to get a laugh!

[Daermon ATC]

That one gave me a good laugh! :}

Another known example is that of the Mitsubishi Pajero (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mitsubishi_Pajero) which is sold in spanish speaking countries as "Montero" as the original term is slang for "masturbator"

:rolleyes:

Back on topic, I hope Air France wins an appeal on that ...

[FLEXPWR]

Can the French get even more ridiculous?
After accidents from lack of understanding, dual language spoken on French ATC, where the non-french have not got a clue of what is going on, it seems AF is not getting the "international" picture...

Maybe the same union(s) will also demand that weather forecasts, sigmets, be translated for them EVERYWHERE they land...imagine landing in JFK!

How about the placards and labels in the cockpit? "Flaps", "Landing gear", "Thrust" are TOTALLY UNACCEPTABLE! They must be called and labelled as "Volets, Train d'atterrissage, Manettes de poussee"...:}

I think the best solution is for the rest of the world to adapt to the french and learn french language..:E

I will not make myself popular, but whoever is behind these pushy demands have no place in aviation and live outside reality. It looks to me as just an exercise to demonstrate how much power a union has, and protect a few incompetent who can't make the effort of learning the basics of aviation english.
Once again, the french system (generally speaking) put the bar high in studies and diplomas, and then makes sure that nobody will ever be challenged by actually using what they have learned...

That reminds me of a conversation with a French DGCA official, asking if we could perform simulator checkrides in english, now that everyone in Europe has the ICAO Level 4 or above. His answer was "certainly not, the pilots have their Level 4 or 5, and there is no reason the challenge it and make their sim session harder than what it already is by speaking in a non-native language.." :eek::eek:

So it seems this will go on, and the french attitude is yet again not ready to change one bit.

By the way, I am french....but I dont say it too loud...

Enough said.

Flex

[boofhead]

There is precedent; Korean translated all the technical documents on their airplanes into Korean for their pilots. Then they needed the same documents for the foreign pilots on staff, so did they use the original documents? No, they translated the Korean versions back into English! You can imagine the result...
It looks as if this will be a similar case.

[ChristiaanJ]

MurphyWasRight,

Many thanks for your tale... brings back many memories.... !

.. she was totally non technical and had discovered that most of the technical terms did not appear in any dictionary she had access to.Totally classic... !
And even if the word is there, the meaning provided is irrelevant for the technical jargon which happens to have adopted that particular word for something completely different.

The manuals were full of the typical barerly readable prose produced by engineers forced to write something.And there you've hit another classic problem!
Documentation is either written by tech writers - who have only a very limited knowledge of what they're writing about - or by engineers who may know very well what they're writing about, but don't know how to write understandably.

In that respect, French has one more lovely problem... (this is mostly in French > English translation).
French secondary schools teach you to write "literary" French, not "practical" (or, if you like "technical") French.
One of the rules you get hammered into you is not to repeat yourself in the same sentence or even paragraph, so you desperately insert synonyms and convoluted phrasings....

So when referring to the same "thing" in the same paragraph, two or three different words are used, which on closer examination all mean exactly the same thing.
What's the difference between "tangage" et "profondeur", in an aircraft context? None.... both translate to "pitch".... but woe betide you if you had used the same word twice in a paragraph :ugh:

CJ

[Capot]

We paid a lot of money for a translation into French of a complete preliminary design report for a new airport in Tunisia (early 1980's...)

I'm an ex-interpreter in French, and read through the entire document failing to notice that throughout the word "apron" had been translated into "tablier".

I never really lived it down.

[JW411]

Someone asked earlier what they do in Belgium. I can tell you. All manuals etc were in English. Certainly, all of our pilots be they Flemish, French or German speaking had to be competent in English. Everyone else in the company had to have a working knowledge of English.

Some of my friends told me that all pilots in the Belgian Air Force had to be tri-lingual. All flying matters were conducted in English. That stopped the French speakers complaining that the Dutch speakers had an advantage and vice versa!

Incidentally, I remember being told by an Indian captain that communication on the Sub Continent would be pretty difficult without English. He reckoned that there were 94 languages in the old India but all of them had English speakers.

[ChristiaanJ]

....failing to notice that throughout the word "apron" had been translated into "tablier".You're excused..... it's not entirely wrong.

From Wikipedia:
"Le tablier est la partie qui supporte les voies de circulation sur un pont . C'est la partie en caillebotis d'un passage surélevé."

It's also used more generally to designate a road-bed, and so would be valid for the 'bed' put in place before putting down the asphalt or concrete for the top coat of the apron itself.

It occasionally amazes me how "poor" languages are really in terms of words...
So many words are "re-used" for different concepts, sometimes literally, sometimes figuratively, and even more often in specialist jargon.

In our own language, we usually sort them out from context... but the moment you try to translate, you're in trouble....
A "chémin de fer" is not an "iron path", it's not even a "rail track", it's a "railway". (OK, overly simplified example, but you'll find the same everywhere.)

Amazingly, the Google translation program is slowly but steadily getting more and more of it right.

CJ

[flydive1]

After accidents from lack of understanding, dual language spoken on French ATC, where the non-french have not got a clue of what is going on, it seems AF is not getting the "international" picture...

Well, I quite often hear Italian spoken on Italian ATC, Spanish in Spain, Greek in Greece, American in USA :), and so on. (Do not like it)

That said, I also find that translating the manuals is a waste of time and money.

[ChristiaanJ]

How about the placards and labels in the cockpit? "Flaps", "Landing gear", "Thrust" are TOTALLY UNACCEPTABLE! They must be called and labelled as "Volets, Train d'atterrissage, Manettes de poussee"...:}Not sure about the cockpit (I'll check), but on Concorde all the stencils on the outside panels, doors, etc. were in both English and French (I'll try to find some photos).
Made sense, because most of the ground personnel would not have had any English at that time...
Not sure if it's still the same on the current Air France fleet, though....

CJ

[ChristiaanJ]

Well, I quite often hear Italian spoken on Italian ATC, Spanish in Spain, Greek in Greece, American in USA :), and so on. (Do not like it)I totally agree.....
"American in USA" ... (not to mention "English, or what passes for it in the UK").

One problem is that "native speakers" think they're automatically speaking intelligeable English....

As to using the local languages on small secondary airports, or little GA 'airfields', yes, I can't really have an issue with that.

But using it in the busy TMA of an international airport, to me, is criminal.

CJ

[Capt Turbo]

3Point; If you have ever seen ICAO docs you will find the note about French being also official ICAO language. Ever wondered why haze is abbreviated BR (like brume in French) or why you have to call Mayday or PAN (like m´aidé = help me or panne = kaput in French).
The many students having taken their Airbus courses in Toulouse can surely testify that a solid knowledge of French would have averted some confusing moments with their local instructors speaking a charming Peter Sellers English.
In China the expats have a set of OMs in English translated from Chinese, but the Chinese version is still the legally valid one. The bail out is that the original (English) FCOMs that came with the aircraft are still on board, so one captain can read the legal stuff and the other the tech stuff :E.
Have done PCs with AF pilots; only French spoken and they still did a fine job out of it. Now, how can that be? In LH they revert to German when the sh## hits the fan. Is that unnatural? And in SK, with a mix of three languages in the cockpit, they use "SASperanto" on a daily basis.

[jimjim1]

MurphyWasRight
"The machine for the interpreting of long ribbons of paper featuring small holes" (aka paper tape reader)
:D

ChristiaanJ
Amazingly, the Google translation program is slowly but steadily getting more and more of it right.

I understand that it works rather differently from previous machine translation efforts. It seems they have a database of documents that have been conventionally translated and they just do dumb (in the sense that they do no linguistic analysis) matching against the big pile of documents.

Voila!

[MurphyWasRight]

Boofhead notes:

No, they translated the Korean versions back into English! You can imagine the result...


I once used a German IC (Integrated Circuit, have to be carefull with the acronyms as well) that was second sourced by a Korean company.

The English data sheet from the Korean company was almost but not quite understandable if you were already very familiar with the part.

By comparing data sheets I divined the following likely history:

Original data sheet - German, written by tech writer not familiar with the part.

English data sheet from German company. Readable if you waited for the verbs at the end.

Korean data sheet - Likely translated from the English version due to common quirks in tables. (but I dont read Korean so not sure.)

English data sheet from Korean company : Translated quite literally from the Korean by a person for whom English was a (distant) second language.

It would actually be interesting to compare Google versions of this, I suspect Google would easily win if given the original German.

[PBL]

I am not surprised that the Loi Toubon is being applied to ops manuals. But I am surprised that it has taken 16 years for someone to notice that it applies to AF.

I was working in France, at a research institute in computer science, when the law was passed. Believe me, everyone I knew thought it was *obviously* stupid. There are thousands of international scientific conferences taking place in France each year (for good reason; France is a great scientific nation) and according to the Loi Toubon all of the proceedings of each one shall appear in French. Considering that practically all the papers were submitted in English (since Latin has gone out of fashion in recent years), including those from the most prominent French researchers, the question arose as to who was going to translate them and how they were to be paid.

Everyone thought about it for two seconds, laughed, and quickly forgot the issue. As one must do with an obviously impractical decret. But a quasi-state airline can apparently be bullied, even though it's 16 years after the fact.

PBL

[fdr]

vive la différence!
would think this is a rather poetic outcome.

“It is hard to free fools from the chains they revere.” Voltaire

At least it is a pleasant language, and will make for interesting, if not useful, reading. Doubt Jeppesen/EAG-Navtech etc are going to be happy providing charts to them given the liability.
:O

[flowman]

So what's next? Ryanair manuals in Gaelic? Maybe BA should have their's in Welsh. There must be a case for Iberia to supply manuals in Catalan, and don't even contemplate how many manuals a Belgian airline would need :eek:

[Capetonian]

There must be a case for Iberia to supply manuals in Catalan..... and Gallego, Euskera, Asturiano, Valenciano, Mallorquin ...

[Reinhardt]

Yes, english is one of the main languages in aviation... which allows a lot of not-so-good individuals from Australia, Canada, US, UK, to start a pilot career with a definite advantage, thus concealing much of their other weaknesses with their "command of english".
And some of those nations (Ireland, Australia, NZ) enjoy being called "great aviation nations" (because they do supply a big percentage of the pilot workforces of many companies in the world ) ... when they don"t build any aircraft, choppers, fighters, rockets or satellites.
And in the opposite France, Italy, Russia, Israel, even Romania or Switzerland, build a lot of aerospace hardware, feature many Technical Universities and Research Establishments, but their pilots have to work a little bit harder by learning another language (and for some countries, like Belgium, Switzerland, South Africa that will make a total of three)
Now would you consider all those pure-english-speaking pilots, from the previously mentioned countries, having to perform their duties in another language (german, or italian) should it be required by law ? they usually elude the question by saying that its not the situation, and therefore is not to be considered.
We all know that the answer is a big NO, simply because they COULD NOT.
Should it be required by an hypothetical change of the international situation, then maybe a different and more educated branch of their population would have to come forward to fill the cockpits.
And thanks again for ChristiaanJ, for saying that french isn't a technical language... probably the most stupid assertion of all those pages. He will be forgotten anyway - being obviously deprieved of any academic background, I can understand he missed a lot of it, and has no idea of what has been written or achieved in so many fields.
He also displayed in his post the now usual trick, when missing in technical knowledge, to call "possible legal reasons" for help...

[marsipulami]

The solution is very simple, if the French continue to insist on the fact to only use the French language in their documention, fine! But this should limit them to only operate within their own country.

Leave the rest to the Dutch part.....:eek::ugh:

[D'pirate]

English has become the language of aviation by historical default. For my own part I could happily operate in three different languages-one of which happens to be French (Canadian version!). I am, however, an English speaker by birth.

The safety case is irrefutable that their should be one language used for communications and it happens to be English, by rights it should be Mandarin! I sympathise with all those who have to struggle with English but at least (unlike French) "La Mot Juste" is available! Tin hat on. :rolleyes:

[Daermon ATC]

There must be a case for Iberia to supply manuals in Catalan..... and Gallego, Euskera, Asturiano, Valenciano, Mallorquin ...


SHHHHHH!!!!! :eek: Will you just shut up? :mad:

And there was me just thinking we were lucky and for once not being the ones applying ridiculous language legislation.... the last thing we need is that some of our more hawkish politicians from nationalist parties get the idea... :=

And we are having soon elections in the catalonian provinces... :ugh::ugh:

[His dudeness]

What about all those damned english labels in the AF cockpits? Shouldn´t they be changed into french ones as well? And wot about the EICAS messages, FMS (excuse me, Ordinateur d'navigation) ?

[ChristiaanJ]

Yes, english is one of the main languages in aviation...Sorry, mate, it is THE language in aviation.
I know it's tough to admit ... but it was the Allies, such as the Amis and the Rosbifs and the Ozzies and the Kiwis, that did a large part of winning the last war (WWII).
As a consequence, a large part of our early post-war technology was English-language based, and so was most of our aviation infra-structure.
Great idea... all speako the same lingo, we all know what we're talkin' about, no?

And thanks again for ChristiaanJ, for saying that french isn't a technical language... probably the most stupid assertion of all those pages. He will be forgotten anyway - being obviously deprieved of any academic background, I can understand he missed a lot of it, and has no idea of what has been written or achieved in so many fields.LOL... Nice one....
Unfortunately for you, I have a degree in aeronautical engineering... also 35-odd years of experience in the field (including Concorde)...also 40-odd years of technical French. :8

The rest of your waffle clearly identifies you as a "sciolist", as defined at the bottom of each PPRuNe page...
Noun, archaic. "a person who pretends to be knowledgeable and well informed"
Said otherwise: you ain't got a clue what you're talkin' about....

Nuff said.

CJ

[Squawk7777]

Hang on a minute. Air France and KLM are part of the AF/KLM group but aren't both airlines on independent operating certificates? I can see a court ruling regarding AF affecting AF operations but how does have an effect on KLM? Are KLM and AF manuals identical in content? Isn't the regulating authority supervising KLM the Dutch CAA? Things don't add up here. :confused:

The safety case is irrefutable that their should be one language used for communications and it happens to be English ...

If you refer to ATC comms there's been plenty of colo(u)rful talk here on pprune. :rolleyes: Opinions differ(ed), and no one IMHO came up with the smoking gun. I still believe that many English-only speaking pilots (monoglots) have a certain arrogance about their language as the only language.

Sorry, mate, it is THE language in aviation.

Beg to differ, replace THE with MAIN or ONE OF THE but it has been discussed here as well. There might be differences in certain areas, but English is not the only international aviation language. It is written somewhere in the seemingly infinite ICAO jungle of documents. If I remember correctly English, French, Spanish, Russian and Chinese were mentioned. EDIT: It also stated (concerning ATC transmissions) if a common language cannot be determined then English should be used.

Now I wonder if it is time to revive the French ATC thread :hmm: :uhoh: :ugh:

[Capetonian]

English is the language of aviation :


Lufthansa (in German): "Ground, what is our start clearance time?"
Ground (in English): "If you want an answer you must speak in English."
Lufthansa (in German): "I am a German, flying a German registered aircraft, for a German airline, in Germany. Why must I speak English?"
Ground (in English) : Because English is the offical language of civil aviation.
Unknown voice from another plane (in a British accent): " And because you lost the bloody war ......"

[Squawk7777]

Has been mentioned here, too. German-language ATC transmissions are common but usually restricted to VFR operations, so don't be surprised to hear German at international airports.

One thing I'd like to know. What was the ATC language in former East Germany?

Edit:

Christiaan, one question. What is the problem with technical French? I have read technical French, German and English, maybe not to the detail you have. What is the disadvantage? I know translations can be difficult, but I don't see French being a disadvantage in the technical field.

[BrATCO]

What was the ATC language in former East Germany?

Russian is an aviation language too. :E
Alies wouldn't have won the war without them... :eek:

[limelight]

The problem is, what happens if just one manual is translated incorrectly, which leads to an incident. I won't call it an accident, because if the crew followed the incorrectly translated instructions to the letter.......

What sort of hole are we digging?

[fdr]

RHINE-HEART? which allows a lot of not-so-good individuals from Australia, Canada, US, UK, to start a pilot career with a definite advantage, thus concealing much of their other weaknesses with their "command of english"..

Did someone forget to hug you when you were young? FWIW, your comments smack of racial vilification; the assumption of racial superiority that underlies your post is rather offensive.

"Where they have burned books, they will end in burning human beings.
(Dort, wo man Bücher verbrennt, verbrennt man am Ende auch Menschen)" Heinrich Heine (1797-1856)

[mm43]

So what happens as the luckless person(s) who is/are confronted with doing this stupid translation comes up against the first English acronym, e.g. IFR?

Do they write, 'règles de vol aux instruments', or RDVAI, or RVI?

Hopefully, AF will appeal this judgement to the highest court in the land, and if necessary to the European Court of Justice.

[punkalouver]

Russian is an aviation language too. :E
Alies wouldn't have won the war without them... :eek:

Too bad that they started it as well.

[SIUYA]

Reinhart...

And some of those nations (Ireland, Australia, NZ) enjoy being called "great aviation nations" (because they do supply a big percentage of the pilot workforces of many companies in the world ) ... when they don"t build any aircraft, choppers, fighters, rockets or satellites.

You obviously haven't got a bloody clue about what Australia has actually '...achieved in so many fields' in aviation, Rienhart. :rolleyes:

OK, so Australia doesn't build helicopters, but it has built (and still does build) aircraft, was the the first country to have a civilian DME system, developed the T-VASIS, developed the flight data recorder, launched its first satellite in 1967 (WRESAT) and in doing so became the fourth country in the world to do so, has the HyShot (scramjet) program, and has been involved with rocket programs since the 60's (Blue Streak, followed on by ELDO etc).

As fdr said:

FWIW [Reinhart], your comments smack of racial vilification; the assumption of racial superiority that underlies your post is rather offensive.

I have to agree with fdr. Your xenophobic assertions Reinhart, demonstrate the wisdom of Mark Twain's comment: It is better to keep your mouth closed and let people think you are a fool than to open it and remove all doubt. :ugh:

[Henry09]

Simple really, just stop al AF flights from operating outside French Airspace until the union and courts have a rethink.

[Reinhardt]

And which authority will "stop AF flights " to operate out of their country ?

As for any airline, provided they speak a decent english on the radio, write a similar decent one on the CPDLC, and eventually manage to be understood in english by all the dispatchers and engineers at destination, they can express their cockpit calls and read their manuals in the language they want, including esperanto can't they ? (especially if their country build the aircraft...:) )
I remember the C-160 Transall aircraft, with all the labelling written in both french and german, and believe me that wasn't a problem, even a pleasure.
Regarding "supposed racial vilification" (always an easy trick those days to call this one) I'm not sure to which side we should put this one. Obviously some people cannot figure that aircraft manuals can be written in another language than english.
Regarding australian achevements in aerospace, well, I accept the ones supplied by Siuya, even there are not so many after all - compared to countries like Germany, France or Italy.
And ChristaanJ... OK you have been ground engineer for dozens of years. Sorry young man, but I have more. As I want to stay anonymous, nothing more unfortunately.

[DaFly]

I guess Reinhardt is a bit distressed about the fact, that he had to learn English in order to work in Qatar as a civilian, after having served the better part of his life in da Lufwaffe, ja? After all they do really struggle on the radio when flying in foreign, English speaking countries.

Give him some slack guys! Life is just not fair...

[BrATCO]

Too bad that they started it as well.

You're right, their dictature chose the "best" end of the stick anytime : German side at the beginning, Alies in the end. I don't think the people chose to go on war. Not more than English people chose to send soldiers in Irak, or French in Afghanistan...
Anyway, Russian is an aviation language, but I'm not sure that was THE aviation language in DDR...

As for Air France and their manuals, I suspect a move from the union to avoid KLM pilots to replace AFR pilots in the French fleet. (Just a guess.)
Exactly the same as English speaking pilots wanting everyone to speak English : for safety reasons...:suspect:

[badgerh]

Reminds me of working in a well known UK high tech multinational that no longer exists. We were delivering some big satellite earth stations to Germany (Those were the days ;) ). We had been good enough to translate all documents and quotes into German. A troubled message was received from the customer: Why do we need twelve large aquatic sheep?

It turns out that an "acquatic sheep" is NOT a "hydraulic ram" :sad:

[Squawk7777]

As for Air France and their manuals, I suspect a move from the union to avoid KLM pilots to replace AFR pilots in the French fleet. (Just a guess.)
Exactly the same as English speaking pilots wanting everyone to speak English : for safety reasons...

BrATCO, the companies KLM and AF still have the requirements to speak English and the national language. Like Iberia, LH, Swiss etc. The court ruling and its implication on KLM are still unclear to me, as they are two different airlines operating under two different regulatory authorities.

For those who claim that a national language with its abbreviations other than English don't work or cause greater risk, I cannot really share this point of view. I had looked into this and Latin America which is mainly Spanish speaking seems to have no problem with it. There are a few instances where English speakers get amused, and usually the characters are shuffled around; the General Operating Manual (GOM) is abbreviated MGO in Spanish. If I remember correctly COPA has a dual set of manuals, English and Spanish.

I see this thread derail in typical pprune tradition. Usually, when languages other than English are being discussed, fingers get pointed at France, due to the almost hostile tradition and history of relations between France and the UK.

Bad translations from manuals result from poor proof-reading. Embraer has had its moments, too. Why cannot translated parts be proof-read by engineers or pilots, who are fluent or native speakers?

After all they do really struggle on the radio when flying in foreign, English speaking countries.

Never heard Luftwaffe pilots struggle in English. You may find the accent amusing and certain pronunciation. I have heard more LH pilots with rather poor English skills, but I guess I am not competent enough to question the mighty DLR test :p

[BEagle]

Many aviation expressions originate from French: fuselage, longeron and aileron, for example.

Where confusion might arise, it makes sense to speak a common language. But otherwise there is no reason to demand that manuals are written in English (Airbus requires 'American', I understand) for users with other mother tongues.

Just to keep the frog-bashers happy, you'll be pleased to know that 'surrender' comes from the French verb se rendre....:\

[Squawk7777]

Let's not forget that there's a difference in technical English between the UK and the US: Yoke, dumping fuel, Vref, Vat, high-pressure cock etc.

I was told that if you'd use some of those above mentioned US words during sim session with CX they'd stop the sim to give you proper bull0cking. :ugh:

[four engine jock]

I flew a EX Air France B707 in the 80's, and the whole Cockpit was in French. Very hard to find that C/B.

[flydive1]

The problem is, what happens if just one manual is translated incorrectly, which leads to an incident. I won't call it an accident, because if the crew followed the incorrectly translated instructions to the letter.......

Well in a lot of countries pilots study for their licences using the local language, from PPL up to and including ATPL, does that causes incidents?

Lots of manuals are written with English being the foreign language, does this causes incidents?

[CaptainProp]

Really?! Which countries? Hold on, let me guess - France, Spain and Italy.:zzz:

[flydive1]

And Switzerland, Germany, Greece, and probably another 100 whose official language is not English?

[flyblue]

Pilots unanimously against and very critical of this ruling (and even of the union that raised the topic) in the AF internal Forum.

But feel free to continue the Frog bashing, don't want to spoil your fun :)

[captplaystation]

Don't think you should be too guilty about the "French"view. Originator and top critics on this thread have been largely French. If YOU can see how ridiculous is the proposed "solution", you can imagine how the rest of us view it. :rolleyes:

[non0]

Really?! Which countries? Hold on, let me guess - France, Spain and Italy ... specification needed... I'm sorry dude but unfortunately in Italy all the ATPL exams must be done in English! In addition to that all the Italian old Captain are desperately striving to confirm their English Level 4 on their ATP before June 2011.

[VONKLUFFEN]

Ces pilotes rebelles devraient être clowns du Cirque du Soleil et non membres de la communauté aéronautique internationale.:ugh:

:eek:Poor french? Blame Google Translate. Want to know the meaning ... Google Translate:p

[ChristiaanJ]

VONKLUFFEN,
Le français est parfait, ainsi que le sentiment exprimé dans cette phrase.

Par contre, je ne pense pas que le Cirque du Soleil accepterait d'engager ces clowns.
Après tout, un vrai clown est aussi un vrai professionnel, ce qu'on ne peut pas dire de ces rigolos.

CJ

[ChristiaanJ]

...feel free to continue the frog bashing, don't want to spoil your fun :)That should have been written "Frog bashing", a great sport on PPRuNe, like Ami, Rosbif, Ozzie, Kiwi, Cloggy, etc. bashing.

On the other hand "frog bashing" is stupid.... it tends to ruin the legs.

CJ

[barit1]

Hell, US media have enough trouble using English!

I can't count the times I've heard such absurdities as "six-week anniversary"! :*

[hetfield]

Off topic, sorry.

FRENCH GOVERNMENT :

German Trains are not long enough.....:D

Auftrag von Eurostar: Frankreich*stänkert gegen*Siemens - SPIEGEL ONLINE - Nachrichten - Wirtschaft (http://www.spiegel.de/wirtschaft/unternehmen/0,1518,723216,00.html)

[dvv]

barit1, Merriam-Webster begs to differ:

Definition of ANNIVERSARY

1 : the annual recurrence of a date marking a notable event; broadly : a date that follows such an event by a specified period of time measured in units other than years <the 6-month anniversary of the accident> [emph. mine. dvv]

[Lonewolf_50]

Definition of ANNIVERSARY

1 : the annual recurrence of a date marking a notable event; broadly : a date that follows such an event by a specified period of time measured in units other than years <the 6-month anniversary of the accident>
Broadly, since it is the distaff portion who are overly conscious of which anniversary of what we'll be having this month ... :E

I'll get my coat ...

I note above a suspicion that this move was a jobs protection gambit versus KLM pilots ... which is the most rational explanation to my eye for this decision to fight over an issue.

[kwateow]

If you ever tell a cabin full of Brits that we'll be taking off momentarily, you can expect a riot on your hands.

These pax normally expect the take-off to last more than a moment.

Then, don't we all?

[blind pew]

Sqwark 7777
Swissair manuals were ONLY in english.
Official cockpit language English only. (and for checks)
We weren't allowed to use anything but English on the RT - accept when the odd controller couldn't communicate efficiently in English.

There were the odd dubious procedures written by Swiss Germans in English - like a prophylactic use of power - I hadn't come across the word before but an American friend told me it was a posh word for a French Letter!:)

As to french controllers although most speak excellent english I have recently heard two who didn't understand sufficient English.

Along a similar track an AF 380 pilot told me that the engineer who left the spacer out of the Paris Concorde only spoke French and the manual was in ....... English only!

[mary meagher]

A while back, when these forums were discussing the unfortunate demise of the Polish aircraft carrying dignitaries to a remembrance service in Russia, the reports written in Russian were translated with the help of Google; one line in particular with memorable result...

"before the accident, the aircraft was completely unserviceable....."

[Squawk7777]

Come to think about it, we can translate great literature pieces from Shakespeare, Goethe, Sartre, etc. into many different languages but we struggle translating technical bits.

[ChristiaanJ]

Along a similar track an AF 380 pilot told me that the engineer who left the spacer out of the Paris Concorde only spoke French and the manual was in ....... English only!I didn't want to bring that up.... since that was indeed an incident that may or may not have any relation to that accident.

But you're touching on another sore point... the abuse of the term "engineer" in the English language (such as "sanitation engineer"?).
This was a mechanic, not an engineer.
And I'm not wanting to cast asturiums on mechanics here... as in any job there are good and bad ones. They may be excellent at their job, but they usually lack language skills... as in this case.
The real failure here was not that of the mechanic, it was the failure of a quality control system that had a mechanic carry out a job without it having been inspected properly by a qualified inspector.

CJ

[ChristiaanJ]

Come to think about it, we can translate great literature pieces from Shakespeare, Goethe, Sartre, etc. into many different languages....We can't, really.
Nearly always, if you know both languages, and read both original and translation, you realise something has been lost in translation.
Admittedly not always true... but only if the translator is also an excellent writer her/himself.
....but we struggle translating technical bits.Again, depends.
As I said earlier, if you have a translator who's fully familiar with the 'technical bits' there's no real struggle.
But often that's not the case, and that's where the problems start.

CJ

[barit1]

dvv: (re six-week anniversary)
barit1, Merriam-Webster begs to differ:

Definition of ANNIVERSARY

1 : the annual recurrence of a date marking a notable event; broadly : a date that follows such an event by a specified period of time measured in units other than years <the 6-month anniversary of the accident> [emph. mine. dvv]

Broadly or narrowly, such a nitwit non-entymological expression is still absurd. The late great Edwin Newman (Strictly Speaking) must be turning in his grave. :rolleyes:

[parabellum]

As I can't read or speak French I can't read the actual court ruling but I am wondering if it would satisfy the ruling if one complete set of manuals only was translated and left available in the office? Does the court ruling say "all manuals in use" or similar?

[kontrolor]

well, this is only one small sign of EU coming to its knees....

[jcjeant]

Hi,

La défense et le prosélitisme de la langue française est une noble cause.
Quoi de plus naturel que de défendre sa différence culturelle.
Est ce que le domaine aéronautique est l'un des plus approprié pour mettre en valeur cette différence culturelle est une question que l'ont peut se poser ...
Une réunion au sommet des pays de langue française et de son intelligencia devrait avoir lieu pour débattre de ce sujet .. c'est un minimum :)

Pardonnez le traducteur Google .. il fait de son mieux :)
Forgive Google translator .. he did his best :)

Defense and the proselytism of the French language is a noble cause.
What more natural than to defend its cultural difference.
Is the field of aviation is one of the most appropriate to highlight this cultural difference is a question that may have to ask ...
A summit meeting of French-speaking countries and the intelligentsia should be held to discuss this topic .. is a minimum :)

[Me Myself]

Look, we are not debating cultural matters. If you like litterature or poetry, you can have it in french all you like.
My point is, we live in the 21 century and english happens to be the western world mean of communication. Trust me, a hell of lot easier than having to learn mandarin.
Speaking 3 languages, I actually feel blessed and feel those poor anglos are missing out so much.

This is a purely Air France issue and doesn't in the least concern KLM.
The ruling was made in accordance to a bill passed in the dark year of 1994 by a parliament who didn't know the difference between its left and right inspired by one of the stupidiest politicians France has had the priviledge to produce......and we are numero uno in that trade.

Making a cultural issue out of a technical one is a lunacy.
Safety is the reason claimed by this very active minority who, in truth, would just like to see AF disappear from the face of the earth.
Just an old grudge coming from a small group of bitter men who, at one time or another, didn't get what they wanted.
Problem is, they also poisened the whell.
Claiming this is going to make AF safer when all the incidents and accidents AF had to suffer, happened when all the manuals were in french, is a fraud.
The vast majority of AF pilots are just stunned by this ruling and being the law, it is going to be a long process to try to have this ruling broken.
Again, this a case where the law becomes illegal.
When you know the district court in charge, mainly deals with stolen cars or petty theft cases, CDG being in their juridiction, shows you what understanding of the issue these good judges have.
It's called the french judicial system. Understaffed, underfunded and overworked...............on top of being totally clueless.

Last. Millenium was written in swedish and turned out to be a world block buster. The same movie was shot in swedish and was an equal success.
This endless claim by the french to be the cultural center of the world is just a bore and the reflection of their deep seated insecurities.
Korea seems to be the only country who went down the same path. A hell of a place to emulate !

[Loose rivets]

Defense and the proselytism of the French language is a noble cause.
What more natural than to defend its cultural difference.

I agree with this, and it's vital to maintain local languages and dialects all over the world. To lose them would be tragic. However, for years it's been vital to achieve the creation and common use of a world language.

Esperanto was . . . erm, less than a success. Good intentions and all that, but a modern world language has to be technology-based first, and artistic last.

I recall years ago a Japanese scientist talking of the stress he felt by learning so much of his own language. He made the astonishing statement that it felt as though the relevant hemisphere of his brain felt (something like) stuffed to the brim. He knew he had better things to do than tackle a complex language that relied so much on graphical interpretation.

What is so odd is that some years ago, there was a decree - in academia or the courts, can't remember which. - which stated that all science papers must be published in English. I was astonished, but felt it was a step in the right direction. But now we have a huge industry forced to waste, what in real terms? - half a million bucks, maybe a lot more than that. And that just gets them legal for day one.

In my lifetime, this had become a small world. We simply can not carry on talking dozens of different languages.

[iceman50]

DVV

Perhaps you should have used the Oxford Dictionary

A
anniversary

Pronunciation:/anɪˈvəːs(ə)ri/
noun (plural anniversaries)
the date on which an event took place or an institution was founded in a previous year:
the 50th anniversary of the Battle of Britain
the 75th anniversary of the RAF
the date on which a couple were married in a previous year:
he even forgot our tenth anniversary!

Origin:
Middle English: from Latin anniversarius 'returning yearly', from annus 'year' + versus 'turning'


Spelling help
Spell anniversary with a double n at the beginning; the ending is -ary.

[Daermon ATC]

There is a time and place for cultural and language differences, and this isn't it.

Remember that mars exploring mission that crashed because part of the work had been done in Europe using metric system and part in the US using the imperial system?

Any technical issue relies on the absolute lack of ambiguity. If I say "1 minute" I'm referring to 60 times "the duration of 9,192,631,770 periods of the radiation corresponding to the transition between the two hyperfine levels of the ground state of the caesium 133 atom" which remains the same regardless of which country said caesium atom happens to be (luckily).

As a spaniard I'm acutely aware of both the blessing and the curse of multiple languages. Let's not loose our perspective, the reason for language to exist is to communicate information not to evidence an inferiority complex. Having cultural differences is fine by me but not in a technical field where having differences is the last thing you want.

English is nowadays the world language just as before it was french, earlier spanish and earlier latin. In the future we'll probably have to learn mandarin. Just face it and get over with, geeze! :ugh:

[Me Myself]

:ok:

Well put !

[lederhosen]

English is indeed the aviation lingua franca these days and french pilots are required to pass english language proficiency just like the rest of us. However ultimately this issue is of no great significance. Air France just has to pay someone to translate the manuals. Pointless exercise as almost every sane person agrees and will probably cost them a few hundred thousand euros. The french government normally skews the playing field in Air France's favour....this time not. C'est la vie!

[Me Myself]

Lederhosen

May I remind you that in our democratic system, justice and government are 2 separate things ?
The same applies to Germany, or did last time I was there.............last week.

It is of hell of a relevance since it will cost AF a s.t load of money and will send us to the stone age of aviation out of which we were barely coming out.
If one is not able to read and understand an approach chart in english, then one should one's sorry self and go and do something else than flying aircrafts around the globe.

The french governement for all I know didn't decide anything. It was a clueless judge out of some dubious subburb came out with this ruling.
I doubt our current masters would have taken this kind of decision if left to them.

[lederhosen]

You are exagerating a bit when you talk about some manuals being translated into french sending you all back to the stone age. Are you honestly saying that the english manuals are all going to be binned? Nothing will change. Some translation agency will be rubbing their hands together and employing a few willing hands, maybe even out of work pilots who knows? It is a bit embarrassing but nothing more. To Air France a million is small change. We can all have a good laugh but lets leave it at that.

[Bengerman]

It is a matter of public record that French ATC speaking French to a French aircraft at a major international airport in France almost caused the death of hundreds of people.

Like it or not, and the history is irrelevant, English is the language of aviation and the sooner the French cease their xenophobic attitude towards all things English then the sooner the aviation world will be a safer place.

By all means insist on all things in France being French, but leave aviation to aviators who understand the importance of effective communication!

[Squawk7777]

It is a matter of public record that French ATC speaking French to a French aircraft at a major international airport in France almost caused the death of hundreds of people.

Like it or not, and the history is irrelevant, English is the language of aviation and the sooner the French cease their xenophobic attitude towards all things English then the sooner the aviation world will be a safer place.

By all means insist on all things in France being French, but leave aviation to aviators who understand the importance of effective communication!

It's ignorant replies like this that make me shake my head. Did you ever bother reading the infamous "French ATC" thread? Did you ever fly to other countries, even in Europe? Did you ever look into the factors of your near-death scenarios? Your pet argument doesn't work at all, and besides the world is a tad bigger than your glance over to France with many countries and operations working in multi-lingual ATC environment. Latin America probably being the biggest dual-language ATC system.

What about leaving aviation to aviators who aren't so narrow-minded?

[Jet Jockey A4]

I totally agree with Squawk7777 in the above post.

Besides this is an internal Air France matter not relevant to any other company.

So what if all their manuals are available in both languages. How does that affect safety to others outside Air France?

In the end, I'm sure most of their pilots will still use the English version.

[Squawk7777]

We can't, really.
Nearly always, if you know both languages, and read both original and translation, you realise something has been lost in translation.
Admittedly not always true... but only if the translator is also an excellent writer her/himself.

Exactly! That's why one should refer to a translation more as an interpretation when it comes to literature. I assume the same message comes across every reader when he reads Hamlet no matter in which language it is written.

Daermon ATC has hit the nail on the head. A scientific unit (SU) cannot be changed. There are sometimes confusions about which SU to be used, but IMHO tech manuals should be easier to translate than pieces of literature (note: translate not interpret). But if a company puts enough effort into proper translation which really is not that difficult since there aren't really emotional parts in it then there shouldn't be a problem. Usually, incorrect translated items are fairly easy to spot. Is it more an annoyance than a risk?

I have read some Embraer manuals and there were issues with it. I had wondered why Embraer USA had not proof-read or verified the translations. I personally think that if you have a proper translated manual there will be less issues with it than having people who don't speak English very well trying to guess what the manual (in English) says. Economically, it will make more sense to spend a few $$$ more on a good and correct translation than requiring everyone to speak and fully understand English. It makes me wonder how the automobile industry handles this. Surely, the Audi, BMW, Honda, Citroen etc. dealerships in the UK are not required to learn German, Japanese or French.

Last. Millenium was written in swedish and turned out to be a world block buster. The same movie was shot in swedish and was an equal success.
This endless claim by the french to be the cultural center of the world is just a bore and the reflection of their deep seated insecurities.
Korea seems to be the only country who went down the same path. A hell of a place to emulate !

There is a difference between a blockbuster and a cultural piece of art. Milllenium is a good trilogy, but considering certain scenes (especially the rape scene) it doesn't come across as a master piece of culture or art. If every blockbuster is a center of culture, we should all be worshipping the New Kids on the Block, Spice Girls, Take That, Die Hard, Lethal Weapon etc. :ugh: (and let's not mention your comment about deep seated insecurities; you're opening a can of worms there mate)

[shortfuel]

It was a clueless judge out of some dubious subburb

Do you know the judge? It's not because you don't like the outcome of the appeal that a judge is necessarily "clueless".
The location of the Court does not make it dubious my friend, your statement is nothing but a very good example of a "racisme ordinaire" that is spreading in France thanks to your "masters".

Si c'est le TGI de Paris qui avait jugé, ça aurait rendu le verdict moins stupide peut-être?
Ta remarque sur le TGI de Bobigny est déplacée pour le moins qu'on puisse dire...

Oh btw you might need that:
Merriam-Webster Online (http://www.merriam-webster.com/)

[BrATCO]

Me Myself,
I was about to make exactly the same answer to lederhosen this morning, but had no time to finish it.
I would have emitted a doubt about the justice impartiality, but I would have been wrong. Indeed.

Squawk7777,
Don't worry about Bengerman accusations, he works in finance. If ever he flew in France as a pilot, I guess he was the problem, not the language. (easy to accuse when no proof)
I'm ready to fight any AF pilot about their policies, but here, they are victims.


As to speak French on the frequency (I know, off topic...) since I discovered the bi-language issue (on this forum), when I have to give a safety control clearance to a French speaking pilot, I give the information to the English pilot who's involved.
Just ask, instead of treating French as mass murderers.

[clunckdriver]

We went through this at Air Canada many years ago, just as now it drifted into politics rather than keeping it within aviation, the result was not pretty and did little other than raise the blood presure of a few. During this time I chanced to fly with one of the main players in the dispute, so I sugested we do the whole cycle in French and see how it went, the problem was he didnt know the technical terms in French for such uninportant things as flaps/gear/trim and a whole bunch of stuff, go figure!

[MurphyWasRight]

D Atc said:

Any technical issue relies on the absolute lack of ambiguity. If I say "1 minute" I'm referring to 60 times "the duration of 9,192,631,770 periods of the radiation corresponding to the transition between the two hyperfine levels of the ground state of the caesium 133 atom" which remains the same regardless of which country said caesium atom happens to be (luckily).


True enough unless one is talking about navigation...

Things are rarely as simple, or as complicated, as they may seem at first glance.

[Idle Thrust]

Clunckdriver:

I was waiting for someone to mention the Air Canada situation. There was a rumour then that Air France had actually approached AC offering to purchase the translated manuals. Just a rumour but it made a good story but then some rumours are actually true!

[lederhosen]

MeMyself and BrAtco appear not to be judicial experts. I am no expert on french law, but I am pretty sure the judge does not draft the law in France he applies it. The politicians introduced this legislation and are ultimately responsible. I think M. Long was mentioned earlier.

By the way BrAtco what does 'I would have emitted a doubt about the justice impartiality, but I would have been wrong. Indeed' mean. Feel free to write what you meant in french as I understand the language pretty well having worked in France for a long time.

[Me Myself]

Lederhosen, unless I was in a coma, I don't recall implying the judges DRAFTED the law. They ruled ! , oder beurteilten, if that makes easier for you.

I happen to live in the very padded cell where Mr Toubon DRAFTED that magnificent piece of law that, no doubt, will be in history books for centuries to come. I hope there will be a day where we can all laugh about it.
I obviously have to count you out on that last one.

In zwischen, allow me to be a tad upset at seing my compagny having to cough up silly money which coud be used in a much more productive fashion.
Not one single country in western Europe has ever made a pledge to protect its national linguo in such a stupid way. I don't care if the rest of the world doesn't speak french, as long as my butcher understands me !
Has german disapeared from the face of the earth ? Nein, hat nicht ! Es wird immer noch auf english geflogen und auf deutsch gefeiert !
Has Dutch ? Nope ! Such a small country, kicking and living.

A language, or langue vivante as we say here, stays alive not because there is a law, but because there is a need. And I don't need french to read a bloody approach plate or to study for a type rating.
Those who claim it affects safety should go and spend a term at the British council and avoid flying airplanes.

[Squawk7777]

A language, or langue vivante as we say here, stays alive not because there is a law, but because there is a need. And I don't need french to read a bloody approach plate or to study for a type rating.

If you are fluent in French and English, why does it matter whether the approach plate or the manual is French or English? Language is the transmission of information. If the approach plate says your D(H) is 328 feet than it is 328 pieds. If the manual outlines specific limitations, than the language shouldn't matter. At a time I had pretty good knowledge of all three types of approach plates: Aerad, Jeppesen and NOS charts. Different symbols and outlines, but the same information. Some was presented better than others. If the term for bleed air valve is Entlüftungsventil or valve d'échappement, who cares? This English-only argument due to safety is like claiming that a pilot should never hand-fly.

As I have mentioned before, there are plenty of companies that safely fly and operate with dual-languages, sometimes with very little English.

[Me Myself]

squawk

I do mind and not a little. This represents mamothal translation work and for no little money.
We've been functionning quite well with these charts, manuals and tutorials until today where we suddenly have to through everything out of the window for a claim made by a group who, at most represent 200 pilots out of 4400.
Approach plates where made for and by both KLM and AF. This now means double the cost for zilch gain in safety.
Would it be the claim of the majority, I would very gracefully yield.

[PJ2]

Squawk7777;
This English-only argument due to safety is like claiming that a pilot should never hand-fly.
No, it's not the same category of argument at all.

Presuming a healthy individual, there is no possibility of "communication" error in hand-flying an aircraft because it is done by one person who is communicating with his or her physical inputs to the controls. The feedback loop, as it were, is within one location...as it were.

Symbols, signs, words, utterances - those things which "stand for" meaning in complex human interactions and which are employed by one person or document to communicate information to an unknown (if the speaker isn't present) interpreter, (reader, listener) is, at its most philosophical as well as in its most ordinary and fundamental state, an interpretive gesture in which the conveyance of intended meaning cannot and is not guaranteed. Misunderstanding through mistaken interpretation is a significant contributing factor to accidents and wars alike.

None of that obtains when hand-flying an airliner... ;-)

Me Myself;
The Air Canada and French ATC case in Canada are well worth studying in detail - there are lessons there for everyone including minorities.

PJ2

[Rwy in Sight]

Which language is supposed to be used for intra-aircraft communications? When doors are to be armed or crew to be seated (for an airline based in country not speaking English) do these announcements have to be made in English or the national language is ok too?

Rwy in Sight

[ChristiaanJ]

Which language is supposed to be used for intra-aircraft communications? When doors are to be armed or crew to be seated (for an airline based in country not speaking English) do these announcements have to be made in English or the national language is ok too?
Rwy in SightOne would hope the cabin crew would have been trained and competent in those tasks.

Once they are, and the entire cabin crew understands the same language and phraseology, there should be no problem.

But, considering that the pilots may well be expats..... I suppose it becomes a matter of SOPs.
Either the flight deck learns the few necessary phrases in the local language, or the cabin crew learns those same phrases in English.

Anybody here has experience with this?

CJ

[jcjeant]

Hi,

May I remind you that in our democratic system, justice and government are 2 separate things ?Indeed ...
The governement (legislators) make the laws .. and the judges (clueless or not) make apply the laws
Can emphasize that sometime the (famous) separation between justice and government disappears :)

[ChristiaanJ]

MeMyself and BrAtco appear not to be judicial experts. I am no expert on french law, but I am pretty sure the judge does not draft the law in France, he applies it. The politicians introduced this legislation and are ultimately responsible.I agree with lederhosen here.
In this case it's a small sh!t-stirring minority union with a huge chip on its shoulder (a remnant from the Air France / Air Inter merger, and a classic example of the ludicrous French union landscape) that has brought this 'case' before the court.
Nobody else in his right mind would have bothered....

By the way BrAtco what does "I would have emitted a doubt about the justice impartiality, but I would have been wrong. Indeed" mean. Well.... there are cases where there have been doubts about courts' impartiality, but mostly where the issues were political, or directly involved politicians.

In this case it was simply filed at the local TGI (Tribunal de Grande Instance, use Google and Google translator, if you want to understand what that means) at Bobigny, and the judge had it dumped in his lap, so was obliged to deal with it.

I doubt whether there was any government pressure in this case ... whether the 'tribunal' was competent to deal with the issue is another matter.

CJ

[jcjeant]

Hi,

I shudder to think of what could cause (national language translation) such request in countries like Switzerland or Belgium
Good luck for Swiss and Brussels Airlines :)

[Capetonian]

I shudder to think of what could cause (national language translation) such request in countries like Switzerland or Belgium

South Africa has 11 official languages : English, Afrikaans, South Sotho, Sotho, Tswana, Swazi, Venda, Tsonga, Ndebele, Xhosa and Zulu.

[cwatters]

Next week the court will rule on the use of metric units :)

[ChristiaanJ]

I shudder to think of what could cause (national language translation) such request in countries like Switzerland or BelgiumOr really in any other non-English language country.

This moronic and nationalistic attitude makes me shudder, too.....

Let me make myself clear.... and getting back for a moment to the start of the thread.

Translating documents to be used by local staff, ground mechanics, etc., of a non-English-language airline, where said staff does not have sufficient command of English, is not only useful, but necessary to insure a safe operation.

It then becomes the responsability of the airline, that those translations are clear, accurate, and up-to-date, and checked and proof-read by people competent to do so. Unfortunately we all know this is not necessarily always the case....

However, when we start getting a pilots union of a major international airline calling for translation of their daily operating documents in English into their own language for 'security' reasons, we have a major problem.

Not only do they admit they are being employed under false pretences (their employment contract specifies they have to have an adequate command of aviation English, so they should already have been fired), but also they are trying to create a precedent... "it ain't me, it's the company that didn't respect the "Toubon" law"... or "you're discriminating against me becoz I ain't capable of talkin' or understandin' nuff English'".. Recognize the mentality?

Let's hope this cretinism gets nipped in the bud.

CJ

[ChristiaanJ]

Next week the court will rule on the use of metric units :)Nice one.....
The Russians will love it....

CJ

[dvv]

Oh boy… What next — QFE?

[ChristiaanJ]

Oh boy… What next — QFE?I thought that was largely settled, with some still using inHg and some using mbar or kPa and largely agreeing to differ.

CJ

[Squawk7777]

However, when we start getting a pilots union of a major international airline calling for translation of their daily operating documents in English into their own language for 'security' reasons, we have a major problem.

Christiaan, do you have any more info what the 'security' reasons are based upon? Isn't there a more detailed explanation?

[dvv]

CJ, the Russians are using QFE and mmHg.

OTOH, Russian crews flying Boeings are using English terminology in the cockpit. It sounds really cute — extremely heavily accented English interspersed with very vernacular Russian.

[shortfuel]

The correct translation would have been 'safety' reason...not 'security' as CJ mentioned.

Maybe, it's not such a bad idea to translate it after all :E



Reminder to CJ:
Sécurité=safety
Security=sûreté

Once again: Merriam-Webster Online (http://www.merriam-webster.com/)

[LH2]

It's ignorant replies like this that make me shake my head.

Indeed, but for a different reason than yours. The incident in question (CDG near miss, mixed languages identified as a contributing factor in investigation) is relevant here. One of the recommendations that came out of the BEA reports was that CDG ATC should be English only, in account of the safety implications. Everyone that mattered agreed with that at the time: Air France, CDG management, and ATC... unfortunately some obscure, minority ATC union (see the coincidence?) and some equally obscure right wing group objected, made a fuss, the politicians got involved :ugh: and the rest is history.

Sorry I don't have references, although they can be found on the net--perhaps someone else can provide some.

[Loose rivets]

Some translation agency will be rubbing their hands together and employing a few willing hands,


It's going to need one heck of a translation agency, and willing hands with I.Q.s of 200, to SAFELY translate approach plates.

[LH2]

Exactly! That's why one should refer to a translation more as an interpretation when it comes to literature. I assume the same message comes across every reader when he reads Hamlet no matter in which language it is written.

Those interested in the problems of translation at large (and the concept of translation itself) may find an interesting read in the book "Dire quasi la stessa cosa" by Umberto Eco--which coincidentally I have in its French translation (dire presque la même chose, which strangely enough can be found at the Relays in CDG and ORY).

[non0]

... even in the Cannes version of TED (http://www.ted.com/talks/gary_wolf_the_quantified_self.html), the French speak English (and quite well too).

[Squawk7777]

Indeed, but for a different reason than yours. The incident in question (CDG near miss, mixed languages identified as a contributing factor in investigation) is relevant here. One of the recommendations that came out of the BEA reports was that CDG ATC should be English only, in account of the safety implications. Everyone that mattered agreed with that at the time: Air France, CDG management, and ATC... unfortunately some obscure, minority ATC union (see the coincidence?) and some equally obscure right wing group objected, made a fuss, the politicians got involved and the rest is history.

LH2 I am still not convinced that dual-language ATC causes a greater risk than English ATC only. I had followed this "hot topic" for many years now, and incidents like near-misses, runway incursions etc. happen in both types of airspace. Would single language use have prevented the incidents that occurred in the dual-language airspace? Most of it is just an assumption. If the aviation world is getting safer through technology (stop bars, ASDE-X, TCAS etc.) why not accept a different system?

Which takes me to PJ2, your reply is well put, I was using the comparison to demonstrate the almost stubborn attitude that some pilots have: This/my way or you'll face certain death. I had also had interesting discussions about AP vs. handflying use and see similar (IMHO narrow-minded) type of arguments. But I don't want to hijack this thread more than I have already done.

Pilots from countries in which dual-language exists usually have no problem with dual language ATC than pilots from English only ATC countries (including Germany).

shortfuel your example of CJ's translation glitch shows that you and I understood what he was referring to. Maybe translation "glitches" are not as severe as one things?(Misspelled on purpose; but most would correctly assume that I mean "thinks" i.e. in the sense of believing).

It's going to need one heck of a translation agency, and willing hands with I.Q.s of 200, to SAFELY translate approach plates.

Wouldn't they just use approach plates from ASECNA?

This thread has shown that the French language topic originates from a union issue and is not really a safety issue. As I don't want to open a huge can of worms and discuss union issues, this thread has additionally shown how hostile the French language in aviation is on pprune: On the first page, emotions were running high and it sounded that KLM pilots would have to learn French, then the almost classic French issue of dual language ATC was brought up. As most information given by others was nothing really new, it shows that is mainly a repetition of French bashing in classic pprune tradition. Do you really think the (negative) reaction would have been the same if Me Myself would be a pilot for COPA or TACA instead of Air France? I highly doubt it. It's the history of previous and current animosities that stirs up emotions.

EDIT:

@LH2: Do you have a copy of the incident report regarding the near-miss at CDG? (English or French it doesn't matter ;) )

[ChristiaanJ]

Reminder to CJ:
Sécurité=safety
Security=sûretéYou're dead right, of course.
It's what happens when you use both languages each day all through the day, then rattle off a post in one of them....

CJ

[Rwy in Sight]

At least in an English speaking forum you don't risk to be marked down like French snob -over protecting their language people love to do.

May I point out the obvious issue of losing SA when in a bilingual ATC environment. And this happens, as a BA skipper pointed out some years ago, when things become agitated hence requiring better SA.

Rwy in Sight

[daved123]

As LR mentions, it will take a particularly good translation agency to translate the manuals without it seeming to be a Google translation of the FCOM.
The degree of specialisation involved was brought home to me a few years ago when I needed to produce a French translation of an English policy document to the Hôtel des Impots (French tax authority).
I knew that a friend earned his living translating legal/financial/banking documents so asked him to translate four pages for me. He agreed but informed me that his accreditation was only for French ->English.
He translated the pages but annotated the translation to the effect that he believed the following to be a true translation of the pages but that his accreditation was only in French ->English.
DaveD

[Squawk7777]

May I point out the obvious issue of losing SA when in a bilingual ATC environment. And this happens, as a BA skipper pointed out some years ago, when things become agitated hence requiring better SA.


I NEVER felt having lost SA when I was flying in dual-language (Spanish/English) airspace (back in the days when I didn't know any Spanish). I felt more lost in rapid speaking environments like ORD, ATL and (sigh!) IAD. If you're losing SA in dual-language airspace, maybe you shouldn't fly into it at all. :=

As a matter of fact this argument was brought up in the "French ATC" thread and it was dissected quite well. Quick summary:

* You don't need to know everything that's going on in your airspace.
* Most military colleagues will be on UHF.
* USA AOPA's statistics show that most mid-air collisions happen on a clear day in radar environment with both pilots speaking to the controller (in English)
* Bigger airports have multiple frequencies for TWR, GND, etc.
* TCAS, ASDE-X, etc have added to SA when the frequency gets busy.

I'd like to see your BA skipper keep up with all transmissions and SA and flying/managing his 747 into ORD on a really busy day. :rolleyes: But I guess I am not that all-knowing...

Me Myself could you shed some light which documents/publications are in French and English at AF? (GOM, SOP, AOM, approach plates)

[Me Myself]

Me Myself could you shed some light which documents/publications are in French and English at AF? (GOM, SOP, AOM, approach plates)

It's a bit of a mix really.
Approach plates are in english and shared together with KLM. They are in my view a hell of a lot better than our old in house plates that were in french.
Tutorials are both in french and english. SOP's are in french which turns into frenglish on aircrafts like the 777 where all the ECAM check lists are in english.
QRH is in french for the descriptive part, and english for the procedural part reflecting the ECAM.
MEL is both in french and english which has many times led to misinterpretations in the french version. In my view it should be in english only.
The idea was to have the aircraft's descriptive part stay in english like it's been from the onstart on the 777. This will have to change.

The important thing to understand is that if the ruling stands before the High Court ( Cassation ) , any other operator working under french law, will have to comply with this ruling, should any pilot under french contract make a claim. The Toubon Bill being part of the National Working Award, employers will have no other choice but to comply.
For all I know, all of them use Jeppesen approach plates and Boeing or Airbus flight manuals.
You can easily imagine the financial and logistic catastrophy this would be for smaller operators like XL, Corsair, Aigle Azur who are already walking on a shoe string. What about City jet's pilots based in Paris and operating under french award ? They would have legal cause to make the claim too..........leading to a huge operational and human ressources headache since a lot of City Jet's pilots are also anglo.
Once you start pulling that string, it becomes a nightmare and no financial small beer as described by some on this thread.
I hardly think this whole charade will help spreading the use of french or its culture around the world, nor will it make the french any more fluent in english.
As to safety, we spent the last 20 years having incidents and accidents with french written documents.

[SKS777FLYER]

It is difficult enough writing new changes to operating manuals in English, by supposed English native speakers. It is always entertaining when the latest changes are introduced.

On a different note; is it just me, of most of the world's various Air Traffic Centers....is Scottish about the most difficult to comprehend, maybe next to Paris approach?

[ChristiaanJ]

...of most of the world's various Air Traffic Centers....is Scottish about the most difficult to comprehend...?The trouble is that Scottish is still classed as an English-language dialect, not as a separate language.

Dutch and Afrikaans speakers usually manage to understand each other better than English and Scottish speakers.... yet Dutch and Afrikaans are considered to be separate languages.

CJ

[Me Myself]

777

How dare you ???
Haven't you heard Kelly McDonald speak ???? I get both chicken skin and goose bumps and I'm close to CFIT into the planet everytime one of those " Scottish " ladies is on the mike.
I think this is one of the most charming accents there is.

[PJ2]

Ahhhhh.....someone said it. One of the downsides of retirement... Thank you.

[captplaystation]

Me Myself, way way back I had the same reaction to a "particular" controller in CDG. . . . Oh, les regrets les regrets , les regrets, les regrets. . . . les regrets (with apologies to Alain Souchon) and her mother was English (imagine how painful that was for a Scot := ) Still there, but infrequently "live", progressed a long time ago to higher echelons.

[mary meagher]

...has a few things to say about our neighbours over La Manche, to quote,
"what is the point of those awful, arrogant, people, those people still living in the 19th century and clinging like deranged limpets to their strange, disappearing lingo? Can't we just, henceforth, ignore them altogether?..."

and, "incidentally the French have also started carping about Eurostar's latest plan to use German-built Velaro trains through the Channel tunnel, on a new route which links London with Frankfurt, thus by-passing the noisome, forgotten, backwater of Paris. "Non!", said the transport minister Dominique Bussereau, utilising the only French word familiar to the rest of the world, and insisting that all the trains should be built by the French."

Comment? moi? mais non!

[Me Myself]

Mary
A very eloquent and and constructive contribution to this thread.
It displays wisdom, restrain and knowledge.
I am deeply impressed and humbled.

[Squawk7777]

"what is the point of those awful, arrogant, people, those people still living in the 19th century and clinging like deranged limpets to their strange, disappearing lingo? Can't we just, henceforth, ignore them altogether?..."

Who bl00dy cares what other people's ignorant statement is? :yuk: (Actually, that point of view is also valid looking northbound on the south side of the channel.)

Regarding trains, the certification and political issue is probably much bigger than one can imagine: The German railway DB tried to certify their class 152 in Austria where it would not get the certification. Through clever means the last 25 locomotives that were still on order with the German Railways were slightly changed to be identical with the Austrian Railway ÖBB class 1116. The modified DB class 152 was renamed class 182 being identical to the 1116 thus grudgingly getting approval to use Austrian rail. Don't only point your finger at the French, ignorance is universal.

Regarding German technology in their ICE-3 Velaro generation I suggest you read up this year's stories about tech issues with the ICE class 403 and 406 respectively. Non merci, moi je prends le TGV.

[mykul10]

just as long as bi-lingual approach plates don't lead to an accident, that is.

Think about all the unecessary regulations and paperwork that are imposed on us all...largely (but not entirely) at the insistence of the french. Maybe, just maybe this will help one country to see how ludicrous the stupidity of unecessary laws and regulations has become.

What's the betting that being french they just ignore the ruling anyway...that's how they cope with JAA/EASA things that they don't like.

[mary meagher]

My humble contribution to this international fracas was only intended to amuse....Ron Liddle of the Times is entirely responsible for the unforgettable description of the French "clinging like deranged limpets to their strange language......"

The only times I have ventured in my PA18 and encountered vent arrier, terresage, etc. I nearly met a 152 as we both turned final at the same time but from opposite directions. He was right, I was wrong, the French were very kind and forgiving.

Later on on the same journey, becoming seriously uncertain of my position, Tours guided me along a river under a lowering sky until a small airstrip showed up beneath me; the locals were graciously hospitable.

And when leaving Le Mans, and telephoning Le Touquet to say my radio was behaving badly, the kind lady controller had no problem in assuring me in the most charming English "No problem, Madam, we shall give you ze green light!"

Do you suppose these charming differences will ever be submerged into a single continental system of control....and a single international language?
Don't hold your breath.

[captplaystation]

I don't think anyone who has any experience of them wants them to be.
B U T as the OP has emphasised (and he IS French ) the original complaint, vented in this thread, is just stupid bloody-mindness by a bunch of largely by-passed prima donnas.
The whole point is not the "droit" to do things in French if they want, but the mind-numbingly entrenched dogmatic imperative to force it on everyone else , whether they give a sheet or not.

That is just bloody silly.

[irishpilot1990]

i presume this is a joke right?!?!? if any flight crew member of air france cant read the manuals in english...i am shocked! if a guy cant understand english he should not be allowed take off in a pa28 never mind and airbus in western europe!:*

[Kerling-Approsh KG]

At least they're fighting for their mother tongue...

Maybe they're proud of their State?

Maybe they still feel there is a French State to be proud of?

As an Englishman who feels State-less and that he has no State of which to be proud, I can't help taking my hat off to anything that looks like national pride, no matter how petty it might seem under certain lighting conditions.

I'd have emigrated years ago, but even for a fluent French-speaker and avid francophile, decent jobs there are a closed shop. And I can't help applauding that.

[ChristiaanJ]

At least they're fighting for their mother tongue...THEY ARE NOT. They're sh!t-stirring to draw attention to their minute extremist "trade union".
In the best tradition of another minority trade union doing exactly the same in France right now.

I'd have emigrated years ago, but even for a fluent French-speaker and avid francophile, decent jobs there are a closed shop.I doubt that.... having worked in France as a non-Frenchie for about 35 years...
Depends on what YOU call a decent job....

And I can't help applauding that.Could you explain that remark?

CJ

[Squawk7777]

i presume this is a joke right?!?!? if any flight crew member of air france cant read the manuals in english...i am shocked! if a guy cant understand english he should not be allowed take off in a pa28 never mind and airbus in western europe!

What about reading this thread a bit more thoroughly before posting? :ugh:

[KAG]

ChristiaanJ:"The fact that French is not really a technical language doesn't help matters...."Completely free, easy attack towards a language. In addition if we look into it, like you force us to do, let's compare the Nuclear industry in UK versus France, Car industry in UK verus France, Aviation industry in UK versus France, space industry in UK versus France, let's not go there...



Again you ChristiaanJ:"What's the difference between "tangage" et "profondeur", in an aircraft context? None.... both translate to "pitch"...." Again, don't attack this language with, as a weapon, your own shortcomings, in an aircraft context tangage has a very accurate meaning and refers to pitch movement around y (lacet(z)-tangage(y)-roulis(x)), "profondeur" refers to "gouverne de profondeur", which is the elevator, the device. You are completely confused here.
Finally, in french pitch is "assiette", and funny enough this word doesn't appear in your post when you try to translate pitch in french.




While we are all here arguing about languages and translations, the new booming aviation country-you know the country where one fifth of the humanity lives which makes their language the most spoken in the world-this country i don't name domestically do all the radio com in their language, atis in their language, approach plate in their language, SOPs-callouts in their language, checklist in their language, documents/information/NOTAM/weather... In their language, and this language is not french (even if they use their meters/kilograms...) nor english. Yet it is forseen to be the first economic power within 15 years (some say it is already today), and it is forseen to be the most dynamic aviation area in the world in terms of order and developement within years.
CAAC (their civil aviation authority) told the airlines in 2005 that by 2008 every communication-documents would have to be in english by 2008, and everybody in this country ignored it.
Something new, i even hear now (more and more everyday) foreigner crews landing in their capital or just crossing their airspace trying to say some words like "good morning" or "byebye" in the "local" (local today, global tomorrow?) language...

Argue as much as you want about Air France wanting to translate their document, still remember as a fact (to keep everything in perspective) that Air France and France itself was yesterday one of the pionneer in aviation/industry and today is still a leader in aviation industry and especially space -they are the world leader when it comes to put sattelites into orbit- and french is the second mother tongue spoken in europe after german and before english.
What is funny in this kind of argue and debate, in addition to be close minded and blind concerning the evolution of the international developement and reality, this is that the most stubborn are almost always the ones who are able to speak only one language in a cockpit (and the funniest is the ones complaining are not even affected...).

Now, on the historical/philosophical side of the issue:
100 years ago english was not an international language (french was), and today nobody can affirm that 100 hundred years from now (or before!) english will still be an international language, so here is my comment: nowadays the persons, among our pilot community, who were born in an english speaking country (or simply could speak english before they became pilot) shouldn't complain but at the opposite should be happy, it is good time for them.

[ChristiaanJ]

KAG,

I would have bowed to your superior wisdom..... were it not that I've worked for about 35 years in France, of which about 25 years in the aviation industry (in a French-speaking firm), and the remainder in technical documentation and translation.

Completely free, easy attack towards a language.I beg your pardon? "Attack"? Having used both languages for about forty years, I simply expressed my opinion.

Argue as much as you want about Air France wanting to translate their documents....You missed that point as well....
It's not Air France wanting to translate their documents, it's a small minority union trying to p!ss off Air France.

As a matter of fact, Air France does translate a lot of their documents (if they're not already written in French in the first place) for the use of the majority of their personnel, for which knowledge of English is not a prerequisite for being hired, unlike these trouble-stirrers..

CJ

[KAG]

The translation thing with the supposedly consequences that comes with, well I admit I don't know the details and I don't really care.
I was just a bit suprised by all the fuss about it in this thread, thread in english, so written by a majority of person affected in no aspect, no aspect but ideological ones.
It could be translated in french, greek, russian, japanese, mandarin, mongolian, italian, german, arabic, korean, hebrew, I would still don't care.
And if "I" (as a pilot) were born in an english speaking country, "I" would care even less, keeping in mind and being thankful for all the hassle "I" would avoid not being born let's say in portugal (example) aviation language wise. ("I" could be any pilot).

[AnthonyGA]

Unions in France generally are motivated to take action by their own self-interest, rather than a desire to serve the interests of their constituents. Many examples demonstrating this could be cited.

I recall a union that forced an IKEA store to close on Sunday (it had been remaining open on Sundays because it made more money by doing so than it had to pay in fines); after the union won in court, the store fired all the employees it had hired for Sunday work. Difficult to see how the union served the workers in this case (especially since the Sunday workers had been getting loads of extra pay for working on Sundays).

Anyway, this incident clearly seems to be some small, unimportant union trying to deny how small and unimportant it is.

There must be some serious cognitive dissonance at work within the union. Pilots are required to speak and read English reasonably well by ICAO recommendations. If they meet those criteria, they don't need documentation in French. If they need documentation in French, then they must not be fluent enough in English to fly safely internationally.

Unfortunately, technical translations tend to be terrible. Good translations are cripplingly expensive. Bad translations are dangerous. The French are very good at producing very bad translations.

It's bad enough that some English documentation is written by French people with a relatively poor grasp of English, as some examples cited here demonstrate. There are many faux amis (words that look the same but mean different things) between French and English, since so much English vocabulary (about 50%) derived originally from French. The confusions are just enough to dangerously impact safety.

One can only hope that Air France pilots are fluent enough in English to not require badly translated documentation in French. The inverse possibility—Air France pilots with such a poor grasp of English that they cannot read documentation in the language—is scary to contemplate.

[Pitch Up Authority]

The only spin off I see here is to protect the employment market for french speakers.

[ChristiaanJ]

AnthonyGA,
Thanks!
Sensible write-up from somebody who obviously knows what he's talking about (unlike some here).

Anyway, this incident clearly seems to be some small, unimportant union trying to deny how small and unimportant it is.Those of you familiar with the union 'structure' in France will already know that the unions currently causing the 'troubles' only represent a tiny percentage of the total work force.
In this particular case, it's sillyness squared, because there IS a another significant majority pilots union, and these people are only a small minority crowd of 'dissidents' or 'militants' or whatever you want to call them.

Unfortunately, technical translations tend to be terrible.They vary hugely, actually.
Don't confuse the user manual that comes with your DVD player with professional technical translations used in industries (such as aviation) where the translated document matters.

Good translations are cripplingly expensive.Not really. Compared to the amount of effort that went into the product, and the writing of the original documentation, the cost of the translation is usually peanuts. The real problem is that translation is usually done on the cheap and at the last possible minute, subcontracted to agencies, then parcelled out to people without the necessary specialist background, and not crosschecked and proofread properly because the company itself lacks the competence in the target language.
Been there... had to live with it....

Bad translations are dangerous.I couldn't agree more.

The French are very good at producing very bad translations.
A bit unfair.... (I'm not French, BTW). It's not the French in particular... look at your Chinese DVD manual. It's nearly always that not enough attention is given to produce accurate and reliable translations.
Personally, I can usually recognise English-language documentation, even fully professionally produced and accurate, where the source language was French.

It's bad enough that some English documentation is written by French people with a relatively poor grasp of English...Yes.... no.....
I can't comment really, because I usually read "across" those mistaeks, being so accustomed to them. It's a bit like the new Google translations... they're now rarely totally wrong, and I can usually guess what was written in the other language, and get the gist.

One can only hope that Air France pilots are fluent enough in English to not require badly translated documentation in French. The inverse possibility—Air France pilots with such a poor grasp of English that they cannot read documentation in the language—is scary to contemplate.Same here....

CJ

[galaxy flyer]

Having commented on the French strikers thread, I have a question: THEY HAVE MORE THAN ONE PILOTS UNION? How the he'll does that work?

GF

[jcjeant]

Hi,

Little OT ...
Those of you familiar with the union 'structure' in France will already know that the unions currently causing the 'troubles' only represent a tiny percentage of the total work force.
The French worker is one of the least unionized in Europe (I think the Germans and Italians are the champions)
But in France .. when unions move (I mean in general) it's not just union members that move .. but the people following ... and all go in the street.
In France the democracy is expressed by ballot .. but it is also expressed in the street .. more than anywhere else ...
This must be the memories of the revolution .. and as I know .. there was not many people for take the Bastille ..

[Teddy Robinson]

Just maybe ... Our French EU Cousins have got the balance between living and work correct ... and perhaps we should listen rather than following Uncle Sam helter sketlter to the American dream ... aka : work till you die and don't enjoy it ! .. just food for thought .. and the Fr model comes much to mind !!