Flaps + Speedbrakes on Approach?

[Teevee]

I'm really sorry if this question is in the wrong place, but it is a tech based question that might not be picked up if I put in anywhere else.

I was on an A320 coming into EGLL on Monday afternoon about 15.15. As we started down the glide slope I could see the wing and became fascinated by the config. It looked like we had flaps1 and the speedbrakes were at 45 degrees. Obviously as we got further down the glide slope and added more flaps the speedbrakes dropped. But as I've never seen (or never noticed!) speed brakes with flaps on approach before, I just thought I'd ask about it. It was obviously everything was perfectly under control and we made the most comfortable landing from a pax point of view I've ever experienced - As we got off as well as thanking the cabin crew I asked them to thank the pilots as well which I usually forget to do. So I just wanted to ask in what circumstances that initial config might be used. Might it be weather related? It certainly wasn't the best of weather and we'd had a weather related 15 minute hold, or might it be the need to get down quick and 'get off' quick this being EGLL and a lot of other aircraft coming in behind us? Or a combination of these?

As you can guess I'm not a pilot, and I guess for you this would be as normal as you could get, but I was fascinated by it.

[NOLAND3]

The spoilors assist with roll control, are you sure thats not what you were seeing? did you have a clear view of both wings?

Regards

[Wazzoo]

Can't speak directly for the Airbus but sounds like they were just trying to slow down on approach - perhaps due to an ATC speed request or in order to get below a flap limitation speed to extend further flaps.

Using speedbrake at low speeds has little effect but it can help if you're not far off the desired speed and might save dropping the gear early and dragging it in. However speedbrakes with flaps out does cause increased airframe vibration and isn't recommended with larger flap settings which is probably why they were retracted as the flaps were extended further.

[punk666]

The pilot was probably a bit high and needed to decend a lot quicker to get on profile..its usually the case if you rely on the FMC to calculate your decent path.

[Aviophage]

How far out were you? If you have to use speedbrakes on approach, then you need to be grounded until you can plan your descent more accurately.

I have never ever heard or seen any pilot use speedbrakes during approach. It's not recommended by Airbus or most aircraft manufacturers.

[rudderrudderrat]

Hi Aviophage,

Either you've not lived long enough or don't do CDA approaches. ATC often offer a short cut, with speed reductions. Intelligent use of speed brake may be necessary in order to be stable by 1,000 ft.

Please give me your FCOM ref for Speed brake & Flaps.

because mine says:

"SPEEDBRAKES ............................................................ .................... AS RQRD
If the pilot uses speedbrakes to increase the rate of deceleration, or to increase the rate of descent, be aware that VLS with speedbrakes fully extended, in the clean configuration may be higher than green dot speed and possibly > VFE FLAP 1.
The A/THR in speed mode, or the pitch demand in OPEN DES, will limit the speed to VLS. In this situation, the pilot should begin to retract speedbrakes upon reaching VLS + 5 kt and should select FLAP 1, as soon as speed is below VFE NEXT. He may then re-extend the speedbrakes, if necessary. The landing gear may always be extended out of sequence to aid deceleration."

[Wazzoo]

You seem to live in a very black and white world Aviophage.

It is common for even the most sensible and well planned descent to be thrown out the window if ATC decide to cut you short on approach (although EGLL/EGKK are usually very good at giving you track miles to go and sticking to it thats far from the norm in the rest of Europe) and I'd be surprised if you haven't been in the situation where the approach controller is asking you to keep up speed and on handover to tower you're asked to slow to minimum approach speed all the while you're trying performing a low noise/fuel efficient CDA.

No one should be planning a descent and approach with the use of speedbrake but they are there to be used if the situation changes and other means of slowing down/getting down aren't appropriate. Most manufactures don't recommend speedbrake with flaps for the reasons given it but leave it available for use if required.

Based on being in Flaps 1 config in this situation I'd hazard a guess that they were on approach in the 10-15 mile region - now if you are less than 5 miles final and still needing speedbrake, for what worth it is at that late stage, then you should be perhaps be asking how you got into that situation and thinking about bugging out.

[DBate]

If you have to use speedbrakes on approach, then you need to be grounded until you can plan your descent more accurately.

I have never ever heard or seen any pilot use speedbrakes during approach. It's not recommended by Airbus or most aircraft manufacturers. As one of my instructors said many years ago... 'Speedbrakes are a paid part of the aircraft, so why not use them if necessary.'

As for the last sentence of Aviophages statement; Sorry, but I have never heard such nonsense (and not seen in ANY of the manuals I have had the pleasure to study in my carreer).

Regards,
DBate

[TyroPicard]

Perhaps there is a clue in Aviophage's profile...
Commercial Pilot (Glorified Bus Driver)

[SFCC]

Precisely the reason I rarely look on these boards anymore.
I suspect these folk either post through an alcoholic haze or (more likely) haven't got a scooby about what they are writing (perhaps repeating what they have heard from folk who actually DO know something about jet operations)

[Teevee]

Thanks guys. It did feel like we'd been going slightly faster than I'd been accustomed to on previous approaches, but I'd guess that any shaking/bumping was probably weather related as we were coming through some rather grey clouds at the time! We were much further out than 5 miles and I think wazzoo is probably closer with 10-15. If we were in the hold for about 15 minutes I guess ATC were getting as many in as quickly as possible so a higher speed down to a certain level might have been necessary. Certainly as we turned off the runway I could see the usual busy line of traffic heading downwards behind us, and I'm guessing there were quite a few more above the cloud base.

[BOAC]

There are three issues with the use of speedbrake on the approach

1) They cause significant buffet on the tailplane (extreme at Flap 30) for which it is not 'lifed' in structural testing or design. Most airlines in my experience (737) prefer not to use them above Flap5. If you doubt me, wait until you are seated with a view of the tailplane when someone uses flaps and airbrake.

2) They increase the stall speed and make Vref no longer valid as a guide to 'safe' margins

3) Most airlines forbid their use below 1000'.

[DutchBird-757]

You'll need to be carefull on the E170/195 as you don't have speedbrakes available above Flaps 1. (<190knots) On the E190 if you're heavy and in icing you got a fight on your hands to the the speed off. So plan ahead and otherwise your escape is lowering the gear.

[Aviophage]

Thank-you for backing me up BOAC. My airline is not fond of pilots who use the speedbrakes below 10,000ft.

To the user who has claimed I post through a drunken haze. Excuse me, like a majority of commercial pilots, I am teetotal. Do not question my aviation knowledge or experience either. I've been flying since I was 15 years old.

Like I've previously exclaimed, using speedbrakes to aid with your approach is a bad technique. If ATC cut you in for an earlier than expected approach and you're too high/fast, you can always reject their request and continue with your planned approach. Yes, you may touchdown a bit later but I don't suffer from "getthereitus".

[bArt2]

My airline is not fond of pilots who use the speedbrake below 10,000ft

In a few minutes you're going to tell us not to use it below 20000 feet. Why put yourself back in line for the approach if you could fix it with a bit of SB below 10000 feet. Although I do agree you should not use it with more than flaps 5 (737NG)

[Aviophage]

Well, if you had planned your approach more carefully, you wouldn't be off the profile so much that you require the use of speedbrakes.

[bArt2]

Not quite, one of our base airfields tends to keep us level at FL60 until entering their TMA bringing us 500-1000 feet above path every time. So you plan whatever you want, you'll be high anyway. So it's either AB below FL100 or put the gear down 20 miles out. I could try sideslipping :E next time but I'm not shure the cabin crew would be very fond of that.

Planning the descend and approach is not so difficult as long as ATC does not interfere too much with your plan, but if they do why not use the tools you have available.

[rudderrudderrat]

you can always reject their request and continue with your planned approach. Yes, you may touchdown a bit later but I don't suffer from "getthereitus".

You say you'd rather take extra track miles than use speed brake - then you must have miscalculated your profile - but refuse to admit it.

Do not question my aviation knowledge or experience either. I've been flying since I was 15 years old. I suggest you ask for your money back for the CRM course you did.

If you are 40, that makes only 25 year experiences - many of us have far more. I still make mistakes but I'm still adding to my knowledge. Sounds like you've stopped learning.

[Right Way Up]

Excuse me, like a majority of commercial pilots, I am teetotal

Now I know you are not a pilot. :}:} Nice trolling.

You are not related to SSG by chance? ;)

[Wazzoo]

I'm sorry Aviophage, I fail to see how BOAC has backed you up.

I think most who have posted so far would agree wholeheartedly with his statements.

Using speedbrakes with more than Flaps 5 (737)/Flap 1 (A320) is discouraged due to buffet and increased stall speed and never use speedbrakes below 1000' - completely agree.

But an airline thats 'not fond' of speedbrake use below 10,000..I mean come on, that's the only region you should need to use it, above 10,000 make full use of speed to get back on to profile. Below 10,000 90% of airlines and airports have speed restrictions that make the use of speedbrakes necessary when the situation changes. I would love to fly into some the airports you seem to because they sound like a breeze with no weather, ATC, other aircraft!

Planning a good idle thrust descent - definitely. Being ready to revise that plan and make full use of all the tools Boeing and Airbus have provided you when the situation changes, even better.

If you're turning down very reasonable ATC requests in a busy environment where you're not the only guy out there just because you don't want to use speedbrake, I don't blame them if they send you to the back of the approach queue to burn another tonne of fuel and turn up 20 minutes late.

[TopBunk]

Aviophage

You clearly believe in ideals on your planet.

It's a shame that you don't inhabit the same reality as the rest of us where things conspire to tinker with the best laid plans, be it the weather, ATC or whatever.

I worship you as an aviation God:mad:

[Max Angle]

Excuse me, like a majority of commercial pilots, I am teetotal

Its obvious that you know the business inside out, good show. :ok:

10 miles out going down the glide in a 319 with no headwind, ATC now want 160 to 4 miles, thrust will almost certainly already be at idle. Speedbrakes for a few seconds or gear, your call. I would say that 50% of the 319 approaches I make into LHR require the use of speedbrake to promptly comply with ATC speed requests. You don't have the faintest idea what you are talking about.

[763 jock]

Another fantastic post from Aviophage. Much like the drivel on the A320 beacon thread.....he's right, anyone that does anything different is wrong.

Perhaps he could explain why Airbus, Boeing etc put speed-brakes on aircraft in the first place? Clearly they are not needed after all. :ugh:

[galaxy flyer]

Aviophage

You aren't the NWA pilot who, when asked by the ATCO to slow and descend, answered back, "the speed brakes are for my mistakes, NOT YOURS!"?

GF

[Basil]

I know that this is a bit confrontational for Tech Log but I'm 68 and I thought all the anti speed brake dinosaurs were extinct.
They are there to be used - in accordance with the flying manual.

He may then re-extend the speedbrakes, if necessary. The landing gear may always be extended out of sequence to aid deceleration."
Good to see.

Re stall margins: a competent pilot would not be pulling a handful of speedbrake close to target speed.

Getting back to the question, yes, some types permit speed brake with flap some did not and there may be a max flap setting for its use. As has been said, on the final approach it is more likely to be roll-assist.

[DutchBird-757]

Why all those reservation about the speedbrakes? If it's there, use it when you need to. It doesn't make you a bad pilot. Even the best planned approach can result in the use of speedbrakes. Even the ones you've done a hundred times.

Then about buffet. We fly the E170/190 into LCY and use the Steep Approach funtion which commands the number 4 and 5 outer wing spoilers to offset slightly while the control column is in a neutral position, creating the drag required to increase the rate of descent. However, especially on a light E190 it creates a lot of buffet. Far 'worse' than normal use during full deployment inflight. I've done an empty ferry flight and it was so bad that you're eyes had difficulty focussing on the glareshield due to the vibration. :eek:

[con-pilot]

Some aircraft you cannot use the speedbrakes/spoilers with any flaps extended. Such as the 727. The primary reason was due to the sink rate of the 727 with flaps 30, let alone flaps 40, that would develop with the combination. There is no structural reason.

And yes, I did on a few occasions use the spoilers with flaps 30 in 727, as long as you remained aware of the sink rate and reacted according you did not have any problems.

One thing we used to do in the sim during recurrency training was after we had finished all the requirements, the instructor would place us at the outer marker at 10,000, 250kts at LAX and tell us to see if we could land without changing headings. You can do it, believe it or not.

First put the gear down while extending the spoilers, reverse all three engines and then start putting the flaps down on speed. You end up with a hell of deck angle, trust me. The closest to the end of the runway I ever landed was about 2,000 feet past the end of the runway.

Now, there is no way on earth I'd try that in a real 727. You can really trust me on this.

Oh, one other reason that one would have the speedbrake/spoiler extended with flaps down in other aircraft than the 727 would be to keep the engines spooled up for adequate bleed air flow for anti-icing in icing conditions.

[411A]

Speed brakes with flaps extended, differ by type.

B707, not allowed
L1011, not recommended.
B767, no restriction that I am aware of.

So, unlike sox you might purchase in a department store, one size does not fit all.

Simple, really.

IF in doubt, RTFB.:ugh:

[Capt Claret]

To add to 411A, the Douglas/Boeing 717 prohibits the use of speed brake with Flaps at 20 degrees or more (flap settings available 13/18/25/40). From a practical perspective, they're damn near useless below about 250 kias any how.

[stilton]

On our 767's we have a limitation of no speed brakes below 800 Feet or with wing flaps at 25 or 30.



Same on the 757.



I suspect the flap setting limitation is a Boeing one.

[DownIn3Green]

Ever flown into Burbank, ILS RWY 08????

Maintain 3'000 until passing Van Nyes, keep your speed up, cleared to land...

Can't do it all...at this point, time to abandon the approach and try again...just ask SWA...

Not a slam on ATC, that's just the way it is there...be smart or pump your fuel from the CITGO station outside the blast fence...

P.S. ILS Rwy 08 has a 250' DA...

[BOAC]

P.S. ILS Rwy 08 has a 250' DA... :eek:- start digging:)

[Permafrost_ATPL]

Aviophage, it's "getthereitis", not "getthereitus"

Just fighting fire with fire :E

[Alt Crz Green]

2) They increase the stall speed and make Vref no longer valid as a guide to 'safe' margins

Monsieur Airbus kindly adjusts the minimum speed (Vls) on the speed tape to take account of the speedbrake. He will even add thrust to stay above Vls if necessary, with autothrust engaged, whilst of course sternly rebuking you for power against speedbrake with an amber caption.
Speedbrake + flap is allowed on the A320 except for flap full. If it's allowed and necessary, not using it is a poor choice. It's a flight control, use it as such. Whatever is necessary (within SOP's) to be stabilised by 1000/500' should be done.

[BOAC]

Zut alor! Un peu trop malin, n'est-ce-pas? Impressed. (I did say '737')

[Alt Crz Green]

I said .'737'

We all have our crosses to bear ;)

[ClimbSequence]

Using speedbrakes with more than Flaps 5 (737)/Flap 1 (A320) is discouraged due to buffet and increased stall speed and never use speedbrakes below 1000' - completely agree.

I think the FCTM states not to use Speedbrake with flaps 15 or greater, so technically you can extend your speedbrake up to Flaps 10.
1000' AGL as the maximum height to use it (limitations section).
At least on the EFIS series, Denti can enlighten us with the NG's

Happy Landings!!! :ok:

[EpsilonVaz]

A very common situation is being a bit over the flap 2 speed on approach, but too far out to justify gear, whack a bit of the old Geneva lever out to reduce the speed, extend flap 2 and everything is happy days :ok:.

I challenge Aviophage to a battle of the internets!

[Permafrost_ATPL]

the old Geneva lever

Or the Southerlies at Madrid. Speedbrake out at 8000 ft to deal with the totally impractical 200 kt speed request from ATC. Then at 6000 ft you finally give up and drop the gear :ok:

[PantLoad]

It's best to follow SOP. One very common error I used to see among less-experienced types was to extend flaps at or near Vfe. While this does help in slowing down/getting down at higher flap settings, it is pretty much useless at the initial flap settings. (All you're really doing is beating up the flaps/slats....not really adding much drag.)

Those of us who fly (in my case, 'used to fly') the 320, know the SOP....speed brake is good down to/including FLAPS 1. "Not recommended" FLAPS 2 or more. Auto-retract with FLPAS FULL on the 319/320, FLAPS 3 on the 321.

Gear can, of course, be extended at 250 KIAS (below FL250 :O ) but preferably at or below 220 KIAS to save gear door wear and tear...and to minimize soiled pants among passengers. Gear works good to add drag.

Once deployed, it's cumbersome to retract the gear.....once you've realized that you've thrown out the gear too early....now, you're having to add thrust earlier than you wanted. (I've never made that mistake! :bored:)
(Joking, of course.)

Granted, the speed brakes work better at high speeds (duh!), but will also work (to a much lesser extent) at low speeds. Still better than working out flaps/slats at Vfe.

Used to fly with a captain on the 727 who refused to give me flaps until I was exactly at the SOP flap speed schedule. He told me if I had planned my descent and approach better, I wouldn't have this problem.

While everyone hated to fly with this guy, he did teach me to better plan my descents. (Actually, he was on hell of a pilot. I learned a lot from him.....once I got past the yelling, screaming, and smart-assed comments.)

So, again, it's best to follow the SOP. Believe it or not, the guys who write this stuff, generally know more about it than you do. (There are exceptions...but few.) SOP keeps you out of trouble. I've found the SOP, if valid, worked to my advantage.

"Sorry Captain XXXX (the chief pilot), but I was merely following the SOP." This doesn't give him much ammunition to shoot you with...does it?


Fly safe,

PantLoad

[rudderrudderrat]

Hi Pantload,

I agree that we should always follow our SOPs and that they may differ slightly between operators.

Ours says that we may use speed brakes & Flaps but with the following caution:

"If the aircraft speed is significantly higher than S on the glide slope, or the aircraft does not decelerate on the glide slope, extend the landing gear in order to slow down the aircraft. (which agrees with yours)

It is also possible to use speedbrakes. However the flight crew should be aware that the use of speedbrakes causes an increase in VLS. Using speedbrakes beyond flap 1 may also lead to large variations in pitch.

For A319 and A321: NOTE:
Using speedbrakes whilst changing flap configuration may lead to the A/THR erroneously maintaining a target speed of V APP target +10kts. In this case pressing the FCU A/THR button to switch the A/THR off and then back on should reset the correct target. The ECAM ENG THR LOCK may be triggered. Alternatively manual thrust maybe used by performing a normal disconnect."

Before Aviophage tells me I should have anticipated the shorter track mileage, the procedure has reduced the number of GAs due not being stable by 1,000ft.