What would you do??

[foxmoth]

Sitting in the clubhouse today (I instruct at the club but the other instrructor instructs for a heli school using the same premises) I overheard an instructor teaching nav, the Instructor asked "if you were flying at 145 knots per hour:ugh: how long would it take you to fly 45 knots, just wondering how other instructors would react to this and what you would do/say?

[what next]

Hello!

...and what you would do/say? Do you know, where the unit "knots" has it's origin? See here: Knot (unit) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Knot_%28unit%29)

So, as a matter of fact, "knots per hour" comes very close to the original meaning of the term! And regarding the question: No, I would never publicly interfere with the lesson of a fellow instructor. And especially not regarding such an unimportant matter.

[Chesty Morgan]

Ah but "by definition" a Knot is 1 nautical mile per hour. To say 1 Knot per hour is, therefore, a unit of acceleration.

All from that Wiki link!

But you're right it doesn't really matter to a PPL.

Maybe just have a private word with the instructor concerned and point out his error.

[foxmoth]

It may be the origin, but it is NOT a correct term today and was something that was always emphasised to me as being incorrect - in fact using "Knots per hour" nowadays is technically a unit of acceleration and is the sort of error I would certainly not expect an instructor to make.
As far as "publicly interfere with the lesson of a fellow instructor." I would certainly agree nothing should be done publicly or in front of his student and I do not think I put anything in my post to suggest that, but he IS teaching the wrong thing, which IMHO is not acceptable.

[what next]

...but he IS teaching the wrong thing, which IMHO is not acceptable. Wrong maybe, but not safety relevant, therefore unimportant to me! How many instructors (even textbooks and POHs!) confuse "mass" and "weight"? Physically as different as speed and accelleration. Yet again: Totally unimportant.

There has been a thread recently about some guy demonstrating single-engine stalls in a twin below Vmca. That would be something to talk about with the instructor concerned. Urgently. Even publicly, if he won't listen privately. But "knots per hour"? I couldn't care less.

[+TSRA]

Agreed - far more important things to worry about than something as small as that.

[Dan Winterland]

"Do you know, where the unit "knots" has it's origin? See here: Knot (unit) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia".

And another piece of nautical trivia: The lump of wood the piece of string was attached to was not unreasonably knwon as the "log'', and the results were entered in the ''log book''.

Modern boat water speed indicators are usually paddle wheel devices, but are still known as ''logs''.

[foxmoth]

Wrong maybe, but not safety relevant, therefore unimportant to me!

Not sure if you have kids, but presumably then if you had them you would not be too bothered if your childrens teachers teach your kids the wrong things - after all, this is not going to be safety relevant!:rolleyes:

[BabyBear]

foxmoth, for what it is worth I agree with you. If a job is worth doing it is worth doing right and to argue that it does not cause a safety issue is totally irrelevant.

If I was the student I would expect to be taught properly.

If I was the instructor I would hope a fellow instructor would point out such an error to prevent me from making it in the future and therefore improving the service I offered.

I would certainly not wish to continue making the same mistake, irrespective of how trivial.

This student may not be aware of his instructors error, however that can't be guaranteed for all.

[S-Works]

Oh my god........ :ugh:

Let he who is without sin cast the first stone.......

Have non of you self righteous bunch ever meant to say one thing and have another come out? Have you never made a trivial mistake?

Orwell would be proud of you.
:ugh:

[Say again s l o w l y]

Was everything else he said correct? If so, then merely point out that it could be confusing and that it isn't the normal convention to use that terminology.

Are you looking to stick the knife into this person for some reason? Or have you just got nothing better to worry about?

[foxmoth]

Are you looking to stick the knife into this person for some reason?
Again, not sure where you are getting my intentions from, certainly not from anything I can see in my post, just looking to see what others would do and I must confess to being surprised how many seem to think teaching the wrong facts is irrelevant, especially when I come across so many instructors who insist that their way is the only way to fly. As it was I spoke to the other guy when he was by himself (and no - not in an attacking way) - just wish I had not bothered after though with the reaction I got.:ouch:

[Say again s l o w l y]

What he said was hardly the crime of the century. It's just a small matter of convention. I thought the answer would be obvious, have a quiet word in his ear pointing out the mistake.

I wouldn't talk to him within earshot of a student and I wouldn't be having a go at him, so I fail to see why it is necessary to check what everyone else would do before acting.
The only options are:
1) Do nothing, just chuckle internally everytime you see him.
2) March into the briefing room and castigate him infront of his student.
3) Talk to him privately.

Or I suppose there is a 4) Start a thread on a well known flying Bulletin Board and see if he reads it and recognises what he said.

As already mentioned, it's not a conventional way of talking about distance and speed, but it's hardly completely incorrect either.

[foxmoth]

Well you are not reading my posts properly - I have already pointed out that I did go with option 3 at the time, it is more the reaction I got that resulted in this thread. Maybe this is why there are occasionally remarks about quality of instructors these days - nobody cares what the standards are!

[Say again s l o w l y]

I don't want to go around in a circle, but you asked what others would do. I have just given the only 4 options I see as sensible, as requested.

[Flyingmac]

Right. It won't matter. Until it appears on a student's exam answer.

(I'd leave said instructor an anonymous note).In an American accent.

[Say again s l o w l y]

Maybe this is why there are occasionally remarks about quality of instructors these days - nobody cares what the standards are!

Well, that's a sweeping statement that's so far from the truth that it's unbelieveable.

Judging the competency of a fellow FI based soley on one remark is ludicrous and has all the hallmarks of the reactionary nonsense that blights this forum and the mass media. This chap might be the best FI ever to walk the planet, he may be the worst, but based on one comment, it is impossible to tell.

[S-Works]

Exactly my point SAS.

As I said, let he who is without sin cast the first stone. I shall be watching foxmoth with great intent in future and will run a score board on any mistakes he/she makes..........

[Flyingmac]

If I overheard ANYONE saying "Knots per hour" I would assume he wasn't a pilot. As I'm sure would many of us. If a student is savvy enough to spot the mistake it might just undermine his confidence in his instructor, and remove him from GOD status. It's a small thing, but not without importance.

[jez d]

1, sound the crash alarm to ensure you have everyone's attention.

2, close the circuit to all inbound traffic and divert local traffic to their alternates.

3, grab the bull horn off the Ops desk and call for QUIET in the most commanding voice you can muster.

4, drag the offending instructor by his ears out of the briefing room and then frogmarch him outside to where the club aircraft are parked, motioning the assembled throng of onlookers (including the offended student) to follow you.

5, using the tow rope kept in the back of the firetruck, tie the instructor to the nearest prop with his arms out in a sacrificial pose.

6, grab a couple of jars of Avgas off the samples shelf in the oil store and liberally drench the instructor

7, nonchantly taking a book of matches out of your pocket, make eye contact with the instructor and ask him: "So, this knots per hour malarky I heard you coming out with just now, you sure about that... hmm?"

8, without breaking eye contact, remove a match from the book and take a step forward, and say: "I'll say that again, sonny... are you sure that knots per hour was what you meant to say?"

By now, it's likely the instructor will be pleading for forgiveness and swearing by Icarus Almighty that he'll never make the same mistake again. Too late.

10, turn around so your back is to the instructor and you're facing the crowd that will have undoubtedly amassed. Strike the match and without a backwards glance toss it over your shoulder, and say: "We take instructing VERY seriously round here... now, who'd like to explain the quadrilateral rule to me?"


(Sorry, Foxmoth, couldn't resist :ok:)

[foxmoth]

Maybe this is why there are occasionally remarks about quality of instructors these days - nobody cares what the standards are!

That was not actually directed at the instructor who made the remark, though his reaction to me did make me think he did not give a damn, it was more to the instructors on this forum who do not seem to give a damn about standards either:mad:

jez - at least you seem to want to do something, though it is probably not quite the way I personally would go about things:p

(And bose-x, if you hear me teaching something incorrectly please feel free to take me to one side and have a word - I think you will find that I am actually quite receptive - we might end up with a debate if I disagree, but I am always open to being shown to be wrong!)

[Say again s l o w l y]

You're not quite getting it. Of course people care about the standard of FI's. Some of us have run schools and had to work like crazy to ensure that what is taught is always good.

My point is that you've taken it upon yourself to be judge, juror and executioner over one misused phrase. You aren't an helicopter pilot or FI and so are unlikely to have any idea about whether this chap is good, bad or indifferent.

Everyone makes mistakes, even pilots... I guarantee that if I sat in on your briefings and flights for a day, I'd could pull you up on all manner of things. That doesn't necessarily make you a rubbish FI or me a brilliant one. You could probably do the same with any other FI yourself.

So, you've had a word, explained to the bloke his mistake and that should be the end of it. To try and make out that other people aren't interested in "standards" or that the industry is full of incompetent idiots based on this one overheard briefing is nonsense. He might be an idiot, but there's more to being a good FI than just terminology.

[foxmoth]

Sorry SAS, to me it is you that is not getting it - I was not so much upset over one misused phrase as the fact that he, and apparently half the instructors here do not think it matters if we teach correctly or not. Also, I did not at any point AFAIK accuse this guy of being a bad instructor (anyway, since when does a helo pilot/instructor navigate differently to a fixed wing one - also FYI I was actually a rotary pilot in a past life!), merely asked what others would have done and then point out his reaction when I made it known that I had spoken to him discretly. Anyway, as most people seem to think this irrelevant and either are missing my point or think I am most in the wrong here for bringing this up I will not be returning to this post.

[Say again s l o w l y]

Threads on Pprune don't always go the way you think they will!

There are some differences in Heli navigation, not in how we do it, but there are obvious changes in things like looking for off airfield landing sites. I don't know many fixed wing pilots who use OS maps for example! (I too am a heli pilot.)

You did the right thing in talking to him, but it's your subsequent points that I have the issue with. I (and I know Bose is too) am very concerned with the standard of teaching that goes on and I do agree that this bloke could be a problem, but I just don't think it's good enough to have a go at someone or draw conclusions about our industry in general from one bit of phraseology.

Yes, it's not a usual thing to say, but it isn't technically incorrect either. A knot is of course 1 nautical mile per hour, but it's hardly crime of the century to mix up the terms.

It's also unsurprising that you got a slightly odd reaction from him. Some random bloke wanders up and tells you that you're doing something that is very minor albeit wrong, is bound to put you on the back foot.

I've had people try and do that to me (they were actually wrong, not I) and they got sent away with a flea in their ear for 1) Being wrong themselves. 2) Being a pain in the ar*e.

[Sygyzy]

Well, I'm pleased that after two pages this has been sorted.

In future I'll just go ahead and use miles when I actually mean miles per hour, metres when I really mean metres per second. Feet in runway distance to go terms when I meant metres. Should I need to go-around on a missed approach I shall declare 'overshooting' and disregard what ATC think of that. I shall refer to oktas when the metar is talking about sky partially obscured and we'll see just how long it takes the rest of the crew the take me to task for talking b:mad:. Since some of these are non safety related I expect I'll see another two pages of debate as to whether they're relevant to the topic.

But you guys are at the cutting edge of teaching the future to fly-so that's all right then. And all because some poor unfortunate thought to ask how best to tackle a tricky problem of correcting poor (yes poor) instructing technique.


Sod knots per hour, why not call them apples-it makes about as much sense.:ugh:

s

[S-Works]

You know I just told my dog to '****down'. As the words came out of my mouth I thought she would take a dump on the carpet, fortunately she realised it was a slip of the tongue and sat down in stead and stuck her paw out for a treat and thats just a Yorkie pup........

A slip of the tongue hardly makes a bad Instructor, personally if I had done the same and Foxmouth had come and foisted his opinion on me, I would probably have given him a flea in his ear as well.

We are all human and sometimes we make mistakes. It is not our job to be all self righteous and act as the training police when we here a slip up. We are all professionals and a little bit of camaraderie should not go amiss.......

And I will say again for the last time..... He who is without sin cast the first stone.

[RTN11]

As this slip of the tounge was during a ground briefing, I would think it was a simple matter of a bloke not multi-tasking well. Quite probably he was trying to write one thing on the board while saying something else, and had a brain fart.

[Vortex Thing]

I would ask him about it phrased as a question.

Bloggs please forgive my professional curiosity and lack of knowledge but I was thinking of taking up some of this rotary black magic stuff that you do.

I am about to purchase the Wagenthingy book but wondered if there were any other substantial differences say in say aerodynamics or navigation apart from the obvious......I couldn't help but over hear that you said X to a student the other day is the phraesology different in rototary parlance or did I misunderstand what you were saying as in fixed wing it is alwasy said in way Y...

Would you recommend that book and would you like a coffee/beer/smoke.......

job done

[mad_jock]

Alternatively you could use the scottish advanced CRM method.

"oi ya fud, whit ****e were ya telling that poor bastard, knots per hour ya knob, WTF, you need a word with yourself."

If you get any lip back just kick him in the chugs (as patented by SAS)

Don't worry most of these rotary instructors are skinny wee runts so you should be able to take him.

:ok:

[Flyingmac]

MJ. In recognition of your last post you have been awarded the title of
HONORARY YORKSHIREMAN.:ok:

[JTN]

Foxmoth

Any chance he did it deliberately, as a test of the student's understanding? And was hoping against hope for "what the hell are you talking about?" in response, from his post-solo nav student?

Just a thought...

[BabyBear]

Don't be silly JTN, as bose-x and RTN 11 have decreed it was a slip of the tongue, no doubt due to there superior powers of knowledge and/or telepathy, it can't possibly have been as you suggest.:rolleyes:

[S-Works]

Don't be silly JTN, as bose-x and RTN 11 have decreed it was a slip of the tongue, no doubt due to there superior powers of knowledge and/or telepathy, it can't possibly have been as you suggest.

I think if you bothered to actually engage your brain before your mouth/fingers you would see that we were trying to offer an alternative view rather than succumb to the lynch mob......
:ugh:

[BabyBear]

bose-x, don't try and backtrack now you clearly inferred it WAS a slip of the tongue, if indeed it was then it must have been 2 consecutive slips of the tongue, which is possible, but less likely.

Someone posted giving an overview of a situation and asking for an opinion, simple really, until you try to take control in questioning what actually was witnessed by the OP in stating it was a slip of the tongue, despite it looking highly unlikely.

If, as you say, it is merely offering an alternative view then your method of doing so makes it difficult to recognise it as such and looks more like you were having a right dig with a heavy dose of sarcasm thrown in. Hardly a professional, or mature, approach to offering an alternative view to a fellow instructor, yet you attack the OP for being 'petty':D

[FREQUENTFLYER1234]

I said the exact same think the other day, I was giving a nav brief and asking the student the same type of questions in a few different scenarios. I was caught up in the moment or got distracted, I can't remember and it slipped out, I did however correct myself and all was forgotten.

These things happen, you can be thrown off track by a distraction, such as someone putting there head around the corner of the briefing room or a million other things.

Leave the poor guy alone, there's much worse things to worry about.

[Dan the weegie]

Does a Yorkshireman know what a fud is? ;)

I'm off home to hang out the shopping, it's windy and it'll be dry soon.

[Blues&twos]

How about from a student's perspective? I would find it rather odd that my instructor didn't apparently know something as simple as his units. Wouldn't inspire confidence...

And where I work, mad jock's method of correction is the most widely used, best understood and successful system!

[B200Drvr]

Its going to take a long time for a heli student to fly anything that goes 145 Knots. So there is lots of time for Him or Her to be corrected. :D

[DFC]

Even helicopter pilots experience tailwinds from time to time!!

[S-Works]

Oooh! Babybear, want to make a fight of it with me then? Bring it on!!

There is no backtracking going on. I merely observed that I would have seen this as a slip of the tongue and not a reason to go and stick my nose on another instructor or start an internet forum lynch mob.

I assume you have never made a mistake a slip of the tongue or otherwise, the same as foxmoth which entitles you to join him as judge jury and executioner?

See if you can read a solid dose of sarcasm into that......
;)

[BabyBear]

Bose, there you go again exaggerating with reference to lynch mobs to suit your own cause. The only mention of lynch mobs has come from your camp.:=

Some fellow has a misunderstanding and another tried to help, nothing to get excited about. Had it been a slip of the tongue then I would suggest he would have said as much when it was pointed out to him, wouldn't you?:ok:

Anyway it's not something the instructor or the student should get worked up about, however in my opinion it is something that should be addressed.

Now your opinion may differ and that of course is your prerogative, but whether you like it or not my opinion along with the OP's is every bit as valid.:p

[B2N2]

OMG this thread is a riot.....

No I would not correct him, slip of the tongue, whatever.
This is what a colleague told me one day I put my foot in my mouth; " you can't be an ace everyday.."
Trust me (us), the student is not going to be any worse off, they only retain 15% of what you say in ground school anyway. That's why you send them home to study afterward.

[VFE]

My reaction to the originator of this thread is that if all you have to worry about is what another instructor is saying to his student during a briefing then consider yourself lucky. It is none of your business. Go and wash an aeroplane if you are sat twiddling your thumbs! ;)

VFE.

[mad_jock]

I disagree with that VFE.

At a school it is beholden on all instructors to work towards a quality product with standards. If you hear a fellow instructor talking out of context or misusing jargon it is in everyones interest to sort it out.

I know we tend to see rotary as a different breed but the fundementals of nav etc are going to be the same.

But the who does the talking to to whom is very dependent on the personalities involved.

Myself if someone had picked me up on a tongue slip like described I would be full of thanks to them. It could have been the least/most experenced instructor or even student in the place. I wouldn't have a problem with them speaking to me personally or going through the "chain of command"

What does come across from the poster is that there is no form of standards within the building that works in a meaningfull manner. If there was there would have been no issue.

to CFI(fixed wing): "mate just heard one of the rotary boys talking about knots per hour in a Nav brief"

CFI (fixed wing): "cheers I will bring it up and list it on the points for the next standards meeting, there are a few other pieces of suspect terminology creeping in, leave it with me"

A couple of weeks later memo goes out to all instructors about using correct terminology the "knots per hour" is mention as an example along with a reason why this is incorrect. No finger pointed, no mention of names of or flavour of aviation. Problem sorted.

As soon as you get more than 2 instructors working together you need to have a process in place for this sort of thing. If for nothing else than to decided which of the many ways of skinning a cat you are all going to teach intially. So the poor student knows if they are coming or going if they have to swap instructors.

[foxmoth]

Well I was going to leave this post well alone, but Bose-x is again accusing me of the same as foxmoth which entitles you to join him as judge jury and executioner?
Again, where did I say anything that particularly judged this instructor (at least, before you yourself made the observation about what standard of instructor he was), I overheard an instructor make a BASIC error and then asked what people would do about it - no judgement there on his capability. Not being perfect I may well in the past have made errors when instructing and would like to think othrs could point this out to me without me getting upset or it making me a bad instructor.
I have no idea of the general instructing ability of this chap I do not have the information to make that observation and have no wish to judge anyone on one piece of overheard briefing.:=

[Vortex Thing]

Mad Jock

Spot on agree with you, one of the biggest issues we have in GA aviation and to a lesser extent in commercial aviation is that of standardisation.

Some PPL schools seem to think that SOPs are the devil that only airlines use and that they overcomplicate matters.

If oft appears that they forget when times are hard, stress is high and cockpit workload is heavy (i.e all students in the early phases of flying) it is then that not having to think too deeply about it and just following the skills, drills and SOPs will at some point probably save their lives.

Bose X and Foxmoth you seem to have a problem being corrected full stop. It may be a minor transgression but wrong is wrong, how wrong is it that we can let something go before we correct it?

Does that not lead to the the well we will just firmly apply one SOP and loosely apply another or that rule is not as important as this rule type scenarios!

One of the corner stones of my previous military flying was that rank and position/appointment were relevant only to specific phases of work.

i.e of course it is the Squadron Commanders job to discipline Sgt X for being late/fighting/matrimonial indiscretion, etc etc but if same Sqn Comd is meant to be time on target +/- 30 secs and is late then they are late and Sgt Bloggs will rightly say "Boss you were late don't sc**w it up next time please, Sir" This was widely accepted as at the end of the day we are all after the same thing every time it has to be right or we have to practice it again until it is.

At the end of the day there are only so many second chances that we get. The better we train, the more self critical we are, the more professional, safe and efficient our aviating is and are we not just that little bit more proud when we have a nice day/night out AND do it all correctly to boot rather than just hoping it will all be ok and saying things like well it was only a minor error and it worked out ok so who really cares. YOU SHOULD CARE you fly in the same skies!

[Solar]

I must be slow, it took me to post 25 to catch on as to what the apparent problem was.

[Cusco]

A telephone scammer who rang me once to buy (or rather con me out of) my aeroplane gave himself away very early in the conversation when in response to my answer to his question about performance he asked me 'what are knots?'

Cusco

[LH2]

Modern boat water speed indicators are usually paddle wheel devices

Don't know about recreational boats. FWIW on the big stuff they're usually Doppler backscatter jobs... still known as waterlogs as you point out, though.

And now if I can have the prize for thread drift of the day please... :)

[LH2]

the Instructor asked "if you were flying at 145 knots per hour how long would it take you to fly 45 knots

Was he French by any chance? They do refer to "nauts" (as in nautical miles / milles nautiques) which spoken with a slight French accent sounds similar to "knots" (and spoken with a thick French accent sounds similar to "my cat ate your dog", but I digress).

That still doesn't explain the use of "nauts/knots per hour". If it was the latter, I (as a hypothetic student) would have probably cancelled the course, as it shows ignorance of a very basic concept, and would have got me wondering what else he doesn't know that he is supposed to teach me. If he was unreceptive to criticism (assuming a tactful approach, of course) that would make me particularly concerned.

On a different note:

And I will say again for the last time.....

Thank for that! You were becoming a bit repetitive there. :p

He who is without sin cast the first stone.

I'm an atheist and therefore have no concept of sin. Does that count? Oh, disregard, don't really want to know. :bored:

[charliegolf]

What about the bloke himself? If he was walking about with his flies open, you'd tell him wouldn't you? Or is the received wisdom to let him look a tw@t?

CG

[Tasslehoff]

From a student's point of view: I'd like to be taught the correct things, even if it is something that might seem a minor issue... Sometimes small things stick in our mind's and as mentioned in a previous post: Until the wrong answer is given by a student in an exam...

[S-Works]

From a student's point of view: I'd like to be taught the correct things, even if it is something that might seem a minor issue... Sometimes small things stick in our mind's and as mentioned in a previous post: Until the wrong answer is given by a student in an exam...

Brave, throwing yourself into the lions den....... :p

[Capt Pit Bull]

People that jumble up units invariably have a jumbled up idea about maths and physics. It might look like a little thing but actually its the tip of the iceberg.

pb

[Intercepted]

People that jumble up units invariably have a jumbled up idea about maths and physics. It might look like a little thing but actually its the tip of the iceberg.I agree. There are qualified math and physics teachers and engineers knowing the units joining flying schools to learn how to fly.

If my instructor would have messed up units consistently in the ground school I would have lost confidence for both him and the flying school. He would also have had to take the embaressment of me as a student correcting him in front of the other students.

I don't think an instructor has to be an expert in math and physics, but I would expect him to get the units relevant to the profession of flying correct!

This is all about professionalism, something that probably is even more important in avitaion than some other trades.

[mad_jock]

People that jumble up units invariably have a jumbled up idea about maths and physics. It might look like a little thing but actually its the tip of the iceberg.

How very true, and proberly why there was such a negative reaction when the subject was brought up.

And as for letting a fellow instructor wander around with his fly undone. To right I would. My best mate was wandering around with his shirt end sticking out of his zip for 3 lessons. All the students were briefed by flyingschoolsec not to tell him. He also for about a month was announcing that he was away off for fud (he is from the west country I believe it means food) means something totally different in Scotland.

[mykul10]

The subject of this thread and many reponses to it is ....errr worrying to say the least. If an instructor is so misinformed/ignorant to use such a phrase my mind goes to all the other mistakes he might be making. Of course it matters.

I doubt it was a slip of the tongue - when I have heard it used before it has always sounded like deep routed misunderstanding. If it had been a slip of the tongue due multi-tasking surely he would have corrected himself.

Students take everything from us FIs as gospel truth so it has to be correct. The mumbe of people who think this is not important is disappointing.

[VFE]

Okay, so I may have been rather flippant in my response to this thread - long day, tired, yadda yadda...

Just ask the instructor involved why he uses that term. Act ignorant. See what he says and then tell him what term you use and why. It will avoid any confrontation and should leave you looking like a decent chap and not anally retentive.

There. Not so difficult is it? Seriously, some of the problems so-called professionals have trouble dealing with here really worry me. Is it that hard to voice your concerns without damaging an ego or risking WWIII erupting? I think not.

VFE.