90 day rule

[Hamish 123]

If you've gone outwith the CAA's 90 day rule for flying with a passenger, does this include going up with another PPL who is within the 90 day limit, and current on type rating? Or, if you nominate yourself as PIC, you can only fly on your own?

[englishal]

On your own...but realistically it would be sensible to go up with some other pilot who is current in my view (and practically this is what normally happens).

[robin]

I guess it would depend on whether or not you intend to use a club aircraft or one you own/have a share in.

If it is a club aircraft, then club rules apply.

[IO540]

To renew the 90-day night passenger carriage recency you need to either go up alone, or with an instructor (who either needs to be passenger night current, or holds a current JAA IR).

You have to do 3 takeoffs and 3 landings (not touch and goes; one has to taxi round although if you had a huge runway to play with you could do a full stop and an immediate takeoff; this is potentially hazardous) between sunset+30mins and sunrise-30mins.

The above is for G-reg / UK licenses. FAA rules are different and more sensible; you can take along a pilot who is night current himself, but the 3+3 have to be done between sunset+60mins and sunrise-60mins, IIRC.

Club rules can be whatever they are. If the owner of the plane requires you to wear pink underpants then you have to do that :)

[Mark1234]

Quick Q, where is it defined / what is the definition which separates a touch and go from a take off and landing?

... and 90 day currency for pax also applies during the day.

[robin]

Club rules can be whatever they are. If the owner of the plane requires you to wear pink underpants then you have to do that

Hmm. Any idea where that place is????

[mad_jock]

Usually anywhere south of Leeds with the pink pants is a possibility

Also there is an alarming selection of man bags being used as flight bags.

And even some Yak drivers with pink flights suits.

O aye and yes you can just jump in by yourself and do 3 circuits.

Why bother though for 15 quid cash in hand you should be able to find a instructor who is willing to look out the window for 3 circuits. And if your in your 2nd year for your SEP rating just do an hour and get that signed off as well.

[tinpilot]

If you've gone outwith the CAA's 90 day rule for flying with a passenger, does this include going up with another PPL who is within the 90 day limit, and current on type rating?No

Or, if you nominate yourself as PIC, you can only fly on your own?Yes


Page 254 of the current LASORS, in section F:
A pilot who has not met the experience criteria above will be required to complete the above requirements either as Pilot-in-Command of aeroplanes/helicopters as appropriate or with a flight instructor, providing that the instructor does not influence the controls at any time. The carriage of a safety pilot is not permitted to satisfy this requirement.

[kenparry]

IO540:
You have to do 3 takeoffs and 3 landings (not touch and goes; one has to taxi round although if you had a huge runway to play with you could do a full stop and an immediate takeoff; this is potentially hazardous) between sunset+30mins and sunrise-30mins.
Do you have a reference for that? On heavier metal, the CAA had no problems some years ago with our doing T & G for the 3 T/O and landings on type prior to flying line sectors.

[BackPacker]

LASORS E4.2c. They have to be full stop landings. But this is something that's specific for the NQ; for the 90-day rule as applicable in daytime T&Gs are OK.

As IO540 said, if the runway is sufficiently long, you can do Stop&Gos. Otherwise it's full stop taxibacks.

[homeguard]

3x take-off and 3x landings as sole manipulator of the controls (no physical input from an instructor - these requirements may be done dual - within the previous 90 days to carry passengers.

If it is required to fly at night and carry a passenger at least 1x take-off and 1x landing of the 3 must have been done during 'night hours dual or solo.

They can be touch & goes or stop-goes.

The Instructor is not required to meet the 'with passengers' requirements when instructing as both pilots are acting as crew. If a passenger is carried during any check or training that confuses issues somewhat but that will not be new and no one should expect utopia from legislation.

Having an IR has nothing to do with it.

[IO540]

Having an IR has nothing to do with it

A JAA IR exempts the pilot or instructor from having to be night passenger current.

[Mike Cross]

Since when has LASORS been the law?:E

Schedule 8 of the ANO, Priveliges of PPL(A)
(2) He shall not:..........
(g) fly as pilot in command of such an aeroplane carrying passengers unless within the preceding 90 days he has made at least three take-offs and three landings as the sole manipulator of the controls of an aeroplane of the same type or class and if such a flight is to be carried out at night and his licence does not include an instrument rating (aeroplane) at least one of those take-offs and landings shall have been at night.

The quote from LASORS
A pilot who has not met the experience criteria above will be required to complete the above requirements either as Pilot-in-Command of aeroplanes/helicopters as appropriate or with a flight instructor, providing that the instructor does not influence the controls at any time. The carriage of a safety pilot is not permitted to satisfy this requirement.
Appears to be bollix, the ANO does not require you to be either PIC or with an instructor, the only requirement is that you are the sole manipulator of the controls.

I do wish the editor of LASORS would stick to the legal requirements and not make up his own rules. They are confusing enough already without his additional input.

[Jumbo Driver]

To say recency landings need to be full stop landings is not substantive in my opinion. No reference has been offered for this assertion and I totally agree with kenparry when he says that the CAA have no problem with 90-day recency using touch-and-gos in "heavy metal". Of course you are allowed to do touch-and-gos for recency - and everybody does.

The quote from LASORS offered above by BackPacker refers to the experience required for the initial issue of a Night Qualification, and is quite irrelevant to this question. LASORS incidentally is NOT in itself authoritative in this, or any other regard and should only ever be used as a compendium through which to refer to the appropriate authoritative document.

I would suggest that, for 90-day recency, the UK ANO, Schedule 8 is the authoritative document and in defining the recency requirements for various licences it merely requires three take-offs and three landings. There is no requirement for each landing to be a full-stop.


JD
:)

[Mark1234]

Doesn't it make it fun trying to keep everything above board when it's not even clear what 'above board' is :ugh:

In reference to Mike Cross's post, I don't think they're at odds in this case, the two extracts describe different situations:

the ANO says in order to carry passengers, one must have (...) the 3 takeoffs and landings. Now, those could quite validly be made, whilst carrying pax - assuming you're already in currency. You may be the sole manipulator, either with, or without being PIC.

Meanwhile LASORS says "If you have lapsed ", one must be PIC, or with an instructor. That's also correct, if implicit.. As one is not current to fly with pax, one must get those 3 in either solo (in which case I'd hope you're PIC!), or flying with someone else.. well, no pax allowed, so it's going to be an instructor? Which usually means you're not PIC.

I guess that doesn't account for multi crew a/c tho..

Clear... as mud!

I'd love to have an authoritative answer on the touch 'n go thing though..

[IO540]

Well, yes, obviously the bit about having to do the night stuff on your own applies only if your recency has lapsed.

[dublinpilot]

Meanwhile LASORS says "If you have lapsed ", one must be PIC, or with an instructor. That's also correct, if implicit.. As one is not current to fly with pax, one must get those 3 in either solo (in which case I'd hope you're PIC!), or flying with someone else.. well, no pax allowed, so it's going to be an instructor? Which usually means you're not PIC.


I think Mike's point is that YOU could be the passenger.

Another pilot (who isn't an instructor) but who is current to carry passengers could be PIC. (S)he then allows you to act as the sole manipulator of the controls for three landings, and then you're current again.

Whether you can find another non instructor pilot, willing to do that for you in another question.

dp

[flybymike]

So are we then saying that although the CAA promulgate by various means that a 90 day current safety pilot who is not an instructor may not accompany the pilot concerned, that by the simple expedient of nominating he who would be the passenger as the pilot in command, and the non current pilot as the "manipulating" passenger, the exercise becomes legal?

If so, by what means would the pilot seeking to become current record such flight(s) in his log book?

This forum is a triumph of legal interpretation.

[Mike Cross]

It gets better:E

Who says he needs to record it in his log book?
Go read Art 35
Personal flying log book
35 (1) Every member of the flight crew of an aircraft registered in the United Kingdom and every person who engages in flying for the purpose of qualifying for the grant or renewal of a licence under this Order shall keep a personal flying log book in which the following particulars shall be recorded:
(a) the name and address of the holder of the log book;
(b) particulars of the holder’s licence (if any) to act as a member of the flight crew of an aircraft; and
(c) the name and address of his employer (if any).
(2) Particulars of each flight during which the holder of the log book acted either as a member of the flight crew of an aircraft or for the purpose of qualifying for the grant or renewal of a licence under this Order, as the case may be, shall be recorded in the log book at the end of each flight or as soon thereafter as is reasonably practicable,
including:
(a) the date, the places at which the holder embarked on and disembarked from the aircraft and the time spent during the course of a flight when he was acting in either capacity;
(b) the type and registration marks of the aircraft;
(c) the capacity in which the holder acted in flight;
(d) particulars of any special conditions under which the flight was conducted, including night flying and instrument flying; and
(e) particulars of any test or examination undertaken whilst in flight.
(3) For the purposes of this article, a helicopter shall be deemed to be in flight from the moment the helicopter first moves under its own power for the purpose of taking off until the rotors are next stopped.
(4) Particulars of any test or examination undertaken whilst in a flight simulator shall be recorded in the log book, including:
(a) the date of the test or examination;
(b) the type of simulator;
(c) the capacity in which the holder acted; and
(d) the nature of the test or examination.

This forum is a triumph of legal interpretation.

Not me guv, all I'm doing is showing you what the law is. It's the editor of LASORS who's doing the interpreting.

[Jumbo Driver]

Meanwhile LASORS says " ... ...

LASORS is not authoritative - it is not the law.


I'd love to have an authoritative answer on the touch 'n go thing though..

How much more authoritative a source do you want than Schedule 8 of the UK Air Navigation Order? That is where the recency requirement is stated. Full-stop landings are not specified, therefore it is perfectly reasonable to conclude they are not required.

Sometimes I despair ...


JD
:)

[Whopity]

Another pilot (who isn't an instructor) but who is current to carry passengers could be PIC. (S)he then allows you to act as the sole manipulator of the controls for three landings, and then you're current again.NO; because you cannot fly DUAL with a person who is not an Instructor. This would result in him being a passenger whilst you conduct the landings and take offs. You can be either PIC (solo) or Dual with an Instructor who is legally crew Art 155. Anyone else on board not acting as crew can only be a passenger.
‘Passenger’ means a person other than a member of the crew;
'Crew' means a member of the flight crew, a person carried on the flight deck who isappointed by the operator of the aircraft to give or to supervise the training, experience, practice and periodical tests required in respect of the flight crew under article 42(3) or a member of the cabin crew;

The requirement for Stop Go landings is for the 5 take-offs and landings required to qualify for the issue of a night qualification. The CAA deemed many years ago that a full take-off and landing to and from a standstill were required. There is no requirement for stop and gos for currency.

Stick to the ANO LASORS is out of date and inaccurate.

[Mark1234]

@dublinpilot: Aha.. I see, I wasn't thinking out of the box enough :) Still seems a little dodgy, and I suspect that most FOB's will have something about left seat flying. f you're not hiring, and haven't managed 3 flights in 3 months you're wasting having the plane!

@flybymike: Point is, LASORS is not a legal document governing our flying, the ANO is. LASORS is it's self interpretation, supposedly for the purpose of making life simple for mere mortals like us. Sometimes it falls short.

LASORS brought up the safety pilot.. What is a safety pilot anyway? Is it some form of rating, or your mate from the flying club who holds a PPL? Something official, or simply a bit of nomenclature? It *seems to me* that you're either PIC (with/without pax, however qualified they are), Pilot under instruction (i.e. there's an instructor sat next to you), or pax.

@Jumbo Driver: Go easy, there's no need to despair! Yes, I know LASORS is not the law. Just pointing out I thought it wasn't at ODDs with the 'law'. dublinpilot's already pointed out I missed the point..

As for touch and go - Agree. Not stated it must be full stop; always been my practice to consider touch and go as meeting the requirements. However, every now and then you come across someone who says a touch and go doesn't count. Well, what defines a takeoff and a landing? I'd just like to be able to point to something that says touch and go = 1 landing and 1 takeoff. If it's not there, so be it, just that if it is, it'd be nice to know :)

[IO540]

Interesting... the myth about the CAA NQ passenger currency seems to be spread by practically every instructor I have ever met.

The FAA situation (which is what I fly under) is better defined

A similar 90-day period applies to taking passengers up at night (which is defined as an hour after sunset to an hour before sunrise). In order to take passengers up during those hours, you must have made three takeoffs and landings to a full stop during those hours in the preceding 90 days [61.57 (b) (1)].

as described here (http://www.flyingmag.com/piloting/277/are-you-flying-legally.html?print_page=y).

[Mike Cross]

Quote:
Another pilot (who isn't an instructor) but who is current to carry passengers could be PIC. (S)he then allows you to act as the sole manipulator of the controls for three landings, and then you're current again.

NO; because you cannot fly DUAL with a person who is not an Instructor. This would result in him being a passenger whilst you conduct the landings and take offs. You can be either PIC (solo) or Dual with an Instructor who is legally crew Art 155. Anyone else on board not acting as crew can only be a passenger.

Not sure I agree with that Whopity.
Art 150
‘Pilot in command’ in relation to an aircraft means a person who for the time being is in charge of the piloting of the aircraft without being under the direction of any other pilot in the aircraft;

If I let anyone (whether they are the holder of a license or not) handle the controls while I am PIC it does not make them PIC, I remain PIC because they are acting under my direction. If the person who drafted the Article wanted it to be three take-offs and landings as Pilot in Command he sould have said so. He did not, he said as sole manipulator of the controls, which is not at all the same thing.

If the person handling the controls is not PIC, the aircraft is certified for single pilot operation and the PIC doesn't hold an FI rating then the person with his mitts on the controls is legally a passenger.

In the end common sense within the law should prevail.

I'll freely admit to teasing here, this little scenario shows up the difficulty of drafting legislation that achieves the result you seek. I suspect the intention was that the out of currency pilot would need to fly the landings solo or with an instructor and that the "sole manipulator" bit was put there to prevent the instructor from following through and assisting.

If I was in enforcement branch and something daft had happened I would try to avoid prosecuting on this particular bit of the ANO and instead go for the PIC in the RHS, there would be plenty to hang him with that would have a better chance of securing a conviction.;)

[flybymike]

So just to continue the teasing, we know that it is in order for a passenger to take the controls under the direction of the PIC, so where in the legislation does it say that the passenger, in so doing, may not actually land the aircraft? If there is no such legislation what hanging offence charge could be brought against the PIC?

[Mike Cross]

Well if the thing ends up in a mangled heap then a charge under Arts 73 or 74 would probably be appropriate.
Endangering safety of an aircraft
73 A person shall not recklessly or negligently act in a manner likely to endanger an aircraft, or any person therein.
Endangering safety of any person or property
74 A person shall not recklessly or negligently cause or permit an aircraft to endanger any person or property. :E

[Jumbo Driver]

So, is a "mangled heap" defined anywhere ... ?

In LASORS, perhaps ... :E


JD
;)

[flybymike]

But if the passenger holds a pilot's licence ( which he does in this context) how could the PIC be seen to be recklessly endangering ?

[homeguard]

Who can explain the following, that is d(ii)?

(d) He shall not fly as pilot in command of such an aeroplane at night unless:
(i) his licence includes a night rating (aeroplanes); and
(ii) his licence includes an instrument rating (aeroplanes) or he has within the immediately preceding 13 months carried out as pilot in command not less than 5 take-offs and 5 landings at a time when the depression of the centre of the sun was not less than 12° below the horizon.

[BackPacker]

homeguard, is this FAA rules by any chance?

They use that depression below the horizon thing to make the rules applicable to Alaska as well, which is so high up near the arctic circle that the normal rules of SS+30/60 to SR-30/60 are not workable.

[homeguard]

IO540 makes a valid point. A holder of the IR may exercise that privilege at night although maybe not current at night as others have to be.

Please accept my apologise for the previous half completed post which was not intended. Below is my completed posting.

Who can explain the following, that is d(ii) from the UK ANO 1995?

(d) He shall not fly as pilot in command of such an aeroplane at night unless:
(i) his licence includes a night rating (aeroplanes); and
(ii) his licence includes an instrument rating (aeroplanes) or he has within the immediately preceding 13 months carried out as pilot in command not less than 5 take-offs and 5 landings at a time when the depression of the centre of the sun was not less than 12° below the horizon.

Which was later amended to the following ANO 2005

Private Pilot's Licence (Aeroplanes)

Minimum age—17 years

No maximum period of validity

Privileges:

(1) Subject to paragraph (2), the holder of a Private Pilot's Licence (Aeroplanes) shall be entitled to fly as pilot in command or co-pilot of an aeroplane of any of the types or classes specified or otherwise falling within an aircraft rating included in the licence.

(2) He shall not—

(d) fly as pilot in command of such an aeroplane at night unless his licence includes a night rating (aeroplanes) or a night qualification (aeroplane);

(g) fly as pilot in command of such an aeroplane carrying passengers unless within the preceding 90 days he has made at least three take-offs and three landings as the sole manipulator of the controls of an aeroplane of the same type or class and if such a flight is to be carried out at night and his licence does not include an instrument rating (aeroplane) at least one of those take-offs and landings shall have been at night.

What skills provided in the IR training and testing give the skills to make a landing at night?

While it is not hard to see that at an international airport with state of the art lighting guidance it will be no less odeous to landing in weather minima, it should be noted that landing at a small licenced airfied with the minima edge and Wing Bar lights perhaps aided by APAPI is not the same at all.

[flybymike]

it will be no less odeous to landing

For odeous read onerous?

[S-Works]

with the minima edge and Wing Bar lights perhaps aided by APAPI is not the same at all.

Wow, what luxuries, I only have 16 garden lights!!!

[IO540]

Out of interest, is anybody able to unravel the ANO to work out whether the holder of a UK JAA PPL, a valid and current FAA IR, still needs the night passenger carriage currency, in a G-reg?

I think not; only a JAA IR will do for this purpose. But could be wrong.

The ANO often refers to an "Instrument Rating" but elsewhere defines this as being a JAA one. Most confusing...

And if I am wrong, the pilot flying on his UK PPL needs only 1+1 at night (which is sunset+30mins), whereas the same pilot flying on his FAA PPL needs 3+3 at night (which is sunset+60mins). The foregoing is true for both G-reg and N-reg; the former can be flown worldwide on any ICAO PPL (ANO Art 26) and the latter can be flown on a UK PPL within UK airspace (FAR 61.3). So, given that I have both licenses, I can pick and choose.

The catch, one of those never-woken aviation law sleeping dogs, is that in the UK night=IFR and the FARs require an IR for any IFR flight so one probably cannot fly at night at all in the UK on an FAA license unless one holds an IR and since this IR has to be on the certificate on which one is flying at the time it has to be an FAA one (a JAA one won't do). Don't ya just love this stuff :)

[Mike Cross]

Homeguard

The current edition of the ANO can be downloaded here. (http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/33/CAP393.pdf)

License privileges are in Schedule 8, Note that there are separate versions for UK and JAA Licenses.

The license privileges now refer to "night", which is defined in Art 155
‘Night’ means the time from half an hour after sunset until half an hour before sunrise
(both times inclusive), sunset and sunrise being determined at surface level;

The old definition which involved measuring the depression of something you cannot see is the one I remember from my Air Law in 1974.

What skills provided in the IR training and testing give the skills to make a landing at night?

Not sure what you mean by this, the Privileges require him to have a Night Rating or Night Qualification to be PIC at night. To carry passengers at night he needs to have done at least 3 take-offs and landings in the past 90 days, one of which must have been at night. If he has an IR the requirement for one of them to be at night is lifted.

It seems a relatively small additional privilige in exchange for the additional knowledge and experience that the grant of an IR involves over the basic newly minted PPL with a night rating.
[(a)] An applicant for an IR(A) shall hold a
PPL(A) including a night qualification or CPL(A)
and shall have completed at least 50 hours
cross-country flight time as pilot-in-command in
aeroplanes or helicopters of which at least 10
hours shall be in aeroplanes.

And that's BEFORE he's done the course.

[englishal]

...just take your mate up and don't tell anyone, before we all die of boredom........:zzz:;)

[Jumbo Driver]

Homeguard

The current edition of the ANO can be downloaded here. (http://http://www.caa.co.uk/application.aspx?catid=33&pagetype=65&appid=11&mode=detail&id=226)

Mike's link didn't work for me, so here's an alternative - ANO is in Section 1 of CAP 393, which is here (http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/33/CAP393.pdf) ...


JD
:)

[Crash one]

Isn't this all getting a bit complicated? The original question didn't mention night flying or ratings, just the 90day rule.
Get in, start up, you are allowed to fly solo? Fly, 3 touch & go's. Land, fill in log book. Job done, where's the problem?:ugh::ugh::ugh:

[Lister Noble]

Problem is too many prunes.:}
A fuit without much substance but makes one come out with a lot of hot,vapid air.:yuk:

[Mike Cross]

True, link fixed ;)

[Donny Matt]

The more i read this thread the more confused i get !
Am i correct in thinking the following ? :-
As and when i (hopefully) pass my ppl, i wish to take up passengers, so initially in order to do this i go up and to 3 solo circuit take of and landings, fill in the logbook and jobs a good un. After this i take up my first passenger(s), then subsequently i take up a passenger(s) once every 30 days - if i keep this up then i should in theory allways remain current ?
Does this make sense ?
Cheers

[The Heff]

If the person handling the controls is not PIC, the aircraft is certified for single pilot operation and the PIC doesn't hold an FI rating then the person with his mitts on the controls is legally a passenger.

Here's where I begin to get confused.

If the aircraft has dual controls, then therefore isn't is certified for multi-pilot operation? If it isn't certified for multi-pilot operation, then why has it got dual controls?

At first, I thought this might be for instructor only; but it has already been pointed out that the instructor is legally considered crew. So in order for an instructor to give instruction on the aircraft, wouldn't the aircraft have to be certified for multi-pilot operation?

:confused:

The end question I'm driving towards is thus, if both pilots are PPL qualified and are handling the controls, wouldn't one be PIC and one be P2?

[Mariner9]

Not surprised you're confused Donny, this is a fairly typical Pprune thread complicating a simple issue.

The rules simply mean you have to have completed 3 take offs and landings in the last 90 days if you want to take passengers. It doesn't matter whether the take offs/landings were solo, with pax, with an instructor or with your pet dog (or sheep as someone once admitted to carrying:D); all that is required is that you operated the controls.

Therefore, in your scenario where you fly once per month*, provided you operate the aircraft for the take off & landings in those monthly flights, you will indeed remain current to carry passengers regardless of whether passengers have been carried on any of those monthly flights.

*Provided that the preceding months flights do not exceed 90 days between them

[Flyingmac]

P2 in a 172? Log book entries should make interesting reading.

[flybymike]

Heff, Don't get "dual controls" confused with "certified for single pilot operation" , (which simply means that two crew are not required in order to legally fly the aircraft.)
P2 may not be logged for aircraft where only one pilot is required ( except for certain public transport or air taxi type operations etc where two crew may be required for safety redundancy reasons)

[Mike Cross]

Chapter and verse here in JAR-FCL1 1.080(c)
(2) Co-pilot flight time
The holder of a pilot licence occupying a
pilot seat as co-pilot may log all flight time as
co-pilot flight time on an aeroplane on which
more than one pilot is required under the type
certification of the aeroplane, or the
regulations under which the flight is
conducted.

If the circumstances of the flight do not require two crew and you are not PIC then you are not a member of the crew.

Art 35 of the ANO requires you to log time where you are not PIC if you are receiving instruction.

(2) Particulars of each flight during which the holder of the log book acted either as a member of the flight crew of an aircraft or for the purpose of qualifying for the grant or renewal of a licence under this Order, as the case may be, shall be recorded in the log book at the end of each flight or as soon thereafter as is reasonably practicable, including:.........

Hope this makes sense of it

Mike

[Jumbo Driver]

:hmm: ... worms ... ... can ... ... ... opened ???


JD
:bored:

[Hamish 123]

JD, yes - slightly regretting starting the thread now!

I think I'll just do as I originally planned to do ie as I've not flown since October, go up for an hour with an instructor in January, thereby getting back within my group's currency rules, then follow that up with a solo trip to somewhere nearby for a quick cup of coffee.

Then try and avoid ever asking a question on PPrune again which doesn't have an authoritative one word answer . . . .

[Donny Matt]

Thanks Mariner9 i'm clear on this now :ok:
Think i'll pass on the sheep though !:)