Flying over the Grand Canyon?

[nickyboy007]

Flying over the Grand Canyon?

I have a PPL (JAA) with about 60hrs post Skills Test on a PA-28. I am planning a trip to Las Vegas in January, and would like to fly over the Grand Canyon. Would it be possible to get checked out ? and fly myself and friends over the Canyon, or should I go with an instructor?

Many thanks for your advice.

[crispey]

Flying the Grand Canyon (http://www.swaviator.com/html/issueJJ99/canyon.html)

This may, or may not,be up to date.It's a tricky place to fly in.Plenty of homework required.Good luck with it.

[BackPacker]

You also need an FAA license validation, as you can't just fly an N-reg aircraft on a JAA license.

Info here: Airmen Certification: Verify the Authenticity of a Foreign License, Rating, or Medical Certification (http://www.faa.gov/licenses_certificates/airmen_certification/foreign_license_verification/)

If all you want is to fly over the GC, it's probably best if you simply hire an aircraft and an instructor.

There's a recent thread on here about this very subject (flying the GC from Vegas on a JAA PPL) - search the archives.

[Katamarino]

As mentioned, you'd need the FAA validation, and then the rental checkout. I suspect the checkout would be very thorough, and not worth it for a single flight - they'd want to know you were competent flying at high density altitudes (Grand Canyon is HIGH!), and also in a very busy traffic environment, with airspace that is not totally simple.

When I flew over the Grand Canyon, I got around these checkout issues by hiring the plane in Florida and going the long way :p

[Cusco]

GCA is controlled airspace with a small number of GA corridors where you can cross.

It is a fair distance from Las Vegas and can get seriously bumpy by midday so go early if your pax have not flown a lot.

There are plenty of threads on here about getting a FAA 'bolt-on' licence.

I've flown it a couple of times and have always either flown with a PPL mate, sharing the flying or years ago pre 911 when I was low hours with an instructor.

It is a challenging flight particularly as the skies will be heaving with tourist commercial traffic from Las Vegas or Henderson and the airwaves will be full of non-standard R/T.

Don't underestimate it, but if you feel you will be up to it and you prepare well (for example there are not many places to go if the fan stops: the altitude/heat will make your W & B calcs interesting) , then you will remember it for a long time.

For just one flight you might as well hire an a/c with instructor: a checkride would be pretty comprehensive and would prob. take a couple of hours anyway.

You will need a C172 0r an Archer at the very least.

If you have the time Page Az. and Marble Canyon are 'just up the road'

Cusco

[nickyboy007]

Thanks Guys for all the great information. The best option is defiantly fly to with an instructor for safety. But I will plan as if i was going alone. I will give some flying schools a call. If anyone knows of a good one in Las Vegas would be great.

Nick

[david viewing]

Las Vegas is a marvellous place for a low-hour pilot to build experience. True, the airspace is busy, but your checkout will take care of that. Generally flying there is far easier than the chaotic UK. Assuming you rent at VGT (North Las Vegas) or Henderson, your checkout will probably take you out over Lake Mead and will certainly involve the proceedures for leaving and re-joining the Las Vegas class B airspace. (Actually you don't have to enter the B at either place, but it's an essential plan to get checked out in it).

I should budget for a little extra time with your instructor so that the experience can be more relaxed - as it is, you will be combining a BFR (needed for your reciprocal licence) with the checkout - say 2 trips, one of which could be a cross country (see if they'll let you go to Temple Bar, a dirt strip out by a Marina on the Lake), and 2 Hrs of ground. I'm sure whoever you rent from will have their own policies regarding experience, etc., so don't be afraid to ask them.

I started flying there on a reciprocal licence many years ago with similar experience to yours. For a long time I limited my expeditions to about 150m from VGT, which takes you across the Lake (which you will know from your checkout) and about 1/2 way down the canyon toward GCN. I did that a few times, besides other places like Death Valley and Lake Havasu, before venturing all the way to GCN itself, which really requires an overnight if you're going to visit the village.

All my early flying was solo, and in a 152, and you can certainly get to the 11,500' needed to cross the Canyon through the corridors solo in a 152 in January. Speaking of January, it can be a superb time to fly. This year for instance a permanent high pressure gave continual clear skies and light winds throughout the SW. But in other Januarys I've seen howling gales, ferocious sandstorms, driving rain and mountains of snow - all of that in Las Vegas! So there's an element of luck involved at this time of year. (But in 20+ yrs, I've never been there in the winter and not been able to fly).

So starting a US flying career in Las Vegas is a really good plan. Be cautious about how much you plan to do initially and especially about how many, if any, passengers you take. There are dozens of places within easy reach in 3Hrs fying (many FBO's require 3 Hrs per day) and if you do go to GCN, plan a couple of days over it and don't be intimidated by stories of hectic tour traffic which while obviously well meant, don't really apply to the winter. Happy times!

[fisbangwollop]

Did it a few years back....took off from Scottsdale and flew via Sedonna and Flagstaff mountain, then flight over the Canyon...if I remember rightly we had to remain a minimum of 2000ft above the Canyon rim...eventually landed at Grand canyon airport....a small strip but the busiest airfield in Arizona!!! a great trip and one of life's special experiances!!:cool::cool::cool:

[julian_storey]

Do it! It'll be a great experience! :-)

http://www.jsflying.co.uk/Canyonapproach.jpg

[flyingman-of-kent]

I did some flying in Vegas about 10 hours after getting my PPL, looking back I thought I was better qualified than I actually was! With only 70 hours in my opinion I didn't have enough experience to take on board the "surprise" requests of ATC such as being told to report at a VOR, in a plane with very unfamiliar instruments (see below).

I took a cab to the FAA regional office to get the temporary airmans certificate, which in those days they just typed up in front of you. The office in in the middle of nowhere so the cab waited. It was not too tragic fare wise, but it could easily be cheaper to hire a car for all this.

Next day I got a cab from the strip (it is a surprisingly long way) to North Las Vegas which is a very busy airport with many movements. I went and visited in person all the schools and hirers, and then made a choice. I was offered a rather nice Arrow at one place, but had no complex ratings so thought this was a bit inappropriate! In the end I chose a school - Aerleon (too long ago to say if they are good now) with some 172's and explained my experience and wishes (to do ground school for US air law, nav and map reading etc and to fly solo over the GC!)

I did a few hours with an instructor on the ground trying to get all the differences in my head, then we went of for a BFR. They used a training area to the east (the whole of Vegas is split between McCarron, Nellis AFB and there is a small slice left for training!), where we did the usual stalls and turns then headed back for circuits. Amazing how being out of your comfort zone makes you crap at landing! The next day we did some nav over to Lake Mead and the Hoover Damm, also going in and out of the Class Bravo airspace. Then some circuits and I was declared ready for the solo the next day.

On arrival, the first surprise - different plane with steam instrument not the modern stuff I was used to! Oh well. Then taxi'd and really found out how busy the place was. Eventually got airborne and was handed a different routing towards Lake Mead, so surprise number 2. Busked it somehow, being told to go right over McCarron International was quite nervy! Anyway, made it to the lake, flew around then went down the GC a bit, but didn't go too far as it was very busy so popped back to the lake and then headed back to North Las Vegas. Again, completely different routing was given, all the VRPs that the instructor had shown me were then irrelevant. Somehow found my way back into the circuit and got downwind, then base. On finals I found myself presented with a V of 2 very similar runway bearings and somehow had to choose which was the correct runway!!! All this with ATC firing off very rapid US radio it was pretty stressful and showed how I wasn't ready for this really. Maybe after I had added 100 hours I would have been much more competent and could try again.

All in all it was great, I have probably made it sound worse here than it actually was, of course there was some great flying a well as the "What does he mean?" moments!! I did bout 5 hours flying over 3 days, which was all the time I had spare.

Looking back I suppose it was amusing that talking to McCarran I had such dodgy radios that I just couldnt hear him, so I had to twice ask him to say again one part. He then slowed to such a slow speech that it sounded like he was at half speed!

[englishal]

A nice simple trip for someone new to the area is to follow the Colorado River down to the mexican border. That way you avoid a lot of the high ground, have plenty of interesting places to stop (laughlin, lake havasu, blythe, calexico for example), don't have too much airspace to worry about and have a few options if your engine fails (like ending up in the drink, which is better than the desert :} )

[IO540]

IMHO, Bryce Canyon is much more spectacular than the GC. I visited both 2x on the ground, many years ago. And it has an airport.

In fact I was going to fly up to BC on the final spare day after I finished the IR at Phoenix but sadly in the end didn't bother as I was sick of flying solidly for the previous 2 weeks :) And the plane available (PA28-161) could not have made it there and back without fuel stops, which complicates a one-day trip.

[Cusco]

I should have added that there are numerous standard VFR joining procedures into North Las Vegas, all with their own VRPs (Showboat, Bank of America building) so be sure you are aware of all these VRPs when they spring a non-standard rejoin on you or ATC can get a bit terse with you.............

Cusco:rolleyes:

[GS-Alpha]

Are you allowed to carry passengers as a JAA licence holder flying with an instructor in the states? Or is it necessary to get converted to FAA before carrying passengers, instructor present or not?

Cheers.

[IO540]

If you want to log the flight as anything whatsoever, you will need an FAA license, which can be a standalone one or a 61.75 (piggyback) one.

Or, if you have none of the above, you will need the US Student Pilot Certificate (which needs the FAA Class 3 medical as a minimum).

[julian_storey]

Or, if you have none of the above, you will need the US Student Pilot Certificate (which needs the FAA Class 3 medical as a minimum).

Is that right?

I THOUGHT that was only required if you wanted to fly solo - but I may very well be wrong :O

[crispey]

Good points above about the R/T over there.It is in English but.....You can get used to it by listening to Live ATC on the internet.Las Vegas is one of the airports covered

I was once priviledged to be invited to the sharp end of a UK registered B747 for the approach to LAX.A very friendly Captain asked me to help out with interpretation of the radio traffic.I don't think he was entirely serious but he did idicate that it can be difficult to follow at busy times.

[IO540]

I THOUGHT that was only required if you wanted to fly solo

You are probably right..... one doesn't need a medical here either, to receive flight instruction.

[david viewing]

I chose a school - Aerleon (too long ago to say if they are good now)

Aahh Aerleon - there's a name I've not heard in a year or two. Sadly they went bust in about 2000. They were marvellous to me, letting me fly whenever and wherever I wanted at a time when my experience didn't really warrant it, and into unimproved places where a different FBO with nice shiny airplanes would want the price of a respray afterwards. The first time I went to Death Valley, the CFI said sternly "Don't go sightseeing". I didn't really understand what she meant, how you could become transfixed by the wonder of the place and not notice the passage of time.

The planes were very rough, but never let me down. The display in one radio failed during the Bravo and the instructor amazed me by just dialling the frequencies blind and continuing as if nothing had happened! Another time the CFI said "there's some Brits here who'd like a ride" and I ended up with no less than the PFA's Peter Underhill and an equally portly friend in my little 172 pointing out all my many mistakes as we wandered down to Lake Havasu and back!

After a while they just threw me the keys when I arrived, which was a bit of a mixed blessing since I was (and still am) sometimes quite rusty, but it kept me going back, and that's what mattered. RIP Aerleon.

[CraigJL]

This thread has kicked up some interesting points, so I'd like to throw my situation into the mix.

I'm currently doing my PPL, and have about 20 hours logged. I've not gone solo yet, as I'm not 16 until March. August next year, we are going on holiday to Vegas & Miami. An idea was we, instead of doing a company tour of the GC, we could hire an aircraft with an instructor and let me fly up. I know that it's not possible to do this without an instructor, but is it actually possible at all? I know I did this in Barbados, after about 5 hours (!), but I'm unsure of the US regulations.

If I do solo in March/May, I will have a medical, and a lot more hours too. Will this make me eligible to take my parents, and an instructor, sightseeing over the GC?

[BackPacker]

CraigJL, the situation is very simple. Until you have your PPL you will not be able to act as PIC of any aircraft with other people on board. So all of your flights where it is you plus somebody else on board are going to be flown with the instructor as PIC. And he's allowed to bring whatever passenger he wants (W&B permitting). But whether you've got a medical or gone solo earlier doesn't matter one bit.

The only time during your training where you are PIC (and thus need a medical, for instance) is when you're flying solo.

The only exception to this is your final flight test with the examiner. I forgot the details but it comes down to this: if successful you log the flight as PIC and the examiner is officially your first passenger, if not the examiner is PIC and you log it as something else.

So if you rent an airplane plus a CPL pilot you can go sightseeing. If the CPL happens to be an instructor, you can log the hours as "dual". If you make sure that at the end of the flight the instructor lists the exercises you've done during the flight and signs it, they even become part of your training record.

Having said that, if you still need to get your JAA class 2 medical it might be worth investigating if the ME can also give you an FAA class 3 medical (doubles as your student pilot certificate) for a little extra - the medical exam is almost 100% the same. With that in hand, you could maybe convince the school you're going to to let you go solo there as well. Those hours count towards your 45 hours as well, and the plane rental in the US is considerably cheaper than Europe.

Although I don't think you should expect to get a solo endorsement that would allow you to fly the GC, solo.

[CraigJL]

Although I don't think you should expect to get a solo endorsement that would allow you to fly the GC, solo.I didn't expect to, I always knew it would have to be with an instructor - just checking if I could go AT ALL with an instructor, if you understand what I mean. Perhaps I didn't make clear, but I had no intention of acting as PIC, but from my experience in Barbados, the instructor was a safety net, and not much else.

Thanks for the clarification. :)

[BackPacker]

If his primary purpose is not flight training, but he's having a vacation with his parents and does one or two training flights that are really just scenic flights, I think you can argue that an M-1 visa is not required.

But as far as TSA clearance is required, well, that might indeed be a problem.

[n5296s]

But as far as TSA clearance is required, well, that might indeed be a problem.
If you already have a PPL in another country then this doesn't count as training towards a licence. Also discovery flights are explicitly excluded. So I think this would be safe. If you want to be 100% sure, call the TSA (at a location different from where you plan to go!). I had a similar question and called the local TSA guy, he was extremely helpful. Of course ymmv, so you might want to call the same guy I did - San Jose, CA. I'm afraid I lost the contact info but you can get it from the FSDO (which is on the web).

n5296s

[CraigJL]

....but he's having a vacation with his parents and does one or two training flights that are really just scenic flights

That is exactly the intention! Just thought I would clarify if there is any misunderstanding.

[Mickey Kaye]

How many hours in total are we talking for a flight over the Grand Canyon? Also do you get as good a view as you get with a dedicated tour operator such as papillon.

[IO540]

If anything were to later happen and it was found that the Instructor had given instruction (no matter how little) to a foreign national without all the paperwork completed - then the Instructor is liable and ultimately the FBO.

I would be very suprised if an informal flight, in US airspace, with an FAA CFI/CFII, where the only record in the whole universe of the flight exists in the "student's" logbook, where any FAA instructor is free to train on a freelance basis without having to do it through an FBO or any other institution (unlike the UK where ab initio PPL training has to be wholly via an FTO), would be a problem with either TSA or Visa. Even if they found out.

Huge numbers of instructional hours were and continue to be logged outside the USA, with the large numbers of FAA CFI/CFII instructors who live out there, who have no TSA approval, and nobody I know has ever reported any of this training as subsequently inadmissible towards any license or rating, US or any other, on the basis of the instructor not having been TSA approved.

I have met people over here who disagree with this and who collect US instructor names from peoples' logbooks for the purpose of reporting them to the TSA, but even this has never caused anybody any problems.

The real question is whether there is any point, in somebody who does not have a license of any sort, in logging a flight around the Grand Canyon, with an FAA instructor. The flight will mean exactly zilch towards any JAA license or rating. There are unusual cases like picking up a JAA PPL based on an ICAO PPL using the 100hr route, or validating an ICAO license into a European non-JAA one which lates becomes JAR-FCL (like e.g. Hungary used to do) but even these mean nothing unless this chap actually gets a whole US license first. Just the odd flight in the USA is worth zilch in Europe. It's just the warm feeling one gets, having a flight around the Grand Canyon in one's logbook, which I won't argue with (I try to log absolutely everything I can - just like everybody else :) ).