Flying over the Grand Canyon?
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Flying over the Grand Canyon?
Flying over the Grand Canyon?
I have a PPL (JAA) with about 60hrs post Skills Test on a PA-28. I am planning a trip to Las Vegas in January, and would like to fly over the Grand Canyon. Would it be possible to get checked out ? and fly myself and friends over the Canyon, or should I go with an instructor?
Many thanks for your advice.
I have a PPL (JAA) with about 60hrs post Skills Test on a PA-28. I am planning a trip to Las Vegas in January, and would like to fly over the Grand Canyon. Would it be possible to get checked out ? and fly myself and friends over the Canyon, or should I go with an instructor?
Many thanks for your advice.
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Flying the Grand Canyon
This may, or may not,be up to date.It's a tricky place to fly in.Plenty of homework required.Good luck with it.
This may, or may not,be up to date.It's a tricky place to fly in.Plenty of homework required.Good luck with it.
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You also need an FAA license validation, as you can't just fly an N-reg aircraft on a JAA license.
Info here: Airmen Certification: Verify the Authenticity of a Foreign License, Rating, or Medical Certification
If all you want is to fly over the GC, it's probably best if you simply hire an aircraft and an instructor.
There's a recent thread on here about this very subject (flying the GC from Vegas on a JAA PPL) - search the archives.
Info here: Airmen Certification: Verify the Authenticity of a Foreign License, Rating, or Medical Certification
If all you want is to fly over the GC, it's probably best if you simply hire an aircraft and an instructor.
There's a recent thread on here about this very subject (flying the GC from Vegas on a JAA PPL) - search the archives.
As mentioned, you'd need the FAA validation, and then the rental checkout. I suspect the checkout would be very thorough, and not worth it for a single flight - they'd want to know you were competent flying at high density altitudes (Grand Canyon is HIGH!), and also in a very busy traffic environment, with airspace that is not totally simple.
When I flew over the Grand Canyon, I got around these checkout issues by hiring the plane in Florida and going the long way
When I flew over the Grand Canyon, I got around these checkout issues by hiring the plane in Florida and going the long way
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GCA is controlled airspace with a small number of GA corridors where you can cross.
It is a fair distance from Las Vegas and can get seriously bumpy by midday so go early if your pax have not flown a lot.
There are plenty of threads on here about getting a FAA 'bolt-on' licence.
I've flown it a couple of times and have always either flown with a PPL mate, sharing the flying or years ago pre 911 when I was low hours with an instructor.
It is a challenging flight particularly as the skies will be heaving with tourist commercial traffic from Las Vegas or Henderson and the airwaves will be full of non-standard R/T.
Don't underestimate it, but if you feel you will be up to it and you prepare well (for example there are not many places to go if the fan stops: the altitude/heat will make your W & B calcs interesting) , then you will remember it for a long time.
For just one flight you might as well hire an a/c with instructor: a checkride would be pretty comprehensive and would prob. take a couple of hours anyway.
You will need a C172 0r an Archer at the very least.
If you have the time Page Az. and Marble Canyon are 'just up the road'
Cusco
It is a fair distance from Las Vegas and can get seriously bumpy by midday so go early if your pax have not flown a lot.
There are plenty of threads on here about getting a FAA 'bolt-on' licence.
I've flown it a couple of times and have always either flown with a PPL mate, sharing the flying or years ago pre 911 when I was low hours with an instructor.
It is a challenging flight particularly as the skies will be heaving with tourist commercial traffic from Las Vegas or Henderson and the airwaves will be full of non-standard R/T.
Don't underestimate it, but if you feel you will be up to it and you prepare well (for example there are not many places to go if the fan stops: the altitude/heat will make your W & B calcs interesting) , then you will remember it for a long time.
For just one flight you might as well hire an a/c with instructor: a checkride would be pretty comprehensive and would prob. take a couple of hours anyway.
You will need a C172 0r an Archer at the very least.
If you have the time Page Az. and Marble Canyon are 'just up the road'
Cusco
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Thanks Guys for all the great information. The best option is defiantly fly to with an instructor for safety. But I will plan as if i was going alone. I will give some flying schools a call. If anyone knows of a good one in Las Vegas would be great.
Nick
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Las Vegas is a marvellous place for a low-hour pilot to build experience. True, the airspace is busy, but your checkout will take care of that. Generally flying there is far easier than the chaotic UK. Assuming you rent at VGT (North Las Vegas) or Henderson, your checkout will probably take you out over Lake Mead and will certainly involve the proceedures for leaving and re-joining the Las Vegas class B airspace. (Actually you don't have to enter the B at either place, but it's an essential plan to get checked out in it).
I should budget for a little extra time with your instructor so that the experience can be more relaxed - as it is, you will be combining a BFR (needed for your reciprocal licence) with the checkout - say 2 trips, one of which could be a cross country (see if they'll let you go to Temple Bar, a dirt strip out by a Marina on the Lake), and 2 Hrs of ground. I'm sure whoever you rent from will have their own policies regarding experience, etc., so don't be afraid to ask them.
I started flying there on a reciprocal licence many years ago with similar experience to yours. For a long time I limited my expeditions to about 150m from VGT, which takes you across the Lake (which you will know from your checkout) and about 1/2 way down the canyon toward GCN. I did that a few times, besides other places like Death Valley and Lake Havasu, before venturing all the way to GCN itself, which really requires an overnight if you're going to visit the village.
All my early flying was solo, and in a 152, and you can certainly get to the 11,500' needed to cross the Canyon through the corridors solo in a 152 in January. Speaking of January, it can be a superb time to fly. This year for instance a permanent high pressure gave continual clear skies and light winds throughout the SW. But in other Januarys I've seen howling gales, ferocious sandstorms, driving rain and mountains of snow - all of that in Las Vegas! So there's an element of luck involved at this time of year. (But in 20+ yrs, I've never been there in the winter and not been able to fly).
So starting a US flying career in Las Vegas is a really good plan. Be cautious about how much you plan to do initially and especially about how many, if any, passengers you take. There are dozens of places within easy reach in 3Hrs fying (many FBO's require 3 Hrs per day) and if you do go to GCN, plan a couple of days over it and don't be intimidated by stories of hectic tour traffic which while obviously well meant, don't really apply to the winter. Happy times!
I should budget for a little extra time with your instructor so that the experience can be more relaxed - as it is, you will be combining a BFR (needed for your reciprocal licence) with the checkout - say 2 trips, one of which could be a cross country (see if they'll let you go to Temple Bar, a dirt strip out by a Marina on the Lake), and 2 Hrs of ground. I'm sure whoever you rent from will have their own policies regarding experience, etc., so don't be afraid to ask them.
I started flying there on a reciprocal licence many years ago with similar experience to yours. For a long time I limited my expeditions to about 150m from VGT, which takes you across the Lake (which you will know from your checkout) and about 1/2 way down the canyon toward GCN. I did that a few times, besides other places like Death Valley and Lake Havasu, before venturing all the way to GCN itself, which really requires an overnight if you're going to visit the village.
All my early flying was solo, and in a 152, and you can certainly get to the 11,500' needed to cross the Canyon through the corridors solo in a 152 in January. Speaking of January, it can be a superb time to fly. This year for instance a permanent high pressure gave continual clear skies and light winds throughout the SW. But in other Januarys I've seen howling gales, ferocious sandstorms, driving rain and mountains of snow - all of that in Las Vegas! So there's an element of luck involved at this time of year. (But in 20+ yrs, I've never been there in the winter and not been able to fly).
So starting a US flying career in Las Vegas is a really good plan. Be cautious about how much you plan to do initially and especially about how many, if any, passengers you take. There are dozens of places within easy reach in 3Hrs fying (many FBO's require 3 Hrs per day) and if you do go to GCN, plan a couple of days over it and don't be intimidated by stories of hectic tour traffic which while obviously well meant, don't really apply to the winter. Happy times!
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Did it a few years back....took off from Scottsdale and flew via Sedonna and Flagstaff mountain, then flight over the Canyon...if I remember rightly we had to remain a minimum of 2000ft above the Canyon rim...eventually landed at Grand canyon airport....a small strip but the busiest airfield in Arizona!!! a great trip and one of life's special experiances!!
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I did some flying in Vegas about 10 hours after getting my PPL, looking back I thought I was better qualified than I actually was! With only 70 hours in my opinion I didn't have enough experience to take on board the "surprise" requests of ATC such as being told to report at a VOR, in a plane with very unfamiliar instruments (see below).
I took a cab to the FAA regional office to get the temporary airmans certificate, which in those days they just typed up in front of you. The office in in the middle of nowhere so the cab waited. It was not too tragic fare wise, but it could easily be cheaper to hire a car for all this.
Next day I got a cab from the strip (it is a surprisingly long way) to North Las Vegas which is a very busy airport with many movements. I went and visited in person all the schools and hirers, and then made a choice. I was offered a rather nice Arrow at one place, but had no complex ratings so thought this was a bit inappropriate! In the end I chose a school - Aerleon (too long ago to say if they are good now) with some 172's and explained my experience and wishes (to do ground school for US air law, nav and map reading etc and to fly solo over the GC!)
I did a few hours with an instructor on the ground trying to get all the differences in my head, then we went of for a BFR. They used a training area to the east (the whole of Vegas is split between McCarron, Nellis AFB and there is a small slice left for training!), where we did the usual stalls and turns then headed back for circuits. Amazing how being out of your comfort zone makes you crap at landing! The next day we did some nav over to Lake Mead and the Hoover Damm, also going in and out of the Class Bravo airspace. Then some circuits and I was declared ready for the solo the next day.
On arrival, the first surprise - different plane with steam instrument not the modern stuff I was used to! Oh well. Then taxi'd and really found out how busy the place was. Eventually got airborne and was handed a different routing towards Lake Mead, so surprise number 2. Busked it somehow, being told to go right over McCarron International was quite nervy! Anyway, made it to the lake, flew around then went down the GC a bit, but didn't go too far as it was very busy so popped back to the lake and then headed back to North Las Vegas. Again, completely different routing was given, all the VRPs that the instructor had shown me were then irrelevant. Somehow found my way back into the circuit and got downwind, then base. On finals I found myself presented with a V of 2 very similar runway bearings and somehow had to choose which was the correct runway!!! All this with ATC firing off very rapid US radio it was pretty stressful and showed how I wasn't ready for this really. Maybe after I had added 100 hours I would have been much more competent and could try again.
All in all it was great, I have probably made it sound worse here than it actually was, of course there was some great flying a well as the "What does he mean?" moments!! I did bout 5 hours flying over 3 days, which was all the time I had spare.
Looking back I suppose it was amusing that talking to McCarran I had such dodgy radios that I just couldnt hear him, so I had to twice ask him to say again one part. He then slowed to such a slow speech that it sounded like he was at half speed!
I took a cab to the FAA regional office to get the temporary airmans certificate, which in those days they just typed up in front of you. The office in in the middle of nowhere so the cab waited. It was not too tragic fare wise, but it could easily be cheaper to hire a car for all this.
Next day I got a cab from the strip (it is a surprisingly long way) to North Las Vegas which is a very busy airport with many movements. I went and visited in person all the schools and hirers, and then made a choice. I was offered a rather nice Arrow at one place, but had no complex ratings so thought this was a bit inappropriate! In the end I chose a school - Aerleon (too long ago to say if they are good now) with some 172's and explained my experience and wishes (to do ground school for US air law, nav and map reading etc and to fly solo over the GC!)
I did a few hours with an instructor on the ground trying to get all the differences in my head, then we went of for a BFR. They used a training area to the east (the whole of Vegas is split between McCarron, Nellis AFB and there is a small slice left for training!), where we did the usual stalls and turns then headed back for circuits. Amazing how being out of your comfort zone makes you crap at landing! The next day we did some nav over to Lake Mead and the Hoover Damm, also going in and out of the Class Bravo airspace. Then some circuits and I was declared ready for the solo the next day.
On arrival, the first surprise - different plane with steam instrument not the modern stuff I was used to! Oh well. Then taxi'd and really found out how busy the place was. Eventually got airborne and was handed a different routing towards Lake Mead, so surprise number 2. Busked it somehow, being told to go right over McCarron International was quite nervy! Anyway, made it to the lake, flew around then went down the GC a bit, but didn't go too far as it was very busy so popped back to the lake and then headed back to North Las Vegas. Again, completely different routing was given, all the VRPs that the instructor had shown me were then irrelevant. Somehow found my way back into the circuit and got downwind, then base. On finals I found myself presented with a V of 2 very similar runway bearings and somehow had to choose which was the correct runway!!! All this with ATC firing off very rapid US radio it was pretty stressful and showed how I wasn't ready for this really. Maybe after I had added 100 hours I would have been much more competent and could try again.
All in all it was great, I have probably made it sound worse here than it actually was, of course there was some great flying a well as the "What does he mean?" moments!! I did bout 5 hours flying over 3 days, which was all the time I had spare.
Looking back I suppose it was amusing that talking to McCarran I had such dodgy radios that I just couldnt hear him, so I had to twice ask him to say again one part. He then slowed to such a slow speech that it sounded like he was at half speed!
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A nice simple trip for someone new to the area is to follow the Colorado River down to the mexican border. That way you avoid a lot of the high ground, have plenty of interesting places to stop (laughlin, lake havasu, blythe, calexico for example), don't have too much airspace to worry about and have a few options if your engine fails (like ending up in the drink, which is better than the desert 
)
)
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IMHO, Bryce Canyon is much more spectacular than the GC. I visited both 2x on the ground, many years ago. And it has an airport.
In fact I was going to fly up to BC on the final spare day after I finished the IR at Phoenix but sadly in the end didn't bother as I was sick of flying solidly for the previous 2 weeks
And the plane available (PA28-161) could not have made it there and back without fuel stops, which complicates a one-day trip.
In fact I was going to fly up to BC on the final spare day after I finished the IR at Phoenix but sadly in the end didn't bother as I was sick of flying solidly for the previous 2 weeks
And the plane available (PA28-161) could not have made it there and back without fuel stops, which complicates a one-day trip.
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I should have added that there are numerous standard VFR joining procedures into North Las Vegas, all with their own VRPs (Showboat, Bank of America building) so be sure you are aware of all these VRPs when they spring a non-standard rejoin on you or ATC can get a bit terse with you.............
Cusco
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Are you allowed to carry passengers as a JAA licence holder flying with an instructor in the states? Or is it necessary to get converted to FAA before carrying passengers, instructor present or not?
Cheers.
Cheers.
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If you want to log the flight as anything whatsoever, you will need an FAA license, which can be a standalone one or a 61.75 (piggyback) one.
Or, if you have none of the above, you will need the US Student Pilot Certificate (which needs the FAA Class 3 medical as a minimum).
Or, if you have none of the above, you will need the US Student Pilot Certificate (which needs the FAA Class 3 medical as a minimum).
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Or, if you have none of the above, you will need the US Student Pilot Certificate (which needs the FAA Class 3 medical as a minimum).
I THOUGHT that was only required if you wanted to fly solo - but I may very well be wrong
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Good points above about the R/T over there.It is in English but.....You can get used to it by listening to Live ATC on the internet.Las Vegas is one of the airports covered
I was once priviledged to be invited to the sharp end of a UK registered B747 for the approach to LAX.A very friendly Captain asked me to help out with interpretation of the radio traffic.I don't think he was entirely serious but he did idicate that it can be difficult to follow at busy times.
I was once priviledged to be invited to the sharp end of a UK registered B747 for the approach to LAX.A very friendly Captain asked me to help out with interpretation of the radio traffic.I don't think he was entirely serious but he did idicate that it can be difficult to follow at busy times.
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I chose a school - Aerleon (too long ago to say if they are good now)
The planes were very rough, but never let me down. The display in one radio failed during the Bravo and the instructor amazed me by just dialling the frequencies blind and continuing as if nothing had happened! Another time the CFI said "there's some Brits here who'd like a ride" and I ended up with no less than the PFA's Peter Underhill and an equally portly friend in my little 172 pointing out all my many mistakes as we wandered down to Lake Havasu and back!
After a while they just threw me the keys when I arrived, which was a bit of a mixed blessing since I was (and still am) sometimes quite rusty, but it kept me going back, and that's what mattered. RIP Aerleon.
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This thread has kicked up some interesting points, so I'd like to throw my situation into the mix.
I'm currently doing my PPL, and have about 20 hours logged. I've not gone solo yet, as I'm not 16 until March. August next year, we are going on holiday to Vegas & Miami. An idea was we, instead of doing a company tour of the GC, we could hire an aircraft with an instructor and let me fly up. I know that it's not possible to do this without an instructor, but is it actually possible at all? I know I did this in Barbados, after about 5 hours (!), but I'm unsure of the US regulations.
If I do solo in March/May, I will have a medical, and a lot more hours too. Will this make me eligible to take my parents, and an instructor, sightseeing over the GC?
I'm currently doing my PPL, and have about 20 hours logged. I've not gone solo yet, as I'm not 16 until March. August next year, we are going on holiday to Vegas & Miami. An idea was we, instead of doing a company tour of the GC, we could hire an aircraft with an instructor and let me fly up. I know that it's not possible to do this without an instructor, but is it actually possible at all? I know I did this in Barbados, after about 5 hours (!), but I'm unsure of the US regulations.
If I do solo in March/May, I will have a medical, and a lot more hours too. Will this make me eligible to take my parents, and an instructor, sightseeing over the GC?