Advice for landings

[XV255]

Help,

Just had a flight with the CFI that has made me think about packing in my PPL, although he thinks I can still do it.

The problem is the aged old one, how do you land the thing (c152)!

I was on tomahawks but then the school closed (dam recession) then moved airfields and aircraft. I have 23 hours and been told i should be solo by now, although about 7 hours are ex 12,13 over the different aircraft and airfields.

Any tips....

[Legalapproach]

I suspect that the best advice would be - relax. It may be that you're becoming so worried about getting it wrong that it's becoming a self fulfilling prophesy. Landing is the hardest phase of flight but it 's not that hard otherwise I wouldn't be able to do it - once you crack it you'll wonder why you hadn't done it that way before. Many years ago when I first started flying (in gliders) I just didn't understand the flare; I couldn't work out where to look, what to do and when. After a number of dreadful barely controlled crashes I flew with yet another instructor who gave me a few tips, renewed my then fast evaporating confidence and one day it worked. It continued to work and has done on allsorts of different aircraft types and sizes ever since ( allright - with the occasional lapse).

What is the problem at the moment? Is it the approach or the flare or what. A bit more info might elicit a few tips from people

[Golf--Lima--Papa]

Snap,

I had the exact same problem, I logged my first 16hrs in a PA-38, before the school went bust and I moved onto the C152, it took me hours to get used to judging the flare and hold off.

If I'm honest It just clicked after around 15 hours in the 152, I went on to complete the PPL in 51 hours 35 mins, and 2 hours 25 for my skills test.

Dont let it get you down, just keep at it and it will click. :ok:

[Saab Dastard]

Any tips....

Yes, use the search function on this forum - this topic has had many excellent threads and contributions that are accessible simply by using the Advanced Search.

Choose "Landing tips" or "Landing technique" as keyword (titles only), Private Flying as the forum, and From any date (and newer).

SD

[profot]

Its not for everyone but many people seem to pull off a better landing if on the transition from approach to flare you look toward the end of the runway...

[mad_jock]

23 hours is no way overdue to be going solo and thats without changing school or aircraft type.

BTW there is now a PA38 school open again at INV same building as the flying school folded in if you prefer flying them.

[ShyTorque]

All you gotta do is fly it to the ground then stop it.

(Try to imagine landing on a large conveyor belt...... :E ).

[Ultranomad]

i had a similar problem when converting to a c172. got it cured by two things:
1. laying the flight manuals for the two aircraft side by side and comparing the characteristic speeds. in my case, the 172 had a slightly higher recommended approach speed but a lower stall speed. as soon as i understood there was a greater speed margin to lose, everything else was clear.
2. for a while (until i got a better feeling of the plane), trimming slightly nose up on the final so i wouldn't have to pull so hard.

[AliB]

One thing I found when I was having problems with landings was that I was thinking (or perhaps worrying is more accurate) too far ahead - i.e. getting preoccupied with "when should I flare" when I should still be concentrating on the approach speed, or worse still, rushing to arrange the go-around when I should still be looking ahead and flaring.

Try to relax (yeah I know - far easier said than done!) and don't give up - you will get there in the end. It may not be landings, and it may not be within our PPL, but many of us (all of us?) go through a stage like this.

Ali

[Rodent1982]

With my instructor in the plane I tend to come in too low. I'm aiming for the begining of the threshold, trying to make it the 'perfect' landing. Then comes the sink, and I have to add too much power to get back on the glide slope. Due to the extra power I tend to be too high, too fast, and have to hold off for too long and end up bouncing. (I've gotten better tho).

Without the instructor, I have always had near perfect landings.

Relax, don't try too hard. You're in a plane, it's awesome. Remember what you've been taught, anticipate sinks where you'd expect it, come in too high add flaps or go-around. Come in too low and it takes alot more effort to sort yourself out.

But most importantly, don't give up!

[trident3A]

I went solo on about 23 hrs, in the 152 make sure you nail 65kts, as the runway comes up round your shoulders level out, throttle back and then just try and keep it flying! Try to anticipate the sink and pitch up to compensate, just bring the nose gradually up and it will settle itself on the runway. I had people explain it to me so many different ways but in the end you just get a feel for it. Are you landing flaps 30 or 20? 30 always seems easier to me as it seems less inclined to float. Happy landings!

[Norfolk Newbie]

There were two tips (both of which I read on here) that helped me out and they still help me out now.

i) As you start to round out, move your focus to about 2/3 of the way down the runway and rely on your peripheral vision to judge the flare. Initially its sounds and feels strange, but it does work.

ii) Someone on here talked about an instructor who used to pull out a £50 note and tell the student it was his if he could keep the aircraft flying just above the runway until the end of the runway. If you try to do this with no power, the only way is to keep raising the nose until eventually you settle onto the runway perfectly.

I hope these help you as much as they did me.

[Jofm5]

There is an interesting discussion in the instructor section on teaching the landing, techniques and common problems - it may be worth you having a read to see if you can glean any insight. The thread can be found here http://www.pprune.org/flying-instructors-examiners/377421-teaching-final-part-landing.html you can also take comfort in that if instructors are talking about it, you are not alone in having it as a problem.

[Crash one]

Difficult to describe but the "ground rush" when the airfield suddenly seems to up to your ears & no longer below you, then you round out/flare, looking at the far end, then try not to land by keep moving the stick/yoke back.
Sit in it on the apron & get someone to pull the tail down/nose wheel off the ground 6" (152mm) & try to remember that "picture".
Pontificating about "How to land an aeroplane" is great when you are sitting at a keyboard. You should see some of my "landings" you would laugh like a drain. I usually apologise to my passenger that I have done better. However the a/c is still useable after.
As has been said it will click one day & you will wonder what all the fuss was about.
Meantime have fun & enjoy it.

[Pilot DAR]

The advice to hold the plane off the ground is the best advice here. Get close to the ground, keep it straight down the runway, slowly pull the power right off, and then pretend that you have decided not to land after all, and hold it off (don't add power of course). Even after the wheels touch, keep holding it off, it really helps with slowing down.

Don't worry about running off the end of the runway. If you crossed the threshold at the right speed and altitude, then land as we have suggested, you'll be fine. The plane will slow down as quickly in the air, as it would have on the ground anyway. You're not using any brakes until the very end of the roll out anyway.

Relax, you'll do fine...

Pilot DAR

[RatherBeFlying]

When you can distinguish surface texture or individual grass blades, it's time to flare. I sometimes have people climb up a TV antenna tower 8-10' to get a sight picture of the grass below that matches when they should be beginning to flare.

That's the time to begin looking at the end of the runway while holding landing attitude and controlling drift. You have to use peripheral vision for the last few feet / inches of descent.

Sometimes in the glider I can hear the grass brushing the tailwheel and just squeeze on a bit more spoiler to bring the main down:E

Some of us have an ocular defect that leads to late or early flares. The optometrist will suggest prisms and trust me, they make a big difference. Your medical examiner had you look at a slide with red dots against upside down l's. If the line does not go through the middle, see an optometrist about prisms.

[martinprice]

Not clear where, exactly, you're hitting the problem but if it's in judging the flare then there's already been plenty of good advice (and it's been a while since I landed a 152). The most important point of all being to relax and enjoy yourself - this is supposed to be fun after all.

If your problems start before the flare then maybe you're not judging the approach correctly. You need to manage the energy state of the aircraft, where you have both kinetic (speed) and potential (altitude) energy. Nail the airspeed and make sure you keep that speed and use the sight picture to judge if you're getting low or high. If you're getting low on energy (slow speed/low) then you need to bring in some power. If you're getting high (too fast/high) you need to reduce power, or add flaps. Be flexible. No two landings are the same.

Still, above all, relax (yeah, I know I said it twice) and have confidence in your ability to land the plane. Confidence will help you no end.

One final point - it may not hurt to try a flight or two with a different instructor to get some more input on your flying. A good instructor will have no problems with you doing this and, in fact, it's exactly what I did for one flight when I was having trouble nailing wheel landings in a Citabria. A different perspective can really help sometimes.

[Barkly1992]

Agree with profot about looking at the end of the runway.

This was how I was taught - and in fact told and then try and get the aircraft to actually fly by holding off - holding off.

When I worked in the Oz regulator years ago we also took on board someone doing a masters degree in psychology to assist her with her thesis which was focused on how pilots learn to land an aircraft.

After months of study using all sorts of devices in an experiment with pilots of all backgrounds including military, RPT, instructors and low time GA pilots like myself she came to the conclusion that there is no one way to teach or to land an aircraft. All pilots do it differently - and in most cases successfully.

Not sure whether she was granted her masters on the basis of this.
:ok:

[mad_jock]

I would go with that Barkly.

Its strange sometimes its lunch that sorts any problems out. Something just clicks and then solo is only 3 circuits away.

There are all sorts of theorys about how to teach the landing all of them correct.

90% of the time when I had problem students it was because they hadn't really understood the basic lessons. A couple of hours revision and back to the circuit and things were sorted.

I was only ever defeated by one student

[Fuji Abound]

You need a long runway somewhere and a willing instructor.

If the approach is sound, bad landings are almost always are caused by:

a. A lack of feel for where the runway is,
b. The need to rush the landing before you run ouf of tarmac.

With a long runway available you can attempt a few landings where you hold the aircraft off for as long as possible in the certain knowledge there is no risk of running out of runway. You might well be amazed at just how quickly the aircraft stops after in finally settles. You will also develop a feel for where the runway is because the brain learns the perspective by frequent exposure to the visual ques. If you havent many landings under your belt and they have all been a bit rushed the brains exposure to these visual ques is short. A loooong holdoff will give your brain more visual ques that it gets in 10 rushed landings so doing it this way also represents very good value for money.

I know it works, tried it with quite a few and they are always amazed at what an effective cure it provides. In fact if you start flying faster aircraft (or at least aircraft with a faster approach speed) it remains just as effective when you find yourself rushing the landings because you are worried about running out of tarmac. A short session of going back to basics soon sorts it out.

Good luck.

[jxk]

We all learn in different ways; I'm the sort of person that needs a mental picture of what's required others do things by rote (eg:air-speeds). I remember seeing a little diagram in the old Birch & Bramston books showing a side view of the path an aircraft should make: flare, hold-off and touch down. On my next lesson pulled off some great landings. Good-luck!

[bern444]

As everyone says - you'll get there, and lots of us had exactly the same problems.

A while back I had a chance to fly a 152 for the first time in 17 years. I worried about maybe needing a checkout, but in the end just got in. It was so easy to fly - I was amazed. It had seemed so difficult when I was at the "20 hours and no solo" stage. "Everything but the last five feet", I used to say to instructors " - why can't I do it?" . But then I could. Soon enough they'd say "land on the numbers", and in a 152 you can almost say "which part of the numbers?" I just know you'll manage it too.

I hesitate to suggest this in such illustrious company, but you might try a change of instructor. That doesn't mean your current one is bad, but the slightly different approach of a different person in the right seat may help. It's certainly how I got over my fear of stalling in whatever lesson that is.

Bernie

[worrab]

JXK - don't suppose you could post that diagram?

[mad_jock]

Your proberly missing the vital phrase.

First of all get the instructor to show you the landing picture.

As you fly down the approach make sure your trimmed.

As the runway appears to starts moving towards you pitch the nose up to the straight and level attitude.

As the runway sides start coming up towards you pitch to the previously demonstrated picture while putting the power to idle. Waggle the rudder pedals so the instructor thinks your actually doing something with them.

Hold the attitude. Now this is the important bit.

In a loud clear voice say "get down you whore"

Once the aircraft has done as its told hold the same picture by increasing back pressure then lower the nose gently to the runway while continuing to pretend you know what your doing with the rudder.

Jobs a goodun.

PS ladys can substitue bastard instead of whore

PPS this method works up to 10 tons in my experence.

[kalleh]

Just try to fly to the horizon with the throttle back. Don't focus your eyes near in front of the aircraft, literally aim to fly to the horizon.

[XV255]

I laughed out loud at

In a loud clear voice say "get down you whore"
maybe thats what I am doing wrong :ok:

I have taken the points on board and the phrase ground rush is exactly what it is...

More lessons many one or two on Monday. I loved the tomahawk the field of vision is amazing compared to the 152 (in my opinion) and will go back to them when I complete.

Revising the circuit brief all weekend.... but if i get solo i can assure you all
"get down you whore" will be uttered after my cleared to land call....

XV

[Jofm5]

Just make sure you dont leave the mike open :}

[mad_jock]

So have you gone solo yet?

[MikeBradbury]

This made me laugh ...

Waggle the rudder pedals so the instructor thinks your actually doing something with them


Nice one, mad jock.
:D

[mad_jock]

Its actually a cunning instructor trick.

Students tend to forget that they have a set of pedals. Just the simple fact they waggle them gets them remembering that there is something down there and low and behold they start pointing it down the runway. ;)

[Mikehotel152]

I agree that

The advice to hold the plane off the ground is the best advice here.

A couple of years ago I was doing a check ride at Lanseria Airport in SA and the Tower had not given me clearance to land despite my timely arrival at the threshold! I realised this just as I was in the flare and held off. It was very 'educational' flying a few feet off the deck, just above the stall, trying to get a word in with the Tower. :p

But on a serious note, it taught me that visual frame of reference for landing. Worth trying.

[Captain Stable]

There are three rules to making a good landing.

Unfortunately, nobody knows what they are. ;)

Don't panic, and persevere. The art of landing is like riding a bicycle. You can't really be taught it. All an insturctor can do is to demonstrate, talk you through and (on occasion) help with a light hand on the flare. The rest is up to you, and sooner or later, like a kid learning to get "balance" on a bike, you'll get it. Thereafter, you'll never lose it again.

The main thing is to make sure you're set up for the approach in good time, trimmed, and stable with sensible power set - depending on conditions, around 15-1700 RPM will do it with two stages of flap and speed 65 kts. Thereafter, make only small corrections to attitude, heading or power, and make them early rather than having to make large corrections to get back on the GP or Rwy centreline or speed.

It's far, far easier to make a good landing from a good approach than it is off a poor approach. When nicely established, ensure checks are complete and get in your call "G-XXXX final". And then sit there, just making small corrections to keep the picture looking as it should. Don't react to the aircraft - instead, make IT do what YOU want.

Close the throttle all the way crossing the threshhold, marginally before you start the flare, and always remember the flare is not a single pull of the control column to check sink - it's a steady, almost continuous, slow rearward movement of the control column. If you run out of flying airspeed too high, just a small burst of power will slow the rate of sink.

Good luck!

[Pilot DAR]

Close the throttle all the way crossing the threshhold, marginally before you start the flare, and always remember the flare is not a single pull of the control column to check sink - it's a steady, almost continuous, slow rearward movement of the control column. If you run out of flying airspeed too high, just a small burst of power will slow the rate of sink.


I certainly do not disagree with this, and it is one good way to perfect landing technique. With respect to Captain Stable, I will offer some additional thoughts...

Once you begin your flare in a tricycle aircraft (assuming no major or sudden changes in power) the motion of the pitch control will always be a pull, or slight pause between pulls. Never a relaxing or push (unless you encountered a sudden incredible gust of wind). This pull will continue as appropriate to maintaining the desired pitch, until there is no elevator effect at all, by which point, you are safely rolled out on the runway. Therefore, I would expect to see on most types (Tomahawks excepted) the controls being held full back until you've cleared the runway.

Couple this, with a careful effort to prevent the aircraft touching the runway as long as you are able. This will result in a stall warning system actuating. That's a good thing. Your objective is to enter a stall inches above the runway. You'll never have recover the stall, because the aircraft will have settled on very nicely first.

When you practice stalls at altitude it's to gain experience in handling the aircraft at very low speeds, recognizing the appraoch to stall, and learning how and when to recover. Of course, only a fool would deliberatey enter a stall tens of feet off the ground, but entering inches off a runway with length ahead of you is perfectly fine.

Stalls happen at an angle of attack, not so much a speed, though there is a relationship. Stalls will happen, independant of power setting, thus we practice power off and power on stalls. For the purpose of this discussion, let's consider the power on stall only to be a partial power stall, we'll stay away from full power stall...

So why only practice power off stalls at the runway? Partial power stalls work well there too. As a pilot once told me, "we practice flying for hundreds of hours, we pracitce flaring for only seconds". You can get more pratice in the flare by stretching it out. Certainly, runway length is a consideration, so assure you have enough. While nicely established in the flare, add a little power, so as to have affected the characteristics of the aircraft. You will lengthen your opportunity to learn how the aircraft handles in the flare. As you progress, you will find that the aircraft can be landed at higher power settings quite nicely.

So what's the point of landing with power? You will learn the techniques of gentle landings, because you've stretched the flare to just the right point. You will know what the plane will feel like should you decide to delay your touchdown, so as to be further down the runway (maybe because you saw a soft looking spot in the grass at the last second). You will also work toward confidence, should in be necessary to go around from the flare, or after just having touched at a stall (wildlife ran across the runway in front of you).

As a pilot of a powered airplane, it is necessary to perfect landing without power ('cause you're going to have to one day...), but it's also your responsibility to learn to use all of the aircraft's capabilities in combination to maitain safe flight in a variety of circumstances. Some of those circumstances involve your intended landing point needing to change at the very last second. These techniques also work should you choose to want to "feel" the landing surface with the wheels, without committing to land. But that's a technique for another discussion, and only with qualified mentoring.

Pilot DAR

[Stephen Furner]

Have you tried looking at a few cockpit videos of people landing a Cessna 150, 152 or 172? It might help if you ask your instructor to fly a couple of touch and goes with you taking a video through the windscreen from start of base leg to climb out after the touch down. If you can get audio as well he or she could describe what is going on e.g. “I’ve increase engine revs by 200 to reduce rate of decent, holding nose pointing just right of runway into cross wind . . .etc” This may help you get the picture out the windscreen and the actions needed to keep it looking right.

While it will be tough on your self esteem you could ask the instructor to video you making a couple of landings as well for replay in the lesson debriefing and so you can get a better idea of what you are actually doing. In the high workload situation of trying to learn to land it can be difficult to take in everything that’s going on.

I saw a documentary recently where the Red Arrows were using this technique of video analysis of performance as part of their training for new pilots learning display routines. In the documentary it looked to be very effective but harsh for the pilots concerned since their every minor mistake was being chewed over and widely exposed to everyone involved in the display team.

Most of all relax and enjoy flying. You are not in a race for who can go solo in the shortest time and you have one hell of a way to go yet before you will beat the longest time. The key is to solo when you are ready for it, this will come with practice and training.

[SirLaughalot]

Close the throttle all the way crossing the threshhold...Do you tend to always cut the power when you are certain of making the runway, rather than waiting and gently easing the power off as you enter the flare?

Cheers :)

[Captain Stable]

Nope.

The only time I teach cutting the power off entirely when certain of making the runway and before the threshhold is on a glide approach.

In a C152 (the aircraft under discussion) for a normal approach I teach taking all power off when crossing the threshhold, immediately before flaring.

In a high-tailed aircraft, of course, the technique is different due to less ground effect on the stabiliser and prop wash.

[SirLaughalot]

Okay, thanks for the explanation! :ok:

[Blinkz]

Your proberly missing the vital phrase.

First of all get the instructor to show you the landing picture.

As you fly down the approach make sure your trimmed.

As the runway appears to starts moving towards you pitch the nose up to the straight and level attitude.

As the runway sides start coming up towards you pitch to the previously demonstrated picture while putting the power to idle. Waggle the rudder pedals so the instructor thinks your actually doing something with them.

Hold the attitude. Now this is the important bit.

In a loud clear voice say "get down you whore"

Once the aircraft has done as its told hold the same picture by increasing back pressure then lower the nose gently to the runway while continuing to pretend you know what your doing with the rudder.

Jobs a goodun.

PS ladys can substitue bastard instead of whore

PPS this method works up to 10 tons in my experence.

I find this works over 10 tons as well, in fact I regularly use this method at weights of 60+ tons. :p

[mad_jock]

I regularly use this method at weights of 60+ tons

Do you use the xwind landing technique

"don't drift you :mad:ing bitch arr :mad: it get down you whore"

[Piper.Classique]

Do you use the xwind landing technique

"don't drift you ing bitch arr it get down you whore"

No. It's "now come on dear, into wind wheel NOW, ok now wait wait wait OK thats two down keep the tailwheel UP don't swing you cowbag.....stay on the effing runway please":ok:

[Crash one]

My Xwind landings are a lot easier since the silage crop was cut either side of the strip! I wish he would hurry up & cut the barley & give me an undershoot area.

[jollyrog]

I could offer you some tips on landings. They might be good, they might be rubbish. I'm more inclined to go with the latter, as I'm not that experienced.

You are however paying someone a lot of money to sit next to you and teach you landings. There's a strong possibility that some of the advice (if not all) that you receive here will conflict with that instructor's.

Your instructor knows best at this stage. Follow his/her advice. Your CFI/Examiner will be expecting you to do so. If you do, you'll land the 'plane and won't be dead. You'll have fair reward for your money.

Anything else is potentially contradictory and asking for trouble. Come back after your skill test, if you feel the need. However, if you anticipate the need, think about a new instructor now.

[Pilot DAR]

Well.... Yes. It is wise to learn the skills for which you will be examined. But it might be somewhat limiting to consider only those skills, as other more advanced skills provide a more broad perspective on the whole thing. There are many landing techniques possible to achieve the same result. Opening one's mind to considering is a good thing, to be encouraged, and worthy of reply.

XV255 asked for some other ways of thinking about landing. Perhaps simply considering a different technique, and the fact that other people advocate it, will inspire perfecting the basic skills.

Keep an open mind!

[astir 8]

Read Anthony Woodward's "Propellerhead". There's an excellent description of how a different instructor cracked his problems with landing.

The key was "Make no attempt to land the plane. Fly it down the runway, just above the ground and keep reducing the throttle. Try to keep it flying. Ultimately the plane lands itself."