Any tips on Flying EGSF to EDHS

[Big Sand]

A friend and I are planning a two ship Bulldog formation from EGSF (Peterborough Connington) to EDHS Stade (W.Germany) in August 2009.

We would really appreciate any tips, suggestions from those more experienced in flying VFR in Continental Europe. Any good airfields en route worth dropping into?. What weather services can be obtained via the internet or volumet en route?. Any helpful tips on useful ATC services to use would also be greatly appreciated. Any specific regulations we need to be aware of when stopping in Belguim & Germany?

What's the best charts and VFR guides to buy for the trip?

Notionally, we had though a route like:

EGSF - EGSR - DET -DVR -LFAK - EBKH - RKN -WSR -EDSH (What do you think?)

Many thanks

Big Sand :ok:

[Fuji Abound]

Big Sand

I think you mean EDHS in the last line of your route?

You seem to be going a very long way around. Coasting out at Harwich gives a crossing no longer than going to the CIs but cuts a significant time off the journey. Are you keen to make the shortest crossing?

[Big Sand]

FA,
Many thanks for spotting the last ICAO code in the intended route. Yes, it is EDHS.

The idea was for a narrow Channel crossing if possible which does make it a bit longer. We have very good sea survival kit on both aircraft but I would rather not put it to the test.

That said how what route would you suggest?

Very best regards

Big Sand

[Big Sand]

As FA has highlighted route suggested should read:

EGSF - EGSR - DET -DVR -LFAK - EBKH - RKN -WSR -EDHS (What do you think?)

Best regards,


Big Sand

[BackPacker]

Your routing and altitude options, particularly in the Netherlands (RKN VOR), will be greatly limited if you do not have Mode-S and an ELT. Do you?

[Fuji Abound]

I'd route Harwich COA for a crossing of only just over 20 nm and a route saving of 40 nm, which would be worthwhile. You can make the crossing at FL55, the same as the English Channel. Obvioulsy on the day weather might be a factor and help determine the route.

Holland and Germany are easy as is the rest of the route. You will get an excellent service and chances are a clearance through whatever you like, so dont be put off by the map, just make sure you are familair with it.

Make sure you check on the need for a nosie certificate at Stade - the Germans can be most particular.

I have never been to Stade but the rest of the route is straightforward with, not surprisingly, very little high ground. Coming back across Holland last time I decided to enjoy the scenery and remain VFR and managed the whole route at about 1,500 feet below an "angry" base. Great scenery, if not too everyones taste, and you can see for miles.

Enjoy!!

[Fuji Abound]

Just to add, having had a second look, I would even consider EGSD dct EHTX for a crossing of only 40 nm but a route saving of 120 nm. With a total route distance of 360 nm it becomes a pleasant single hop trip as opposed to a slog presumably on the limits of your endurance and possibly more.

I am possibly more adverse than the next man to sea crossings in a single but 40 nm really is not too bad particulary if you can get high and I think for a saving of 120 miles well worth considering. It also keeps you well away from all the jolly trippers down sarth doing the L2K run.

For me it would only be 15 minutes over the sea and a total trip time of just over 2 hours so I probably wouldnt give it a second thought.

Be interested in what you think.

[Fuji Abound]

Sorry, to answer the rest of the question if you take the last route you will probably only end up speaking to Dutch Mil 132.35, Leeuwarden App 122.100 and Eelde 118.70. Any of the charts will do as take your fancy.

You could drop into Leer if you want to break the journey - give them a call to check on fees as I have not been there before but heard it is pleasant enough. Perhaps Backpacker will know more.

[BackPacker]

Leer is in Belgium and I've never been there so no comment...

What's the typical range of a Bulldog? If you can fly EGSF to EDHS direct you won't be getting any tips from me about refueling stops. But if you do need to refuel in Holland, I recommend either EHMZ (if you take the southern routing) or EHTX (if you fly direct). Both have customs (but do check PN requirements) so that takes care of those formalities.

Furthermore, apart from the water crossing, do you prefer to fly high or low? Fly anywhere near EHAM and you'll be forced below 1300'. Some like it that way, some don't.

[Big Sand]

<P>BP,</P>
<P>&nbsp;Thanks, got mode Charlie only but the other Bulldog does have mode - Sierra. I dare say he could lead and as leader would be the only aircraft with the transponder live.</P>
<P>&nbsp;</P>
<P>What are the level restrictions you refer to as I am still awaiting the Jeppesen's back order on the maps. Pity the don't tell you that when you order them?! <IMG alt=0 src="http://www.pprune.org/forums/images/smilies2/eusa_wall.gif" border=0 smilieid="18"></P>
<P>&nbsp;</P>
<P>Cheers</P>
<P>&nbsp;</P>
<P>&nbsp;</P>
<P>Big Sand</P>

[Big Sand]

FA,
Many thanks for the response - greatly appreciated. The 'old dog' does have a noise cert and thanks for the head's up - I will check it's in the doc pack.

Low level across Holland sounds pretty good to me my wife's Dutch so I have seen a fair bit of it already.

If I come across any points of interest in the Germany Ex I will happily feed these back.

All the best and thanks again.

Happy flying.


Big Sand :ok:

[Big Sand]

Hi Back P,
Thanks for the feedback. Typical Bulldog range max 3.5hrs but under 4 gals a side the 1970's fuel meter can be a bit dicky. Also flying in formation the following aircraft is always going to have a higher fuel burn.

Let's say 2.5hrs with a 45min divert is 'comfortable'.

Regards low level, not a major issue as long as we have an accurate pressure and good visibility and the leader has a good fix on the charts. I dare say the airspace is going to mean a lot of low level or 'get lucky' with a controller with a lower work load.

Most important is that it's safe and legal. Then I am sure we will 'enjoy the ride'.

Thanks for taking the time to feedback - much appreciated!

VBR

Big Sand:ok:

[Big Sand]

FA,
Had a better look at the route via EHTX from Beccles EGSM. The sea crossing at 123nm maybe a wee bit long for us. Despite having full military emersion suits and lifepreservers with ELB's etc etc I just hate the thought of that Lycoming 4 banger going pop. That said we regularly do the Caernarfon - IOM crossing so are used to more than 30mins over water.

Anyway your suggestions on EHTX and EHMZ really made me think as it would make the route easier and shorter.

Cheers FA - food for thought

Big Sand.

[BackPacker]

Took a more detailed look.

If you prefer a short crossing, recommend you cross DVR-KOK, fly along the coast to COA, then simply follow the rivers "Maas" and "Waal" (at your option). Near Arnhem head direct for RKN, cross the EHTW CTR and head for WSR. This route will take you very near EHMZ where you can refuel and say hello to customs. They also have a decent restaurant - there was a thread about EHMZ and its restaurant a few weeks ago on here.

After COA, another option is to fly visually over Zeeland to Dordrecht and then head for PAM. This is the bit where you have to stay < 1300' due to the Schiphol TMA and SRZ (check the NOTAMs for what the Schiphol SRZ is!). After PAM head about 070-ish, mind the EHLE ATZ/SRZ and head for WSR. This is very convenient if you want to fill up at EHLE.

Personally I find EHLE a bit boring but they have good facilities, including customs (check PN requirements) and an excellent restaurant (Flantula - on top of the Martinair building). They also have the highest landing fees in the Netherlands for what is essentially an uncontrolled field. Do read up on the approach procedures for EHLE though!

And of course if you cross direct, EHTX comes highly recommended. Very friendly, well maintained grass field with a good restaurant and a great atmosphere. It's got a hotel on-site too.

Another option to consider for the crossing is CLN-HSD by the way. That keeps you out of the busy airspace around London but is still a relatively short crossing.

As for your mode-C transponder in the Netherlands: the general rule is that if you're flying single ship, then your mode-C counts for nothing: without mode-S you have to have it switched off, and are limited to the airspace below 1200'. For a formation, I have not seen any rules whatsoever. I recommend you call the guys at the LVNL (the Dutch NATS) to explain your situation. They'll probably don't mind you flying formation with a mode-S equipped aircraft above 1200', and they probably wouldn't mind you flying single ship with just mode C too, as long as they know beforehand. Homepage - OPS help desk LVNL (http://www.lvnl-ohd.nl/)

[Radar]

Big Sand,

Just a small correction on Backpackers post. Leer, as suggested earlier, is in Germany (just over the Dutch / German border from Groningen). It is 1200m of tarmac and has avgas. If you consider it as a stopping off spot on the direct crossing to EHTX, I'm heading that way on Sunday and I'll get the relevant gen for you.

[Big Sand]

Back P,
Super information and thanks again for taking the time to respond in depth - especially on the transponder details. We will certainly give the Dutch NATS a bell just to touchbase and particularly as we are flying two military marked aircraft in close formation over foreign soil.

I am away from base at the moment but will check out the route more thoroughly when I get back home.

Any idea on where we can get Met info / Notams en route?. We will have WIFI capable laptops with us for planning. Any idea on Volumet and any useful websites you could suggest?

Very best regards,


Big Sand

[Big Sand]

Radar,
That's very kind of you. From what BackP says EHTX also sounds like a nice wee place to drop into.

Since my wife's Dutch it would also be useful to sound out a few places in Holland for the future. It's a real pity that Rotterdam Airport has clamped down on GA. That would be idea for visiting the 'Outlaws'. Is there any cheaper way into Rotterdam nowaday's perhaps via the flying club? Or has most GA moved out?.

Info on Leer would be greatly appreciated. Happy to feedback any good info from our trip to EDHS in due course.


Many thanks


VBR

Big Sand

[Fuji Abound]

Laptops are fine but a pain for a trip such as this. I reckon you are just as well off with weather on your mobile from YAWS - you have everything you want there from METARS to TAFS to European Sferics and weather radar, albeit I guess on the outbound leg you will have a look at Avbrief for the synoptics before you go. For anywhere in Europe the NATS narrow route briefing still seems to be the best source.

To keep things in context it is only a three hour or so hour flight across pretty benign country side - I think it unlikely the weather will be that marginal but more likely to prove the trip is clearly possible or clearly impossible.

If you are not instrument rated then the longer sea crossing could be an issue if the conditions so dictate but then again even on good VMC days there may not be much of an horizon over the English Channel and you are out of sight of land for long enough that some basic instrument skills are useful.

(Edited to add: If you end up going in marginal conditions or the conditions become marginal you will find the services from Belgium Mil and Brussels (if you go that way) first rate. I have never had an issue with their passing me en route weather for where ever I want and once when not equipted to go IFR was working my way around Brussels and through their approach to avoid weather with their full co-operation and help - a really first rate service.

FWIW I get the impression you have never flown in that part of the world before which was one reason I was keen to help. Dont be daunted (as you might well be from a first look at the chart) the AT services are amazing, they will help you through the airspace if needed and they really are first rate - I might almost say they put us to shame, but then again if you know how to ask our lot arent too bad, and maybe they are even better if you come over as a jolly foreigner.

[Big Sand]

FA,
Cheers - some good points made. I am always mindful of the Wx and for peace of mind always like to have a good idea what to expect. Okay, that's never an exact science with Wx.

Certainly, keeping the kit to a minimum will be important but unfortunately for business I dare say a Blackberry and LapTop may end up sneaking into the kit bag for the trip. :bored:

Thanks again


Big Sand

[BackPacker]

Is there any cheaper way into Rotterdam nowaday's perhaps via the flying club?

At EHRD handling is cheapest from Aviapartner, but stil 90 euros or so for a light single. That does not include the landing/ATC fee, AFAIK.

Handling is mandatory and the Vliegclub Rotterdam (of which I'm a member) nor the RAC are officially allowed to offer you handling services - you need to go to the KLM JetCenter or Aviapartner. Exceptions to mandatory handling are only made for people who are either member of the Vliegclub or have an appointment with the Vliegclub.

If you have a WiFi laptop you can use the normal sources for WX, NOTAMS and Flight Plans. (Note that FPLs are mandatory when you cross a FIR boundary!)

Here's what I typically use, but do note that I'm a Netherlands resident and I might be entitled to services that you are not entitled to:

Netherlands Aviation weather (public site, in Dutch but you should be able to find the Low Level Forecast, METAR and TAF keywords in the right hand column): KNMI Luchtvaartmeteorologie (http://www.knmi.nl/waarschuwingen_en_verwachtingen/luchtvaart/). You can also call the KNMI and get a meteorologist on the phone to provide additional information to the TAFs and METARs. Phone numbers for VFR and IFR are in the AIP, but note that they're not exactly cheap.
Loads of weather information from lots of sources: Wetter : Wetterzentrale : Top Karten (http://www.wetterzentrale.de/topkarten/) and an interactive loop on 21st Operational Weather Squadron (http://131.54.120.150/index.cfm?section=dspLoop&image=21OWS_EUROPE_FITL_PROG-BRIEFING_??)

NOTAMs, AIP information: From the Eurocontrol site: https://www.ead.eurocontrol.int/
NOTAMs can also be found on the http://www.homebriefing.nl site (registration required)

Flight plans: Can be entered on the http://www.homebriefing.nl site. Or phone them in. The FIO telephone numbers are in the AIP or Jeppesen.

[Big Sand]

Back P,
Fantastic info and thanks very much again for all your kind assistance - much appreciated. Your points about EHRD are much as I suspected but had hoped that there may have been a lesser known backdoor as there are with many larger airfields but alas becoming fewer.

As I may have mentioned my other half is Dutch so I think I can figure my way around most Dutch websites.

VBR :ok:


Big Sand

[Radar]

Big Sand,

EHTX is a fabulous little spot. I've always enjoyed the warmest of welcomes there, even with a less than standard arrival:eek: I've never refuelled there but I would imagine it's not very different from most dutch fields and, consequently, could make your eyes water a bit !!

As far as taking the loptop along, it might come in handy, possibly, but I doubt it'll be worth it. As stated earlier by Fuji, it's a relatively short trip. You'll have access to wx briefing before departure. I'm assuming you probably won't take on the trip in the Bulldog with highly volatile wx so there should be few significant changes from forecast in the timespan of the trip. Once you hit the continent, there are a plethora of fields with ATIS with which you can track developements. Even more should you need somewhere to put down in a hurry. Add to that the service provided by the various ATS units (an RIS or better in old money) and you should be well covered.

For the return trip wherever you stay; family, friends or hotel will no doubt have internet acces. Backpacker's suggestions will tick all the boxes for you. Add to that Aviation Weather >> Europe > metar taf sigmet notam winds aloft significant weather information (http://www.euro.wx.propilots.net) which has served me well for the past number of years. A sort of one stop shop if you like.

[BackPacker]

Forgot this one:

MET'MAP - ORBIFLY FLIGHT SCHOOL - IFR ET CPL AMERICAIN EN EUROPE - FAA IFR AND CPL IN EUROPE (http://www.orbifly.com/ORBITEST/metmap.php?lang=ENG)

They interpret the METARs and give them a color code. This allows you to identify the trouble spots along your route easily. You can then click and zoom to find out the details.

[Fuji Abound]

Backpacker

PM sent

[Fuji Abound]

Well the thread wetted my apetite for somewhere different.

Thanks to Backpacker I gave the Vleigclub Rotterdam a call and they were happy to "handle" me. The way it works (or in my case) is a follow me car will meet you and guide you to the club parking which is immediately opposite the easterly approach. The chap in the follow me car takes the fee which in my case was 26E for the landing and parking - not bad at all.

The club is great and really helpful. Having never been to Rotterdam in my case sad to say it is a thumbs down - a very modern City with little apparent character, although some nice places to eat. The City itself would not be high on my priorities.

I went VFR outbound and it suited me to go dct TRACA (just north of Calais) dct. This neatly avoids the Gravelines PA which the French get excited about although with an upper limit of 3,500 chances are you will be over the top. The route along the coast only involves calls to Lille, Ostend (for the transit), Dutch Mil and Rotterdam. Coming back it was MADUX dct Dover for a much longer crossing. For VFR flying make sure you have the VFR arrivals and departures chart of the Belgium AIP for Rotterdam although they seem happy enough to give you vectors as well.

I hope may be of interest to anyone wishing to go there.

It was unbelievably quite flying with the odd Brit around although anyone below FL60 was in the soup.

Thanks Backpacker. :)

Big Sand - so Rotterdam have definitely not clamped down on GA at the moment and indeed it is very good value indeed, so no excuse I am afraid for visiting the outlaws. They say there are 6 flights a day to Blighty but the place seemed pretty quite with most of the noise be made by a twin flying calibration runs on the ILS!!

[BackPacker]

Fuji, glad you enjoyed the trip. And yes, Rotterdam is quite a modern city: The Germans bombed the heck out of it at the start of WWII so nothing of the "old" city remains.

I can imagine that the place would be rather quiet yesterday, with the weather we had. The Vliegclub Rotterdam is responsible for about half the movements on the field on an average day, but of course the far majority of those are VFR.

I looked at the webcam of the club around noon and saw a follow me car on our little apron and two people in orange hi-viz going into the clubhouse. Was that you, by any chance? Didn't see the Cirrus though - it was probably parked just outside the frame opposite the PH-SVN.

[Fuji Abound]

No, it wasnt me only because I try and avoid the high viz vests! I left that to my friend. :)

We were in the bay directly behind the little apron square in front of the club. It was a left turn as if you were parking directly in front of the club and a few very helpful club members gave us a push back into the bay straight behind.

The lady I spoke to on the 'phone and met behind the desk was brilliant - very helpful, as was the gentlemen who disappeared off with the FP and sorted it our for me.

It is a shame the City has lost so much of its history. I have to say some of the new buildings are architectually very spectacular but I get the feeling the City has lost its heart. A few hours is not long however so to be fair I expect a local such as yourself could show it off in a better light.

[Bottlehead]

Request to "Backpacker"

What date was Mode 'S' made mandatory in Netherlands for VFR Light Planes?
and also when was ELT made mandatory? Does this apply to all non PH registered aircraft or was there a period of grace?

would appreciate the information. As I have booked the fitting of ELT with my annual in Germany.

[Radar]

Big Sand,

Sorry to say I can't furnish the promised info. I got as far as the holding point for 21 here at Maastricht before taying back in with an eletrical anomaly. If I manage the trip in the meantime, I'll keep you posted.

[BackPacker]

Bottlehead, there was no specific date for mode-S. Instead, it became mandatory for IFR flight, then VFR flights above FL65, then FL45 and then 1200'. This happened over a period of years.

The same is true for ELT. It's been mandatory for airliners for god knows how long, and this eventually filtered down to all powered aircraft making international flights.

Wrt. mode-S, there is still an AIC on the Dutch AIS website (AIS Netherlands (http://www.ais-netherlands.nl/)) with the timeline on implementation for both powered and non-powered aircraft. I would not know if the same kind of document exists for ELTs.

[Fuji Abound]

Aeronautical Information Circular Series NETHERLANDS A 07/08 (http://www.ais-netherlands.nl/aim/080522-080703/eAIP/html/eAIC/EH-eAIC-08-07-A-en-GB.html)

The AIP also covers ELTS.

However, you may also be interested in the overloading of the system also addressed in the AIP.

On a recent trip to Rotterdam I had one aircraft which appeared to be only mode A on TCAS and also according to AT.

[Big Sand]

Radar,
Good call mate: " Take off's are optional - landings are mandatory". Thanks for the e-mail. If you do get to Leer please do let me know what it's like. I looked at some feedback on a German GA website and it got very good reviews - if my 'high school German' serves me well? :rolleyes:

All the best.


Big Sand

[Big Sand]

FA,
Thanks for the kind feedback on Rotterdam. Much more cost effective than I had thought. Looking at the Rotterdam Airport website I had been expecting to donate a viable body organ to land there bit 26Euro is very good. Was that the full deal or was there other charges?

If either you or BP are planning to go to Rotterdam again may I suggest a wee drink at the Oude Haven or there is a good street market on Saturday mornings. Delft also has a very nice antiques market on a Saturday morning.

VBR

Big Sand

[Fuji Abound]

Was that the full deal or was there other charges?

The full deal. There was nothing else at all.

Taxi into town about 20E if that is your destination. Best location for the return - taxi rank to the side of the tram station, with the taxi flags flying.

Thank you for the other suggestions.

[BackPacker]

The full deal. There was nothing else at all.

Sure? The landing fee at Rotterdam consists of two parts:
1. The bit that goes to the airport, for maintenance of the runway, taxiways and so forth.
2. The bit that goes to Eurocontrol, who then uses it to pay the guy in the tower.

Fee (1) is a fixed value, based mostly on the weight of the aircraft but may also depend on noise certificate and time of day.

Fee (2) is an incredibly complex value which is actually one fee for landing and another fee for departing. And both fees depend on whether this is a touch-and-go, a local flight, a flight within the Netherlands, or an international flight. There might be a difference VFR/IFR as well.

Within our club people have studied the Eurocontrol regulations long and hard to come up with an accurate and workable solution for billing the hirer straight after the flight. They eventually found out that it was too cumbersome to predict the landing fee for each landing, and charge that to the hirer, unless we started recording a whole lot more information in the logbooks. Instead the club decided to charge a flat fee for every time your wheels hit the runway at Rotterdam. (Cue the usual joke about bouncing...) This is too much for a simple touch-and-go, and too little for an international flight. So sometimes you win, sometimes you lose.

This fee is currently a hair under 20 euros, includes items 1 and 2, but you need to remember that we have a discount agreement with Rotterdam for item 1.

Back to the point. Item 2 is not invoiced by Rotterdam airport, but instead Eurocontrol will invoice you direct, based on your registration. And the invoice will be for a landing and a departure, and the amount will depend on your origin and destination, and possibly some other factors. The good news is that this bill will likely not exceed 15 euros.

At least, that's what I understand from the article that the experts wrote in our clubs magazine about this topic a few months ago.

[bookworm]

Fee (2) is an incredibly complex value which is actually one fee for landing and another fee for departing.

I don't think it's so bad.

AIP for NETHERLANDS (section GEN-4.2) valid from 02 JUL 09 (http://www.ais-netherlands.nl/aim/090521-090702/eAIP/html/eAIP/EH-GEN-4.2-en-GB.html#GEN-4.2)

€ 163.92 * (MTOW / 50)^0.7 per take-off. For training, 4 T&G = 1 T/O.

That's €11 for a 1 ton aircraft, €17 for a 2 ton aircraft.

[Fuji Abound]

Shirley all covered in the exemptions:

et al aircraft less than 2mt are excluded as are all VFR flights (assuming applicable).

Bookie

That's €11 for a 1 ton aircraft, €17 for a 2 ton aircraft.


Have I misunderstood as you imply a charge for aircraft less than 2mt?

[BackPacker]

Have I misunderstood as you imply a charge for aircraft less than 2mt?

Absolutely. Aircraft < 2 ton are exempted from Eurocontrol "en-route" charges. What I am referring to here are Eurocontrol "terminal" charges and <2t is NOT exempted from these in the Netherlands. They apply to ALL aircraft that fly to/from any of the controlled airports in the Netherlands (EHAM, EHRD and a few others).

A search for "Eurocontrol Terminal Charges" deep-links into the Eurocontrol website with lots of info about this.

I don't think it's so bad.

The problem here is that the Netherlands uses one formula (which is rather complex if you're not that good a mathematician) and applies it to departures only (not landings, strangely enough). But other countries are free to implement their own formulas, using their own selection of input parameters. Eurocontrol just applies these formulas and sends the bill.

In the case of our club, when someone flies to or from a foreign country that applies terminal charges through Eurocontrol (Denmark, say) then the hirer pays the airport landing fee direct, but a month later the club gets the Eurocontrol bill. Of course, the club is not happy having to invoice the hirer a month after the fact, and the club does not want to know the way each and every country calculates the terminal charge so that they can invoice the hirer straight away. In other words, the Eurocontrol bill for a specific flight is totally unpredictable unless you record a lot of information and perform a whole series of calculations. So the club just uses an average which covers everything, and this average is adjusted every now and then as new Eurocontrol bills come in.

[Radar]

Fuji,

Forgive me, but I think you may be mixing up this "departure" charge with the more familiar, CRCO collected, route charge, which does indeed exclude aircraft less than 2t.

D.

Edited to say ' Beat me to it, Backpacker'

[Fuji Abound]

I wonder if I will get a small bill? Ah well, I will let you know.

[bookworm]

Have I misunderstood as you imply a charge for aircraft less than 2mt?

The formula does look similar to the enroute charge but it's a distinct charge. The German DFS charge a departure charge in a similar way: the power is 0.5 like the enroute charge for aircraft > 2 tons, and there's a flat fee for < 2 tons. It's collected independently. The NL ATS collects its terminal charges through Eurocontrol's CRCO, the power is 0.7, and as far as I can see there's no flat rate for < 2 tons.

[Big Sand]

BP,
Thanks for the info. I do hope FA doesn't get a 'Dear FA invoice' in the mail ? - let's hope not.

In your experience what do you think a SA Bulldog MTOW 1066Kg would attract at Rotterdam assuming a one touch landing , noise cert etc?.

Actually, the 'Outlaws' are staying with me here in the UK as we speak so the possibility of flying my MOL back to Rotterdam early is looking very appealing. She always seems to be infront of my 'direct flight' to my drinks cabinet at all times of the day and wants to reorganise my entire household. Heeeeeeeeeeeeeeeellllllllllppppppppppppp. :yuk:

VBR

Big Sand:ok:

[Big Sand]

FA,
Talking of 'Bills in the post' get this one. I parked at a service area adjacent to East Mids in the A8 for just over an hour whilst I had a 'courtesy break' (I think the Americans call it?) and a meeting with a customer in the Service area.

About a week later I get a bill in the post saying that the Camera at the parking area noted that I was 10mins over the 2 'free hrs' allowed.

'Whatever' I hear you say. Well, that will be £70 Sterling mate or we take your left Kidney and see you in court.:ouch:

So, I guess the moral of the story is. Rotterdam even with a Dear FA letter sounds better than a East Mids services £5 Medio Americano and a £70 FU letter later?

A trip to Rotterdam to drop my Mother-In -Law off early sounds like a good deal?! :D


Big Sand:ok:

[BackPacker]

Well, you'd better ask Fuji. As I said earlier, at my club we get a discount on the airport landing fee, we get charged an average for the Eurocontrol terminal charges and we do our own handling for free. That, in total, comes down to a hair under 20 euros per landing.

In Fujis case, for a Cirrus, he paid 26 euros in landing, probably around 10 euros for the Eurocontrol terminal charges, and something like 20 euros handling to my club. That's around 56 euros all told.

The one thing you need to be aware of is that my club is not an "official" handler at Rotterdam. The official handlers, Aviapartner and KLM Jet Center, would charge somewhere in the neighbourhood of 90-120 euros for a light single. Until Fuji said he'd been handled by the club, I didn't even know that this was possible. And in any case, taxiway L, which leads to our little out-of-the-way apron, is not suitable for wingspans much larger than that of a PA-28 or C172. So it's by no means guaranteed that you can get handling from the club too, and what the fee would be for that.

Of course you have to weigh that against having your MOL stay around for much longer.:ok:

[Fuji Abound]

In Fujis case, for a Cirrus, he paid 26 euros in landing, probably around 10 euros for the Eurocontrol terminal charges, and something like 20 euros handling to my club. That's around 56 euros all told.

Firstly, I want to make it very clear perhaps I was lucky. I 'phoned the club and they were happy to handle me. They were really friendly and helpful. I have no idea if they made an "exception" of me or whether everyone would be equally welcome.

As to fees, I paid 26E all in and however the fee was split and whoever got a share that was the total cost. It sounds like I may get a fee from Eurocontrol not for on route charges from which I was exempt on the grounds of weight but because Rotterdam is one of the specified airports for terminal charges. So far nothing has turned up but even if it does I am certainly not going to object to an overall 40E.

I would add on the day I was there Rotterdam was remarkably quite - I really do think if there has been a change in policy this is quite right because clearly they should encourage GA as another income stream

[Big Sand]

BP,
Cheers. To summarise the picture is not crystal clear regarding Rotterdam but on a 'good day' and without official handling the charges are pretty reasonable considering the proximity for me for Rotterdam. That said Transavia do a schedule flight out of Luton to Rotterdam that takes abot 50mins and costs about E50.00 so I dare say that put's the whole thing into perspective.

Let's face it though - owning an operating a light aircraft never made 'commercial sense' but it's such bloody good fun and a real privilidge.

BP & FA thanks again for all you kind feedback.

VBR

Big Sand:ok:

[Fuji Abound]

BP - look sorry to be a pain, but it really is not that complicated. If you want to go to Rotterdam give the Club a call, they will tell you the fee and whether they will "handle" you. If you want to go - go. You may get caught for a terminal charge, but all in it really is a bargain for a "big" airport.

As you say it is almost always going to be cheaper to fly commercially.

On the other hand I got to the airport and was airborn in 15 minutes, just over an hour en route and I was in Rotterdam. No pesky airport terminals, just the dedicated services of the customs man who turned up at the club in his jeep for a quick peep of our passports, arrived back at the airport when it suited me and was off the ground and back in England in just over an hour. All in all thats two and a half hours travel time, and I guess no more than 40 minutes at both airports in total. Oh, and we even had in flight refreshments. Thats why we do it .. .. .. I think. :)

If you have got time on your hands and the money matters go scheduled! It has been, and probably always will be, that way.

[Big Sand]

Dear Aviators,
May I and my wing man thank all of you who responded on our plan to fly from Peterbrough - Strade (Germany).

We succesfully completed the trip in Aug and without a hitch thanks to good planning and good up to the minute Wx info.

We did the trip in a 2 ship formation of Bulldogs and took turns in leading each leg of the journey.

Day 1 one we flew EGSF via DET, LDD , Boulogne harbour to LFAT.

Day 2 LFAT - EDLN via BNN VOR and between the Brussels and Antwerp zones to Monchengladbach

Day 3 EDLN - HMM - OSN - EGSH (Stade). We refuelled at EDXQ (Rotenburg) as Stade had no AVGAS.

So what did we learn from the trip?


Buy current maps and airfield guides.
Plan well ahead.
Plan your fuel and diversions. Boring but vital!
PPR
Have access to up to the minute Weather info - use it and don't second guess it.
Enjoy the journey.I have to say that German GA alive and thriving. The FIS service and airfield APP and TWR ATC were second to none and could have not been more helpful. Monchengladbach (EDLN) for an International airfield were fantastic and cannot sign their praises highly enough. Landing and parking fees were on a par with local GA in the UK but AVGAS was a little pricey.

The Transit from LFAT to Monchengladbach is tricky but obviously 'do able'. Max alt 1500ft means good vis is essential. If you think the Manchester low level corridor is busy then try this.That said don't let it put you off!

A word of caution. Be careful on the Kokseide restricted areas on the way from LFAT via the BNE VOR North. Lille FIS will want to know you are aware of these and for good reason. Take a careful look at the route before flying it.

The FIS services along the route and particularly in Germany were excellent and do speak excellent English. Remember at low altitudes your radio may be less effective so speak clearly and in plain English - these guys (and gals) want to help and are happy you call!

Thanks to all from PPrune that gave helpful advice and tips before our trip. We were well prepared and whilst we were never treated to a ramp check we were prepared in case we got one. There's a big friendly GA Europe out there if it's well planned for and is treated with due respect. We are well trained in the UK and certainly on frequency the Brits on the whole executed their calls amongst the best we heard.

If you are thinking about a European trip - live the dream. It's very GA friendly and with good planning a trip of a life time.

PS: When re entering the UK remember the Customs form as well as your flight plan. :ugh:Thankfully our PPR to our home airfield reminded us!:ugh:

Happy and safe flying

Big Sand:ok: