Any tips on Flying EGSF to EDHS
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Any tips on Flying EGSF to EDHS
A friend and I are planning a two ship Bulldog formation from EGSF (Peterborough Connington) to EDHS Stade (W.Germany) in August 2009.
We would really appreciate any tips, suggestions from those more experienced in flying VFR in Continental Europe. Any good airfields en route worth dropping into?. What weather services can be obtained via the internet or volumet en route?. Any helpful tips on useful ATC services to use would also be greatly appreciated. Any specific regulations we need to be aware of when stopping in Belguim & Germany?
What's the best charts and VFR guides to buy for the trip?
Notionally, we had though a route like:
EGSF - EGSR - DET -DVR -LFAK - EBKH - RKN -WSR -EDSH (What do you think?)
Many thanks
Big Sand
We would really appreciate any tips, suggestions from those more experienced in flying VFR in Continental Europe. Any good airfields en route worth dropping into?. What weather services can be obtained via the internet or volumet en route?. Any helpful tips on useful ATC services to use would also be greatly appreciated. Any specific regulations we need to be aware of when stopping in Belguim & Germany?
What's the best charts and VFR guides to buy for the trip?
Notionally, we had though a route like:
EGSF - EGSR - DET -DVR -LFAK - EBKH - RKN -WSR -EDSH (What do you think?)
Many thanks
Big Sand
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Big Sand
I think you mean EDHS in the last line of your route?
You seem to be going a very long way around. Coasting out at Harwich gives a crossing no longer than going to the CIs but cuts a significant time off the journey. Are you keen to make the shortest crossing?
I think you mean EDHS in the last line of your route?
You seem to be going a very long way around. Coasting out at Harwich gives a crossing no longer than going to the CIs but cuts a significant time off the journey. Are you keen to make the shortest crossing?
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FA,
Many thanks for spotting the last ICAO code in the intended route. Yes, it is EDHS.
The idea was for a narrow Channel crossing if possible which does make it a bit longer. We have very good sea survival kit on both aircraft but I would rather not put it to the test.
That said how what route would you suggest?
Very best regards
Big Sand
Many thanks for spotting the last ICAO code in the intended route. Yes, it is EDHS.
The idea was for a narrow Channel crossing if possible which does make it a bit longer. We have very good sea survival kit on both aircraft but I would rather not put it to the test.
That said how what route would you suggest?
Very best regards
Big Sand
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I'd route Harwich COA for a crossing of only just over 20 nm and a route saving of 40 nm, which would be worthwhile. You can make the crossing at FL55, the same as the English Channel. Obvioulsy on the day weather might be a factor and help determine the route.
Holland and Germany are easy as is the rest of the route. You will get an excellent service and chances are a clearance through whatever you like, so dont be put off by the map, just make sure you are familair with it.
Make sure you check on the need for a nosie certificate at Stade - the Germans can be most particular.
I have never been to Stade but the rest of the route is straightforward with, not surprisingly, very little high ground. Coming back across Holland last time I decided to enjoy the scenery and remain VFR and managed the whole route at about 1,500 feet below an "angry" base. Great scenery, if not too everyones taste, and you can see for miles.
Enjoy!!
Holland and Germany are easy as is the rest of the route. You will get an excellent service and chances are a clearance through whatever you like, so dont be put off by the map, just make sure you are familair with it.
Make sure you check on the need for a nosie certificate at Stade - the Germans can be most particular.
I have never been to Stade but the rest of the route is straightforward with, not surprisingly, very little high ground. Coming back across Holland last time I decided to enjoy the scenery and remain VFR and managed the whole route at about 1,500 feet below an "angry" base. Great scenery, if not too everyones taste, and you can see for miles.
Enjoy!!
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Just to add, having had a second look, I would even consider EGSD dct EHTX for a crossing of only 40 nm but a route saving of 120 nm. With a total route distance of 360 nm it becomes a pleasant single hop trip as opposed to a slog presumably on the limits of your endurance and possibly more.
I am possibly more adverse than the next man to sea crossings in a single but 40 nm really is not too bad particulary if you can get high and I think for a saving of 120 miles well worth considering. It also keeps you well away from all the jolly trippers down sarth doing the L2K run.
For me it would only be 15 minutes over the sea and a total trip time of just over 2 hours so I probably wouldnt give it a second thought.
Be interested in what you think.
I am possibly more adverse than the next man to sea crossings in a single but 40 nm really is not too bad particulary if you can get high and I think for a saving of 120 miles well worth considering. It also keeps you well away from all the jolly trippers down sarth doing the L2K run.
For me it would only be 15 minutes over the sea and a total trip time of just over 2 hours so I probably wouldnt give it a second thought.
Be interested in what you think.
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Sorry, to answer the rest of the question if you take the last route you will probably only end up speaking to Dutch Mil 132.35, Leeuwarden App 122.100 and Eelde 118.70. Any of the charts will do as take your fancy.
You could drop into Leer if you want to break the journey - give them a call to check on fees as I have not been there before but heard it is pleasant enough. Perhaps Backpacker will know more.
You could drop into Leer if you want to break the journey - give them a call to check on fees as I have not been there before but heard it is pleasant enough. Perhaps Backpacker will know more.
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Leer is in Belgium and I've never been there so no comment...
What's the typical range of a Bulldog? If you can fly EGSF to EDHS direct you won't be getting any tips from me about refueling stops. But if you do need to refuel in Holland, I recommend either EHMZ (if you take the southern routing) or EHTX (if you fly direct). Both have customs (but do check PN requirements) so that takes care of those formalities.
Furthermore, apart from the water crossing, do you prefer to fly high or low? Fly anywhere near EHAM and you'll be forced below 1300'. Some like it that way, some don't.
What's the typical range of a Bulldog? If you can fly EGSF to EDHS direct you won't be getting any tips from me about refueling stops. But if you do need to refuel in Holland, I recommend either EHMZ (if you take the southern routing) or EHTX (if you fly direct). Both have customs (but do check PN requirements) so that takes care of those formalities.
Furthermore, apart from the water crossing, do you prefer to fly high or low? Fly anywhere near EHAM and you'll be forced below 1300'. Some like it that way, some don't.
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<P>BP,</P>
<P> Thanks, got mode Charlie only but the other Bulldog does have mode - Sierra. I dare say he could lead and as leader would be the only aircraft with the transponder live.</P>
<P> </P>
<P>What are the level restrictions you refer to as I am still awaiting the Jeppesen's back order on the maps. Pity the don't tell you that when you order them?! <IMG alt=0 src="http://www.pprune.org/forums/images/smilies2/eusa_wall.gif" border=0 smilieid="18"></P>
<P> </P>
<P>Cheers</P>
<P> </P>
<P> </P>
<P>Big Sand</P>
<P> Thanks, got mode Charlie only but the other Bulldog does have mode - Sierra. I dare say he could lead and as leader would be the only aircraft with the transponder live.</P>
<P> </P>
<P>What are the level restrictions you refer to as I am still awaiting the Jeppesen's back order on the maps. Pity the don't tell you that when you order them?! <IMG alt=0 src="http://www.pprune.org/forums/images/smilies2/eusa_wall.gif" border=0 smilieid="18"></P>
<P> </P>
<P>Cheers</P>
<P> </P>
<P> </P>
<P>Big Sand</P>
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FA,
Many thanks for the response - greatly appreciated. The 'old dog' does have a noise cert and thanks for the head's up - I will check it's in the doc pack.
Low level across Holland sounds pretty good to me my wife's Dutch so I have seen a fair bit of it already.
If I come across any points of interest in the Germany Ex I will happily feed these back.
All the best and thanks again.
Happy flying.
Big Sand
Many thanks for the response - greatly appreciated. The 'old dog' does have a noise cert and thanks for the head's up - I will check it's in the doc pack.
Low level across Holland sounds pretty good to me my wife's Dutch so I have seen a fair bit of it already.
If I come across any points of interest in the Germany Ex I will happily feed these back.
All the best and thanks again.
Happy flying.
Big Sand
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Hi Back P,
Thanks for the feedback. Typical Bulldog range max 3.5hrs but under 4 gals a side the 1970's fuel meter can be a bit dicky. Also flying in formation the following aircraft is always going to have a higher fuel burn.
Let's say 2.5hrs with a 45min divert is 'comfortable'.
Regards low level, not a major issue as long as we have an accurate pressure and good visibility and the leader has a good fix on the charts. I dare say the airspace is going to mean a lot of low level or 'get lucky' with a controller with a lower work load.
Most important is that it's safe and legal. Then I am sure we will 'enjoy the ride'.
Thanks for taking the time to feedback - much appreciated!
VBR
Big Sand
Thanks for the feedback. Typical Bulldog range max 3.5hrs but under 4 gals a side the 1970's fuel meter can be a bit dicky. Also flying in formation the following aircraft is always going to have a higher fuel burn.
Let's say 2.5hrs with a 45min divert is 'comfortable'.
Regards low level, not a major issue as long as we have an accurate pressure and good visibility and the leader has a good fix on the charts. I dare say the airspace is going to mean a lot of low level or 'get lucky' with a controller with a lower work load.
Most important is that it's safe and legal. Then I am sure we will 'enjoy the ride'.
Thanks for taking the time to feedback - much appreciated!
VBR
Big Sand
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FA,
Had a better look at the route via EHTX from Beccles EGSM. The sea crossing at 123nm maybe a wee bit long for us. Despite having full military emersion suits and lifepreservers with ELB's etc etc I just hate the thought of that Lycoming 4 banger going pop. That said we regularly do the Caernarfon - IOM crossing so are used to more than 30mins over water.
Anyway your suggestions on EHTX and EHMZ really made me think as it would make the route easier and shorter.
Cheers FA - food for thought
Big Sand.
Had a better look at the route via EHTX from Beccles EGSM. The sea crossing at 123nm maybe a wee bit long for us. Despite having full military emersion suits and lifepreservers with ELB's etc etc I just hate the thought of that Lycoming 4 banger going pop. That said we regularly do the Caernarfon - IOM crossing so are used to more than 30mins over water.
Anyway your suggestions on EHTX and EHMZ really made me think as it would make the route easier and shorter.
Cheers FA - food for thought
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Took a more detailed look.
If you prefer a short crossing, recommend you cross DVR-KOK, fly along the coast to COA, then simply follow the rivers "Maas" and "Waal" (at your option). Near Arnhem head direct for RKN, cross the EHTW CTR and head for WSR. This route will take you very near EHMZ where you can refuel and say hello to customs. They also have a decent restaurant - there was a thread about EHMZ and its restaurant a few weeks ago on here.
After COA, another option is to fly visually over Zeeland to Dordrecht and then head for PAM. This is the bit where you have to stay < 1300' due to the Schiphol TMA and SRZ (check the NOTAMs for what the Schiphol SRZ is!). After PAM head about 070-ish, mind the EHLE ATZ/SRZ and head for WSR. This is very convenient if you want to fill up at EHLE.
Personally I find EHLE a bit boring but they have good facilities, including customs (check PN requirements) and an excellent restaurant (Flantula - on top of the Martinair building). They also have the highest landing fees in the Netherlands for what is essentially an uncontrolled field. Do read up on the approach procedures for EHLE though!
And of course if you cross direct, EHTX comes highly recommended. Very friendly, well maintained grass field with a good restaurant and a great atmosphere. It's got a hotel on-site too.
Another option to consider for the crossing is CLN-HSD by the way. That keeps you out of the busy airspace around London but is still a relatively short crossing.
As for your mode-C transponder in the Netherlands: the general rule is that if you're flying single ship, then your mode-C counts for nothing: without mode-S you have to have it switched off, and are limited to the airspace below 1200'. For a formation, I have not seen any rules whatsoever. I recommend you call the guys at the LVNL (the Dutch NATS) to explain your situation. They'll probably don't mind you flying formation with a mode-S equipped aircraft above 1200', and they probably wouldn't mind you flying single ship with just mode C too, as long as they know beforehand. Homepage - OPS help desk LVNL
If you prefer a short crossing, recommend you cross DVR-KOK, fly along the coast to COA, then simply follow the rivers "Maas" and "Waal" (at your option). Near Arnhem head direct for RKN, cross the EHTW CTR and head for WSR. This route will take you very near EHMZ where you can refuel and say hello to customs. They also have a decent restaurant - there was a thread about EHMZ and its restaurant a few weeks ago on here.
After COA, another option is to fly visually over Zeeland to Dordrecht and then head for PAM. This is the bit where you have to stay < 1300' due to the Schiphol TMA and SRZ (check the NOTAMs for what the Schiphol SRZ is!). After PAM head about 070-ish, mind the EHLE ATZ/SRZ and head for WSR. This is very convenient if you want to fill up at EHLE.
Personally I find EHLE a bit boring but they have good facilities, including customs (check PN requirements) and an excellent restaurant (Flantula - on top of the Martinair building). They also have the highest landing fees in the Netherlands for what is essentially an uncontrolled field. Do read up on the approach procedures for EHLE though!
And of course if you cross direct, EHTX comes highly recommended. Very friendly, well maintained grass field with a good restaurant and a great atmosphere. It's got a hotel on-site too.
Another option to consider for the crossing is CLN-HSD by the way. That keeps you out of the busy airspace around London but is still a relatively short crossing.
As for your mode-C transponder in the Netherlands: the general rule is that if you're flying single ship, then your mode-C counts for nothing: without mode-S you have to have it switched off, and are limited to the airspace below 1200'. For a formation, I have not seen any rules whatsoever. I recommend you call the guys at the LVNL (the Dutch NATS) to explain your situation. They'll probably don't mind you flying formation with a mode-S equipped aircraft above 1200', and they probably wouldn't mind you flying single ship with just mode C too, as long as they know beforehand. Homepage - OPS help desk LVNL
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Big Sand,
Just a small correction on Backpackers post. Leer, as suggested earlier, is in Germany (just over the Dutch / German border from Groningen). It is 1200m of tarmac and has avgas. If you consider it as a stopping off spot on the direct crossing to EHTX, I'm heading that way on Sunday and I'll get the relevant gen for you.
Just a small correction on Backpackers post. Leer, as suggested earlier, is in Germany (just over the Dutch / German border from Groningen). It is 1200m of tarmac and has avgas. If you consider it as a stopping off spot on the direct crossing to EHTX, I'm heading that way on Sunday and I'll get the relevant gen for you.
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Back P,
Super information and thanks again for taking the time to respond in depth - especially on the transponder details. We will certainly give the Dutch NATS a bell just to touchbase and particularly as we are flying two military marked aircraft in close formation over foreign soil.
I am away from base at the moment but will check out the route more thoroughly when I get back home.
Any idea on where we can get Met info / Notams en route?. We will have WIFI capable laptops with us for planning. Any idea on Volumet and any useful websites you could suggest?
Very best regards,
Big Sand
Super information and thanks again for taking the time to respond in depth - especially on the transponder details. We will certainly give the Dutch NATS a bell just to touchbase and particularly as we are flying two military marked aircraft in close formation over foreign soil.
I am away from base at the moment but will check out the route more thoroughly when I get back home.
Any idea on where we can get Met info / Notams en route?. We will have WIFI capable laptops with us for planning. Any idea on Volumet and any useful websites you could suggest?
Very best regards,
Big Sand
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Radar,
That's very kind of you. From what BackP says EHTX also sounds like a nice wee place to drop into.
Since my wife's Dutch it would also be useful to sound out a few places in Holland for the future. It's a real pity that Rotterdam Airport has clamped down on GA. That would be idea for visiting the 'Outlaws'. Is there any cheaper way into Rotterdam nowaday's perhaps via the flying club? Or has most GA moved out?.
Info on Leer would be greatly appreciated. Happy to feedback any good info from our trip to EDHS in due course.
Many thanks
VBR
Big Sand
That's very kind of you. From what BackP says EHTX also sounds like a nice wee place to drop into.
Since my wife's Dutch it would also be useful to sound out a few places in Holland for the future. It's a real pity that Rotterdam Airport has clamped down on GA. That would be idea for visiting the 'Outlaws'. Is there any cheaper way into Rotterdam nowaday's perhaps via the flying club? Or has most GA moved out?.
Info on Leer would be greatly appreciated. Happy to feedback any good info from our trip to EDHS in due course.
Many thanks
VBR
Big Sand
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Laptops are fine but a pain for a trip such as this. I reckon you are just as well off with weather on your mobile from YAWS - you have everything you want there from METARS to TAFS to European Sferics and weather radar, albeit I guess on the outbound leg you will have a look at Avbrief for the synoptics before you go. For anywhere in Europe the NATS narrow route briefing still seems to be the best source.
To keep things in context it is only a three hour or so hour flight across pretty benign country side - I think it unlikely the weather will be that marginal but more likely to prove the trip is clearly possible or clearly impossible.
If you are not instrument rated then the longer sea crossing could be an issue if the conditions so dictate but then again even on good VMC days there may not be much of an horizon over the English Channel and you are out of sight of land for long enough that some basic instrument skills are useful.
(Edited to add: If you end up going in marginal conditions or the conditions become marginal you will find the services from Belgium Mil and Brussels (if you go that way) first rate. I have never had an issue with their passing me en route weather for where ever I want and once when not equipted to go IFR was working my way around Brussels and through their approach to avoid weather with their full co-operation and help - a really first rate service.
FWIW I get the impression you have never flown in that part of the world before which was one reason I was keen to help. Dont be daunted (as you might well be from a first look at the chart) the AT services are amazing, they will help you through the airspace if needed and they really are first rate - I might almost say they put us to shame, but then again if you know how to ask our lot arent too bad, and maybe they are even better if you come over as a jolly foreigner.
To keep things in context it is only a three hour or so hour flight across pretty benign country side - I think it unlikely the weather will be that marginal but more likely to prove the trip is clearly possible or clearly impossible.
If you are not instrument rated then the longer sea crossing could be an issue if the conditions so dictate but then again even on good VMC days there may not be much of an horizon over the English Channel and you are out of sight of land for long enough that some basic instrument skills are useful.
(Edited to add: If you end up going in marginal conditions or the conditions become marginal you will find the services from Belgium Mil and Brussels (if you go that way) first rate. I have never had an issue with their passing me en route weather for where ever I want and once when not equipted to go IFR was working my way around Brussels and through their approach to avoid weather with their full co-operation and help - a really first rate service.
FWIW I get the impression you have never flown in that part of the world before which was one reason I was keen to help. Dont be daunted (as you might well be from a first look at the chart) the AT services are amazing, they will help you through the airspace if needed and they really are first rate - I might almost say they put us to shame, but then again if you know how to ask our lot arent too bad, and maybe they are even better if you come over as a jolly foreigner.
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FA,
Cheers - some good points made. I am always mindful of the Wx and for peace of mind always like to have a good idea what to expect. Okay, that's never an exact science with Wx.
Certainly, keeping the kit to a minimum will be important but unfortunately for business I dare say a Blackberry and LapTop may end up sneaking into the kit bag for the trip.
Thanks again
Big Sand
Cheers - some good points made. I am always mindful of the Wx and for peace of mind always like to have a good idea what to expect. Okay, that's never an exact science with Wx.
Certainly, keeping the kit to a minimum will be important but unfortunately for business I dare say a Blackberry and LapTop may end up sneaking into the kit bag for the trip.
Thanks again
Big Sand
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Is there any cheaper way into Rotterdam nowaday's perhaps via the flying club?
Handling is mandatory and the Vliegclub Rotterdam (of which I'm a member) nor the RAC are officially allowed to offer you handling services - you need to go to the KLM JetCenter or Aviapartner. Exceptions to mandatory handling are only made for people who are either member of the Vliegclub or have an appointment with the Vliegclub.
If you have a WiFi laptop you can use the normal sources for WX, NOTAMS and Flight Plans. (Note that FPLs are mandatory when you cross a FIR boundary!)
Here's what I typically use, but do note that I'm a Netherlands resident and I might be entitled to services that you are not entitled to:
Netherlands Aviation weather (public site, in Dutch but you should be able to find the Low Level Forecast, METAR and TAF keywords in the right hand column): KNMI Luchtvaartmeteorologie. You can also call the KNMI and get a meteorologist on the phone to provide additional information to the TAFs and METARs. Phone numbers for VFR and IFR are in the AIP, but note that they're not exactly cheap.
Loads of weather information from lots of sources: Wetter : Wetterzentrale : Top Karten and an interactive loop on 21st Operational Weather Squadron
NOTAMs, AIP information: From the Eurocontrol site: https://www.ead.eurocontrol.int/
NOTAMs can also be found on the http://www.homebriefing.nl site (registration required)
Flight plans: Can be entered on the http://www.homebriefing.nl site. Or phone them in. The FIO telephone numbers are in the AIP or Jeppesen.