Spins and Engine Failures Solo Practice

[Jumbo744]

Hello,

I would like the opinions of flight instructors on this. My school has no problems sending students to practice spins and engine failures solo. I am wondering if this is a good idea. For engine failures, what if the student choses a field with power lines, or cables he doesn't see, what if he forgets to warm his engine, many things can go wrong if he lacks of situational awareness. Same for spins I would say.

Aren't those 2 exercises just much safer when with 2 people on board?

:ok:

[what next]

Hello!

I am wondering if this is a good idea.Luckily, the authorities in my part of the world have decided for me, regarding this question: Descending below 500ft for practice forced landings is only permitted during flight training for licensing purposes and only with an instructor on board. But our students have to practise (and demonstrate) forced landings solo from 2000 ft above an aerodrome.

As for spins, those have been removed from flight training (dual and solo) long before my time. And that was really long ago, because I'm not so young anymore. So probably they can only be practised solo because there are no instructors around who are current in spins ;)

Greetings, Max

[Jumbo744]

Hello,

thanks for the reply.

For the engine failure exercise, I had an Instructor with who I would go really really low, like 100 feet, and once, even less: i remember asking him ''are we landing on that field or what??''.

That 500 feet is a good rule. We had a accident last month where the instructor and student were killed. They hit power lines over a river....

Here in Canada, we have to spin the aircraft for the commercial flight test.
I understand it is good to know and practice the recovery, but why would we learn how to put the aircraft in a spin? I always thought that this should be for the Instructor Rating as they have to demonstrate it to the students. But why is it on the syllabus for the Commercial Training?

[darn]

Sounds like a recipe for disaster - I've never heard of any school allowing this.

Aside from the obvious dangers, if there're by themselves who's going to tell them where there're going wrong or how to improve?

[MarkerInbound]

Makes life easy. "I think I'll have... an ....engine ........failure ........NOW!"

[Duchess_Driver]

...of whether your school allows it or not, never forget....

IF IT IS A STUDENT SOLO - THEY AREN'T ALONE, THEY'RE FLYING WITH YOUR LICENCE ON BOARD AND WITH YOUR AUTHORITY/SIGNATURE.

If your not comfortable with it, don't authorise the flight. Simples....

IMHO - not comfortable with the idea (in general).

...because there are no instructors around who are current in spins

As part of the UK FI course, an instructor has to demonstrate spin recovery - and every second renewal/revalidation will be via a flight test, therefore - you're only ever a maximum of 6 years away from your last spin. If you're an aeros instructor......

[Cows getting bigger]

UK based instructor.

Spins - no chance. I'll insist on being there for that sort of stuff. (I'm current on spins - something I do as a demo with most stalling flights if the student is receptive to the idea)
Stalls - maybe. But only clean stalls.
PFLs - Over the airfield, OK. Off airfield, not below 500ft agl and then only in a designated area.

Yep, Duchess is absolutely right. My student is flying on my licence.

[VFE]

This my student is flying on my licence thing.... surely they are flying on their own medical certificate with your authority as their instructor, or are you merely highlighting how you personally perceive the situation in terms of your own conscience? Students do make mistakes when out solo and it's a rare scenario indeed where the instructor loses his licence over it. I only know one FI who allegedly lost his FI rating over a student error and that was only a rumour...

As for the above question - we don't teach spin recovery on a JAR PPL so it's not applicable as far as my job goes. I encourage solo PFL's in our training area, but not below 500ft. In fact solo PFL's are recommended where I work as a way of building solo time in the local area, as indeed are advanced turns. All exercises both dual and solo should be stated in the remarks section of the students logbook. As an aside here, when applying for an FI restriction removal the CAA like to see evidence of the applicant instructor having authorised a variety of different solo student exercises apart from the usual 12/13 and 18A.

VFE.

[Jumbo744]

Hello all!

thanks so much for the replies. At least now I know I am not crazy.

I'm a student pilot, 132h of flight, now reviewing for the CPL flight test. When I talked about it with my instructor, and some students at the school, they had a very macho reaction like 'what are you scared of? YOU HAVE TO practice, blabla'.

So when my instructor tells me to go to the zone and practice spins and engine failures, I'm not doing it. I do steep turns, diversion, precautionary landing on the airport chosen for my diversion and that's it.

Thanks!

[morgant6911]

I'm an FAA CFI, and NO WAY would I allow either one of these. It is just a recipe for disaster. They can practice engine outs with me on board, and really, I see no reason for a student pilot to "practice" spins, either solo or with me. In the past, I have demonstrated a spin to private pilot students, but in time, I quit doing this as well.

[redout]

Why one would want to practice a Spin solo is beyond me. With an instructor yes by all means but never solo. Agree with several of the above posters - recipe for disaster. Always be aware of the recovery technique though. The PFL I cant really see a problem with whilst solo once it is in a quiet non-built up area with little traffic. The chances of getting a real PFL whilst solo maybe quite low but still most likely higher than encountering a spin.

[flyndad]

Not required for the PPL syllabus here in Canada, only Commercial and Instructor training. Some PPL students will ask for a demo and I have no problems with this, some will also want to attempt a recovery again no big concerns. I believe we should be demonstrating and teaching more of the prevention aspect. A lot of spin accidents occur when turning base to final not at altitude.
We should also place more of an emphasis on engine failures on takeoff and again not so much at altitude. Numerous fatal accidents occur each year after attempts to turn back to the field after an engine quits because of lack of altitude. Prevention is way better than cure.

[SNS3Guppy]

If a student has been thoroughly schooled in spinning an aircraft and is in an aircraft capable and equipped for spins (to include parachutes), that's one thing...but the student, particularly a student who hadn't reached his or her initial pilot certification yet...shouldn't generally be sent to do spins or off field landings by himself or herself.

I do believe in showing these things to a student and instructing the student, and I believe a student who hasn't been shown and hasn't made off field landings has been done a big disservice. No one should ever experience their first forced landing on their own...by the time it happens to them, it should be familiar because they've already been there with an instructor.

[Donalk]

'So when my instructor tells me to go to the zone and practice spins and engine failures, I'm not doing it. I do steep turns, diversion, precautionary landing on the airport chosen for my diversion and that's it.'

So in essence you are displaying a high standard of airmanship and correct decision making processes. I believe I would rather fly with you than with your instructor.

[RTN11]

I see no reason why you would want to practice spins, unless doing an FI course, or practicing for aerobatics.

As for PFLs, I have practiced this many times on my own, or with passengers on board. The main problem with a student doing it would be forgetting to warm the engine, or advancing the throttle too violently on the go around causing a real engine failure.

There is also the 500' rule to be aware of, which is fine if you've got an instructor next to you keeping an eye on it but not so good when you're on your own and also trying to fly the plane.

If you're not comfortable practicing something on your own, it's probably an indication that you need to practice it more with an instructor.

[OneIn60rule]

Is if you went solo and practiced stalls.

I could never imagine letting or asking someone to go out and do SPINS.


Where I originally did my PPL we would go for some GH and among the items we'd do steep turns and stalls.

1/60

[poina]

What reason would a student have for practicing emergency landings? Is he able to evaluate and critique his decisions? That's the instructor's area of responsibility, and should be introduced early in training in conjunction with perhaps turns around a point to show the student how to judge wind direction.
As far as spins, definitely should be demonstrated after being explained prior to flight.
One of the very best maneuvers that will have a big impact on instrument flying skills is slow flight, straight ahead to start with and then introducing standard rate timed turns along with 500 fpm climbs and descents. From this maneuver is a great place to kick some rudder and induce a spin, you will get a real good look at your trainee. For him to practice spins solo, NO WAY

[Ian the Aviator]

OK, it's been a while since I was instructing, but for what it's worth.....

ALL of my PPL students were exposed to some spinning - even if it was only a demo - just so they could see how fast things could go wrong. Some students wanted to go futher and I was happy to spin with them and let them do the recovery - some had one demo and never wanted to see a spin again....

I would NEVER suggest that ANY PPL student went off solo to practice spinning -

The same applies to PEF - I encouraged the students to think about the 'what ifs' - field selection, where they would go if it all went horribly quiet up front, what there action whould be, etc, etc but I wouldn't encourage them to practice without an instructor sat next to them.....

Unless things have changed a lot since I left instructing, I would keep to the same rules now....

[jamestkirk]

Students practising spins and PFL's solo! What a barmy idea.

Especially spins!!!

I would like to remove the windscreen of that insructors car. So when he/she drives home, reality can come flooding in.

[MaintainYourHeading]

I have about 100 hours teaching spins... unfortunately I do not have a choice, the country I am flying in requires CPL to be taught on spin entry and recovery !!
However ... most countries around the world already took the spin training out of the mandatory training subjects for the purpose of licensing !!! Most of the fatalities (during training) happen while practicing stalls and entering intentional or unintentional spinning ... and 90% of those while the instructor is on board !!!!!!!!

I have scared myself in spins before and will unfortunately continue to do so. Practicing spins if it is not mandatory is NOT A GOOD IDEA !!! And of course with that it is obvious it is even worse when a low experience student pilot tries on his own.

Engine failures is the same... most of the flight school around the world will include in their operation manuals or SOPs "no engine failure practice during solo flights". This is so for obvious reasons. The reason an instructor practices engine failures with a student is for the student to be ready in case it happens for real during his solo flight !!!!! Not for the student to know how to simulate and practice it by himself

There are many more subjects to practice other than engine failures and spins during solo flights ... subjects that can bring a lot more to a student pilot's experience.

safety is the most important factor while flying... if it doesn't sound right chances are it is not !

cheers

Julien

[jb5000]

I did the CTC Wings course and as part of the NZ PPL we had, at a guess 15-20 hours of solo GH time, in the local area.

The vast majority of the solo GH time was spent practicing PFLs and the complete stalling package. Steep turns for 20 hours would get fairly tedious! Navigation (both dual and solo) came after, at about 40 hours into the PPL.

I have no problem in practicing solo all of the GH manoeuvres that you are supposed to demonstrate on your test. You don't (or rather, shouldn't) need an instructor to critique every aspect of every PFL if you have been taught how to do it properly to start with. Of course the solo time was built around some more dual instruction but this was where you could hopefully demonstrate how your technique is improving with continued practice. The instructor could then offer more advice and improvements for you to work on solo.

We did 3 hours of dual aerobatics / spinning / UA recoveries and practicing that as a solo student is potentially the most ludicrous idea I've ever heard!

[kme]

Looks to me like we reached a fairly unanimous conclusion by now. Anybody against?

[Jumbo744]

wow I thought this thread had died and never checked back....
Thanks eveybody for you inputs and great posts :ok:

[172_driver]

I sent a student for his first unsupervised solo a couple of weeks ago. Due to nationality, this lad had certain language problems. I (tried) to make very clear to him that NO STALLS this flight... just make yourself comfortable flying around yourself and you can practice some slow flight (no less than 65 kts) and steep turns if you'd like.

Post flight I told him to write some comments in his training records about things he did good and what he could improve to next time. When I read his notes my heart stopped for a few seconds... "POWER ON STALLS... not very good". :\:\

[Jumbo744]

LOL!

I think instructors have a lot of responsabilities to assume. I would be sleepless as an instructor to send a student solo, really I'd be very nervous until he comes back.

[excrab]

If you have taught a pilot spinning, then why not allow them to go out and practise it solo?

If you are worried that they will do something unsafe then maybe you should have taught it a bit more thoroughly - it doesn't seem to worry people that if a student is sent off to practise solo stalling/slow flight and gets it wrong they could possibly end up in a spin anyway, having never even seen one under the JAR syllabus. Do we as instructors not have a moral duty to ensure that by the time a PPL is issued the holder should be able to cope with any manouevers included in the POH (with the possible exception of aerobatics as they are unlikely to happen accidently)?

[172_driver]

I have sent students for checkrides that they passed without problems. I've seen the same students cock up and almost destroy an aircraft (on landing) many hours after they got their PPL.

Personally, I've no faith in my students that they can consistently perform all maneuvers to an acceptable standard. Therefore I am bit reluctant sending them off for critical maneuvers that could easily kill them if they do something wrong (e.g. spinning). Of course, this lack of faith grows away as they gain more and more experience. But still, I would never send off a student for spinning.

Power-off landings I feel OK with, but I prefer if they stop 1000 ft GND abeam their touchdown point. As they gain experience I can let them go lower and start the base turn (500 ft min of course) to let them see if they would make it down. What I am afraid of is that they pull back too much and get low on speed close to ground.

[Kerosine]

I suppose the main consideration is danger/risk of maneouvre vs learning benifit.

Performing a bad steep turn means perhaps some altitude/bank/balance deviation. A bad PFL means going around knowing you would not have made the field. A bad spin recovery means you crash and burn.

It doesn't seem worth it to me.

[jamestkirk]

If you have taught a pilot spinning, then why not allow them to go out and practise it solo?

If you are worried that they will do something unsafe then maybe you should have taught it a bit more thoroughly

NO,NO,NO.

First thing, they are not pilots yet, they are student pilots with minimal experience. And thats the word that means everything, experience. Even after passing your PPL, your still learning the basics. We give them enough experience to learn and build on thier skills. A spin is an advanced manouvre and needs technique as well as competance. Maybe in time they can go up again and have a dedicated lesson and then have some fun. At PPL level you are teaching them the basics of recovery.

Best thing is for new PPL'ers to master landing in crosswinds, navigation etc. which are much more use on a day to day basis.

How many people here have inadvertantly spun an aircraft due to lack of concentration. Now how many have been lost or made a pants crosswind landing etc. For me, the first one never but I still do the last one from time to time.

There was probably a reason why its not compulsory on the PPL syllabus!! (UK before someone pipes up about living somewhere else)

I cannot believe that FI's want to send students up, spinning solo. But there is always one (generally more).

[Intercepted]

I did my ppl skills test last week and as most students I felt really nervous.

One part I felt really confident with though was stall recoveries and the compulsory pfl.

I believe that this was down to the simple fact that I have spent a lot of time on doing them, both with my instructor and solo.

I can't really see why I shouldn't have been allowed to do stall training as a solo student. I'm sure my instructor wouldn't have authorised me to do them if he wouldn't have had the confidence in my ability to recover in a safe manner.

I believe a good instructor can judge the individual student and make appropriate decisions about what this student is capable of doing or not. By leting a student do things solo that he\she is capable of is very good for confidence, something that can't be bad when it comes to flying.

Doing a lot of stall training, slow flight on the back of the curve etc. at 4000' dual or solo is in my opinion not a bad thing. It made me to understand and appreciate fully what risks we have to be aware of in the takeoff and landing.

[jamestkirk]

I believe that this was down to the simple fact that I have spent a lot of time on doing them, both with my instructor and solo.

How long exactly is in your log book for that exercise.

[Intercepted]

I spent 50 hours on my training before the skills test, so the words "a lot" has to be put in this context. I should probably have used a different wording.

I don't have the log book with me at the moment, since it's with the caa, but I know I spent more time on this exercise than many other students, usually adding in stalls, slow flight, pfls etc. between other exercises.

I don't really buy the fact that many students are taught stall recovery once or twice and when asked:

Q: Did you do a fully developed stall with power and flap applied and experienced a wing drop during your training?

A: I don't think we did.

Anyway, with ppl done and pax in the right seat, I will probably get less of oportunities post-ppl to do those things (and less interest in doing them as well).

50 hours is nothing and I would never go out there and say that I'm experienced with any aspect of flying an aeroplane, but you have to start somewhere.

When it comes to statistics about accidents, I have never read about someone (student or not) losing control and crash from 4000' due to stall training. What is more disturbing though is the fact that accident reports are full of reports where aircrafts stalled just after take-off or on final.

I do agree with recent posts when it comes to spins though. I never did and would never have done them solo whatever the instructor would have said.

[BigGrecian]

engine failures solo

I don't think I've been to or worked at a school which didn't allow emergency practise solo. As long as they are briefed or endorsed (if you country has endorsements) of no flight below 500' I don't see the problem - it is a skill which needs to be practised; and sometimes students need that bit of extra practise solo to build confidence etc..

However, I have yet to be one which allows spinning solo.

[pilotbear]

What is the point of teaching someone to do something that may save their life i.e. stall recovery in full landing configuration (which is when it is most likely to happen) or judgement of an emergency landing with the appropriate drills and then telling them they are not capable of doing it on their own. If your students aren't to be trusted that is down to you and your ability to teach the point of primacy. In other words the only action is the correct one :E

No wonder the people I get for CPL are so hopeless with understanding basic flying skills

[jamestkirk]

There is a massive difference to someone who is a c.25 hour PPL student going up and practising that stuff and a CPL student who, correct me if I m wrong needs a minimum of 200 hours (licence issue). where alot of that 200 hours should be hour building where they can practise the manouvres with a bit of experience behind them.

If your students have not got the 'basic flying skills', its probably not down the the original instructor (PPL). Its probably more to do with him/her not using their hour building constructively.

I am surprised as a CPL instructor you cannot see those comaprisons.

[Intercepted]

I believe the ppl-student period in your flight training must be one of the most important ones, especially if you start from zero with no flying background what so ever.

For me it was very much about confidence and if my instructor would have told me I can't do this or that solo it would definately have worked against my confidence building. If I would have had no stalls, pfls etc. as a solo student where would I be today as new holder of a ppl?

I know where I would be. I would be a scared pilot in command, not sure if I could handle an emergency and save pax and myself.

The key to flying is confidence!

With low confidence I would probably be to scared to do pfls, stalls and other manouvers nessecary for basic flying and safety. My instructor always told me not to do it solo..... :ooh:

I can understand pilotbears concern. 200 hours later, when its time for cpl, this initial ppl instructor might have had a serious effect on how prepared the pilot is for his cpl.

[jamestkirk]

Any FI would say to a student 'not to do' something purely for safety reasons. Not due to the fact they think he/she can't do it. Nothing to do with their (at that point basic) ability, but safety.

The key to flying is not just confidence. It also experience. The AAIB has reports full of people doing things they were not fully trained for, not had the experience for and being to over confident for.....etc. Some of those are no longer with us.

Sending people off to the local area solo, circuits solo, navigation solo, general handling solo is normally all that is needed to build that confidence you were talking about.

If a 25 odd hour PPL goes up to do PFL's. A very new exercise at that point. Who is there to give advice and get them to learn from mistakes. How can that student really know where he/she went wrong. They simply don't have the experience to know it.

I cannot inderstand that if you did not do these exercises solo at student level, that you would be a scared PIC. That just says that any flying have done since PPL issue counts in no way to your skills, abilities and understanding. When you do your one hour with an instructor for PPL renewal, what do you do?

When you stall say a 152 with power on, you get a wing drop (generally). Students have put me into a spin while panicking. What if that happened solo? How un-nerved would he/she be and how would that effect the rest of the flight? Had the FI taught spinning at that point? probably not as its not part of the syllabus.

These are the questions FI's ask ourselves before sending the very novice aviator solo.

[bjornhall]

Might be missing something, but where did "25 hours" come from? Surely about 40 hours (or 5 - 10 hours before the skill test) is when a student should be doing pfl's and stalls on their own? By that time they would have enough skill to both practice them safely on their own, and evaluate their performance on their own.

I think that late in the training the students need to be taught what things are safe for them to go practicing on their own, how to do it, and be allowed to do it that way in those hours before the skill test. E.g., do pfl's up to a point abeam the chosen touch down point at 1,000 ft, and do imminent stalls and the occasional basic full stall but stay well clear of intentionally aggravated stalls, or words to similar effect.

What we need to avoid is the widespread and very dangerous notion that you do things one way during training and a completely different way as soon as you get the PPL. The student who has been forbidden to do any kind of stall practice prior to obtaining their license, and who have not been told and shown how to safely practice on their own, is the one who will go up and do aggravated stalls alone on their first flight after the skill test, since he is now finally allowed to do so and knows no better... But the student who has been shown how to progress from a 25 hour student via a 40 hour student to a 48 hour fresh PPL, and how to safely build one's skills on one's own from that point on, will become the best pilot. IMHO...

[jamestkirk]

What we need to avoid is the widespread and very dangerous notion that you do things one way during training and a completely different way as soon as you get the PPL

Who said that and in what context.

Might be missing something, but where did "25 hours" come from? Surely about 40 hours (or 5 - 10 hours before the skill test)

Slow flight stalling is about (depending on individual) is about 10 hours in. So after the solo circuit/rejoins etc, they go out in the local area for some general handling etc. Add all those up and it will be c.25 hours. Roughly that is, before someone starts getting ridiculous.

That is when I do not think its appropriate for these types of exercise.

[Jumbo744]

If I would have had no stalls, pfls etc. as a solo student where would I be today as new holder of a ppl?

I know where I would be. I would be a scared pilot in command, not sure if I could handle an emergency and save pax and myself.

I don't think this is necessarly true. Let's be honest. Aren't those manoeuvers extremely easy to do ? It really is nothing extraordinary. But as someone said on this thread, I don't see the point of doing them solo. I want to do them, and I want an instructor next to me to judge my performance. That's all. I don't think it's a question of confidence, or being scared.

I see people at my flying school, very proud of doing spins, stalls and spirals, like it was the ultimate top gun manoeuver, and then, when there is more than 10 kts crosswind, they are scared to fly....

I have just passed my commercial flight test, and I will ask once in a while (every month) to fly with an instructor to re-do these manoeuvers, just to make sure I am still proficient, but I won't do them solo, I find it pointless.

[bjornhall]

jamestkirk,

Who said that and in what context.

In my view, that is the implication when one says students should not practice stalls and PFL's on their own. I suppose most would agree that a pilot needs to occasionally practice such things in order to maintain their skills, right?

If a student is first told that "these things are too dangerous for you to do on your own", and then, one skill test later, they are expected to do it on their own, then you do get that contrast between pre-skill test and post-skill test flying. ...

Jumbo744,

Aren't those manoeuvers extremely easy to do ? It really is nothing extraordinary. But as someone said on this thread, I don't see the point of doing them solo. I want to do them, and I want an instructor next to me to judge my performance.

Now are they really? Performing stall recoveries mechanically, by the book, is easy... Performing the recovery when you know you are going to perform the recovery is also easy. But I think (very!) slow flight, a couple knots above stall, and how the aircraft feels, sounds and behaves at those speeds, is something one needs to remind oneself of periodically, don't you think? And to really feel where the limit is, one has to progress to the point of the stall, IMV. Also, performing the recovery well, with minimum height loss and maximum control, is less easy than performing it at all...

I don't agree that PFL's are so easy that they don't need practiced either. Judging how far you can glide, judging the wind accurately, and dealing with complications such as spotting a powerline from 1,500 ft and suddenly have to change one's plans or flying into a strong thermal when turning base, is something one needs to be exposed to often to stay really sharp, IMV.

Furthermore, my opinion is that judging one's own performance is something every pilot should be able to do!

[Jumbo744]

But I think (very!) slow flight, a couple knots above stall, and how the aircraft feels, sounds and behaves at those speeds, is something one needs to remind oneself of periodically, don't you think?absolutely, I never said one should forget about it. I practice slow flight a lot on solo, as you said, flaps up, just a few knots above stalling speed, ball in the centre, maintaining altitude and initial heading, then doing 30 degrees bank angle turn to the left and right, and level the wings on a precise heading. nothing extraordinary. it just requires focus and coordination.

Also, performing the recovery well, with minimum height loss and maximum control, is less easy than performing it at all...again, i agree, you shouldn't lose more than 100 feet when recovering from a power off stall.

I don't agree that PFL's are so easy that they don't need practiced either.I never said that they don't need practice. In my case, I practice those only with an instructor. I have done this many times with an instructor on board, many times with winds over 25 kts, I have always made my field. But as you said, you may be so focused that you will not see those power lines, whereas with an instructor on board, he would have pointed it to you. Or you may forget to warm your engine every 500' and get a surprise on the go-around (it happened to a student last month).

I can definitely judge my performance, but I think an instructor will always be a better judge. It's not a question of being scared or not confident. It's a question of being sure that I do things right, and that I don't catch bad habits while training solo.

That's each and everyone's personnal choice to decide to practice those manoeuvers solo or with an instructor.

[Big Pistons Forever]

My 0.2 cents (for PPL students)

Solo Stalls: absolutely after demonstrated competance during dual flights and properly briefed

Solo Spins: Not under any circumstances

Solo PFL. No, but I encourage PPL's who are nearing the end of the course to do power off glide landings when traffic/wx conditions permit. The root cause of poor PFL's is almost always a lack of abilty to judge the aircrafts actual flight path against the desired flight path.

Speaking of PFL's, a pet peeve of mine is the way the flight training organizations present the exercise. Since 80 % of power loss incidents are a result of pilot actons/inactions, if Joe PPL actually has to do a real forced landing he/she has probably allready made more than one really stupid decsion/ommision and the forced landing is the last chance to save their sorry ass. It is far better to avoid the requirement to do a forced landing, by not having the engine stop in the first place:ugh: When briefing this manoever I spend a lot of tine talking about the causes of engine failures and of the role of Pilot to help prevent/mitigate power loss incidents. This is one area I think schools generally do not do a very good job and treat the ability to do a good PFL as an end in itself, instead of emphasizing what it really is: a last chance manoever to save your life.

[jamestkirk]

What we need to avoid is the widespread and very dangerous notion that you do things one way during training and a completely different way as soon as you get the PPL.

Bjornhall. The above is what you said. That has nothing to do with the mathematics of doing the exercise. I think you are selectively reading posts. Why would you do an exercise differentlt????


And again. The student has not got the experience or skill to judge his/her own performance. Even though I DO think its a great achievment to gain a PPL, 40 ish hours is not alot.

In my view, that is the implication when one says students should not practice stalls and PFL's on their own. I suppose most would agree that a pilot needs to occasionally practice such things in order to maintain their skills, right?

I did not say that either. I was very clear with the experience levels and hours. Again pprune selective reading.

[bjornhall]

jamestkirk,

I am a little surprised that you can not follow what I am saying. You keep telling me I am not addressing points I do not address; well, so far we at least agree. Let me try to express what I'm saying more clearly then:

- If you are not allowed to do an exercise prior to achieving your PPL, but are expected to do that exercise after your skill test, then there is a difference between how you are supposed to fly before and after the skill test.

- If you are not taught how to perform the exercise safely on your own, then there is a good chance you will not be able to perform it safely on your own. Some people are still so freaked out by stalls, a perfectly safe and ordinary maneuver, that they hardly dare to do them at all without an instructor. Others will think "wow, now I have a PPL, now I get to do everything!" and go out to practice intentionally aggravated stalls with 50 hours experience and little knowledge of the factors involved.

- Students should probably not generally be practicing stalls solo with 25 hours. They should, IMV, do so with 40 hours.

- A 40 hour student will have sufficient experience to judge their own performance sufficiently well. Not as well as their instructor, but they won't be able to do that with 50 hours and a PPL either. It is imperative, IMV, that a fresh PPL is able and encouraged to practice and improve on their own, particularly in that all-important time frame of 50 hours past their skill test. Part of their PPL training should be to prepare them for that self-training, IMV. Telling them "you can't do this on your own since you're not an instructor" is unhelpful, IMHO.

[A37575]

Stalls - maybe. But only clean stalls.

If the aircraft you are using for dual instruction has a dangerous stall characteristic with landing flaps down, (which is presumably why you don't allow solo stall recovery practice with flaps down) then your aircraft is un-airworthy.

During the certification process of aircraft (the Western world, anyway) there is a tolerance in terms of handling parameters that must not be exceeded. Among other things the stall in the landing configuration must be benign. If you are happy to fly an aircraft that has an obvious landing flap stall defect such as severe wing drop or tendency to spin - and thus by definition, un-airworthy, then that is your choice and ultimate responsibility. Just remember litigation is on the cards if something goes wrong. It is also unfair on the student to risk his neck to satisfy your ego.

If, on the other hand, the aircraft you are flying exhibits normal benign stall characteristics with or without landing flaps extended (in other words airworthy), then not allowing your student to conduct solo stall recovery practice with landing flaps down, would suggest you lack the confidence in your student to undertake the manoeuvre. That being so, the student should not be allowed to fly any solo - period. A change of instructor may be advisable?

[C-N]

I remember during my student days, performing/practicing power-on stalls are not allowed when I'm solo, only power-off stalls are allowed. A strict requirement from school but gave the school a good safety record.



Since 80 % of power loss incidents are a result of pilot actons/inactions, if Joe PPL actually has to do a real forced landing he/she has probably allready made more than one really stupid decsion/ommision and the forced landing is the last chance to save their sorry ass. It is far better to avoid the requirement to do a forced landing, by not having the engine stop in the first place.


In an Engine failure simulation, while looking for a good field for emergency landing, you also attempt to restart the engine, (could be carb ice, could be fuel tank empty on the other side, could be some huge particles stuck in your carb and a thousand other possible reason that's beyond a PIC's control).

[Centaurus]

main problem with a student doing it would be forgetting to warm the engine, or advancing the throttle too violently on the go around causing a real engine failure

Are you a flying instructor by any chance? The engine does not need "warming" in a glide. The reason you advance the throttle at certain times during a prolonged glide is not to warm an engine but to ensure the spark plugs have not oiled up. (a generalised term) And if they have (rough running) the high power will hopefully remove some of the lead deposits so that on go-around the engine will develop the required power. Opening the throttle also allows the carb heat (when on) to melt any ice that may have accumulated. That is why during the throttle opening you should ensure the carb heat is selected on.

[Centaurus]

Students should probably not generally be practicing stalls solo with 25 hours. They should, IMV, do so with 40 hours

My word - how things have changed since I learned to fly on Tiger Moths over 60 years ago. In those days, most of our instructors were former wartime pilots and very experienced. For that I am eternally grateful.

A glance at my first log book shows first solo at 8 hours but not before my instructor had placed a stamp in the log book certifying I had been instructed in, and found competent to recover from all spins and stalls.

Another stamp said I had read and understood Air Board and RAAF Sation Flight Orders relating to the flying and operational limitations of the DH-82 aircraft and Gypsy Major engine, and that I was conversant with action in event of fire - procedure of abandoning the aircraft (we wore parachutes) -fuel oil and ignition systems and starting and stopping of the engine, including airscrew swinging.

We had no radio and no flaps and no brakes in the Tiger Moth. Interestingly, most students went solo in under 10 hours. Perhaps that reflected instructor experience and sound judgement of when a student was safe for first solo. Often we had six aeroplanes in the circuit with no radio. We relied on light signals from ATC.

Then after two more periods of solo circuits a further dual check saw me sent solo to practice stalling and spinning. Total logged hours before being authorised for solo stalls and spins in the Tiger Moth was 12 hours.

And the above quoted Ppruner suggests at least 25 to 40 hours before solo stalls presumably in a Jabiru or Cherokee Warrior or similar designed light plane with benign stalling characteristics. A slight overkill maybe?

[cloudhawke]

I don't understand most of these comments. Is it different for power as opposed to gliding? When I went solo in a glider, one had to demonstrate profiency at spin recovery. Shortly after solo I was keen to practice stalls and spins by myself and continued to do so every several flights. 1980s, in Australia.

[C-N]

On power on stalls, you're simulating stalls encountered on takeoff. on power-off stalls you're simulating stalls which are encountered on landing (with throttles on idle).

There's a probability that your power-on stall will develop into a spin if handled incorrectly, and those spins are not easy to get out of.

Power-off stalls are easier and safer to simulate for students.

[Big Pistons Forever]

C-N

Reference your earlier post (#49) where you mentioned attemping to restart the engine. I of course teach this but I cannot aggree with your point that the engine failure could be "a thousand things beyond a pilots control". In fact the accident statistics show approximetely 80 % of loss of power accidents are caused by the pilots actions or inactions. If your average pilot finds him/herself without power than they are either in the 20 % unlucky minority and have the engine just up and fail with no warning, or much more likely represent the 80% majority by being ignorant, lazy, or careless. I teach the ground portion of the Forced approach exercisse in 3 phases.

Phase 1: Pre engine failure. This is a comprehensive review of common causes of engine failures and concentrates on fuel management to avoid engine failures due to lack of/mismanaged fuel and engine guage monitoring to catch the early onset of carb ice or early signs of engine mechanical/electrical failure. The intent is to give the student the knowledge and skills to recognize an impending engine failure early enough to divert and/or conduct a precautionary approach before the engine fails.

Phase 2: Immediately after the engine has failed. After a trimmed glide, carb heat full on,fuel boost pump on and the aircraft is pointed at a suitable landing area, then check for engine fire. Assuming no fire, the main objective of phase 2 is to get the engine going again. How much time is devoted to this depends on the altitude the airplane is at. Low to the ground this is a 15 second FMS check (fuel on/fullest tank,mixture full rich,both mags on). If the aircraft is high enough that there is some time after the forced approach plan is determined and the aircraft is well positioned for the field than a more complete troubleshooting plan is started as fols

1)scan all engine fuel guages and see if there is anything obviously wrong
2) Select all other available fuel tanks.
3) apply full throttle and then slowly reduced the throttle to half as the engine may run at only one throttle setting. If this does not work return to full throttle and slowly lean the mixture. If this does not repeat at 3 quarters and half throttle.
4) Try pumping fuel to the engine with the manual primer.
5) try selecting one mag at a time.

Obviously how much of this you get done depends on how much time you have but if the engine fails at 5000 ft then you would glide for at least 8 min so you should be able to do most or all of the list.

Phase 2 ends in one of two ways.

1) You get the engine going again and now must decide if you must still land ASAP (eg a sick engine, or very low fuel) or the issue that caused the engine
failure has been resolved ( eg running a fuel tank dry with lots in the other tanks)

2) You cannot get the engine started again in which case we move to phase 3


Phase 3: Engine failure with no restart. At this stage we completely forget about starting the engine and concentrate solely on flying the airplane to a survivable forced landing. It starts with the engine shut down actions and copmprises the traditional forced approach procedure instruction.

BTW: When I was a full time instructor, the school I worked for required every renter pilot to do an annual proficency check. I always included a practice forced approach and in 3 yrs not one PPL I flew with was able to fly a satisfactory forced approach on the first attempt and many were so bad they probably would not be survivable. Off hand I can recall 3 forced approaches by aircraft based at my home field. One was caused by uncorrected carb ice, one by running a tank dry (with fuel available in the other tank) and the the third was completely running out of gas about 15 miles short of the airport. No fatalites, thank got but some serious injuries and all three planes were destroyed. It seems to me that in general during training not enough emphasis is placed on engine failure prevention and there exists a fallacy that as long as Bloggins can fly an OK PFL in training than they are good to go.

[C-N]

good one and complete. plus the mayday call

[jamestkirk]

I do not necessarily disagree with everything you say.

But what is your experience to base some of these assumptions on. Especially saying that 40 hour PPL's can critique their performance sufficiently well.

Out of the students you have taught, is this true of some of them or all of them. Its not my experience but maybe the demographics are different.

Remember that a PPL is effectively a licence to learn.

[bjornhall]

And the above quoted Ppruner suggests at least 25 to 40 hours before solo stalls presumably in a Jabiru or Cherokee Warrior or similar designed light plane with benign stalling characteristics. A slight overkill maybe?

And still I'm the adventurous guy; a few instructors on the board are adamant they shouldn't do them at all... ;)

[A37575]

A strict requirement from school but gave the school a good safety record.


Staying on the ground and never flying also ensures a good safety record:ok:

[polyfiber]

What will be next? Banning X-wind landings? No solo spin practice, how did you guys get a licence?:rolleyes:

[bluesky300]

Sydney Aerobatics has been teaching spins from ab initio, including solo spins, for decades.

[poss]

PFL's are an important part of flight training, as a student I would start a PFL from around 2000-2500 feet and go down to about 500-600feet AGL before going around. If a student has been sent solo then clearly they have shown the ability to perform the necessary engine warms and airmanship skills to be able to complete their sortie in a safe and benificial manor.
As for spinning solo, that can be quite dangerous, without training aerobatically I don't think I would do such things without an instructor... although I've heard some fly themselves out if you let go of the controls.

[polyfiber]

I must admit that I did not believe it at first when I heard that they had stopped spin training for private pilots in the UK. To do your commercial we do spin recovery under the hood here allthough it is not required to stop at a specified heading like spin recovery VFR for your private licence.

What I really find strange is all the people spouting off how dangerous solo spinning is. How long ago did the UK stop solo spin practice?

[jamestkirk]

Its has not been stopped, its just an option on the syllabus. I would ensure that all my srydents did that exercise dual.


What I really find strange is all the people spouting off how dangerous solo spinning is.

Is that a serious statement?

[bluesky300]

Take a look at flybetter.co.uk for the other point of view. Spins are valuable, and solo spins (after a suitable amount of dual) even more so.

[polyfiber]

I have had a few friends ask me to teach them basic acro. We would rent an Aerobat and go out. Once airborne I would ask them to demonstrate a spin to the left and a spin to the right. Often they would balk at it and say they just wanted to do loops and rolls. I would tell them the lesson ends there if they didn't demonstrate a proper spin recovery. Once that was out of the way it was slow flight on the verge of a stall using only the rudder to do 360 degree turns hands off the yoke.

Then I would demo a loop and let it get flat on the top and yaw the plane into a spin.:) Of course I would announce they have control and let them recover. No one ever questioned my asking for a initial demo on spin recovery after that! One even discovered why you must pull the power to idle before you stop the yaw.

[Spunky Monkey]

Sadly the PFL and Spinning is so rarely practiced in the UK.

After once flicking the aircraft into a spin (with an instructor) and several engine problems, including a stoppie, I now practice both as often as I can. Even if it means talking through the scenario on the ground.

Engine failures don't always happen at 3000'.

If somebody is nervous about the scenarios, don't ignore them, talk about them, read about them, then have a go.

You shouldn't be afraid of the aircraft, after all it is mean't to be fun.

I teach all of my students both, and try to have fun while doing it. After all many aircraft are designed with stability in mind and would rather return to some sembelence of flying...except the Pitts Special as that is just mental!

[Lister Noble]

Take a look at flybetter.co.uk for the other point of view. Spins are valuable, and solo spins (after a suitable amount of dual) even more so.

Thank you for a most interesting and valuable link.
Lister:)
PPL 160 hrs only.

[bluesky300]

A pleasure.