Spins and Engine Failures Solo Practice
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Spins and Engine Failures Solo Practice
Hello,
I would like the opinions of flight instructors on this. My school has no problems sending students to practice spins and engine failures solo. I am wondering if this is a good idea. For engine failures, what if the student choses a field with power lines, or cables he doesn't see, what if he forgets to warm his engine, many things can go wrong if he lacks of situational awareness. Same for spins I would say.
Aren't those 2 exercises just much safer when with 2 people on board?
I would like the opinions of flight instructors on this. My school has no problems sending students to practice spins and engine failures solo. I am wondering if this is a good idea. For engine failures, what if the student choses a field with power lines, or cables he doesn't see, what if he forgets to warm his engine, many things can go wrong if he lacks of situational awareness. Same for spins I would say.
Aren't those 2 exercises just much safer when with 2 people on board?
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Hello!
Luckily, the authorities in my part of the world have decided for me, regarding this question: Descending below 500ft for practice forced landings is only permitted during flight training for licensing purposes and only with an instructor on board. But our students have to practise (and demonstrate) forced landings solo from 2000 ft above an aerodrome.
As for spins, those have been removed from flight training (dual and solo) long before my time. And that was really long ago, because I'm not so young anymore. So probably they can only be practised solo because there are no instructors around who are current in spins
Greetings, Max
I am wondering if this is a good idea.
As for spins, those have been removed from flight training (dual and solo) long before my time. And that was really long ago, because I'm not so young anymore. So probably they can only be practised solo because there are no instructors around who are current in spins
Greetings, Max
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Hello,
thanks for the reply.
For the engine failure exercise, I had an Instructor with who I would go really really low, like 100 feet, and once, even less: i remember asking him ''are we landing on that field or what??''.
That 500 feet is a good rule. We had a accident last month where the instructor and student were killed. They hit power lines over a river....
Here in Canada, we have to spin the aircraft for the commercial flight test.
I understand it is good to know and practice the recovery, but why would we learn how to put the aircraft in a spin? I always thought that this should be for the Instructor Rating as they have to demonstrate it to the students. But why is it on the syllabus for the Commercial Training?
thanks for the reply.
For the engine failure exercise, I had an Instructor with who I would go really really low, like 100 feet, and once, even less: i remember asking him ''are we landing on that field or what??''.
That 500 feet is a good rule. We had a accident last month where the instructor and student were killed. They hit power lines over a river....
Here in Canada, we have to spin the aircraft for the commercial flight test.
I understand it is good to know and practice the recovery, but why would we learn how to put the aircraft in a spin? I always thought that this should be for the Instructor Rating as they have to demonstrate it to the students. But why is it on the syllabus for the Commercial Training?
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Sounds like a recipe for disaster - I've never heard of any school allowing this.
Aside from the obvious dangers, if there're by themselves who's going to tell them where there're going wrong or how to improve?
Aside from the obvious dangers, if there're by themselves who's going to tell them where there're going wrong or how to improve?
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Regardless....
...of whether your school allows it or not, never forget....
IF IT IS A STUDENT SOLO - THEY AREN'T ALONE, THEY'RE FLYING WITH YOUR LICENCE ON BOARD AND WITH YOUR AUTHORITY/SIGNATURE.
If your not comfortable with it, don't authorise the flight. Simples....
IMHO - not comfortable with the idea (in general).
As part of the UK FI course, an instructor has to demonstrate spin recovery - and every second renewal/revalidation will be via a flight test, therefore - you're only ever a maximum of 6 years away from your last spin. If you're an aeros instructor......
IF IT IS A STUDENT SOLO - THEY AREN'T ALONE, THEY'RE FLYING WITH YOUR LICENCE ON BOARD AND WITH YOUR AUTHORITY/SIGNATURE.
If your not comfortable with it, don't authorise the flight. Simples....
IMHO - not comfortable with the idea (in general).
...because there are no instructors around who are current in spins
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UK based instructor.
Spins - no chance. I'll insist on being there for that sort of stuff. (I'm current on spins - something I do as a demo with most stalling flights if the student is receptive to the idea)
Stalls - maybe. But only clean stalls.
PFLs - Over the airfield, OK. Off airfield, not below 500ft agl and then only in a designated area.
Yep, Duchess is absolutely right. My student is flying on my licence.
Spins - no chance. I'll insist on being there for that sort of stuff. (I'm current on spins - something I do as a demo with most stalling flights if the student is receptive to the idea)
Stalls - maybe. But only clean stalls.
PFLs - Over the airfield, OK. Off airfield, not below 500ft agl and then only in a designated area.
Yep, Duchess is absolutely right. My student is flying on my licence.
Dancing with the devil, going with the flow... it's all a game to me.
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This my student is flying on my licence thing.... surely they are flying on their own medical certificate with your authority as their instructor, or are you merely highlighting how you personally perceive the situation in terms of your own conscience? Students do make mistakes when out solo and it's a rare scenario indeed where the instructor loses his licence over it. I only know one FI who allegedly lost his FI rating over a student error and that was only a rumour...
As for the above question - we don't teach spin recovery on a JAR PPL so it's not applicable as far as my job goes. I encourage solo PFL's in our training area, but not below 500ft. In fact solo PFL's are recommended where I work as a way of building solo time in the local area, as indeed are advanced turns. All exercises both dual and solo should be stated in the remarks section of the students logbook. As an aside here, when applying for an FI restriction removal the CAA like to see evidence of the applicant instructor having authorised a variety of different solo student exercises apart from the usual 12/13 and 18A.
VFE.
As for the above question - we don't teach spin recovery on a JAR PPL so it's not applicable as far as my job goes. I encourage solo PFL's in our training area, but not below 500ft. In fact solo PFL's are recommended where I work as a way of building solo time in the local area, as indeed are advanced turns. All exercises both dual and solo should be stated in the remarks section of the students logbook. As an aside here, when applying for an FI restriction removal the CAA like to see evidence of the applicant instructor having authorised a variety of different solo student exercises apart from the usual 12/13 and 18A.
VFE.
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Hello all!
thanks so much for the replies. At least now I know I am not crazy.
I'm a student pilot, 132h of flight, now reviewing for the CPL flight test. When I talked about it with my instructor, and some students at the school, they had a very macho reaction like 'what are you scared of? YOU HAVE TO practice, blabla'.
So when my instructor tells me to go to the zone and practice spins and engine failures, I'm not doing it. I do steep turns, diversion, precautionary landing on the airport chosen for my diversion and that's it.
Thanks!
thanks so much for the replies. At least now I know I am not crazy.
I'm a student pilot, 132h of flight, now reviewing for the CPL flight test. When I talked about it with my instructor, and some students at the school, they had a very macho reaction like 'what are you scared of? YOU HAVE TO practice, blabla'.
So when my instructor tells me to go to the zone and practice spins and engine failures, I'm not doing it. I do steep turns, diversion, precautionary landing on the airport chosen for my diversion and that's it.
Thanks!
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I'm an FAA CFI, and NO WAY would I allow either one of these. It is just a recipe for disaster. They can practice engine outs with me on board, and really, I see no reason for a student pilot to "practice" spins, either solo or with me. In the past, I have demonstrated a spin to private pilot students, but in time, I quit doing this as well.
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Why one would want to practice a Spin solo is beyond me. With an instructor yes by all means but never solo. Agree with several of the above posters - recipe for disaster. Always be aware of the recovery technique though. The PFL I cant really see a problem with whilst solo once it is in a quiet non-built up area with little traffic. The chances of getting a real PFL whilst solo maybe quite low but still most likely higher than encountering a spin.
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Solo Spins
Not required for the PPL syllabus here in Canada, only Commercial and Instructor training. Some PPL students will ask for a demo and I have no problems with this, some will also want to attempt a recovery again no big concerns. I believe we should be demonstrating and teaching more of the prevention aspect. A lot of spin accidents occur when turning base to final not at altitude.
We should also place more of an emphasis on engine failures on takeoff and again not so much at altitude. Numerous fatal accidents occur each year after attempts to turn back to the field after an engine quits because of lack of altitude. Prevention is way better than cure.
We should also place more of an emphasis on engine failures on takeoff and again not so much at altitude. Numerous fatal accidents occur each year after attempts to turn back to the field after an engine quits because of lack of altitude. Prevention is way better than cure.
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If a student has been thoroughly schooled in spinning an aircraft and is in an aircraft capable and equipped for spins (to include parachutes), that's one thing...but the student, particularly a student who hadn't reached his or her initial pilot certification yet...shouldn't generally be sent to do spins or off field landings by himself or herself.
I do believe in showing these things to a student and instructing the student, and I believe a student who hasn't been shown and hasn't made off field landings has been done a big disservice. No one should ever experience their first forced landing on their own...by the time it happens to them, it should be familiar because they've already been there with an instructor.
I do believe in showing these things to a student and instructing the student, and I believe a student who hasn't been shown and hasn't made off field landings has been done a big disservice. No one should ever experience their first forced landing on their own...by the time it happens to them, it should be familiar because they've already been there with an instructor.
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'So when my instructor tells me to go to the zone and practice spins and engine failures, I'm not doing it. I do steep turns, diversion, precautionary landing on the airport chosen for my diversion and that's it.'
So in essence you are displaying a high standard of airmanship and correct decision making processes. I believe I would rather fly with you than with your instructor.
So in essence you are displaying a high standard of airmanship and correct decision making processes. I believe I would rather fly with you than with your instructor.
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I see no reason why you would want to practice spins, unless doing an FI course, or practicing for aerobatics.
As for PFLs, I have practiced this many times on my own, or with passengers on board. The main problem with a student doing it would be forgetting to warm the engine, or advancing the throttle too violently on the go around causing a real engine failure.
There is also the 500' rule to be aware of, which is fine if you've got an instructor next to you keeping an eye on it but not so good when you're on your own and also trying to fly the plane.
If you're not comfortable practicing something on your own, it's probably an indication that you need to practice it more with an instructor.
As for PFLs, I have practiced this many times on my own, or with passengers on board. The main problem with a student doing it would be forgetting to warm the engine, or advancing the throttle too violently on the go around causing a real engine failure.
There is also the 500' rule to be aware of, which is fine if you've got an instructor next to you keeping an eye on it but not so good when you're on your own and also trying to fly the plane.
If you're not comfortable practicing something on your own, it's probably an indication that you need to practice it more with an instructor.
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The most I'd ever agree with
Is if you went solo and practiced stalls.
I could never imagine letting or asking someone to go out and do SPINS.
Where I originally did my PPL we would go for some GH and among the items we'd do steep turns and stalls.
1/60
I could never imagine letting or asking someone to go out and do SPINS.
Where I originally did my PPL we would go for some GH and among the items we'd do steep turns and stalls.
1/60
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What reason would a student have for practicing emergency landings? Is he able to evaluate and critique his decisions? That's the instructor's area of responsibility, and should be introduced early in training in conjunction with perhaps turns around a point to show the student how to judge wind direction.
As far as spins, definitely should be demonstrated after being explained prior to flight.
One of the very best maneuvers that will have a big impact on instrument flying skills is slow flight, straight ahead to start with and then introducing standard rate timed turns along with 500 fpm climbs and descents. From this maneuver is a great place to kick some rudder and induce a spin, you will get a real good look at your trainee. For him to practice spins solo, NO WAY
As far as spins, definitely should be demonstrated after being explained prior to flight.
One of the very best maneuvers that will have a big impact on instrument flying skills is slow flight, straight ahead to start with and then introducing standard rate timed turns along with 500 fpm climbs and descents. From this maneuver is a great place to kick some rudder and induce a spin, you will get a real good look at your trainee. For him to practice spins solo, NO WAY
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??????
OK, it's been a while since I was instructing, but for what it's worth.....
ALL of my PPL students were exposed to some spinning - even if it was only a demo - just so they could see how fast things could go wrong. Some students wanted to go futher and I was happy to spin with them and let them do the recovery - some had one demo and never wanted to see a spin again....
I would NEVER suggest that ANY PPL student went off solo to practice spinning -
The same applies to PEF - I encouraged the students to think about the 'what ifs' - field selection, where they would go if it all went horribly quiet up front, what there action whould be, etc, etc but I wouldn't encourage them to practice without an instructor sat next to them.....
Unless things have changed a lot since I left instructing, I would keep to the same rules now....
ALL of my PPL students were exposed to some spinning - even if it was only a demo - just so they could see how fast things could go wrong. Some students wanted to go futher and I was happy to spin with them and let them do the recovery - some had one demo and never wanted to see a spin again....
I would NEVER suggest that ANY PPL student went off solo to practice spinning -
The same applies to PEF - I encouraged the students to think about the 'what ifs' - field selection, where they would go if it all went horribly quiet up front, what there action whould be, etc, etc but I wouldn't encourage them to practice without an instructor sat next to them.....
Unless things have changed a lot since I left instructing, I would keep to the same rules now....
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Students practising spins and PFL's solo! What a barmy idea.
Especially spins!!!
I would like to remove the windscreen of that insructors car. So when he/she drives home, reality can come flooding in.
Especially spins!!!
I would like to remove the windscreen of that insructors car. So when he/she drives home, reality can come flooding in.
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I have about 100 hours teaching spins... unfortunately I do not have a choice, the country I am flying in requires CPL to be taught on spin entry and recovery !!
However ... most countries around the world already took the spin training out of the mandatory training subjects for the purpose of licensing !!! Most of the fatalities (during training) happen while practicing stalls and entering intentional or unintentional spinning ... and 90% of those while the instructor is on board !!!!!!!!
I have scared myself in spins before and will unfortunately continue to do so. Practicing spins if it is not mandatory is NOT A GOOD IDEA !!! And of course with that it is obvious it is even worse when a low experience student pilot tries on his own.
Engine failures is the same... most of the flight school around the world will include in their operation manuals or SOPs "no engine failure practice during solo flights". This is so for obvious reasons. The reason an instructor practices engine failures with a student is for the student to be ready in case it happens for real during his solo flight !!!!! Not for the student to know how to simulate and practice it by himself
There are many more subjects to practice other than engine failures and spins during solo flights ... subjects that can bring a lot more to a student pilot's experience.
safety is the most important factor while flying... if it doesn't sound right chances are it is not !
cheers
Julien
However ... most countries around the world already took the spin training out of the mandatory training subjects for the purpose of licensing !!! Most of the fatalities (during training) happen while practicing stalls and entering intentional or unintentional spinning ... and 90% of those while the instructor is on board !!!!!!!!
I have scared myself in spins before and will unfortunately continue to do so. Practicing spins if it is not mandatory is NOT A GOOD IDEA !!! And of course with that it is obvious it is even worse when a low experience student pilot tries on his own.
Engine failures is the same... most of the flight school around the world will include in their operation manuals or SOPs "no engine failure practice during solo flights". This is so for obvious reasons. The reason an instructor practices engine failures with a student is for the student to be ready in case it happens for real during his solo flight !!!!! Not for the student to know how to simulate and practice it by himself
There are many more subjects to practice other than engine failures and spins during solo flights ... subjects that can bring a lot more to a student pilot's experience.
safety is the most important factor while flying... if it doesn't sound right chances are it is not !
cheers
Julien