A barrel roll is NOT an aerobatic thing.....

[Heidihiho]

A little "rogh" translation, and a lesson to all of us...... Have fun, and do bring some napkins to dry up your tears of laughter:}:bored:

Cimber Sterling Flight Ops Manager:

- “Barell Roll” is not aerobatic flight "
Cimber Sterling points out factual errors in the debate on Jorgen Nielsen “Barell Roll” writes its Flight Ops Manager Soren Byrjalsen.


"Given the features / articles that have recently been placed in various media conc. Jørgen Nielsens “Barell Roll” in May last year, will Cimber Sterling clarify a couple of overlooked details.

Not aerobatic flight
First, it is not an aerobatic flight manoeuvre. It is a flying manoeuvre; you can use to restore the normal flight position where violent winds or turbulence has pushed the plane into an abnormal position. In such a case it would be far more burdensome for the aircraft to be pushed back instead of letting the aircraft roll all around. All pilots are trained for this manoeuvre in the simulator, while not being trained for example to perform loops or other synthetic flight manoeuvres. It is mandatory that a pilot must be able to correct the aircraft from unusual attitude. And every passenger plane must be able to perform this manoeuvre without hesitation.
The plane was not overloaded
And secondly, we note that the criticism comes from a single civilian trained pilot who has never flown in the aircraft, which rolled was perpetrated, and we are in possession of official papers from ATR plant, which clearly rejects that the aircraft in any way should have been burdened by such manoeuvre. It goes without saying that we believe to be tackled in the long end of the expertise - and that this perspective has been omitted in this ongoing discussion of the case.
Administrative errors
what was Jorgen Nielsen errors and why SLV's (DK-CAA) raised finger was not performing the manoeuvre flown by itself, but that flight was not considered a test flight.
In test flights the aircraft fly Many times to its full potential and testing various abnormal situations. One example is the engines and testing everything else in the aircraft's systems.
Jørgen Nielsen certified test flight pilot, but his error in this case was not the roll in itself but that the flight was "only" approved for a flight to Eindhoven and not a test flight. So it is of a purely administrative nature.

You are very welcome to come back with further questions.
Sincerely, Søren Byrjalsen, Flight Commander ATR, Cimber Sterling "
Read ATRs conclusion HERE

[av8boy]

In such a case it would be far more burdensome for the aircraft to be pushed back instead of letting the aircraft roll all around.

In much the same way that pilots of commercial aircraft prefer to do a reverse half Cuban eight to reverse course.

:uhoh:

[usp3r]

WJ546BEps-M

[Cacophonix]

I wondered why this figure appeared in all major airline Standard Operating Procedures.

http://rafaero.free.fr/Figures/tonneau.gif (http://rafaero.free.fr/Anims/tonneau.gif)

Postscript: Falconer1's right, I missed the T.

[falconer1]

used the same words when he explained why he barrelled the 707 proto over Seattle......loooong time ago..

[Sprogget]

I think Tex told the boss he was selling the aircraft. Think that was good enough for the boss too, with the caveat not to do it again.:)

[BackPacker]

All pilots are trained for this manoeuvre in the simulator

I'd like to see the full-motion simulator which can accurately emulate the sensations of a barrell roll.:ok:

Seriously, yes, a proper barrel roll can be flown within the structural limits of most aircraft. The 707 video is proof of that. BUT if you get it even slightly wrong you may end up inverted, nose up, with nothing on the clock with the makers name, or in a steep dive requiring many g's to recover. In both cases you WILL exceed the limits of the "normal" or even "utility" category.

So do me a favour and DON'T TRY THIS AT HOME unless you are, or have been, under proper aerobatics instruction in a proper aerobatics plane.

Namibfox, the Aresti symbol you supplied is actually for a slow/aileron roll. A barrel roll doesn't have an "official" Aresti symbol (it's not an aerobatics competition figure) but the informal notation is to add a little circle to the tip of the arrow.

[n5296s]

So do me a favour and DON'T TRY THIS AT HOME unless you are, or have been, under proper aerobatics instruction in a proper aerobatics plane.
I have... does that mean it's OK to go try it in an ATR now? When can I start?

(Sorry, just being pedantic).

Was it really a barrel roll that the ATR flew? The term is often misused for a normal aileron roll, which I suspect is what was really meant. In theory any aircraft can fly an aileron roll with no problem - the issue, as BackPacker says, is what happens when it goes wrong. In a proper +5/-3 aerobatic plane, no big deal, just about any recovery will work safely. otoh in a +2/-1 transport category aircraft, your margins are a lot tighter. Even in my 182 (+3.8/-2) I would not do it even though I am quite sure it would be 100% safe (though illegal, as well as unwise).

But I've heard that USAF pilots have rolled C-130s with no problems... if you know what you're doing and have plenty of acro experience, I guess you could do it in anything. The SERIOUSLY unwise part is doing it right overhead a busy airport!

n5296s

[Ultranomad]

Seriously, yes, a proper barrel roll can be flown within the structural limits of most aircraft.
In fact, a proper barrel roll can be flown practically at +1g. N.Sattarov, a Russian test pilot, won a bet that he'd roll a Tupolev 154 (a 160-seat airliner) so the people inside wouldn't notice it without looking out the window. It was considered a grave violation and cost him a place in the space crew, but that's another story.

[eharding]

This was sent to me a while back - I'm not sure about the assertion the Mad Mexican was really try to deliberately flick the thing, but whatever he was trying, the results weren't pretty:

http://www.plus7minus5.co.uk/FlickedBizJet/FlickedBizJet.htm

...as someone else remarked, a very nasty case of Mexican Swine Flew.

If you want to fly aerobatics, do it in something sensible.

[wiggy]

I'm with Backpacker on this one....it certainly is an aerobatic manoeuvre, it's probably the most useful aeros manouevre you could take over into the Fast Jet /air combat enviroment but it is the one aeros manouvre that can very rapidly bite you in the backside if you aren't careful . Certainly when I instructed basic aeros many Moons ago it was the one I used to give the biggest/loudest health warnings about.

If it's correctly flown it can be done elegantly and without bending anything... but get it wrong ( especially burying the nose, usually because you didn't get the nose up high enough early on in the manouvere ) can at best end up with a bent aircraft and at worse with a smoking hole....

DON'T TRY THIS AT HOME....without adult instruction.

[Pace]

I flew a flight test in a twin with an examiner. he took control from me and barrel rolled the twin on an ILS.

I will deny this if pushed as it was a made up story :)

Dont do it unless you really know what you are doing! It is so important to maintain 1 G throughout the roll and you can break the aeroplane :( It can be done I know that but be careful.

Pace

[Them thar hills]

Sounds like Glen !

[Pace]

Sounds like Glen !

;)

[Cacophonix]

Thanks Backpacker for the info on the informal Arresti.

On rolling - I am sure this video has been linked on PPRuNE before but whenever I watch it I am stunned and humbled.

YouTube - Bob Hoover Aerial Suite (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PftNh_SShlg)

[Pace]

Amazing film on Bob Hoover :) Love the bit at the end when he calls his flying energy management.

Pace

[englishal]

A barrel roll is not that easy to pull off for a novice at aerobatics. An aileron roll (which is NOT 1g) is easy - EXCEPT that in many aeroplanes the nose will drop 60+ degrees during the roll - I never new that until I did a bit of aero's, which is why you may have to pull 30 degrees up before you roll ("put your feet on the horizon").

A barrel roll on the other hand requires much more skill and coordination in pitch and roll which is why it can easily be f**ked up by a novice (like me :O)...

[Pilot DAR]

Aw, c'mon...

"aerobatic manoeuvre" - means a manoeuvre where a change in the attitude of an aircraft results in a bank angle greater than 60 degrees, an abnormal attitude or an abnormal acceleration not incidental to normal flying;

From the Transport Canada definitions

Any roll, like any other manuever defined as "aerobatic" as above, requires appropriate training, and flown in a suitably designed aircraft, to be accomplished WITH AN ADEQUATE MARGIN OF SAFETY

Pilot DAR

[BackPacker]

Just for laughs I decided to try a proper barrel roll today, inbetween the practice for the UK Standard 2009 sequence. So roll rate constant, g force constant, level in both axis over the top and no height loss. Took me three tries before I could pull it off again.

Of course this was in an aerobatics aircraft with plenty height and everything. But I was still surprised about how hard it is, especially after not having done one for a year or so. And I'm not exactly rusty when it comes to aerobatics.

[Zulu Alpha]

This is the Bob Hoover video where he pours a glass of iced tea while doing a Barrel Roll.

A Barrel Roll while Pouring Iced Tea (by Jeremy Zawodny) (http://jeremy.zawodny.com/blog/archives/006784.html)

ZA

[rodthesod]

I think the original post (which refers to an aileron roll - not barrel roll) - perhaps the whole thread should be removed just in case some idiot (or unsuspecting, unquestioning novice) believes it.

A barrel roll is most definitely an aerobatic manoeuvre whether defined by Aresti or not.
It can be flown in virtually any aircraft by a competent, properly trained pilot without stressing the aircraft.
If not flown properly it is the biggest potential height loser of all aerobatic manoeuvres.
If not flown properly (by even a small margin of error) it will result in high stresses that most non-aerobatic aircraft will not survive unscathed.Having eye-witnessed Don Bullock's crass stupidity at Biggin Hill some years ago when he totalled his A26 Invader and all 7 occupants (narrowly avoiding a housing estate by luck, not judgement) I feel very strongly about this. Having trained RAF pilots I've seen a barrel roll, c*cked-up by over-confidence, lose 10,000ft in a Jet Provost (with a 6G recovery).

Please, just because you've seen a master like Bob Hoover do it with such panache and apparent ease, don't assume that it is easy. There are many factors to be considered. To mention just two:

If the nose isn't high enough in the inverted, there will always be considerable height loss if the manoeuvre is continued.
Control inputs and stick/(rudder) forces vary throughout the manoeuvre (unlike the steady aileron input of the aileron roll) - the whys and wherefores need to be fully understood before embarking on the exercise.

[Pilot DAR]

I entirely agree with rodthesod

[englishal]

There was a Yak fatality at Bournemouth some years ago. Apparently on the last fly past the pilot decided to do a barrel roll over the airfield (close to the ground).....uh oh, guess what happened. Trouble is it is not just the pilot....

[Cloud Basher]

And to add, a barrel roll is not a +1G manoeuvre, it is a positive G manoeuvre. You have to have more than 1 G in the initial pull up and you have to have more than 1G during the pull out at the bottom. How much depends on exactly what others are speaking about here.

Yes it can be done in almost any aircraft, but if you do it in one that is not an aerobatic aircraft then you are a test pilot and I hope you have test pilot skills in order to ensure you do not stress the aircraft.

I reckon the barrel roll has to be one of, if not the most, misunderstood aerobatic manoeuvre out there. People who say it is only +1G have never flown one.

To do one at constant pitch and roll rates requires real skill. You will notice in the videos that Mr Hoover doesn't do a textbook barrel roll (and neither is his loops) they are modified to achieve the desired wow factor, whilst maintaining an acceptable degree of safety close to the ground (this by the way is what made Mr Hoover such a good air show and display pilot - he knew how to achieve the wow factor whilst still maintaining his own level of safety). Notice how he pulls up to between 45 and 60 degrees nose up before he begins his rolls, this means he will have a nice high nose attitude before he begins the rolls (feet on the horizon at least) but more importantly it means he will have very little if any height loss and it gives him plenty of room to adjust his pitch rate coming out of the manoeuvre to ensure he doesn't overstress the airframe but also have the pull up completed close to the ground for the extra wow factor. The same applies to the loops (most air show pilots do it), the loops aren't round, they are elliptical with the top of the loop abbreviated ie the pitch rate is increased so that during the pullout again you do not have to load the aircraft up to ensure you lose no height and can then adjust your rate of pitch to have the loop finishing close to the ground for the wow factor.

Anyway back to the barrel roll and topic at hand, it is most definitely an aerobatic manoeuvre, I believe the author was simply trying to state that it can be used to get out of an unusual attitude and was trying to get his audience to be less nervous about it by saying it is not an aerobatic manoeuvre. The latter is obviously wrong.

Cheers
CB