A barrel roll is NOT an aerobatic thing.....
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A barrel roll is NOT an aerobatic thing.....
A little "rogh" translation, and a lesson to all of us...... Have fun, and do bring some napkins to dry up your tears of laughter
Cimber Sterling Flight Ops Manager:
- “Barell Roll” is not aerobatic flight "
Cimber Sterling points out factual errors in the debate on Jorgen Nielsen “Barell Roll” writes its Flight Ops Manager Soren Byrjalsen.
"Given the features / articles that have recently been placed in various media conc. Jørgen Nielsens “Barell Roll” in May last year, will Cimber Sterling clarify a couple of overlooked details.
Not aerobatic flight
First, it is not an aerobatic flight manoeuvre. It is a flying manoeuvre; you can use to restore the normal flight position where violent winds or turbulence has pushed the plane into an abnormal position. In such a case it would be far more burdensome for the aircraft to be pushed back instead of letting the aircraft roll all around. All pilots are trained for this manoeuvre in the simulator, while not being trained for example to perform loops or other synthetic flight manoeuvres. It is mandatory that a pilot must be able to correct the aircraft from unusual attitude. And every passenger plane must be able to perform this manoeuvre without hesitation.
The plane was not overloaded
And secondly, we note that the criticism comes from a single civilian trained pilot who has never flown in the aircraft, which rolled was perpetrated, and we are in possession of official papers from ATR plant, which clearly rejects that the aircraft in any way should have been burdened by such manoeuvre. It goes without saying that we believe to be tackled in the long end of the expertise - and that this perspective has been omitted in this ongoing discussion of the case.
Administrative errors
what was Jorgen Nielsen errors and why SLV's (DK-CAA) raised finger was not performing the manoeuvre flown by itself, but that flight was not considered a test flight.
In test flights the aircraft fly Many times to its full potential and testing various abnormal situations. One example is the engines and testing everything else in the aircraft's systems.
Jørgen Nielsen certified test flight pilot, but his error in this case was not the roll in itself but that the flight was "only" approved for a flight to Eindhoven and not a test flight. So it is of a purely administrative nature.
You are very welcome to come back with further questions.
Sincerely, Søren Byrjalsen, Flight Commander ATR, Cimber Sterling "
Read ATRs conclusion HERE
Cimber Sterling Flight Ops Manager:
- “Barell Roll” is not aerobatic flight "
Cimber Sterling points out factual errors in the debate on Jorgen Nielsen “Barell Roll” writes its Flight Ops Manager Soren Byrjalsen.
"Given the features / articles that have recently been placed in various media conc. Jørgen Nielsens “Barell Roll” in May last year, will Cimber Sterling clarify a couple of overlooked details.
Not aerobatic flight
First, it is not an aerobatic flight manoeuvre. It is a flying manoeuvre; you can use to restore the normal flight position where violent winds or turbulence has pushed the plane into an abnormal position. In such a case it would be far more burdensome for the aircraft to be pushed back instead of letting the aircraft roll all around. All pilots are trained for this manoeuvre in the simulator, while not being trained for example to perform loops or other synthetic flight manoeuvres. It is mandatory that a pilot must be able to correct the aircraft from unusual attitude. And every passenger plane must be able to perform this manoeuvre without hesitation.
The plane was not overloaded
And secondly, we note that the criticism comes from a single civilian trained pilot who has never flown in the aircraft, which rolled was perpetrated, and we are in possession of official papers from ATR plant, which clearly rejects that the aircraft in any way should have been burdened by such manoeuvre. It goes without saying that we believe to be tackled in the long end of the expertise - and that this perspective has been omitted in this ongoing discussion of the case.
Administrative errors
what was Jorgen Nielsen errors and why SLV's (DK-CAA) raised finger was not performing the manoeuvre flown by itself, but that flight was not considered a test flight.
In test flights the aircraft fly Many times to its full potential and testing various abnormal situations. One example is the engines and testing everything else in the aircraft's systems.
Jørgen Nielsen certified test flight pilot, but his error in this case was not the roll in itself but that the flight was "only" approved for a flight to Eindhoven and not a test flight. So it is of a purely administrative nature.
You are very welcome to come back with further questions.
Sincerely, Søren Byrjalsen, Flight Commander ATR, Cimber Sterling "
Read ATRs conclusion HERE
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In such a case it would be far more burdensome for the aircraft to be pushed back instead of letting the aircraft roll all around.
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The Johnson syndrome
I wondered why this figure appeared in all major airline Standard Operating Procedures.
Postscript: Falconer1's right, I missed the T.
Postscript: Falconer1's right, I missed the T.
Last edited by Cacophonix; 12th Jun 2009 at 08:49. Reason: Desecration of Tex's name
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All pilots are trained for this manoeuvre in the simulator
Seriously, yes, a proper barrel roll can be flown within the structural limits of most aircraft. The 707 video is proof of that. BUT if you get it even slightly wrong you may end up inverted, nose up, with nothing on the clock with the makers name, or in a steep dive requiring many g's to recover. In both cases you WILL exceed the limits of the "normal" or even "utility" category.
So do me a favour and DON'T TRY THIS AT HOME unless you are, or have been, under proper aerobatics instruction in a proper aerobatics plane.
Namibfox, the Aresti symbol you supplied is actually for a slow/aileron roll. A barrel roll doesn't have an "official" Aresti symbol (it's not an aerobatics competition figure) but the informal notation is to add a little circle to the tip of the arrow.
So do me a favour and DON'T TRY THIS AT HOME unless you are, or have been, under proper aerobatics instruction in a proper aerobatics plane.
(Sorry, just being pedantic).
Was it really a barrel roll that the ATR flew? The term is often misused for a normal aileron roll, which I suspect is what was really meant. In theory any aircraft can fly an aileron roll with no problem - the issue, as BackPacker says, is what happens when it goes wrong. In a proper +5/-3 aerobatic plane, no big deal, just about any recovery will work safely. otoh in a +2/-1 transport category aircraft, your margins are a lot tighter. Even in my 182 (+3.8/-2) I would not do it even though I am quite sure it would be 100% safe (though illegal, as well as unwise).
But I've heard that USAF pilots have rolled C-130s with no problems... if you know what you're doing and have plenty of acro experience, I guess you could do it in anything. The SERIOUSLY unwise part is doing it right overhead a busy airport!
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Seriously, yes, a proper barrel roll can be flown within the structural limits of most aircraft.
A little less conversation,
a little more aviation...
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This was sent to me a while back - I'm not sure about the assertion the Mad Mexican was really try to deliberately flick the thing, but whatever he was trying, the results weren't pretty:
http://www.plus7minus5.co.uk/Flicked...ckedBizJet.htm
...as someone else remarked, a very nasty case of Mexican Swine Flew.
If you want to fly aerobatics, do it in something sensible.
http://www.plus7minus5.co.uk/Flicked...ckedBizJet.htm
...as someone else remarked, a very nasty case of Mexican Swine Flew.
If you want to fly aerobatics, do it in something sensible.
I'm with Backpacker on this one....it certainly is an aerobatic manoeuvre, it's probably the most useful aeros manouevre you could take over into the Fast Jet /air combat enviroment but it is the one aeros manouvre that can very rapidly bite you in the backside if you aren't careful . Certainly when I instructed basic aeros many Moons ago it was the one I used to give the biggest/loudest health warnings about.
If it's correctly flown it can be done elegantly and without bending anything... but get it wrong ( especially burying the nose, usually because you didn't get the nose up high enough early on in the manouvere ) can at best end up with a bent aircraft and at worse with a smoking hole....
DON'T TRY THIS AT HOME....without adult instruction.
If it's correctly flown it can be done elegantly and without bending anything... but get it wrong ( especially burying the nose, usually because you didn't get the nose up high enough early on in the manouvere ) can at best end up with a bent aircraft and at worse with a smoking hole....
DON'T TRY THIS AT HOME....without adult instruction.
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I flew a flight test in a twin with an examiner. he took control from me and barrel rolled the twin on an ILS.
I will deny this if pushed as it was a made up story
Dont do it unless you really know what you are doing! It is so important to maintain 1 G throughout the roll and you can break the aeroplane
It can be done I know that but be careful.
Pace
I will deny this if pushed as it was a made up story
Dont do it unless you really know what you are doing! It is so important to maintain 1 G throughout the roll and you can break the aeroplane
It can be done I know that but be careful.Pace
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BH
Thanks Backpacker for the info on the informal Arresti.
On rolling - I am sure this video has been linked on PPRuNE before but whenever I watch it I am stunned and humbled.
YouTube - Bob Hoover Aerial Suite
On rolling - I am sure this video has been linked on PPRuNE before but whenever I watch it I am stunned and humbled.
YouTube - Bob Hoover Aerial Suite
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A barrel roll is not that easy to pull off for a novice at aerobatics. An aileron roll (which is NOT 1g) is easy - EXCEPT that in many aeroplanes the nose will drop 60+ degrees during the roll - I never new that until I did a bit of aero's, which is why you may have to pull 30 degrees up before you roll ("put your feet on the horizon").
A barrel roll on the other hand requires much more skill and coordination in pitch and roll which is why it can easily be f**ked up by a novice (like me
)...
A barrel roll on the other hand requires much more skill and coordination in pitch and roll which is why it can easily be f**ked up by a novice (like me
)...
Moderator
Aw, c'mon...
"aerobatic manoeuvre" - means a manoeuvre where a change in the attitude of an aircraft results in a bank angle greater than 60 degrees, an abnormal attitude or an abnormal acceleration not incidental to normal flying;
From the Transport Canada definitions
Any roll, like any other manuever defined as "aerobatic" as above, requires appropriate training, and flown in a suitably designed aircraft, to be accomplished WITH AN ADEQUATE MARGIN OF SAFETY
Pilot DAR
"aerobatic manoeuvre" - means a manoeuvre where a change in the attitude of an aircraft results in a bank angle greater than 60 degrees, an abnormal attitude or an abnormal acceleration not incidental to normal flying;
From the Transport Canada definitions
Any roll, like any other manuever defined as "aerobatic" as above, requires appropriate training, and flown in a suitably designed aircraft, to be accomplished WITH AN ADEQUATE MARGIN OF SAFETY
Pilot DAR
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Just for laughs I decided to try a proper barrel roll today, inbetween the practice for the UK Standard 2009 sequence. So roll rate constant, g force constant, level in both axis over the top and no height loss. Took me three tries before I could pull it off again.
Of course this was in an aerobatics aircraft with plenty height and everything. But I was still surprised about how hard it is, especially after not having done one for a year or so. And I'm not exactly rusty when it comes to aerobatics.
Of course this was in an aerobatics aircraft with plenty height and everything. But I was still surprised about how hard it is, especially after not having done one for a year or so. And I'm not exactly rusty when it comes to aerobatics.
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This is the Bob Hoover video where he pours a glass of iced tea while doing a Barrel Roll.
A Barrel Roll while Pouring Iced Tea (by Jeremy Zawodny)
ZA
A Barrel Roll while Pouring Iced Tea (by Jeremy Zawodny)
ZA