Oop t'North [Archive] - PPRuNe Forums

Ringway Flyer

4th Apr 2009, 20:37

You could have a look at Sandtoft - but look out for the Bloodhound missiles near the 23 threshold (if they're still there!)

Or Elvington, with it's infinitely long runway. The caff's not brilliant, but the air museum is worth a look round. PPR essential or you could find the runway full of cars....

Breighton is another possibility, home to The Real Aeroplane Company. Some interesting old machines about. Can't remember what the food was like...

Hope you enjoy a Good Day!

We have been to Wellesbourne today. Very nice, if a bit windy. (16knts, gusting 24, right across, but fortunately only 12 when we arrived).

RF.

x933

4th Apr 2009, 20:59

Elvington or Breighton (Or both, they're only about 10min apart) are safe options as there's the museum at Elvington and lots of Pontious Pilot-era kit at Breigton (If that's your bent). Elvington is difficult to miss (2.5mi of runway - miss that and you probably shouldn't be flying), Breighton can be a bit of a pain to spot. Landing fees sensible at both, Breighton has a better cafe. Watch out for gliders from Pocklington and Rufforth, and Elvington is on the ILS for Church Fenton - likewise the area's pretty busy with Tucanos from Linton during the week.

Neverthorpe is as short as it is wide (Shortest licensed strip in the UK, apparently) so check your performance before you go there...

Gertrude the Wombat

4th Apr 2009, 21:33

Thanks all so far ... I must say I'd be happier with 800m than 500m, so the best combination of runway length and caff recommendation so far looks like Breighton ... except that Pooley's says "refreshments and food at weekends", so I'd better give them a bell in the morning to see whether Good Friday counts as a weekend.

(I used a full 800m this afternoon, but I was proud enough of having done a decent turbulent crosswind landing off an NDB approach that I wasn't worrying about how much runway I was using up!)

L'aviateur

4th Apr 2009, 22:39

Sherburn is a great place to visit for food, except Mondays. They are a busy airfield, with a fairly good atmosphere and good food.

Sandtoft, serves food all week, and can be very interesting on a busy day with unusual aircraft.

Zulu Alpha

5th Apr 2009, 14:38

Breighton gets my vote mainly because of the interesting aircraft and nice people. Not sure about food other than at weekends as its a club rather than a business, but give them a call...They'll probably run you to the nearest pub!! They ran us to our B&B and picked us up the next morning.

Sherburn is a more commercial setup with lots of students and training aircraft with a cafe to feed them.

Sandtoft also has a cafe and nice people. I have just come back from there.

Haven't been much further Norf.

ZA

Gertrude the Wombat

5th Apr 2009, 14:47

Breighton gets my vote mainly because of the interesting aircraft and nice people. Not sure about food other than at weekends as its a club rather than a business, but give them a call...They'll probably run you to the nearest pub!!
Yes, I've now spoken to them, there won't be any food on Friday. The nearest pub looks like the Breighton Ferry, which looks like reasonable walking distance. I suppose I should give them a call.

Elvington didn't answer the phone when I called.

flybymike

5th Apr 2009, 15:29

North Coates is a delightful coastal airfield with a beautiful grass strip akin to a billiard table. If I remember rightly about 650 metres or so. They certainly do a respectable sausage and egg sandwich at weekends and probably on a Good Friday too.

Zulu Alpha

5th Apr 2009, 15:30

Elvington airfield is PPR and has no facilities apart from a 3km runway!!!. It is often used by F1 teams etc so is often not available for landing.

The Museum is separate and is right next door with a nice cafe. However you have to pay museum entry fee to get into the cafe.

The museum is nothing to do with the airfield so cannot give you PPR etc.

The lift from Breighton depends on whether there are any club members there and whether they want to give a stranger a lift.

I would recomend dropping into Breighton, refueling (quite a good price) then after looking around, if no one offers a lift to the pub then flying 5 mins over to Sherburn and lunching there

DJ

Gertrude the Wombat

3rd May 2009, 16:40

Finally got to do the trip today, went to Sherburn.

And annoyed someone on leaving.

I called "ready for departure", realising that I hadn't rembered the correct A/G speak for "I'm about to cross the hold, does anybody mind?". I saw nobody on final, and had heard nobody on the radio, and nobody made any call in response to mine. So I called "lining up" and moved towards the runway.

Then someone called "final". Bit late for me to do anything about it, as I had by now crossed the hold and was occupying the runway. So there's no way the guy on final could have landed if I'd stopped where I was, but there was a chance that if I got a move on he could land after I'd gone, so I called "taking off" and took off.

I then got told off for making someone go around. Fair enough, I probably should have spotted them and not entered the runway in the first place, even though they hadn't yet called final. But they were, I think, trying to suggest that having entered the runway, and then heard them call final after I had already entered the runway, I should have held my position so that they could land whilst I was occupying the runway.

I know you can't land on an occupied runway at a controlled airfield, but I'm not familiar with A/G operations - is this rule different? Is it OK to land after someone else has crossed the hold and then stopped?

stickandrudderman

3rd May 2009, 16:52

Did you pause long enough to listen for circuit traffic?
As long as he didn't call finals until after you've entered the runway, I'd say he's got no right to complain.
"Making someone go around" is not really possible unless your at the controls of their aircraft.
The decision to go around was entirely his and it was the correct one but that's what flying at A/G aerodromes is like. He should get used to it.
Don't beat yourself up over it.

Gertrude the Wombat

3rd May 2009, 17:04

Did you pause long enough to listen for circuit traffic?
Yes, between "ready" and "lining up", I thought that would give anyone who was on final and had forgotten to make the call a chance to do so, but no "final" call was made until after my "lining up".

Deeday

3rd May 2009, 17:48

In my inexperience, I would have swung the aircraft around and vacated the runway back onto the taxiway, provided no-one else had come up to the hold. Would that have been an option?

Gertrude the Wombat

3rd May 2009, 18:08

In my inexperience, I would have swung the aircraft around and vacated the runway back onto the taxiway, provided no-one else had come up to the hold. Would that have been an option?
Possibly. I'm afraid I didn't think of it until afterwards. Vacating back the way I've come after entering a runway is something I've never ever done before, so it's not something in my toolbox.

(It wasn't a desperately wide taxiway and might only have worked quickly enough if I'd been to one side of it, rather than in the centre where I actually was.)

Crash one

3rd May 2009, 19:16

My normal calls would be "G-xx taxiing for xx & hold" then after a lookround & seeing/hearing nothing "G-xx entering xx to line up".
I someone calls final after that it's their problem, Though I may be tempted to call them " G-zz G-xx do you have me visual at xx threshold?" as I try to duck! They may be a lot faster than you & may chew your tail in the go around/takeoff conflict. Turning round in a hurry just might put you nose to nose with someone else.
Just my twopennorth.

Edit: I have also heard urgently "Negative! Negative! one on" at our A/G field, after a "final" call. So I think the rule still applies.

JohnRayner

3rd May 2009, 19:42

Anything on the field has priority over anything coming into land as far as I know (apart from emergencies, I'd have thought!). Although you could turn round and taxi back, why should you? You made you intentions known at the appropriate juncture. They called final after this. Their problem.

The only way I can see you being justifiably sheepish is if you only turned you radio on just prior to lining up, thus missing any previous calls from said craft on final. Otherwise nah, not your fault.

A/G stations rely almost entirely on the sensibilities and communication skills of individual pilots. Sadly not entirely infallible by any means

Gertrude the Wombat

3rd May 2009, 20:03

The only way I can see you being justifiably sheepish
Well, it's possible that I might have seen them if I'd been better at looking out, even though they hadn't called final, that's the only thing I think I ought to feel sheepish about.

Crash one

3rd May 2009, 21:06

Anything on the field has priority over anything coming into land as far as I know (apart from emergencies, I'd have thought!).

I wouldn't think that were true, a/c on final should take priority over all else shirley? Though as has been said "it's injun territory outside CAS, keep yr powder dry & yr eyes open".

Well, it's possible that I might have seen them if I'd been better at looking out, even though they hadn't called final, that's the only thing I think I ought to feel sheepish about.

Iv'e not flown out of an ATC field since GFT.:oh:

sapperkenno

3rd May 2009, 21:36

Sherburn are big on EVERYONE joining over head, and nobody swooping in straight onto final, so it's unlikely he just came outta nowhere (honest guv'). As you most likely taxied out on frequency, you should have been able to hear that character making calls for "overhead descending", "downwind", "base" and "final". If he didn't, then that's his problem.

I don't buy the turn around and exit the runway theory. Actually it's one of the silliest things I've ever heard, no offence. What else would you consider doing, add full power and run off the side of the runway, just so someone can land?! It must take all of 25-30 seconds from entering the runway to being well out of the way, so I think you were just unlucky to get a "flapper" who probably heard you, saw you, then panicked when he could have easily continued and landed safely behind you.

Most likely it was some miserable old sod who noticed you were an "outsider" and wanted to give you a hard time. He probably kept his speed up on final just to be aggressive and make a point. If he wanted to go around from 3-400 feet, that's his choice. So while I'm not recommending landing on the back of someone, I wouldn't bin an approach just because someone's entered a runway. If the guy in fronts wheels aren't off the runway before I start to flare, then I'd worry. :eek:

In all my time at Sherburn (on and off for 10 or so years) their A/G was mostly a chat frequency anyway, and "correct" radio procedures (of the sort I experienced at Thruxton, Old Sarum, Blackbushe etc) were often lacking. I think you gave the guy plenty of warning from your "ready" call, so he should have spoken up then.

Don't let that put you (or anyone else) off from going back there though!

flybymike

3rd May 2009, 23:39

Landing aircraft have priority. However, if he declared "finals" and then immediately reckoned that he had to go around because you entered the runway , then it would appear that his "finals" call was far too late. If he had called finals in good time on a proper full circuit, then you should not have created a problem for him. It is hardly reasonable to criticise someone who lines up having cleared the conventional approach path visually, only to find another aircraft making making some sort of egg shaped swooping circuit and only calling finals when almost at the theshold.

Ringway Flyer

4th May 2009, 08:36

We went to Sherburn for the 1st time on Saturday. The radio does leave a bit to be desired, but no better or worse than a lot of other GA fields that we've been to. The 1st call was answered with the runway in use and the QFE. However no other calls were answered, so we just did a standard overhead join, with calls as appropriate, landed, and found somewhere to park. The cafe was OK, and on departure we asked for a radio check and airfield info, which we received. After that it was back to blind calls.

All in all, a friendly place with good grub. We'll certainly go back one day.

Regarding Elvington, they only seem to man the 'phone during the week, so calling on a Saturday morning won't work! I spoke to someone during the week and had approval to visit on the Saturday. When we arrived, there was no response to our calls on the radio, so I did a circuit with a low approach and overshoot 1st to have a look at it. We then landed and back-tracked, wondering where we should park up. After a few moments, we observed an old pickup truck with an amber light on approaching us. I slowed down, and then it turned round and went back the way he'd come.... A follow me vehicle, perhaps? It was indeed just that!

After securing the aircraft we walked the few hundred yards to the museum and enjoyed a good 4 hours there before returning to base.

I hope you'll come and have another trip up north, Wombat, we're usually a pretty friendly bunch.... :ok:

RF

goatface

4th May 2009, 12:24

Sherburn is a great place to visit for food, except Mondays.

and that's the other really irritating thing about Sherburn, **** food on Monday, great the rest of the week...:p

ShyTorque

4th May 2009, 14:14

How long after his "final" call did he go around? If it was less than about forty five seconds, he either:

A) Went round early (I would be happy to continue with "one on" until about 200 feet agl in a fixed wing).

Or

B) Called final too late.

Every pilot has to go around sometimes, it shouldn't be a major issue for a competent and reasonable pilot with a reasonable ego.

slamdunk

4th May 2009, 20:05

I happen to know that the aircraft on final was a pre solo student with an experienced instructor practicing flapless circuits. The students calls may have been late but would have been made and a final call was made after the ready for departure call - so you must have missed this. The student would be instructed to go around at 300ft if the runway is not clear.

No big deal though - we all make mistakes, sometimes we fail to see aircraft on approach (especially when they are lower than you expect to see them - flapless - or perhaps higher as in glide approaches), it is a training airfield with lots of non standard/normal approaches. But you made your calls and the student made a safe and timely go-around.

Just a note on A/G radio. There is no requirement for response to any calls other than those requesting airfield information. All other calls are effectively made blind and are for the purposes of other pilots in the facinity of the airfield. If other A/G airfields choose to respond to such calls that's up to them but is not a requirement. Everything is at the pilots discretion and hense all the more important that we all use our eyes and ears. I know this is disconcerting to those more used to controlled airfields but its all part of aviations rich tapistry.

eltonioni

4th May 2009, 20:53

The radio does leave a bit to be desired,

The 1st call was answered with the runway in use and the QFE. However no other calls were answered, so we just did a standard overhead join, with calls as appropriate, landed, and found somewhere to park. The cafe was OK, and on departure we asked for a radio check and airfield info, which we received. After that it was back to blind calls.

Sounds like perfect A/G to me.

Heaven forbid that anyone might take their life in their hands and land when the office staff have gone home. ;)

Gertrude the Wombat

4th May 2009, 21:06

The students calls may have been late but would have been made and a final call was made after the ready for departure call - so you must have missed this.
I'm sorry but I simply don't believe this. I believe the calls went as follows:

Me: "ready for departure"

Wait a while, nobody said anything.

Me, having seen nothing on the approach, as I crossed the hold: "lining up".

Them: "final"

Me, following logic described earlier "taking off"

Them: "thanks very much, you just made us go around"

Me: "very sorry, didn't see anyone, didn't hear anyone"

Them: "we called final after you called lining up"

Me: "but I'd already crossed the hold by then"

If they are now remembering that they called final before I called "lining up" then that's not what I heard at the time and that's not what they said at the time. Or, of course, maybe they're referring to a different incident.

How long after his "final" call did he go around? If it was less than about forty five seconds
Lots less. Not sure how long really, but might have been as little as five seconds, I really don't think it was more than twenty seconds.

sometimes we fail to see aircraft on approach (especially when they are lower than you expect to see them - flapless
That may indeed have contributed to my failure to see them. On my own approach, with full flaps, I was concentrating (amongst other things) on not getting too low with respect to that tree; I probably wouldn't have thought to look for anyone even lower than I had been!
Just a note on A/G radio. There is no requirement for response to any calls other than those requesting airfield information. All other calls are effectively made blind and are for the purposes of other pilots in the facinity of the airfield.
Yes indeed. I'd hoped that my "ready" call would provoke a resonse from any conflicting traffic, such as a "late base" or "turning final" call from someone who hadn't yet called "final", but no such call came. I can however appreciate that a student concentrating on other things might not have thought to make such a response, and that the instructor might not have thought it appropriate to intervene just then.

JohnRayner

4th May 2009, 21:12

we called final after you called lining up

If that's the gist of the conversation then fear not.

"thanks very much, you just made us go around"

Ermmm, thanks for telling me where you were when it mattered most?

The fact that a flying instructor was on board at the time imho upsets me just a little bit more.

JR

Gertrude the Wombat

4th May 2009, 21:44

For the avoidance of doubt, things would almost certainly had gone better had I not failed, for whatever reason, to see the other aircraft, for which I apologise.

The question I was trying to ask was: "when I became aware of the other aircraft, after having crossed the hold line, was there any point in my stopping rather than proceeding to take off?"

The clear answer I'm hearing is "no, an occupied runway is an occupied runway at an A/G airfield just like it is at an ATC airfield, so if you had stopped they couldn't, shouldn't and wouldn't have landed anyway".

That wasn't the impression I got from the instructor. I got the impression that he had wanted me to stop, on the taxiway but past the hold line, so that he could land anyway.

ShyTorque

4th May 2009, 21:47

Seems to me the worst part of the whole episode was the unprofessional rejoinder over the RT by the instructor. A pre-solo student must be able to go around safely from any type of approach so it was good practice for him/her with an instructor on board.

Pilotdom

5th May 2009, 10:23

No point beating yourself up about this gertrude. I have flown from Sherburn for around 5 years now. Ok, you didn't see the aircraft on final, it is often hard to spot aircraft on final, what runway was in use? 24 is especialy difficult to see aircraft on final. If it was 29, thats not bad but they are still missable. You entered the active, and at that point the aircraft on final has to make the decision to go around or not. Your turning back off the active onto the taxiway is a non starter, I wouldn't even try. What if something goes wrong? Far better a go around than a prop strike or other incident. The instructor or student should have kept there mouths shut in my opinion, especially on a go-around and your take-off which requires alot of concentration. Last thing you want is an insult coming through your headset. Had I been the CFI, I would have been having words with the instructor/student on landing. Not professional, and not becoming of an instructor!

mightynimbus

5th May 2009, 15:27

Gerturde, no big deal, no harm done, perhaps things could have been done differently on both sides. - mopve on and worry about important things, not trivial ones.

Get over yourself, if you don't know how to do 'airmanship' at an A/G field, maybe you should be having some instructor time yourself!

sapperkenno

5th May 2009, 18:56

A good thing I've heard here in the US (as you all shudder!) on "unicom" frequencies (similar to A/G, but where 1 frequency may be in use at 4+ fields) sounds like this:

Aircraft at hold: "Coolidge traffic (name of airport, not required in UK as it's obvious, and there's only one frequency at each field), Bonanza '345 holding short runway 23, anybody on base or final, please advise, Coolidge." (field name said again in case you missed it the first time)

A good idea, which gives people chance to speak up. Don't you think?

What's wrong with saying something like that if in doubt?! ie, "G-OE holding short 29, anyone on base or final please advise." Then, if you don't hear ought, cross the hold (call lining up/taking off etc) and do one! At least this way, you're covering your ass.

Just my tuppence worth, and if I'm ever back in the UK, you'll hear me using that phraseology on A/G if there's any doubt.