ATC History

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

Is she still with us does anyone know? These people vanish and then suddenlt one finds that they passed on quietly, x years ago.

ZOOKER.... Colin Fone??

[Vercingetorix]

Brian thanks for that
a few from the old Satcc on the EGLL north side knew her both as an ATCer and as a Dan Dare capt.

Happy days.

Cheers

[Brian 48nav]

Bren, I've 'PMed' a guy who is exDan to see if he knows.
All the best Brian

[ZOOKER]

Hi Bren,
Never new Colin Fone, but there was a chap worked for BMA as a flight despatcher in the office across from the ATC FBU. Blonde hair, I think his name was Paul and I believe he became an ATCO at EGLL, in the mid 80s.

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

OK.. Colin was at Luton before moving north. He has retired now. Also does a lot of flying.

[almost professional]

Colin started at EMA just after me in 1990-very happily retired and yes still flying as much as he can.
On a sadder note Ray Murmann passed away last week, funeral is on Thursday, trying to let as many of his Ex colleagues know as possible.

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

Thanks for that. Colin and I were on watch together abroad in the late 60s. Saw him a few weeks back - still looks only 30 the ratbag!

[chevvron]

This Yvonne Pope you're on about, was she also Yvonne Sintis who used to fly the GW-NM-PF budgies in c1972?

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

Yes, that's her T.

[2 sheds]

Yvonne's surname - SINTES. Plenty on t'interweb about her.

2 s

[Lon More]

Before i left for Euro, at the end of the 60's, there were a couple of female cadets in the same digs in Bournemouth. One, Scottish(?) went to Bristol i believe; the other was going out with Nigel Greene.
I previously had the privilege of training Pete Withers on ATCA duties at LATCC when he first joined. Let's just say he failed to impress. He was probably also unique in being charged with dangerous driving and speeding on a push-bike.

[chevvron]

I think Nigel married a Val (Dyer?) who was an ATCO.

[Foxy Loxy]

Apart from HD, did anyone here work with John Rymill at LL?
I know HD did, he told me that!

[Brian 48nav]

Yes I did, I joined his watch when I started at LL in 86. John moved onto Thames a while later. IIRC he retired c94. A gentleman, in both senses!

Yvonne Pope

My contact tells me she is still on 'the perch' and a member of the Dan' Association. He has contact details for anyone who needs them.

BW

[India 99]

Me too . . . D watch LL circa 1976 and beyond . . with Jack Hollis as skipper.

Totally agree with Brian . . JR > a true gent and a scholar in both senses :ok:

. . . and also Stephanie (mentioned earlier) . . Ahhhh themswerethedays


99:cool:

[Minesthechevy]

<< did anyone here work with John Rymill at LL?>>

(Raises hand timidly) Yessir, me sir..... and on teh same watch...

[Minesthechevy]

I remember working SFD with Pete Withers one day - he got into it with a frog on the other end of the line over separation. I heard him say (heatedly) to the frog 'We have a letter of agreement......' and then he turned to me and said (crestfallen) that the frog had told him 'he spat on your letter of agreement......'

[Brian 48nav]

Are you the Charlton Athletic supporter?

BW

[xpz67]

I worked with Trudy Hollis for a long time when we were on B Watch at LATCC, so did Jack as crew chief.

The last I heard from them was a few years ago but I know he is on this list and does post a few answers.

My question to him is, why did I learn all the bloody answers to the 200 questions on the annual validation quiz but he never asked me a question?

On the same subject another examiner only asked the same question. What is CAVOK and you got three attempts at the answer!

Going back to my book on the history of ATC in the UK. You will be pleased to hear that I have been rejected by numerous publishers because I will not remove the names who caused the deaths of so many aircrews when they would not embrace or accept that some organisation was needed on the ground to help bomber crews to find and land at a safe airfield.

On one night 43 bombers and crews crashed and lost their lives because there was nothing available to help them.

I have all the information and proof to name names. I also have the response from Churchill when he knew what had happened.

Things have not changed. ATC has been the unwanted child of too many ministries who have no idea of what we are doing now and what happened in the past.

If you want to contribute to telling the true story of ATC. Please get in touch.

I do want to contact those who took part in the early years of ATC after the war. Why was the first London centre called the Listed building? Because it was raised up using railway sleepers to keep it level.

Why do we have west bounds levels as even and those opposite as odds? It goes back to 1939 in the US.

Why were the early airways called Green one etc. I have the maps and evidence.

If you have any knowledge or contacts on the subject, I would love to interview them.

I want to tell the whole history of the British ATC system. I can't do it without your help. So please, contribute whatever you can whoever it small you may think it is and it will place another piece in the jigsaw.

JP.

[Helen49]

Yvonne Sintes was a skipper on the HS748 in the early 70's based at Luton and on the BAC111 in the late 70's pre-retirement.

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

xpz67.... Sadly, Jack Frith is no longer with us; he died earlier this year in France after a short illness.

<<Why were the early airways called Green one etc. I have the maps and evidence.>>

I don't know why they were given colours but that system was still in use until relatively recently; certainly during my time at Heathrow.

Certainly some bizarre things have happened in British ATC and I'm not as confident of it now as I used to be. When Heathrow is on easterly operations, departures via Compton have to work the South Director for climb through the inbounds. The Air Controller used to phone S. Dir for a heading immediately before take-off and a tactical heading, varying from 220-280 would be issued. Recently, a "standard" heading of 220 was introduced for all such deps with no reference to the radar controller. I'm sure there are good reasons for this but I WAS told that one reason was that the electronic flight progress strips in Heathrow Tower do not allow for such things!!! Wonder how this magic system would have coped when cross runways were in use and the Air Controllers would separate outbounds by using stepped climbs, etc? Hopefully someone from Heathrow will say I'm wrong..

[Jay Doubleyou]

Zooker,

Interesting that your list has, proportionally, so many ex No3 Cadets, Terry, Gill, John. East Midlands, particularly, did very well out of us and our determination not to be LATCC "fodder"

Heathrow Director,

Sorry to hear about Jack Frith, very likeable guy, and a great host (with Trudi) to the No3 Course reunion in France in 1993 (tempus fugit, not 'arf)

[India 99]

Are you the Charlton Athletic supporter?

Brian . . . Not I sir . . . Palace for moi . . .


Sorry I forgot the thread last time >

Sue Clifford was also on D watch LL at the time and I am sure Bren will be able to furnish her start date as it was a bit before me. She trained me along with others (long before the heady days of OJTI' s and associated dosh).

Judith (Judy) Chisholm was also about at the time . . before leaving to realise her dream of a career in flying (DeBeers) and her epic achievement(s) incl . . Fastest Solo Flight by a Woman both from England to Australia and Around the World in 1980?

As to the other ATCO's on D watch at the time . . .

Chris Prentice,
Chris Harris,
John Rymill
Paul Louden,
Mick Dryden (JJ retired),
Tony Painton (JJ retired)
John Cant (still flying I hope and enjoying the Guinness)
Colin McClelland (Ditto)
John Altersky (still owes me a fiver but lovely dogs to wake you up for second half)
John Kiernan (JK - Del Boy etc <No officers you cannot come into The Tower he is not ere>)
And many others . . but the brain storm cells are fading on this B**** diet.

Cheers to all

99:cool:

[BOAC]

Why were the early airways called Green one etc. I have the maps and evidence - cue Bill Gunston?

[chevvron]

Even Millwall finished higher than Palace this season; I went to Wembley on monday but Reading failed to get promotion.

[xpz67]

Hi all.

When it was decided to introduce "airways", 3 routes were first proposed.

Discussion groups and every manner of committee got a say on the subject. One route was agreed to by everyone and on the presentation map it was coloured green. The one which was OK'd by some and objected too by others was coloured yellow and the one that all objected too was coloured red.

After alterations were made to the route objected to by all taking it out to Ibsley it was approved but still retained the name Red one.

Additionally, it was thought that you couldn't have an airway called Yellow one it was changed to Amber.

That is shortened version of what happened but the paperwork relating to the subject makes interesting reading.

I have the presentation map.

Cheers.

JP.

[Brian 48nav]

Bob and Sally Hillyer have just arrived to stay for the weekend - I think he and I are going to bore the the girls f***less with all our stories!

'Bunny' Gunston was at Brum' when he and I both trained there - what a scream. 2 or 3 LATCC Atcos ( Malcolm Austin being one name that springs to mind) had been on the same coastal crew as him and he was just as entertaining then!

BW

[India 99]

Chevvron

Even Millwall finished higher than Palace this season

. . . Agreed . . . The Eagles have done better . . Ho Hum:rolleyes:


BW

Bob and Sally Hillyer have just arrived to stay for the weekend - I think he and I are going to bore the the girls f***less with all our stories!
I can't believe you just said that . . . remember "You do not have to say anything BUT it may harm your defence if you do not mention when questioned something which you later rely on in court, anything you do say may be given in evidence" . .

. . and please have a good weekend and maybe say high to Bob from moi.

99:cool:

[peatair]

If it assists your history project, PAR was withdrawn at Manchester Airport in 1974 when Ground Movement Control was introduced. The airport used the Type 2000 PAR with its 2 screens - touchdown to 3 miles and touchdown to 10 miles final. I was a student in 1971 on one of the last PAR courses at Bournemouth run by the late Jack Manning.

[ZOOKER]

"I was a student in 1971 on one of the last PAR courses at Bournemouth run by the late Jack Manninig".
Ah, but peatair, can you remember where you were a decade later, on or about the morning of the 17th of February 1981?

[xpz67]

Good evening ladies and gentlemen. I use both terms in their loosest possible sense.

Here is another bit of completely useless information.

Why are westbounds evens and eastbounds the opposite.

Before WW2 the busiest airport in the US was Newark. They experienced all sorts of problems and to cut the story short to reduce the number of airmisses they decided that all aircraft on a westerly heading would fly odd thousands of feet and the reverse for eastbounds. I will ignore the requirement to fly east or west of the on-line beacon as that is a very long story

The choice of these altitudes did not work well as many flew at the wrong levels. It was then discovered that all the west bound streets in Newark occupied by pilots had even numbers and the eastbound the odds.

They then changed the system to accomodate that and the airmisses dropped to almost nothing.

Another silly bit of ATC history. Howver, it makes up what we have today.

May the fart be with you.

JP.

[Brian 48nav]

Anybody know any Crystal Palace supporters wot' worked at LL?

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

Wasn't Crawford that way afflicted?

Which, of course, brings up a football story:

"Col" Harry Richardson Approach Sup when Ernie Abery comes to take over. Harry does the handover then, to make smalltalk, says to Ernie "I see QPR is going down". Ernie walks across to the Met TV and studies it intently.....

[ZOOKER]

HD, love it!
Ernie was on my final selection board at CAA house, along with John Page (from ATC SL1), and Pete Perry, (Chief Officer EGCC).

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

Ernie was in my interview for the Civil Service Commission and it was obvious that he had clued himself up quite well about my previous ATC unit abroad. He was a good supervisor, although sitting typing all night wearing his pinstripe suit was a bit OTT!

[Eric T Cartman]

@ Brian 48nav
Anybody know any Crystal Palace supporters wot' worked at LL?
Yes, Mick Dryden. He took me to Selhurst Park for a round of an Anglo-Italian Cup competition in 1971 when they drew 1-1 with Inter Milan & later to White Hart Lane where we ended up mixed with Spurs supporters :-)
DJM

[chevvron]

You mixed with Spurs supporters and you're still alive?
Went to the Emirates about 2 years ago and the Spurs supporters arriving were corrallled in a ring of police vans!

[songbird29]

Why 40 minutes break

I don't know whether this is still contained in their recommendations, but IFATCA put forward the requirement for a break of 40 minutes between two radar sessions.

In the late sixties/early seventies when IFATCA took form, the Dutch were quite active in its Standing Committee VI, on human factors. The Dutch successfully proposed a canteen break of 40 minutes minimum, and a maximum radar session of 2 hours.

The 40 minutes pause was based on the time necessary to play a then popular card game (chasing of hearts - hartenjagen). Provided all four players knew well how to play, the game up and down to sixty points could be finished in roundabout 40 minutes.

Fortunately, it was also possible to give a mathematical reasoning to the case, which made it acceptable to management. Three times 40 minutes makes exactly two hours. Duty roster preparation was made easier with the 40 minutes rule as well.

[chevvron]

Two more ladies to waken the memory 'glands'!!
Lesley Austin and Maria Quinn.
I used to meet with them both on GATCO business, Lesley doing a stint as London Region President at one time. Maria was on about 21 or 22 course, Lesley a bit earlier, 'cos Haydn Roberts told me a tale about meeting her and he was on No 1 Course. There was another Lesley (Butler?) who was at Glasgow when I left (on about 24 Course). I believe she failed her aerodrome training there, became an instructor with Glasgow Flying Club, and was tragically killed in a Cherokee which dived into a loch just after takeoff from a private strip.

[Loki]

Chevvron

Indeed, it was GAZAI. At the time I was sharing a house with Leslie (sp?). Grim times.

[Brian 48nav]

Anyone 'idented' our friend yet?

How about another clue 99 - did you do a little time on the wings at LATCC on C Watch before going to LL?

[vapourer]

Not everything fits completely but my guess is that he's a man from Eltham

[India 99]

BW . . . sorry never did LATCC other than as a visitor . . a frequent one back in the days of the radar calibration unit.

I recall once drinking at The Cherry Tree and then The Railway Arms after a hard day in the ops room . . my colleague left me at the station just up the road where I merrily boarded the train home towards the metropolis in the daylight . . . only to awake to find myself facing the other way somewhere godforsaken in the darkness . . SH1T :sad:


Vapourer . . . sorry Nope . . . I was born in Thornton Heath and left London circa 1970. You are maybe thinking of Sid ?

Surely PB or Pickey have a master EGLL list ?
(I gave my book away before having a chance to read it . . to a good friend who had spent a while in SDH (Salisbury District Hospital) burns unit having survived a post-crash fire in the Pa28 (EFATO)
Very sadly . . . one of the 3 POB did not make it.

TC
Regards

99:cool:

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

I have the master list - I wrote it for the book!

[India 99]

HD . . . I must be there somewhere.


I recall cycling from EGLL to Paris for Guide Dog No3 named "Lucy" . .
. . . If only I could still do so now !!


I have been more closely working with WH 99 these days . . ? :ok:


ID by PM at some point . . if you get close.


TC
Regards

99:cool:

[Brian 48nav]

Well maybe you have sent me barking up the wrong tree (or barking mad!), I've been through 'The Book' and found 5 ATCOs who started at LL in '76. Of course I've assumed you were an ATCO and not an ATCA - or is it back to the history again?

Mike Male I think is too young - he's younger than his old mate Bob Hillyer who is not yet 57.
Richard Harrison came onto LATCC C Watch when I was there, '76 ish.
Steve Lambert - bit of a footie man, don't know his age.
Brandon Chapman - ?????
and finally the lovely Wendy MacD - Crystal Palace fan ??? - age could be right.
Should Salibury District Hospital ring a bell? I used to go so often to Rheumatology they almost gave me my own parking slot.

Come on Bren, it's down to you!

Brian Wildey

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

No idea mate. Wendy rarely goes near a computer and she is an avid Norwich supporter.

[India 99]

OOOps . . . my mistake it was of course TB10 Tobago . . ex HH

(In my logbook) . . apologies chaps.


No, not the Lovely Wendy . . . (Sorry John etc)
I recall that I may have done my APR course with Wendy before going to PF for endorsement . . and of course worked many a D1, D2, D3, D4 shift with her at LL later on :ok:

Don't believe Brandon, Steve or Rich flew still.

The list . . ? did Steve H not also start in 76

99:cool:

[xpz67]

It' me again with more rubbish.

When the first London centre opened at Uxbridge to rule the Metropolitan control zone it was called a "listing buiding". It was not because it had any value as a building but beacause to keep it level it had to be raised up at one end using railway sleepers.

Even more rubbish to follow.

JP.

[India 99]

Evenin JP . . .

Bit like the Scottish Centre Mk 2 then (after jolly old Redbrae and Gailes Radar - Type 7 - Type 14 - Type 7 - Type 14 etc ?) . . .

Oh no . . that was on a coal mine if we are to believe the rumours ?

Pardon . . Time for a glas of mulled wine.

Cheers
99:cool:

[xpz67]

Hello again.

If we ever loose these little bits of information we will never know the real history of our ATC service.

There is so much that needs to be exposed and without your help I will not be able to do it.

During the early years of WW2 so many of the high officers who had flown during and after WW1 would not consider a that a person on the ground who would be able to help bomber crews to land at a safe airfield.

The official RAF history is very clever in covering up those who cost so many lives.

I have named them in my book so imagine the difficulties I have had getting it published. They don't want to know about all the dirty linen, but I want the truth to be told.I need all the help you can provide.

Help me in telling the truth.

JP.

[Brian 48nav]

Fresh (!!!!) back from a cycle ride in the Wye Valley,back to the detective work.

The biggest clue has to be flying then - I've discounted Cossie, John Cant and Roy Hendry cos' they are all about my age.

Sid would fit the bill, apart from the footie team - sure he is The Charlton supporter.
Barnesy didn't start at LL until '82 ( by the way Hobbsie was c'81 ex ScATCC).
Jez 'Dear Boy' Cooke, c'81.

I feel I'm getting close,
the clues don't fit Paul Wilson, the secret spotter so I believe.

Hows about Keefie Miller?

Otherwise it's back to the drawing board!

BW

[Brian 48nav]

The RAF was way behind the times between the wars; everything being run by the '2-winged Master Race'. I don't say that as a form of envy, having been a nav, but as a statement of how it was.

Commissioned pilots would do one flying tour and then have to choose a 'specialisation' such as engineering,navigation, instructing etc. In fact the only other branches were Medical,Padre type ones.

I've just finished a great book by Dickie Richardson, entitled 'Man is not Lost'. He joined as a pilot in 1933 and then four years later went onto a nav' course. He wrote the AP1234 Navigation Manual, bit like a Part 2, in 1941.

Because navigation had been poorly understood and taught it meant at the start of WW2 virtually no senior officers knew anything about it, this meant the necessary aids to help Bomber and Coastal Commands find their targets and their airfields on their return, were not in service until 1943.

So JP you can see why ATC was late being developed.

I gather that it is almost back to the bad old days now as everyone relies on GPS - can that fail, I don't know? What happens if it does?

BW

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

Brian.. Have you seen the book The Complete Air Navigator by my old boss Pathfinder Bennett? Back in those dark, Dalton Computer, days it was the standard reference but I suspect things have come on a bit since then!

Still nothing on I99. He has sent me some clues, but they mean nothing to me..

[India 99]

BW

Oh Dear . . I'm off to rehab again shortly . . but in response to yours . .

> as for Chris, John and Roy . . yep they flew a bit (especially C & J) and both have a few years on me . . hope they are all doin OK. :ok:

> John, Al and Captain Cooke . . all arrived after moi (in 76), some came to D Watch and they all flew a bit yes but they are not moi I am afraid.

> PW . . not a lot of people knew that :rolleyes:

> Kieth . . bumped into him again when he was in SRG . . nope.

Steve Hall circa 76 (not Hobsie) went on to KK . . so not him either although we met a couple of years back on the A36 . . !!? :=

So . . whilst "getting warmish - Yes Atco " a few more leads to follow.

Oh . . and not M ingles should you be looking at the list and likewise D Shaw who did not fly so far as I can remember.

Regards

99:cool:

[Eric T Cartman]

India 99 ident = GN perchance ? :hmm:

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

The one with the beer-bottle specs?

[Brian 48nav]

Eric, I thought that except he had already left LL when I arrived.Mind you I think the use of 'old bean' which I first heard Trickett using, originated with either him or his 'opo' (name escapes me) who went to KK. They came through Stornoway when I was there, '81?, in a light a/c on their way back to PB.

Bren,
My intended's parents bought me a copy for my 21st in Sept'67,having given me his old Zenit SLR a couple of months before. They were determined I would stick to the plan and marry their 18yr old daughter in December and whisk her away to Singapore. Freedom for them was looming!

It's still on the shelf, Bennett's book that is, not my lovely wife who is making lots of cooking noises in the kitchen!

I think 'Complete Air Navigator' proved that civil aviation was ahead of the RAF in that respect then.

Brian

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

Nice story Brian.. From my point of view, it was just a shame that AVM DCTB was such an arrogant, detestable human (?) being. I've no idea what it must have been like to serve under him - worse than hell I imagine!

[Lon More]

Back in 1971 the training section and the original computer for Shanwick were about the only things in Atlantic House.
The building and the fire escapes had separate foundations and the building was sinking faster than the stairs resulting in the doors being changed to open inwards and the increasing gap at the bottom (already about a foot at that time) being boarded up.

another name from the past. The Danair Pilots' Delight, Daphne Donkin

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

Was she related to Chug A Lug?

[Lon More]

probbably the first to do it:\

[Brian 48nav]

Now we've found who I99 is, what about Eric T Cartman?

[cleo]

Is he not the fat kid who lives in South Park?
(South Park School, in my neck of the woods is attended by children with special needs) :E

[Eric T Cartman]

cleo said children with special needs
That sums me up quite well, I guess :}

1st clue - D Watch EGLL 1970-72 ;)

[10W]

I'll abstain from this part of the quiz :)

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

Eric spent a while on oil rigs I believe....

[Lon More]

Anyone remember Stan Boyle from Prestwick or Brussels.
We used to hide behind doors, trying not to laugh when some poor foreigner was trying to get info out of him
He had a broad Glaswegian accent, compounded with a cleft palate, and although he was a great bloke he should never have been in ATC. I was his translator in Brussels as none of the Belgians understoood a word, surprisingly. One day, in mid summer, Stan asked our Supervisor, Luc v.d. Auwera, "Can I a aa oo eek ee?" Seeing I was busy Luc said, "Should be OK" I'd heard what Stan asked and kept well out of the way for the rest of the shift.
Next morning, " Where's Stan, Lon?"
""Glasgow. He asked politely and you gave him two weeks leave.

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

Like the bloke I met once; I asked him what he did and he said:
"I'm a G-G-G-G-G-G-G-G-C A controller"

[Brian 48nav]

Reminds me of a co-pilot on Hercs once; doing a radio check.

For some reason 'twiggy' decided to go all the way from 1 to 10, fine but on the way down went ' 10,8,7,9 5,4,6.2,3,1.

Wondered why the rest of the crew were in hysterics.

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

Sounds like the Irish Bill Haley, Brian... "One, six, nine o'clock, four o'clock rock"

[India 99]

To be fair . . . I will sit this one out Ta

"No Comment"

99:cool:

[GTBlackline]

I remember Stan Boyle, and enjoyed the story about his two weeks leave.

I used to know Stan when he lived near Newton Mearns and was a member of the old Whitecraigs Rugby and Squash Club on the Southside of Glasgow, now since "redeveloped". In 1987 I was friends with and the same age as his daughter Julie and always wondered if he really was an ATCO, now 24 years later I finally know that he was - stone the crows. Haven't spoken to his daughter since the last time I saw her in 1996 and lost all track with the family back then. Really nice people.

[Brian 48nav]

Well the fairer sex memories seem to have died, well the ones that are printable! How about a new theme.

Who had Licence Number 1, over to you JP, and what's the earliest number that any ppruner has?

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

I believe #1 was held by Jimmy Jeffs? My original was 1018, issued around 1968ish... They dished out new ones while we were at LATCC with different numbers.

[Bring back Tridents]

Mine was 2813.

[ZOOKER]

2814 Here.

[ex-EGLL]

2447 is mine

ex-egll

[Atcham Tower]

Mine is 1787. One of my LCEs used to say "Is that the date it was issued?"

[Numpo-Nigit]

When I joined ATC as a fresh-faced ATCAIII at Gatwick, the Board of Trade Chief Officer was John Graham. I recall being told that he held ATC licence #2. In his life prior to joining ATC he had been, amongst other things, a pre-war racing driver at places such as Brooklands. He retired in 1968.

[oldandbald]

This could start a whole flood of replies! My original was 1614 ( No 6 Cadet Course started November 1965 ) OMG -makes you think!

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

I found my original UK one.. 1018, dated 22nd December, 1969. However, my very first one was dated 10th April 1967 - IAL ATC Certificate # 292.

[folkyphil]

JIMMY JEFFS

Jimmy Jeffs was, indeed, the holder of ATC Licence No.1. He served at Croydon before the 2nd World War, and became Commandant of Prestwick before moving to Heathrow.

Jimmy's son is alive and well and "has lots of interesting stuff about his father", according to Jimmy's granddaughter who happens to be married to an old friend of mine.

I hope to arrange a meeting with the family in order to view the documents and possibly reproduce them on this thread.

Phil H.

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

Fascinating stuff, Phil.

[MONT BLANC]

2806 is my old license number.

2813 and 2814 must have been at Hurn at the same time :ok:

MB

[Loki]

Can't find my original licence, or anything with it's number on. I did turn up my ATC Certificate (that I was given during my cadetship)....number 550.

[IFPS man]

and mine was 2796......

[Bern Oulli]

1834 - No. 11 Cadet Course ,aka No. 1 Student Cadet Course which became Nos. 11 & 12 Cadet. I don't believe there ever was a No. 2 Student Cadet Course.

[Mr_Grubby]

For heaven’s sake guys, is this going to degenerate into a ‘my licence number is lower than yours’ thread.

It’s boring. Obviously all the old buggers are going to have the lowest numbers.

Can’t we get back on thread of ATC History ? Much more interesting.

Clint.
(by the way, my licence no. was 2429):ugh:

[Lon More]

Bunch of newbies!! Mine is number 71 There are more licensing authorities than the Campaign Against Aviation
We didn't actually need numbers then; we all knew each other :cool:

[SilentHandover]

I seem to recall, from an Adam Hart-Davis documentary, that ATCO licence No 1 is on display in the museum at Croydon Airport.

I have not had any free 1st Sundays of the month to confirm this.

SH

[Brian 48nav]

It's all my fault, I started this! Waiting for JP to feed us some more riveting ATC history.

My licence no. is quite boring but it would be ( mildly ) interesting to know the earliest surviving number - while awaiting the outcome of the Fabregas saga!

Lon More

With that number are you sure you're only 62!

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

162 Brian....

[Loki]

His Mats part one is probably written in Latin.

[Minesthechevy]

Loki - why not?

Even Pontius had to be told where to go when he was a Pilate...


(Sorry, I'll get me coat...)

[Lon More]

His Mats part one is probably written in Latin

In Ancient Egyptian on tablet actually :)

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

I turned up some info about Jimmy Jeffs, CVO, OBE:

Born 27 January, 1900. RNAS 1917-19; Air Ministry 1919-22; ATCO Croydon Airport 1922-34; Heston 1934-37; Ch Instructor AM School of ATC 1937; Superintendent of ATC 1938; HQ Fighter Command 1939; FO6 Air Ministry 1940; Staff Officer to DCAS 1941; CO Overseas Control, Gloucester; CO Transatlantic Air Control, Prestwick; at HQ Ferry Command, Montreal 1942; British Chairman of North Atlantic Control Board; Gp Capt HQ Transport Command 1943-45; MCA 1945; Commandant Prestwick Airport 1950-56; Commandant London Airport 1957-60. US Legion of Merit.

They don't make 'em like that nowadays.....

[Brian 48nav]

But was he any good at GMC?

Just my little joke Bren, makes some of the cretins we had to suffer seem quite unqualified, think Fat Jock,Roger B etc.

[cambioso]

Aaaah,
GMC2 at 0630 on a wet, dark, and windy December morning.
Sport of Kings Brian eh????
Regards,
Jez

[Brian 48nav]

How are you my Polo playing friend? Not still charging around at your age!

What are you flying these days?

Regards Brian W

[ATCO Two]

Hey Jez, do you really have more money than the Queen? :)

[cambioso]

The Queen and I never discuss such sordid subjects one's assets.........So I have really no idea!!
Had lunch with Huggy the other day. The "Old Times" seemed so much fun.........Were they really?
Hope you're all well,
Jezza

[Brian 48nav]

Hello Keefie! - I think I'm right!

BW

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

Depends which Queen you're talking about!

[India 99]

But before we do mine is 2494 :suspect:


Very shortly . . . STS-135 Atlantis with 4 POB will be taking off for the very last time !!

. . and no doubt we all wish them a safe mission.

For some reason I cannot post attachments so unfortunately cannot post my Photograph which was taken from the LL balcony on the 05th June 1983 looking North towards Block 15 with the 10L low Go-Around (ONCE and ONLY) of the Shuttle Enterprise atop the highly converted 747 . . Brill (flyby not photo)

However, for anyone interested, I have found another which was probably taken from the QB - T2 viewing area by Howard Pain. Howard has kindly agreed to its use on this site for this purpose.

It captures both the epic event and for some of us where we spent possibly the best years of our working lives . . . ie . . . EGLL VCR and Approach Control Room, including the Balcony, from which many a "Window Job" was called :ok:

Thanks to Howard for the photograph and all who served at LL over the years.


The photo can be found here . . with thanks to Airliners.net

Photos: Boeing 747-123(SCA) Aircraft Pictures | Airliners.net (http://www.airliners.net/photo/NASA/Boeing-747-123(SCA)/1516945/M/)

If I can figure out why my permissions do not include attachments I will attach mine - any help would be much appreciated.

(The above flight was scheduled to do a lowish transit via Central London but due to bad weather few were able to see it. The duo landed as planned at EGSS and spent some time on the ground being viewed up close of which there are many photos around)

Regards to all

99
:cool:

[cambioso]

I was Air Arr (10L) that day.............Unforgettable!
Before you ask Brian........Yes I was in that day!!!
Regards,
Jez

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

Yep - great day. I was on radar just long enough to say I'd spoken to it... then I hot-footed it to the staff car park to meet Ruth and our boys in time to see it go-around...

[Minesthechevy]

<< Before you ask Brian........Yes I was in that day!!! >>

He's right, Brian, I made a note of it in my diary ........

I took two photos at LL which I remember - one of a Spitfire appearing to beat up a DLH A300 parked on G14, that was just lucky placement; and the Shuttle on the 747. They are in a box somewhere in the barn, I haven't got round to unpacking them yet.

[ZOOKER]

India 99,
thanks for posting that. A great picture featuring 3 icons of civil aviation, the Shuttle, the 747, and Heathrow tower. Great photograph.

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

Not in the same league, but anyone remember the Sunderland fly-by? I was AIR ARR on 09L and SVFR rang to see if I fancied a run by a Sunderland (what a daft question). It duly appeared on the DFTI and I cleared it for a low approach and go-around with a left turn on course for Leavesden. It vanished from the DFTI and I couldn't see it. Peering through the bins I saw it - so low that it was below the buildings on the north side. It did a left turnout over the 27R threshold and must have crossed the M4 at about 200 ft!! I was scared that everything would hit the fan... but it didn't. The AFS watch boss rang with a moan - I hadn't told them and "the lads would loved to have seen it"...

Then, of course, there were Pete Bish's Daks.. but that's another story.

[Loki]

As cambioso will verify, at EGPF we had a run of visitors, (culminating in a B52), which were persuaded to come and have a look at us....I managed an OV10 for a fly past.....after a while we got told to stop touting for traffic. It was fun while it lasted, though I think the airport authority and local residents had a different view.

[10W]

And then there was the Glasgow controller who touted a then new USAF C-23 with a punchy callsign such as TALON to come and do a flyby. He instructed the pilot to make it as low and fast as he could and then rushed up from the Approach Radar room to watch ........... a Shorts 360 trundle by at VNE :)

Nice one Shotgun ;)

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

USAF F-111s used to pop along for a quick ILS at about 2am... until one did the old dump-fuel-switch-on-reheat trick and everyone in Hounslow thought an Atom bomb had gone off. No more F-111s...

[Ayrshott]

Shorts 330( Sherpa ?) actually.....he said this was the first time he had been asked for a fly by.....

[cambioso]

And the last time!!

[windowjob]

The space shuttle/B747 fly by was certainly memorable. Coming in to work that day, all the bridges over the M4 were full of spotters who'd been there since first light.
There's quite a few piccies of it (I've got one of it parked at SS taken from above)
but how many remember the chase plane that went down 10R at the same time?

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

Not me.....

[India 99]

Hi Window Job

I've got one of it parked at SS taken from above . . . yep . . I also have that one. I think the proud BAA Ops guys dished them out to us one day in approach ?


I also have a B+W taken of the Duo with everything dangling . . believed to have been taken on short final at EGSS . . more than likely by the . . . chase plane that went down 10R at the same time


Hope you are keeping well old bean . . . still hanging from the silk ?? :ok:

99
:cool:

[windowjob]

220+ descents including a couple from an AN2. Did a display with the Royal Engineers (invited when they visited LL) from a Jet Ranger. Loads of kids around when you re-pack on the grass and had the best comment ever "how many times have you been killed mister?" :D
Been tumbled out of a Porter by Al Barnes at Nethers and had great fun.

Broken nose on one exit and other medical issues mean I no longer plummet, but do miss it.
Anyone want to buy a parachute?

[Brian 48nav]

That's what being brought up on the dangerous streets of Stockwell does for you! Makes you fearless eh Malc?

[chevvron]

Found my original licence number at last; 2282 which first became 12279 then 23752F!

[windowjob]

Fearless and daft are interchangeable for us Stockwell lads Brian!


Malcolm

[Brian 48nav]

Maybe this needs a new thread but I'll start here.

Does anyone have good knowledge of the outcome of the inquiry into the accident?

Someone on 'Military Aircrew' section here is suggesting that the aircraft was 'talked' into the ground- see 'further BOIs thread'. I believe that is complete rubbish but it would be good if someone could put the 'poster' right.
BW

[qwerty2]

VULCAN AIRCRAFT CRASH (REPORT) (Hansard, 20 December 1956) (http://hansard.millbanksystems.com/commons/1956/dec/20/vulcan-aircraft-crash-report)

Sad business. The GCA Controller later became one of my instructors at the College

[P160]

The Investigation by Dr Touch of the Ministry of Supply exonerated the GCA (PAR) Controller even though he" failed to warn the aircraft of his closeness to the ground". The actual cause of the crash was the PIC altimeter was reading 150 ft high when he was actually at ground level. Subsequant checks revealed Vulcan altimeters could be as much as 280 ft out in their readings. Weather at LHR was 8/8ths cloud at 700ft,heavy rain,2/8ths cloud at 300ft, visibilty 1,100yds.
The pilot had a Master Green instrument rating and the Heathrow breakoff height was 150ft. The No2 pilot was looking forward for the high intensity lighting and this was not visible at 300ft, on reaching his breakoff height the PIC applied full power to overshoot while the GCA Controller was talking him down in a"calm unhurried manner", a definate jolt was felt by the crew but but neither pilot was unduly disturbed thinking it equivalent to a normal landing and at worst the pilots thought a tyre had burst. Both main legs had been ripped off as they struck a ditch which in turn damaged the flying control surfaces rolling the aircraft to the right which could not be corrected. It impacted at the intersection of runways 1 & 4. The two pilots ejected but the four crew were unable to vacate the aircraft as no ejection seats were fitted for the rear crew and at 150ft, were unable to bale out and survive.

A little knowledge is dangerous and this has caused the GCA Controller to be thought partially responsible for the crash, very unfair as the whole incident was was a classic case of a series of small links of error and omission leading to a chain of disaster. It was the pilots first full GCA approach in a Vulcan, and probably the first ever by this type of aircraft in bad weather. Secondly, the GCA Controller was perfectly competant, he was not very experienced and had been talking aircraft down at LHR for three months. Thirdly, he was confronted by an aircraft that had an approach speed 15-20kts highr than contemporary civilian airliners and he tended to concentrate on directional information at the expense of elevation. I've already mentioned the altimeters error.

This from the accident report and Andrew Brookes excellent book "V-Force".

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

Sorry tale. I too was trained by the Vulcan talkdown controller and I also worked with the female tracker involved earlier in my working life. Must have been dreadful for both of them.

[Eric T Cartman]

@ windowjob
Fearless and daft are interchangeable for us Stockwell lads

Having watched the kids on the skateboard park @ the corner of Stockwell Park Walk, I'd say they exhibit both in equal measure when they come out to play ! ;)
(in case your'e wondering Malcolm, my m-in-law lived in Aytoun Road - great for spotting LL inbounds on westerlies :8)

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

My Auntie, Uncle and Cousins lived in Blair House, off Stockwell Road near the underground station. Small world eh?

[Lon More]

Would that have beeen Uncle Tony?

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

No, Auntie Cyril and Uncle Mildred...

[chevvron]

Re the Vulcan crash; I'm not sure how positional information of the aircraft was presented to the controller on these earlier GCA systems but mention of 'trackers' would indicate it was similar to the system described by Arthur C. Clarke in his autobiographical novel 'Glidepath' whereby the trackers track the aircraft using 3 'A scopes' and the controller reads the position of the aircraft from a series of dials rather than looking at a radar display as with PAR. I once had an 'Eagle Book of Aircraft' dating from the early '50s which I remember showed a photo of the 'GCA' at Heathrow and did indeed show a picture of an 'A scope'.
With this type of approach, to this day, the pilot puts his full trust in the talkdown controller hence the 'calm and unhurried' nature of the talkdown, certainly I always tried to do it this way.

[Jay Doubleyou]

I never worked a full GCA, (only Half-mile SRAs on Plessy 424), but Aldergrove still had a "Federal" (Gillfillan [?]) a wartime American GCA when I was there about 1965. Rumour had it that, when Nutts Corner closed and Civil ATC took over Aldergrove, the Divisional Tels Office forgot to asses the equipment needs until too late and that when they found they had no suitable radar, they asked the RAF to leave theirs, a mobile MPN11. The reply, "Too late, Mate, it's on the boat already" caused the old "Federal" to emerge from retirement. (To be fair, the MPN11 had several features not familiar to civil controllers including Logarithmic rather than linier PAR displays so the high priced help at Division had some real worries)
The whole GCA (Surveillance and PAR) was worked from a "train" of trucks which had to be moved and set up for each runway so a runway change was a real circus and not undertaken lightly! By "worked from" I mean literally, the "Search" and "PAR" Controllers and the "GCA Tracker" sat in a lorry trailer. The one at Aldergrove had, rumour again, been "tropicalised" for the Middle East with lots of extra holes cut in it to improve the ventilation! Just the thing at Christmas 1965 with a howling gale blowing, a foot of snow on the ground and a sub-zero OAT! No wonder the crew spent as much time as possible in the tower, and only went out when it was really necessary!
The point that this ramble is leading towards is that, on this equipment, elevation was "tracked" by a "Tracker" (no surprise there then!) this was a specially trained (and paid!) ATCA who kept a cursor centred on the aircraft response on the vertical scanning radar, this gave a read out, in feet, on a meter alongside the PAR controller's horizontal scanning display, he (always he in those days) had no direct sight of the elevation display but could pass glide-path information from the trackers read out and abort the approach if it went out of limits. The tracker had to report if there was insufficient response to track or she (usually but not always she in those days) lost contact, in that case the controller could continue, with the pilots agreement, in azimuth only with, of course, higher limits. The most dangerous thing that could happen was a Tracker following something they thought was a real response, they were, very fiercely, taught never to continue if there was any doubt. Perhaps the best encouragement to good performance was sitting a few feet to the right of an active Runway, as an authorised obstruction, and running the same risk as the Aircrew after a poor approach!
The Type 2000 PAR which remained at the London Airports for several years later, was the PAR element of the GCA remoted into the ops room, and with the Tracker replaced by an elevation display in front of the Controller, who, thankfully, was no longer burdened by outdoor clothing!

[ZOOKER]

On a school trip to Midland Radar at RAF North Luffenham, I was allowed to have a go on the 'height-finder'. I managed to get the 'level' of a Vulcan over The Wash. I think the kit used a device called a 'resolver' to obtain the aircraft's height. Had a look at the big radar too, (Type 82 maybe?). That was in '68/'69. Fuelled an interest in ATC. Result, I ended up talking to Midland as a Temporary CSC many years later. Nice folks, Midland, - always helpful. Anyone remember when they finally closed?

[chevvron]

Ah the T82. I used one at Lindholme as well as remote radars. It was 10cm non MTI with a blank area in the overhead, and strangely the famous 'Midland Radar overhead' was always bigger than other T82s like Lindholme and Watton.
Being a stacked beam receiver array, it didn't need a separate height finding radar like Sopley (T80).
Originally it was never intended for ATC use; with Luffenham being a Thor ICBM base along with two other local airfields, they were protected by a Bloodhound SAM base just next to the A1 at Woolfox Lodge, with the T82 being intended to track incoming targets for the Bloodhounds to engage. The Lindholme one could see traffic climbing out of Amsterdam above about FL100, and they frequently called us at this level!

[radarman]

Zooker,

I was at another T82 unit at the same time you visited Midland. Can't remember their being helpful, as any traffic you tried to hand them was refused due to it being in their overhead. Hence the rash of 'Midland Radar overhead starts here' stickers, which could be found in pubs and railway stations all over the UK. And abroad. Would be interesting to hear how far round the globe these were found.

Some interesting types at Midland though. Anyone remember Flt Lt J C trying to be helpful by using the T82 to do home-made SRA's with Vulcans into Waddington when Waddo's AR-1 was out of action? :eek:

[Lon More]

Hence the rash of 'Midland Radar overhead starts here'
IIRC there was even one at Maastricht

[FantomZorbin]

There was one in the Falkland Islands!

[Mr_Nightman]

Midland Radar closed early 1990,Feb/Mar I think,best unit I ever worked at!

[Sky blue and black]

I passed out once while on "heights" at Midland, I blamed the paint fumes, but I did smell a bit like a bottle of bacardi. "Volunteered" to be the section baby sitter for a month. Those babies must be nearly 40 now.

[10W]

On a similar theme, I remember seeing stickers proclaiming 'Border Radar - an unnecessary overhead' in the 1980's.

[chevvron]

At Lindholme we originally had the Patrington T80, replaced mid 1973 by T84 or T85 remoted in from Staxton Wold and this allowed you to 'see' traffic in the Lindholme T82 overhead, but even so, one of the RAF controllers would keep a log of levels in use in the overhead.

[xpz67]

Hi There.

I interviewed him 6 times and much of which he told me was not 100% accurate.

I beleive he was overlooked because of his views but you have to admit that he was influencial in the development of early ATC and we owe a lot to him.

I would love to have a chat with his son.

Thanks.

JP.

[xpz67]

Hi Lon.

I interviewed JJ 6 times and he was a bit of a slipery character. Much of which he told me was not true but he was ignored for promotion because of his views.

However, we owe him a lot for his forward thinking in the 1920's.

Thanks.

John Platt.

[xpz67]

Hello there. I interviewed him 6 times and would love to know where you got that information from?

Thanks.

John Platt

[xpz67]

Hi again.

Now that my body seems to be holding out and not putting me in hospital.

Did any of you work at the LATCC unit at Uxbridge?

The reason I ask is because it was called the "Listing building", not because it had any archetectual worth but it was supported on three railway sleepers to keep it level.

Any ideas.

Thanks.

John Platt.

PS. Just out of interest the history stands at about 140,000 words and tells a very sad story of neglect and under development. Does anything change?

JP.

[ZOOKER]

John, been following this, (via GATCO), for a while.
How long before 'Heavy Weather' hits Waterstones' bookshelves?

[xpz67]

Hi there.

It hasn't.

I have been suffering from a lot of tumours in my throat and various ilnesses that need attention. So the book has been put on a back burner.

I am now back in health firing on one cylider and am determined to complete the book.

I need all the help I can receive from all those old buggers who were in there in the early days.

It is a remackable story of incomtenence, under development and under funding and it needs to be told.

The years between 1939 and 1945 need to be exposed in that the higher commanders caused the lose of lives that never should have happened and I have the proof.

I also have the proof that some individuals were blamed for collisions that they never had a part in.

If you feel you have anything to add, please do so. We need to tell the whole story.

All I want to do is tell the truth.

John Platt.

[Lon More]

Reading in the old c/s thread the mention of Fan Markers reminded me of "the Outbound Calypso" sung IIRC at a LATCC Christmas party.
Bits I remember

Hey-ho, man alive,
Open up de throttles and climb to five ....

We fly along as in a fix
Watching de antics of an IR6 ...

Anybody still got this?

[Vercingetorix]

Those that got cadetships under the auspices of Margo Tricket and her deputy Barry Fryer: Without naming names almost all of the North side radar 'A' watch of 1969 ATCAs

cheers:ok:

[Rerun 57]

Hello All

I am trying to find out where the colour/number combination for naming airways originated? Having watched aircraft in Green 1 over Strumble from a tender age, I would like to write a short piece in my Blog about the origin of Green 1.

All offers of info gratefully received!

MTIA

Adrian
PDboyinSuffolk

[ZOOKER]

Sorry to resurrect an old discussion, but if anyone is interested, there is a U.K. ATC History site being developed by GATCO.
There is already some great stuff on there, but any photographs, charts, relevant documents and comments are welcome.
If you 'Google' [email protected] you should find it.

[FantomZorbin]

chevvron
Re. Lindholme. The 'data rates' of the T84/85 were slower than the T82 consequently the Level allocation for transit traffic in the overhead, 'procedural', was probably the best option.

[staunton]

Good evening,
I have read some interesting posts on my father Kevin Staunton (ex-RCAF 405 Sq.) who worked as ATC with CAA early 1960s to 1978 and then switched to IAL in The Gulf and SE Asia. After retirement, he worked in a training role with Eurocentre, Luxembourg and for the Irish Aviation Authority in Shannon and Russia (where we coincidentally shared a year working in our respective roles), and Prague 2000. Subsequently became an IT guru and helped many friends with PC problems. Sadly passed away last Tuesday 3rd January am in his 86th year in Dublin (funeral Tuesday 11th https://rip.ie/showdn.php?dn=308745/Kevin%20WSTAUNTON/Stillorgan/Dublin ).
He had an ex-RCAF ATC buddy with IAL Ivor 'Micky' McClean from N. Ireland we last met in Moscow 1999 - any info on his whereabouts appreciated...
Martin Staunton (Son)

[callum91]

Hi Martin
I tried sending you a pm but it wouldn't allow me. I last spoke to Micky when he was instructing at Global ATS in Gloucestershire summer 2015 so it might be worth giving them a call.

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

Hi Martin. Very sorry indeed to hear of the loss of your father, Kevin. I worked with him at Heathrow for some years in the 70s and he was a great character. I wonder if I dare tell a story.... About 40 years ago, Kevin was working London North Director when, during a quiet period (remember those?) an Irish-sounding pilot in a Viscount was approaching via Watford. After some Irish gabbling, the Viscount flew straight towards Heathrow and made a very tight circuit on to the north runway. Kevin got someone to take over and said something about having to go out and pay the pilot a fiver!! It seems Kevin had bet him he couldn't land and stay inside the middle marker!!

Oh Kevin, I bet they're all roaring at your stories up "there". God Bless +

[chevvron]

chevvron
Re. Lindholme. The 'data rates' of the T84/85 were slower than the T82 consequently the Level allocation for transit traffic in the overhead, 'procedural', was probably the best option.
It was actually my excellent mentor at Lindholme, (Les Coyle) who taught me the 'trick' of watching traffic in the Lindholme overhead on the remote radars; officially we still had to trot out the standard phrase 'losing radar contact as you pass through my overhead, I will advise when you are back on radar service'.
Les taught me other little tricks like allowing visual climbthroughs above FL245 when there was no other traffic to affect rather than vectoring the traffic 5nm apart.
Didn't happen to me but some airline pilots would get a bit stroppy when you said the above 'standard' phrase, demanding to know exactly where the radar was.

[Brian 48nav]

We have not had a post from JP for almost 5 years - are you still working on your book John?

Does anyone know if he is okay?

[Twin Squirrels]

As a new member I've only just found this thread; can reinforce the information regarding GATCO'S history website,it is well worth having a look at.

Can bore people with some stories from my time at RAF Northolt. ...mid nineties era. :)

[Skipness One Foxtrot]

Sorry to bring this back from the dead but it seemed the place. I was wandering around the old Vickers airfield at Wisley, home to the OCKHAM VOR, and latterly watching a DVD on ATC history where the fix was “Wisley”. Did they change the name when the airfield closed or is it not the same navaid?

[chevvron]

The VOR was only installed (I think) after the airfield closed and was originally named something else, but it kept getting confused with Lambourne VOR so the name was changed.
The nearest navaid before OCK was the Epsom NDB (EPS then EPM) but 'fixes' such as Wisley and Fairoaks were used for Heathrow SIDs

[The laconic atco]

As I remember it the VOR was originally Wisley but at that time Ibsley VOR was also in use. This caused some confusion so it was changed to OCK.

[chevvron]

Sorry I lied!
Thinking back, I reckon Wisley/Ockham came into use with the big LTMA re-organisation of 1977. At the same time another VOR at Stapleford Tawney was introduced named Ongar; however it was found the reception on some aircraft radios made made this sound too similar to Ockham so Ongar was changed to Lambourne.

[DaveReidUK]

According to the Piket/Bish book, the Wisley VOR was introduced on 9th December 1971 to replace the Epsom NDB (which was retained as a standby). It was renamed Ockham 20 weeks later, on 27th April 1972.

Four weeks prior to the above, on 30th March 1972, the NDB at Ongar was replaced by a VOR, which in turn was renamed Lambourne on 28th March 1974.

[brianj]

I recall being told the Heathrow “EPSOM” holD was name changed to “OCKAM” to appease the numerous wealthy and politically influential residents of Epsom, who objected to having a holding stack over their manor. They were overjoyed the EPSOM stack was withdrawn, not realising that the introduced OCKAM stack in effect still put holding aircraft over them!

[airac]

Didn't Les also say that if you could get a fag between them they were separated?

[Esector]

Jim Ward retired from Dubai nearly 10 years ago. Now happily retired in Glos

[El Bunto]

Does anyone know which alternative sites were surveyed before the selection of Swanwick for LATCC II / EERC / NERC?

The only snippet I've found is from Flight 6 May 1989 stating that for logisitical reasons the candidate sites had to be within two hours drive of West Drayton.

A survey of LATCC staff that year found that 62% "expressed a willingness" to move to the Southampton / Portsmouth area, but what else was on the survey...?

Unfortuntely the trail then goes cold until 1994 when the new building was revealed at the former site of the Bursledon Brickworks in Swanwick.

[Dan Dare]

I seem to remember that the first location was supposed to be towards Swindon or Gloucestershire. John? Barrett the NERC programme director told a story about the council getting worried about the potential for extra overflights if they accepted the new centre and becoming less helpful.

[Janet Spongthrush]

There was a fairly long list initially, including these

Leighton Buzzard/Milton Keynes
nr Fareham: Swanwick
nr Fareham: Whiteley
Swindon: South Marston (> Honda factory)
Swindon: hospital nr M4 junction 15
nr Petersfield: nr Liss

[terrain safe]

There was a rumour that the field next to CATC was being considered.