How could the pilot have prevented this bumpy landing?

[keesje]

test program operated by several russian / us companies a few yrs ago with old russian Tu144.

Interesting is that you the different dynamics and control action lead to a very bumpy occassion :ouch:.

http://www.aviapedia.com/videos/civilian/Tu-144/Tu-144_landing.wmv

It seems to me the pilot is trying to put the wheels on the runway when he should have just let it happen, starting a sequence hardly under his control..

Rugged russian airframe luckely :)

[Rainboe]

Not at all 'bumpy'! The apparent 'bounce' is not a bounce at all, it is all to do with active elevator use during the flare on a delta winged aeroplane. The 'impact' is probably quite gentle with little 'g' recorded- all the motion is from powered elevator use. I wouldn't like to say what 'he should have done', I wasn't there, but I don't see anything at all 'wrong' with that- it was a perfectly satisfactory arrival. Something for adverse comments by the uneducated to be attached to videos like the million on youtube all claiming to be 'hard', 'bounced', 'dangerous' etc, landings when in fact it was absolutely unusual. Concorde did some of those as well! I do them now and then in a 737. Not a problem, and unnoticed by the passengers!

[Jet II]

How could the pilot have prevented this bumpy landing?


Let the autopilot land it? :E

[Love_joy]

adverse comments by the uneducatedCareful there Rainboe, I can think of a few of your own gems.


There is something unusual about that 'flare', and the resulting action is anything but ordinary. The video isn't spectacularly clear, but it appears that there is significant deviation of the elevators both up and down prior to touchdown.

I am yet to fly an aircraft where the recommended landing technique is described as I have just watched.

As for the G force on impact - I would think you'd have felt that!

In answer to the original question - application of the correct technique would have mitigated the wild pitching in the video. It appears he/she flared too high and attempted to correct with a significant pitching down - maybe too heavy handed with the correction

[Reluctant737]

If you'd been sat above the undercarriage that would have felt bumpy. If you'd been sat at the very back the less physically tolerant of us may have felt a little queasy!

And no, that's not normal landing technique, but in saying that it's not unusual, although it places unnecessary stresses on the airframe. Remember that some components are replaced/maintained (=money) based on the number of landings, well there's three in that vid :p. But hey, unless anybody here was on that flightdeck or knows the precise conditions at the time, they should keep their mouths well and truly shut before slagging off any pilot's landing.

Ad

[airfoilmod]

It seems (from the video) pilot tried to "plant" a/c but almost immediately pulled (to "correct" his "mistake"), not allowing the a/c to react in time to first input; it looked like a picture perfect landing until he tried to improve on it. By the way, do you ever (on the 73) arrest sink with thrust at T/D?

(His AoA looks minimal for a Delta, so my f-106 bud tells me)

AF

[Reluctant737]

Yup, it's called pilot induced oscillation :ok: But we don't know that's what happened... it's a non event either way, but everyone has the right to their opinion and a discussion.

[Hot 'n' High]

Blimey Rainboe, think most people would have noticed those “arrivals”! As LJ and R737 suggest, looks a bit like PIO after trying to correct what could have been a slightly early flare - which actually looked OK if that had been held – runway length permitting! Given it was test-flying, it is probably hardly surprising as the guy flying it at the time probably had little time on it (even if he was a very experienced TP) so these things happen to the best. Reminds me of that A319(?) clip where the thing lands porpoising down the runway from Mains to Nose and back again several times before settling down. Still, seeing that makes me feel a bit better when I get it wrong! :uhoh:

[Rainboe]

That A320 was a hoax video BTW.

I have watched the video in question several times. Nothing more than a 'firm' touchdown- I have seen Concorde touch down harder than that. Several oscillations- as said, probably an inexperienced pilot on type feeling for the ground rather too enthusiastically. But nothing that needs a post mortem, nothing overstressed (without doubt). You want to see a 'positive' landing? The Interflug IL62 landing on grass in East Germany. This- nothing unusual at all. Let's not go making mountains out of molehills, this is a professional pilots forum, not airliners.net or youtube (with it's 10,000 'educated' critical remarks!).

[zerosum69]

just looks like a bit of PIO as he flares in ground effect. bit of a bump, but it was a highly modified plane at that stage (new more powerful engines) with a very unusual configuration (double delta, retractable canards etc) that had not flown for many years and the guy flying had either zero or very few landings in it before that flight, despite being very experienced.

imagine flying a huge unknown delta bird like that for the first time with folks taking pictures. You need balls :ok:

[airfoilmod]

Constructive criticism? A boon to the pursuit. Look closely at the elevators before "touch" down. I've done that, with unnecessary roll as well. But not in that type. Flight Test is not in my logbook, except due to my own mistakes, (thankfully minor). Hats off to all in Test programs everywhere.

AF

[Hot 'n' High]

There you go Rainboe - and I thought that A320 vid was for real! Just goes to show!

[ChristiaanJ]

Unfortunately there is no commentary with the clip.

My guess would be, that it's probably the first landing by one of the NASA pilots, who would have been an experienced test pilot, but may not have had that much delta time, and most likely none on a delta that big....

How could the pilot have prevented this bumpy landing?Basically by applying the same technique as on Concorde, which can be slightly counter-intuitive.

On Concorde you don't "flare" in the conventional sense, you maintain essentially the same pitch attitude to touch-down, and it's the ground effect of that big delta, that produces the "flare" in the sense of reducing the vertical speed to near zero at touch-down.

When entering ground effect there is a definite pitch-down moment which one has to counter with a definite control input to maintain pitch attitude. That's something one has to learn to 'dose' correctly (preferably in the sim, but I don't know if one was still available). In this case there was clearly some overcorrecting going on....
Sorry Rainboe, this was not SOP neither on the Tu-144 nor on Concorde ... :)

Let the autopilot land it?These were test flights, which included handling evaluation. You wouldn't have learned much from letting the A/P do the job.

His AoA looks minimal for a Delta, so my F-106 bud tells meAlways difficult to judge accurately from a video... also the Tu-144LL had canards, which would have helped to keep the AoA down.

There is a nice NASA report about the handling trials. Don't have a link at hand, but it's NASA/TM-2000-209850, "A Qualitative Piloted Evaluation of the Tupolev Tu-144 Supersonic Transport", authored by people from Langley, Dryden and Boeing.

CJ

[Rainboe]

HnH, Everything on the internet is either a hoax, fake, or has attached a litany of totally idiotic remarks (youtube)! In fact this posting is a hoax, fake, and full of idiocy. Don't believe anything you see anymore, especially Police speed camera pictures.

Christiaan, nobody said it was 'SOP'. It was nothing unusual. I've seen Concorde doing something like that. It happens, nothing broken.

[Hot 'n' High]

An interesting insight into a characteristic of landing a Delta Christiaan! In fact, it looks like the first “excursion” was a reduction in pitch which ties in with your info on the “pitch down” Moment generated in GE.

Would the Pitch Moment be due a “cushion” building up mainly towards the rear of the wing which is where the greatest span is? I would suspect that, in a Delta, Lift/CP itself remains fairly unaffected in GE since it will be almost pure Vortex lift at that point but that is only based on some wind tunnel work I did on the Harrier LERX a few years ago. Clearly, that was a hybrid situation I was looking at. All interesting stuff!

As you say Rainboe, who knows what is real these days.

[WindSheer]

It always amazes me to see Boeing and MD plastered over the side of that machine......as if they would do ANYTHING to support a concorde opposition!

:confused:

[fabbe92]

I have never seen this jet before. Could someone explain to me why it looks exactly like the Concorde and why stealing is the word that pops out in my head?

If I remember correctly I have seen a russian plane that looks exactly like the 757.

[airfoilmod]

For many years, the foremost Soviet aeronautical inventor was:

Regus Patoff

(Registered, US Patent Office)



AF

[Graybeard]

"Welcome to Phoenix, where the runway is ten feet higher than the pilot thought it was."

[ChristiaanJ]

Waiting for this to be moved to JetBlast...

An interesting insight into a characteristic of landing a Delta Christiaan! In fact, it looks like the first “excursion” was a reduction in pitch which ties in with your info on the “pitch down” moment generated in GE.You got the point... he was probaly briefed on this but didn't know exactly when to expect it.

Would the Pitch Moment be due a “cushion” building up mainly towards the rear of the wing which is where the greatest span is? I would suspect that, in a Delta, Lift/CP itself remains fairly unaffected in GE since it will be almost pure Vortex lift at that point but that is only based on some wind tunnel work I did on the Harrier LERX a few years ago. Clearly, that was a hybrid situation I was looking at. All interesting stuff!I would say that covers it pretty well. Let's leave the nitpicking to the others, HnH.

As you say Rainboe, who knows what is real these days.Not Rainboe himself, that's for sure....
Troll, imp, gremliin, Cheshire cat, hoax ... how would you describe yourself these days, Rainboe?

CJ

[ChristiaanJ]

I have never seen this jet before. Could someone explain to me why it looks exactly like the Concorde and why stealing is the word that pops out in my head?Old story, and done to death so often even I hesitate to answer...

In brief....

Both based on 'open-source' NASA studies of best shape in the late '50s.
So solutions would have been similar.

Exactly like Concorde?

Not that similar after all.
Concorde wing is a complex ogive shape with all kinds of subtle twists.
TU-144 is just a basic double-delta.

fabbe92, if you've never seen a Tu-144 before, and know nothing about its story, might I suggest there is such a thing as the internet and Google and Wikipedia, where you can inform yourself, before polluting a halfway professional forum?

[forget]

airfoilmod For many years, the foremost Soviet aeronautical inventor was: Regus Patoff (Registered, US Patent Office)

I've just spent ages on Google looking for a US built supersonic transport. Can't find one. :confused:

[StainesFS]

Try "US SST" in the Google search box. Approximately 7 million hits.

SFS

[airfoilmod]

I understand your post. Boeing gave up and it was a pity, though Concorde was beautiful and mission ready.

Look at C-5 and An 124, The Shuttle and Mir, Mig anything and North American, GD, Lockheed. etc.

The British have built, historically, some of the most beautiful machines to fly. The Spit just about stops my Heart.

But when the Russkies kidnapped the First B-29, the ball started rolling.

The first An-124 had a CRT for Wx that was 24" in diameter, and "valves"
(tubes) for avionics. They saved in Shape and power by copying. I won't fault the Concorde, don't make me get too defensive about Heinemann, Douglas, Jack Northrop, etc. and I will stipulate to deHavilland, Whittle, etc. (St.Exupery, you might be French?)

Cheers, AF

[divinehover]

It looks as though the aircraft could be used again. Great landing

[keesje]

Thnx for the feed back on the landing dynamics of delta's, thats what I was looking for. Looking at the video I too noticed the last second elevator movements. No doubt the Tu144 landing gear is fullly dimensioned to take this kind of loads.

IMO the Tu144 looks like the Concorde when look at it from say 3 - 4 miles... :) The size / shapes of the wings / canards, materials used, engine positions, cooling systems and flight control systems etc aren't even close. And oh yes, the Tu144 flew before the Concorde..

I think the copy cat non-sense is a feel good cold war heritage and an insult to the great skills and creativity displayed by the russian aerospace engineers of Tupolev, Ilyushin, Sukhoi, Beriev, Kamov, Mil, Myasishchev, Antonov, Tsagi, Yakovlev and many others.

Back to topic, I think the Russians knew a thing or two about ground effect. How about this for a copy cat..

http://www.aerospaceweb.org/question/aerodynamics/ground-effect/lun01.jpg (http://www.aerospaceweb.org/question/aerodynamics/ground-effect/lun01.jpg)
http://membres.lycos.fr/dracken/Ekranoplan/photo/chrono_russe.jpg

[forget]

I think the copy cat non-sense is a feel good cold war heritage and an insult to the great skills and creativity displayed by the russian aerospace engineers of Tupolev, Ilyushin, Sukhoi, Beriev, Kamov, Mil, Myasishchev, Antonov, Tsagi, Yakovlev and many others.

Spot on. :D:D

[despegue]

Airfoilmod: Nearly all of the Russian designs were and ARE superiour to their Western counterparts, especially in military aviation. Copycats?! No sir, brilliant aeronautical designers.
Yes, the Russians spied on the Western designs, but SO DID THE USA!!

Typical US remark about "russian copycats" by the way... and quite sad really

Ever heard of the First joint simulated airfight exercise near Key West in the early 90's between the USAF F15's (with their "TOP GUN" pilots and the former Eastern European MIG29's? All the Americans were shot down within 5 minutes...with no losses for the MIG's:E

[dkaarma]

How could the pilot have prevented this bumpy landing?He could have not taken off, but there's no fun in that.

It looks like a test flight to me..Perhaps they were testing something!

Move along folks, nothing to see here...