EASA clipping CPL(A)'s wings?

[+200 No Flags]

While browsing through EASA's FCL NPA, I ran across this:

SECTION 2
Specific requirements for the aeroplane category – CPL(A)
FCL.305.A CPL(A) Privileges
in commercial air transport
(a) The holder of a CPL(A) shall only act as pilotincommand in commercial air transport on a singlepilot aeroplane provided that:

(1) When carrying passengers under VFR outside a radius of 50 NM (90 Km) from an aerodrome
of departure, he/she has a minimum of 500 hours of flight time on aeroplanes or holds a
valid instrument rating; or

(2) When operating on a multiengine type under IFR, he/she has a minimum of 700 hours of
flight time on aeroplanes, including 400 hours as pilotincommand.
These hours shall include 100 hours under IFR and 40 hours in multiengine operations. The 400 hours as pilotincommand may be substituted by hours operating as copilot
within an established multipilot crew system prescribed in the Operations Manual, on the basis of two hours of flight time as copilot for one hour of flight time as pilotincommand.

(b) The holder of a CPL(A) shall only act under IFR as a singlepilot
when he/she complies with (a)(2)

and with the applicable requirements prescribed in Subpart OPS of PartMS 2 .

(c) The holder of a CPL(A) shall only act as pilotincommand in commercial air transport in multipilot operations provided that he/she has completed the command course prescribed in Subpart OPS of PartMS 3.

I do not remember ever reading this in the JAR-FCL. Was this ever the case under JAR?

Also, does anyone know what point (b) means? Reference is made to point (a)(2), but this deals with multi-engine aircraft whereas point (b) seems more of a general IFR nature. Where can this Subpart OPS be found by the way?

Thanks.

[IO540]

The OPS proposal has not been published yet, and rumour has it that it has been delayed by political objections.

Because many people are rightly unwilling to comment on the FCL proposal until the OPS proposal is out, the comment deadline for the FCL proposal has been extended a couple of times.

I don't know what those CPL regs mean, either. It might represent a concession to foreign licensed CPL(A)/IR pilots (quite a few FAA CPL/IRs are flying N-reg planes wholly privately, myself included) but quite a limited one, or it might apply only to JAA CPLs in which case it is pretty meaningless except to those heading for the AOC scene. Perhaps somebody who has read the whole proposal can explain?

[HN1708]

I thought this was always the case under JAR?

I know of a few low houred people that have been given dispensaions for Single Pilot IFR on AOCs to get around this.

[Justiciar]

It is very similar to Schedule 8 of the ANO 2008! The main difference is that under the ANO you can fly an aircraft under 2300 kg approved for single pilot operation for public transport without an IR(A). Otherwise you are limited to 25 nm.

[IO540]

OK but isn't a CPL without an IR and without working for an AOC holding operator very nearly practically worthless anyway?

['Chuffer' Dandridge]

isn't a CPL without an IR and without working for an AOC holding operator very nearly practically worthless anyway

Well I've got a 'worthless' UK CPL (my IR & ATPL exam credits lapsed years ago) and it does everything I need it to. Not all CPLs fly exotic glass cockpits or even want to fly a winged bus full of chavs, not all work for AOC companies (i.e an instructor) and all of my flying that requires a CPL is done VFR.:ok:

[+200 No Flags]

HN1708, could you point me towards a JAR document reflecting this?

[IO540]

Well I've got a 'worthless' UK CPL (my IR & ATPL exam credits lapsed years ago) and it does everything I need it to. Not all CPLs fly exotic glass cockpits or even want to fly a winged bus full of chavs, not all work for AOC companies (i.e an instructor) and all of my flying that requires a CPL is done VFR.

OK, now that we are playing a pointless guessing game, let me guess......

you are an INSTRUCTOR and need the CPL to get paid for instructing ?

['Chuffer' Dandridge]

you are an INSTRUCTOR and need the CPL to get paid for instructing

Ok, I'll bite then. It's only a "pointless guessing game" because you have chosen to start it.....:=

PS Not an instructor, never have been. Not sure I'd have the patience or inclination to do it...

[HN1708]

Sorry, can't point to any documents. Just know this was the case under JAR from working in the industry but i think LASORS says something about it.

Like people are saying, kind of pointless as most CPL's have an IR or have greater than 500h anyway.

[Whopity]

Try JAR-OPS 1.960 http://www.jaa.nl/publications/jars/jar-ops-1.pdf
JAR-OPS 1.960 Commanders holding a
Commercial Pilot Licence
(a) An operator shall ensure that:
(1) A Commercial Pilot Licence (CPL)
holder does not operate as a commander of an
aeroplane certificated in the Aeroplane Flight
Manual for single pilot operations unless:
(i) When conducting passenger
carrying operations under Visual Flight
Rules (VFR) outside a radius of 50 nm from
an aerodrome of departure, the pilot has a
minimum of 500 hours total flight time on
aeroplanes or holds a valid Instrument
Rating; or

[IO540]

So what exactly can one do with a CPL, without working for an AOC holder?

1) be a paid pilot for a firm or an individual who provides the plane

2) do charity flights beyond some radius

and obviously 1) is meaningless without an IR, currency, type ratings if applicable.

I'd be interested. I remember asking this very Q here a long time ago, before I had the CPL, and got no meaningful replies.

[G-SPOTs Lost]

Chuffer, I do all the other glass cockpit crap you mentioned and would swap you in a heartbeat after the fortnight I've had.

Also all please bear in mind that if Chuffer has a CAA CPL he has an evergreen IMC privileges that NEVER lapse and can get around the UK and Europe IFR quite happily avoiding CLass A

[IO540]

he has an evergreen IMC rating that NEVER lapses and can get around the UK and Europe quite happily avoiding CLass A??????????? [my bold]

['Chuffer' Dandridge]

if Chuffer has a CAA CPL he has an evergreen IMC privileges that NEVER lapse and can get around the UK and Europe IFR quite happily avoiding CLass A

Not true.... The IMC rating is only valid in UK airspace.

[chrisbl]

Chuffer,
Perhaps you ferry aircraft or do flight demos

[IO540]

He wrote

my IR & ATPL exam credits lapsed years agoso I don't think ferrying is very likely because nearly all of that is done under IFR.

But that's a good point, chrisbl, re ferrying. No AOC needed for that one.

[Contacttower]

Moving slightly off topic am I right in saying that one change in the NPA is the introduction of an ATPL skills test? Or has there always been one?

[G-SPOTs Lost]

Nobody said rating :=

[S-Works]

Parachute dropping.

[+200 No Flags]

Thanks Whopity, much appreciated!

[mcgoo]

Aerial photography/surveying?

[Whopity]

the introduction of an ATPL skills test?Introduced by JAR-FCL in 1999!
CAA CPL he has an evergreen IMC privileges that NEVER lapseNo, he has the privileges of the IMC rating whilst in the UK, but his licence does not contain the restrictions that necessitate an IMC rating in the first place. The licence conveys no right to fly IFR where nationally an IR is required! It will all end in 2012 when National licenses are phased out!

A CPL merely confers the right to be remunerated as a pilot, in very limited cases unless supported with additional experience/qualifications. It is the first rung of a long ladder.

[IO540]

I know of a flying school which had an AOC for traffic spotting - whether this was actually necessary I have no idea.

So, the current CPL-only list stands at

1) paid pilot for a firm or a client (who supplied the plane)
2) paid para dropping
3) paid ferrying

Not sure that flight demos need a CPL. If I worked for an airplane dealer why could I not take customers up for a flight, so long as I can refuse? If I was a freelance (not an employee of the dealer) however than I would need a CPL.

Survey people I have bumped into had AOCs.

[LH2]

So, the current CPL-only list stands at [....]

There are a few other things you can add to it as well, but I think you are talking about what a CPL holder can do in the absence of an AOC? That's comparable to holding a PCV licence: unless you're driving your own private bus, whoever you're driving for will have the road transport equivalent of an AOC (can't remember what it's called). There is nothing unique to aviation there.

[Whopity]

And of course Instructing.

The most meaningless privilege which originates in ICAO Annex 1 is that of being a Co-pilot as a PPL holder. To be a Co-pilot requires a multipilot type rating, which requires that the holder has ATPL knowledge, an IR and MCC!

[IO540]

The most meaningless privilege which originates in ICAO Annex 1 is that of being a Co-pilot as a PPL holder. To be a Co-pilot requires a multipilot type rating, which requires that the holder has ATPL knowledge, an IR and MCC!

Presumably, this is what John Travolta has? He owns the plane, and doesn't get paid for flying. I thought that under FAA rules you can fly a 7x7 on a PPL/IR with the appropriate Type Rating? Pretty meaningless, I agree, for most people.

[flybymike]

I would appreciate more information on the alleged demise of national licenses in 2012 as intimated by whopity above.

[chrisbl]

John Travolta has an ATP with mulitple type ratings. Whether he gets paid or not is irrelevant.

[mcgoo]

According to the FAA database, he has a private!

[S-Works]

According to the FAA database, he has a private!

Experience has shown the FAA database is not always correct or up to date......

[julian_storey]

This is true.

If you successfully complete a flight test in FAA land, the examiner will issue you a temporary licence which includes the new rating to which you have just become entitled.

Although you can then exercise those privileges immediately (which is the important thing!) the FAA can take up to 120 days to issue you your new plastic licence and update their website. (Generally it seems to take almost exactly 60 days)

Since the FAA don't charge anything for issuing a new licence and since the temporary one gives you your new privileges in the interim period, this has never struck me as being a huge issue :D

[IO540]

I think Travolta has been flying his jets for more than 120 days.

If the FAA site shows he has a PPL then he has a PPL, and same for certain other cases which have recently come up ;)

Completely legal too (for Travolta) - a PPL can fly a 747 RHS if he has a TR. An ATPL is needed only to be a Captain (LHS). Obviously not for paying passenger carriage.

[S-Works]

There are many errors/omissions in the FAA database. Not saying that the Travolta entry is wrong but it would surprise me that with the ease of gaining an FAA CPL especially in the light of the fact that he has a type rating on something so advanced that he has not done so.

[Big Pistons Forever]

Travolta may not have enough flying hours for the ATPL.....

[Contacttower]

I believe Travolta commands his own Gulfstream II, which is a multi-crew aircraft.

[IO540]

He owns it so he obviously "commands" it :)

An FAA jet type rating, which can be attached to a PPL, involves flight training and technical/systems knowledge equivalent to an ATPL. The only difference, I am told by people who have done this, is that you don't actually sit the ATPL written exam, and you don't come out with an ATPL because for that you would need 1500hrs of which c. 100 have to be at night, etc, etc.

Incidentally you cannot practically do the jet TR unless you have an IR.

I cannot believe Travolta's faa.gov record is duff, because someone as well known as him would not have allowed that to remain. It is also routine for CFIs etc to call up the faa.gov record when doing say a BFR or IPC. My FAA CPL examiner called up my FAA record, to see I existed, etc.

I don't know about JAA-land but I do know that the multi crew cockpit time which is nowadays required for the JAA ATPL makes it a bit nonsensical for a private pilot to do it. I've looked at doing the FAA ATPL but don't have a realistic chance of ever getting the night hours without silly night hour building.

[flybymike]

I believe John Travolta has been flying for over thirty years and has more than 5000 hours. I gather he flies his own 707 rather than a 747, and I think this would meet most ATPL pre entry criteria;).

[englishal]

It is balls to suggest the FAA dB is wrong....;)