A handy hole in the cloud?

[noblue]

I'm probably being naive, but how common is it for non instrument pilots to fly VFR on top making use of a ;)"hole in the clouds";) on departure and arrival. I've heard a few tall stories around the flying club which I personally found a bit disturbing, and you don't have to look far among some of the recent accident threads to suspect that it might be a common practice.

[flightlevel1985]

Can't say that I ever did it before I got my IR, sounds a little too risky :uhoh:

[18greens]

Ah the fools hole.

You can nip through holes to get on top, just make sure it stays there for when you want to come back.

The hole also has to be pretty big for the performance of most light singles.

VFR is clear of cloud in sight of the ground. Obviously having the confidence of an IR helps if you need to go IFR to make a break.

[phil94028]

Scary stuff for we USA based Brits.

Over here you really don't want to fool around like this. Besides even if you have and IR going unexprected IMC in a steep spiral isn't smart.
A bigger problem (which I guess you don't have over there) is that we like to be cautious about cloud clearances for traffic. Especially close to terminal class B airspace. Seeing a heavy jet pop out into the hole doing an RA is sure going to get you a phone call or worse!

[SNS3Guppy]

There's a reason they're called "sucker holes."

[IO540]

Read the general warning at the bottom of this page, I would suggest....

[englishal]

To all intents and purposes - these virtual black holes only seem to exist in Europe.. and only visible by those who do not have the appropriate paperwork to hand..
Oh I don't know. I was on the way back from Big Bear over the overcast and found a nice hole to get low enough to get below;)

Actually this problem I'd think was more of a USA problem. In the UK we (as in Non instrument rated / qualified) pilots are prohibited from flying VFR OTT, whereas in the USA it is allowed.....

Still, I wouldn't do it without an instrument qual.

[Pace]

Englishall

As in the thread on night flying there is a difference between nipping up for a quick look over the top or as in the night flying doing some circuits on a clear night and keeping close to the airfield and actually using the method to go somewhere.

I can remember as a new PPL flying on a generally overcast day and finding a 5 mile wide hole. I could see the the cloud was not more than 1000 feet thick and spiralled up to take a look at the panorama above. I felt like a naughty boy and quickly descened back down :)

The question has to be can you maintain VMC and navigate visually while on top. Over an overcast the answer is NO when the cloud is well broken and in you cruise along in smoother air while getting enough glimpes of ground features to be able to navigate then the answer is YES.

If that cloud starts to come together and to start giving a more solid coverage then you need to get down and continue below.

Pace

[IO540]

I think those who think they can navigate visually at night, beyond their own well trodden back yard, are kidding themselves.

During my NQ training myself and the instructor got totally lost, and he had been doing this for many years.

Real night flight needs totally radio navigation (GPS etc) - unless following something really obvious like a coastline. The lights are highly misleading; one town can look like another.

Most PPL logged night time is just after the legal deadline so they can log it as night, but it isn't dark yet, and it is on a very local flight.

[Tall_guy_in_a_152]

I suspect that when the IMCR is withdrawn the clouds over the UK will suddenly have more holes than a Swiss cheese.

[IO540]

I suspect that when the IMCR is withdrawn the clouds over the UK will suddenly have more holes than a Swiss cheese

I would almost say that the UK clouds will acquire as many holes as European clouds have always had, in the absence of a comparable qualification out there :)

But that's not really true because GA, especially going-places GA activity, is relatively (to the UK) dead in much of Europe, which solves the whole problem, doesn't it?

[wsmempson]

The cloud that forms over European countries that has a right of "VFR on top" allowed within their PPL, has more holes than a pair of fishnet tights.

Coupled with which, the only advantage of having an IMCR, outside of the UK, is that in the countries where "VFR on top" is allowed, you can do that too - which you can't with a normal CAA or UK JAR PPL.

See GASIL February 2004, page 9.
http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/33/SRG_GAD_GASIL2OF2004.PDF

How you get above or back down through the cloud requires that suspiciously convenient hole....:rolleyes:

[Rod1]

“I think those who think they can navigate visually at night, beyond their own well trodden back yard, are kidding themselves.”

As is quite common IO I would not agree. I gave up night flight for safety reasons some time ago but when I was young and bold I would “tour” at night. On a cold clear night from reasonable altitude you can see a very long way. As soon as you get used to this visual nav is very very easy. I would rather navigate on a clear night than in 3k vis during the day.

Rod1

[Fright Level]

The lights are highly misleading

Over the sea, I've occasionally mistaken a line of lights as a coastline when it turns out to be hundreds of fishing boats hugging an underwater shelf where their catch resides.

[Pace]

Rod

For a very experienced PPL non IMCR/IR rated it is doable if that pilot is very selective on the nights flown.

With any flight IR rated or otherwise the risk levels increase at night partially because any emergency or failure becomes much more serious, but also because it is far harder to navigate at night visually.

Distances become confusing, apart from city shapes there are very few ground features that you can identify and even the cities cannot be positively identified with reference to rivers, railway lines etc as they are at day.

Bring in clouds and weather that can come up on you without you seeing them or poor visibility and that adds up to a recipe for disaster.

Especially in the climb a horizon reference can be lost meaning that the basic PPL is forced to fly with reference to instruments.

IMO to encourage a basic PPL night rated to go anywhere at without a minimum of an IMCR is fraught with danger.

In a single there are other obvious dangers.

If the night rating is for just going up around the local area or flying around the local area on a good night when you can dart back ok but for anything more serious I would question the risk management of that flight.

I also consider it absurd that the CAA put the cart before the horse issuing non instrument trained PPLs with night ratings where they are not trained to deal with potential situations they can so easely and inadvertantly encounter.

Pace

[Fright Level]

I also consider it absurd that the CAA put the cart before the horse issuing non instrument trained PPLs with night ratings where they are not trained to deal with potential situations they can so easely and inadvertantly encounter.

I was about to counter that as I don't remember ever being worried when I first got my PPL night rating, however, I've just looked at my logbook and see I did the IMCR first and had 200 hours (with 30 hours real IMC logged) before I did the night rating, so agree, the instrument skills are probably essential at night!

[ScouseFlyer]

I'm confused!As the holder of the IMCR I was always under the impression that I couldn't fly VFR on top in France since the privileges of the rating are only exercisable in UK airspace-that being so and in spite of what is said in the GASIL publication what extends my basic JAR PPL rights to fly VFR above cloud and out of sight of the surface?

SF

[bilhar]

ScouseFlyer it the uk caa which restrict us.

with the imc that restrict is remove.

that why we can fly vfr above the clouds in france ie same the france ppl holders

[BackPacker]

ScouseFlyer,

The UK CAA restricts holders of a UK PPL or a UK-issued JAR-compliant PPL a bit further than the JAA regulations proscribe. According to the JAA regulations for a PPL, you can fly VFR-on-top (airspace permitting) but the UK CAA won't have that.

The IMC rating, in addition to giving you IMC privileges within UK airspace, also lift the restrictions that the UK CAA places upon your bare PPL.

[IO540]

As the holder of the IMCR I was always under the impression that I couldn't fly VFR on top in France since the privileges of the rating are only exercisable in UK airspace-that being so and in spite of what is said in the GASIL publication what extends my basic JAR PPL rights to fly VFR above cloud and out of sight of the surface?The IMCR gives you two things

- IFR privileges in Class D,E,F,G and these are limited to UK airspace

- the UK issued PPL restriction of having to be in sight of the surface for VFR is removed, and there is no territorial limit to this

The two above bits are in different parts of the ANO.

I also have the above from the CAA in writing, as have many others.

I don't know of any other European country which requires sight of surface for VFR. Elsewhere, I gather South Africa requires it. This means you can fly VMC above an overcast, as VFR, all over Europe.

Obviously this requires radio navigation, which is not adequately taught in the PPL, but if you have the IMCR then you should have no problems. In reality people just use a GPS, for all sorts of reasons.

GASIL is a rag which is full of patronising and occassionally incorrect "information", which is written to give the appearance of being a CAA mouthpiece, the LAW, etc, but is none of these.

[Pace]

Obviously this requires radio navigation, which is not adequately taught in the PPL, but if you have the IMCR then you should have no problems. In reality people just use a GPS, for all sorts of reasons.

10540

May I just add a caution to only do that if the cloud is well broken or if overcast only if you know your destination is clear and forecast to stay that way as well as an alternative and you are dead sure things will stay that way!

Just using a GPS is ok for the non instrument trained pilot but you still have to get down the other end and there is nothing worse than finding the whole lot has closed up on you the other end.

I was flying a twin at Pontoise a few weeks ago in beautiful weather checked the weather at Le Havre my next port of call and happily set off VFR. Half way along the route I was forced up over a 400 foot cloudbase and then had to change to an IFR clearance as the weather at Le Havre was now O/C at 500 feet and 2000 metres in drizzle. A front had moved quicker and further south than forecast so beware.

When I requested the IFR clearance the french asked me to confirm that my aircraft was IFR capable and that I had an IR. I did but god help the basic PPL in that situation and it does happen even with the best of forecasts.

Pace

[172driver]

The UK CAA restricts holders of a UK PPL or a UK-issued JAR-compliant PPL a bit further than the JAA regulations proscribe. According to the JAA regulations for a PPL, you can fly VFR-on-top (airspace permitting) but the UK CAA won't have that.

Wonder if this would stand up in a court of law......

[IO540]

May I just add a caution to only do that if the cloud is well broken or if overcast only if you know your destination is clear and forecast to stay that way as well as an alternative and you are dead sure things will stay that way!

Certainly. One needs to be pretty clever about the weather data.

But it works. Typically, the way this works is like this:

You depart from mucky UK weather, climb on top, fly at FL060/070/080/090 to say France or Spain, and halfway down France the muck disappears, and you land in good VFR conditions. To be legal, you merely need to be out of IMC by the time you cross the UK FIR boundary.

Coming back, you work the reverse. Depart the south in nice VFR, and land in the UK using the IMCR privileges.

When I used to fly VFR-only, I did this many times. I know one must not be flippant about weather but this technique really does work. Obviously there are times when the whole of Europe is barely flyable with anything less than a jet, but taking typical GA-long-distance-flyable conditions (basically an absence of fronts along the route) a UK departure in say OVC008, a climb to sunshine at FL050, then gradually climbing over France to somewhere below their general Class D base (FL110), it is not hard to pick a day when a long trip can be done this way. In fact it became a bit of a joke that one would depart some place like Cannes or even La Rochelle in sunshine, and hit a solid wall of IMC bang in the middle of the Channel :)

In the absence of fronts, conditions like OVC008 are usually companied by tops not much higher than 2000-4000ft, and since the airspace over the Channel has a base of FL055/065/075 in most places, one would be in the sunshine long before leaving UK airspace.

Under a warm front you could have OVC005 and tops at FL250, but I did say "no fronts" :)

It's a wider subject - the weather - because the PPL training tends to not teach much about it. The whole subject has changed since "the internet" and the data sources modern pilots use are far away from what is being pushed in the official training books and syllabus.

[Pace]

10540

I was cautioning against a basic PPL with no IMCR or solid instrument training flying above cloud to a what he thinks will be a clear destination.
I was not referring to a UK IMCR with experience working the system :)

In my situation a few weeks ago Had I been an IMCR I would have had the option of lying my way with French ATC and pretending I held an IR with the risk that had my approach worried them as to my qualifications then I would have faced a ramp check.

Or I could have stated that I did not hold an IR and been treated as an emergency. As it was I hold an ATP so no problems but my response was more to the basic PPL flying on top and the potential perils of doing so even if you believe the conditions are good at the other end.

Pace

[Evilbob]

The UK CAA restricts holders of a UK PPL or a UK-issued JAR-compliant PPL a bit further than the JAA regulations proscribe. According to the JAA regulations for a PPL, you can fly VFR-on-top (airspace permitting) but the UK CAA won't have that.

Wonder if this would stand up in a court of law......


It is stated that the commander of an aircraft shall obey the rules of the air of both the state over which the aircraft is flying and; the state in which the aircraft is registered, wherever it may be.

So are you legal flying VMC on top of overcast cloud outside of UK airspace in a G registered aircraft? I can't see how you can be.


With regard to the weather. There's nothing wrong with flying above cloud providing you are in sight of the surface and ensure there is ample room to get back down. Aside from the actual skills, the IR taught me what can potentially go wrong and the work load involved. I'm not current on instruments and I wouldn't entertain the idea of putting myself in a position where I had to use the IR in anger.

[IO540]

In my situation a few weeks ago Had I been an IMCR I would have had the option of lying my way with French ATC and pretending I held an IR with the risk that had my approach worried them as to my qualifications then I would have faced a ramp check.OK but I was talking about being legit.

If one is going to be illegal, then all bets are off and there are two options

1) being illegal in a way which is undetectable (VFR in IMC enroute)

2) being illegal in a way which is detectable (flying IFR with no IR, etc etc etc)

Lots of people do 1) and it's safe if you are very good (basically a competent instrument pilot) but close to nobody does 2). If you know your radio and know the procedures, you could fly airways all over the world with no license or rating whatsoever. So long as you keep out of certain countries (France perhaps, if flying an N-reg especially) you will be fine. Certainly, you could fly a G-reg around the UK all your life and would never get caught. Or you could have a fake PPL document. The CAA ones are just crude inkjet printouts.

So are you legal flying VMC on top of overcast cloud outside of UK airspace in a G registered aircraft? I can't see how you can be.The requirement to be in sight of surface for VFR (unless holding an IMCR or IR) is a UK issued license requirement, not related to the aircraft reg or the airspace.

So let's assume Mongolia allows you to fly a Mongolian reg plane on a UK PPL. Even in Mongolia, or anywhere else, you still have to be in sight of surface if VFR.

It's not trivial but it's not so complicated either. There are license restrictions, there are aircraft registry restrictions, and there are airspace restrictions.

License restrictions apply everywhere you are flying on the privileges of that license. The one above is one example. Having to be clear of cloud for VFR is another, pretty universal one (but before the 1960s it wasn't the case in the UK, believe it or not). An FAA PPL cannot be used for IFR (even in VMC) unless the holder has an IR attached to that license. Etc. This one can be quite funny if one has more than one license and quite often, on a given flight, you can choose (in your mind entirely) on which one you are flying.

Aircraft registry restrictions apply everywhere that plane flies. So e.g. an N-reg plane has to have an installed ELT - everywhere it goes. It's maintenance must be according to FAA regs - everywhere it goes.

Airspace restrictions apply to everything flying there. For example if France requires a Mode S above FL100 (no idea if it does; I've had one since 2005) then everybody has to have one - even the Mongolian plane. In UK airspace you must carry an ADF for IFR in all CAS. In most/all of Europe you need to carry a DME for all IFR. Most places you need to carry a VOR receiver for IFR.

[Evilbob]

The requirement to be in sight of surface for VFR (unless holding an IMCR or IR) is a UK issued license requirement, not related to the aircraft reg or the airspace.

Good point well made :D

[phil94028]

Again a note form the other side of the pond ...

In FAA land, "VFR on top" is a VFR clearance normally associated with a filed IFR. Very useful to get a clearance to climb through a layer to VFR on top or to a a cleared direct to a fix hundreds of miles away if VMC under IFR. Whats really nice about it is you stay in the system and can get a hard IFR altitude with a radio call in a few seconds if the layer gets higher or you need to get down and you can't imagine up a hole.

I think what you are talking about is called "VFR over the top" here and sure isn't for the faint hearted or those that don't feel lucky!

[172driver]

Wonder if this would stand up in a court of law......

I should perhaps have been a bit clearer on this. What I meant is the following hypothetical scenario: Pilot XYZ on a CAA issued JAR license flies his a/c across, say, France, VFR on (or over the) top. Lands in VMC. Gets ramp-checked, inspector says 'you can't have arrived here while maintaining VMC and sight of the surface, bacause the wx on your route was not VMC' and prosecutes. Pilot argues that he's been trained to the same standards as other JAR PPL holders who are legit to fly VFR on top, so he should not be prosecuted. Case goes to court - would the CAA stance stand up ??

[IO540]

bacause the wx on your route was not VMC'

Enroute, this cannot be proved BRD.

[BackPacker]

Case goes to court - would the CAA stance stand up ??

Apart from the fact that the French are unlikely to know the ANO inside out, and even less likely to prosecute someone in France for violating the ANO for something that would possibly be legal on a French license, yes, this would stand up in court. It's not a CAA directive, interpretation or something. It's clearly written in the ANO.

Here is the relevant text of the ANO (Schedule 8, part A, section 1, subsection 1):

(1) Subject to paragraph (2), the holder of a Private Pilot's Licence (Aeroplanes) shall be entitled to fly as pilot in command or co-pilot of an aeroplane (...)

(2) He shall not—

(...)

(c) unless his licence includes an instrument rating (aeroplane) or an instrument meteorological conditions rating (aeroplanes), fly as pilot in command of such an aeroplane—

(...)

(iii) out of sight of the surface;


Oh, and remember the JAA is an organization without any legislative power whatsoever. Whatever they produce is a suggestion to countries to put it into their own law. A strong and very important suggestion, but a suggestion nevertheless.

This will only change when EASA takes over and issues regulation as part of the EU, which takes on legislative power immediately and across the EU. So you cannot point to JAR legislation saying something different than the ANO, because JAR doesn't have legislative powers. And you can also not point to French and other EU countries' implementation of the JAA suggestions into their own law and then claim that the equality factor should play a role. This is not (yet) EU regulated, so the whole equality thing doesn't work across borders.

[CMS]

Amazing. I just finish writing about when VMC on top was legal in the UK and arrive here to find this thread.

In those days (the 1980s) we got four hours of instrument flying as part of the PPL course.

Just as well really.

Cliff.

Edit: Hmm. The forum appears to have eaten my link - Fear of Landing VMC On Top (http://www.fearoflanding.com/flying/i-learned-from-that/vmc-on-top/)