A handy hole in the cloud?
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A handy hole in the cloud?
I'm probably being naive, but how common is it for non instrument pilots to fly VFR on top making use of a 
"hole in the clouds" on departure and arrival. I've heard a few tall stories around the flying club which I personally found a bit disturbing, and you don't have to look far among some of the recent accident threads to suspect that it might be a common practice.
"hole in the clouds" on departure and arrival. I've heard a few tall stories around the flying club which I personally found a bit disturbing, and you don't have to look far among some of the recent accident threads to suspect that it might be a common practice.
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Ah the fools hole.
You can nip through holes to get on top, just make sure it stays there for when you want to come back.
The hole also has to be pretty big for the performance of most light singles.
VFR is clear of cloud in sight of the ground. Obviously having the confidence of an IR helps if you need to go IFR to make a break.
You can nip through holes to get on top, just make sure it stays there for when you want to come back.
The hole also has to be pretty big for the performance of most light singles.
VFR is clear of cloud in sight of the ground. Obviously having the confidence of an IR helps if you need to go IFR to make a break.
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Ouch ...
Scary stuff for we USA based Brits.
Over here you really don't want to fool around like this. Besides even if you have and IR going unexprected IMC in a steep spiral isn't smart.
A bigger problem (which I guess you don't have over there) is that we like to be cautious about cloud clearances for traffic. Especially close to terminal class B airspace. Seeing a heavy jet pop out into the hole doing an RA is sure going to get you a phone call or worse!
Over here you really don't want to fool around like this. Besides even if you have and IR going unexprected IMC in a steep spiral isn't smart.
A bigger problem (which I guess you don't have over there) is that we like to be cautious about cloud clearances for traffic. Especially close to terminal class B airspace. Seeing a heavy jet pop out into the hole doing an RA is sure going to get you a phone call or worse!
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To all intents and purposes - these virtual black holes only seem to exist in Europe.. and only visible by those who do not have the appropriate paperwork to hand..
Actually this problem I'd think was more of a USA problem. In the UK we (as in Non instrument rated / qualified) pilots are prohibited from flying VFR OTT, whereas in the USA it is allowed.....
Still, I wouldn't do it without an instrument qual.
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Englishall
As in the thread on night flying there is a difference between nipping up for a quick look over the top or as in the night flying doing some circuits on a clear night and keeping close to the airfield and actually using the method to go somewhere.
I can remember as a new PPL flying on a generally overcast day and finding a 5 mile wide hole. I could see the the cloud was not more than 1000 feet thick and spiralled up to take a look at the panorama above. I felt like a naughty boy and quickly descened back down
The question has to be can you maintain VMC and navigate visually while on top. Over an overcast the answer is NO when the cloud is well broken and in you cruise along in smoother air while getting enough glimpes of ground features to be able to navigate then the answer is YES.
If that cloud starts to come together and to start giving a more solid coverage then you need to get down and continue below.
Pace
As in the thread on night flying there is a difference between nipping up for a quick look over the top or as in the night flying doing some circuits on a clear night and keeping close to the airfield and actually using the method to go somewhere.
I can remember as a new PPL flying on a generally overcast day and finding a 5 mile wide hole. I could see the the cloud was not more than 1000 feet thick and spiralled up to take a look at the panorama above. I felt like a naughty boy and quickly descened back down
The question has to be can you maintain VMC and navigate visually while on top. Over an overcast the answer is NO when the cloud is well broken and in you cruise along in smoother air while getting enough glimpes of ground features to be able to navigate then the answer is YES.
If that cloud starts to come together and to start giving a more solid coverage then you need to get down and continue below.
Pace
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I think those who think they can navigate visually at night, beyond their own well trodden back yard, are kidding themselves.
During my NQ training myself and the instructor got totally lost, and he had been doing this for many years.
Real night flight needs totally radio navigation (GPS etc) - unless following something really obvious like a coastline. The lights are highly misleading; one town can look like another.
Most PPL logged night time is just after the legal deadline so they can log it as night, but it isn't dark yet, and it is on a very local flight.
During my NQ training myself and the instructor got totally lost, and he had been doing this for many years.
Real night flight needs totally radio navigation (GPS etc) - unless following something really obvious like a coastline. The lights are highly misleading; one town can look like another.
Most PPL logged night time is just after the legal deadline so they can log it as night, but it isn't dark yet, and it is on a very local flight.
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I suspect that when the IMCR is withdrawn the clouds over the UK will suddenly have more holes than a Swiss cheese
But that's not really true because GA, especially going-places GA activity, is relatively (to the UK) dead in much of Europe, which solves the whole problem, doesn't it?
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The cloud that forms over European countries that has a right of "VFR on top" allowed within their PPL, has more holes than a pair of fishnet tights.
Coupled with which, the only advantage of having an IMCR, outside of the UK, is that in the countries where "VFR on top" is allowed, you can do that too - which you can't with a normal CAA or UK JAR PPL.
See GASIL February 2004, page 9.
http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/33/SRG_GAD_GASIL2OF2004.PDF
How you get above or back down through the cloud requires that suspiciously convenient hole....
Coupled with which, the only advantage of having an IMCR, outside of the UK, is that in the countries where "VFR on top" is allowed, you can do that too - which you can't with a normal CAA or UK JAR PPL.
See GASIL February 2004, page 9.
http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/33/SRG_GAD_GASIL2OF2004.PDF
How you get above or back down through the cloud requires that suspiciously convenient hole....
Last edited by wsmempson; 20th Nov 2008 at 11:32.
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“I think those who think they can navigate visually at night, beyond their own well trodden back yard, are kidding themselves.”
As is quite common IO I would not agree. I gave up night flight for safety reasons some time ago but when I was young and bold I would “tour” at night. On a cold clear night from reasonable altitude you can see a very long way. As soon as you get used to this visual nav is very very easy. I would rather navigate on a clear night than in 3k vis during the day.
Rod1
As is quite common IO I would not agree. I gave up night flight for safety reasons some time ago but when I was young and bold I would “tour” at night. On a cold clear night from reasonable altitude you can see a very long way. As soon as you get used to this visual nav is very very easy. I would rather navigate on a clear night than in 3k vis during the day.
Rod1
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The lights are highly misleading
Over the sea, I've occasionally mistaken a line of lights as a coastline when it turns out to be hundreds of fishing boats hugging an underwater shelf where their catch resides.
Over the sea, I've occasionally mistaken a line of lights as a coastline when it turns out to be hundreds of fishing boats hugging an underwater shelf where their catch resides.
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Rod
For a very experienced PPL non IMCR/IR rated it is doable if that pilot is very selective on the nights flown.
With any flight IR rated or otherwise the risk levels increase at night partially because any emergency or failure becomes much more serious, but also because it is far harder to navigate at night visually.
Distances become confusing, apart from city shapes there are very few ground features that you can identify and even the cities cannot be positively identified with reference to rivers, railway lines etc as they are at day.
Bring in clouds and weather that can come up on you without you seeing them or poor visibility and that adds up to a recipe for disaster.
Especially in the climb a horizon reference can be lost meaning that the basic PPL is forced to fly with reference to instruments.
IMO to encourage a basic PPL night rated to go anywhere at without a minimum of an IMCR is fraught with danger.
In a single there are other obvious dangers.
If the night rating is for just going up around the local area or flying around the local area on a good night when you can dart back ok but for anything more serious I would question the risk management of that flight.
I also consider it absurd that the CAA put the cart before the horse issuing non instrument trained PPLs with night ratings where they are not trained to deal with potential situations they can so easely and inadvertantly encounter.
Pace
For a very experienced PPL non IMCR/IR rated it is doable if that pilot is very selective on the nights flown.
With any flight IR rated or otherwise the risk levels increase at night partially because any emergency or failure becomes much more serious, but also because it is far harder to navigate at night visually.
Distances become confusing, apart from city shapes there are very few ground features that you can identify and even the cities cannot be positively identified with reference to rivers, railway lines etc as they are at day.
Bring in clouds and weather that can come up on you without you seeing them or poor visibility and that adds up to a recipe for disaster.
Especially in the climb a horizon reference can be lost meaning that the basic PPL is forced to fly with reference to instruments.
IMO to encourage a basic PPL night rated to go anywhere at without a minimum of an IMCR is fraught with danger.
In a single there are other obvious dangers.
If the night rating is for just going up around the local area or flying around the local area on a good night when you can dart back ok but for anything more serious I would question the risk management of that flight.
I also consider it absurd that the CAA put the cart before the horse issuing non instrument trained PPLs with night ratings where they are not trained to deal with potential situations they can so easely and inadvertantly encounter.
Pace
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I also consider it absurd that the CAA put the cart before the horse issuing non instrument trained PPLs with night ratings where they are not trained to deal with potential situations they can so easely and inadvertantly encounter.
I was about to counter that as I don't remember ever being worried when I first got my PPL night rating, however, I've just looked at my logbook and see I did the IMCR first and had 200 hours (with 30 hours real IMC logged) before I did the night rating, so agree, the instrument skills are probably essential at night!
I was about to counter that as I don't remember ever being worried when I first got my PPL night rating, however, I've just looked at my logbook and see I did the IMCR first and had 200 hours (with 30 hours real IMC logged) before I did the night rating, so agree, the instrument skills are probably essential at night!
I'm confused!As the holder of the IMCR I was always under the impression that I couldn't fly VFR on top in France since the privileges of the rating are only exercisable in UK airspace-that being so and in spite of what is said in the GASIL publication what extends my basic JAR PPL rights to fly VFR above cloud and out of sight of the surface?
SF
SF
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ScouseFlyer,
The UK CAA restricts holders of a UK PPL or a UK-issued JAR-compliant PPL a bit further than the JAA regulations proscribe. According to the JAA regulations for a PPL, you can fly VFR-on-top (airspace permitting) but the UK CAA won't have that.
The IMC rating, in addition to giving you IMC privileges within UK airspace, also lift the restrictions that the UK CAA places upon your bare PPL.
The UK CAA restricts holders of a UK PPL or a UK-issued JAR-compliant PPL a bit further than the JAA regulations proscribe. According to the JAA regulations for a PPL, you can fly VFR-on-top (airspace permitting) but the UK CAA won't have that.
The IMC rating, in addition to giving you IMC privileges within UK airspace, also lift the restrictions that the UK CAA places upon your bare PPL.
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As the holder of the IMCR I was always under the impression that I couldn't fly VFR on top in France since the privileges of the rating are only exercisable in UK airspace-that being so and in spite of what is said in the GASIL publication what extends my basic JAR PPL rights to fly VFR above cloud and out of sight of the surface?
- IFR privileges in Class D,E,F,G and these are limited to UK airspace
- the UK issued PPL restriction of having to be in sight of the surface for VFR is removed, and there is no territorial limit to this
The two above bits are in different parts of the ANO.
I also have the above from the CAA in writing, as have many others.
I don't know of any other European country which requires sight of surface for VFR. Elsewhere, I gather South Africa requires it. This means you can fly VMC above an overcast, as VFR, all over Europe.
Obviously this requires radio navigation, which is not adequately taught in the PPL, but if you have the IMCR then you should have no problems. In reality people just use a GPS, for all sorts of reasons.
GASIL is a rag which is full of patronising and occassionally incorrect "information", which is written to give the appearance of being a CAA mouthpiece, the LAW, etc, but is none of these.