hopeless cases

[Danny boy]

how do you tell a student that there is very little chance of them ever making a pilot :ugh:

[Pace]

Danny Boy

I am not an instructor I recently had a situation where a non flying owner wanted to get a licence and I was very unsure of his aptitude to ever accomplish the licences he would require to fly his aircraft.

Firstly you have to be sure in your own mind that his/her bad flying is not a relationship problem with the instructor. Ie he cannot fly with you but may perform well with someone else. There maybe some other external reason for the bad performance like family or work problems.

In my own case above I asked an Instructor/ Examiner friend to do an evaluation flight with him. If he came to the same conclusion then a tactful steering away from that desire was probably the best way forward.

If he was still insistant then its his money going down the drain.

Pace

[SkyCamMK]

Truth is easily shared when backed up by evidence but what makes you think he is a hopeless case? Do you just want an easy life?

What is so unattainable about flying?

There are those who are slow learners and there are those who have money but no real enthusiasm or commitment.

Have you done a list of pro and con to help identify the salient features for his "Chopped" report?

You are able to train most people to do most things in this world but without some common shared goals you may be colouring the judgment - what is his expectation and is he aware of hie rate of progress etc etc

If you share more we can discuss more?

[joehunt]

Yes came across this a couple of times in a previous life.

To be fair to the student, they must be informed of the evaluation, that they are not up to it, of more than one instructor. Not a pleasant duty to tell a person that you think they should "try something else" instead of flying.

It is just plain wrong to take their money and carry on training until he or she gets the hint.

Actually I wished someone had told me to take up another line of work all those years ago, as I would peobably be a lot better off! Too late now though.

[Say again s l o w l y]

There are many people who are utterly unsuited to being in a cockpit. Hopeless cases are a reality of flight training.

However, you have to be careful that it isn't just a relationship problem between the FI and the student.

In this case, I'd be talking to the CFI, let them fly with the student to ascertain what's going on. Then as as CFI I'd have handed the student to someone else who may be more suitable.

If this still doesn't work, then you should talk to the student about it. FInd out what and why they are struggling. The worst students for this are the inconsistent ones. One day they are fine and you think "great, we've cracked it!" and the next flight they seem unable to even work out how to open the door.

In one case. I took a student aside and had a full and frank discussion about it. I didn't want to waste his time and money, but he was determined to prove me wrong and wanted to continue no matter what.

For me that resolved the matter. He never got a licence, but we did manage to get him off solo and that was good enough for him. He knew the options and our opinions and no-one was pulling the wool over his eyes. It was his choice to continue.

If someone wants to go flying and knows that they may never get a licence, but continues anyway, then it is our duty to support them as much as we can. You never know, we do get it wrong and they may surprise you.

In fact my best moments as an FI have come from seeing students who initially you thought were hopeless becoming safe and competent pilots and gaining a licence.

Far better than just flying with bright young things who zip through in minimum hours with no real effort or input from the FI.

[QNH 1013]

I would suggest that you can't be certain that they won't eventually make the grade and then be a good pilot, (whatever that is). Some people just take a long time to learn new skills, but often they are then as good, if not better than faster learners.

I think all you can say is that it is clear that it is going to take them a lot longer, and therefore a lot more money to get a licence. Are they willing to invest a lot more time and money to learn to fly?

The people who worry me are those, who just don't seem responsible enough, although they are often quick learners.

[Pace]

For me that resolved the matter. He never got a licence, but we did manage to get him off solo and that was good enough for him. He knew the options and our opinions and no-one was pulling the wool over his eyes. It was his choice to continue.

When I learnt to fly 20 years ago there was a female pilot who fitted that category. She was sent solo and then freaked out and froze in the circuit on her first solo.

I can remember her screaming over the radio that she couldnt land the aircraft. It took another aircraft and a lot of talking to get her to regain her composure and to land back on the runway.

It must be a hard descision to send someone solo who you have serious doubts about?

Pace

[Say again s l o w l y]

It was no worse than sending anyone else off really. There's always that element of doubt as to how they might handle it, but if you've covered everything, they've had a good session or two before hand then away they go.

Mind you, that one did have a big audience and plenty of "You've done what..............................!!!!"

[Evilbob]

I have come across this situation before on just a couple of occasions. In those cases I did not believe it impossible that the person could learn to fly. I did think that they would be throwing a lot of time effort and money at it. At the end of the day it is there decision if they want to continue and who am I to tell them what they can or can't do? Just as long as they are making an informed choice, and I have made sure that they are aware of how I feel they are progressing.

In one of these cases we subsequently found the student was regularly working upwards of 80 hours per week and sleeping a whole lot less than he should have. It was amazing he could fly as well as he was! In his case it was subsequently proven that with adequate rest he flew very nicely indeed.

In other cases I have recieved students at the school who had been told by previous organisations that they would never learn to fly, and have delighted in getting them up to solo and beyond. Sometimes instructor and student just do not gel.

Before you decide it is a hopeless case, consider that there may be a good reason for the lack of progress.

One final thought (I don't know whether it is the same every where), but it would seem that those not blessed with handling skills generally make up for it in airmanship, while those who control the aircraft well see it as the be all and end all (generally the teenage would be fighter pilots).

[lady in red]

There are a few who are unsuitable to be pilots. One that I had to chop had a severe problem with narcolepsy - in other words he used to fall asleep during the lesson! Another guy suffered from inability to recall what he had been taught four days previously and used to do things in a haphazard way based on the fact that he knew he should be doing something at a certain point - eg. retract flaps at 300 feet on climb out - he would reduce the throttle etc. (Environmental shift?) Another could never overcome his nausea and threw up every time we descended to land. Clearly all unsuitable to continue training.

Incidentally, my first instructor wrote in my student records that I would never learn to fly! Here I am 20 years and 7500 hours later, having trained over 150 instructors...but there we are - some 24 year old boys have remarkably little ability to judge the potential of older women and display their immaturity and lack of teaching ability by yelling, shouting, abusing and showing off to their students. It is all about empathy and patience.

[VFE]

I say stick with any student who struggles, you are paid to teach and pass your evaluations after each lesson. If you explain to the student that their progress is below that of an average student and highlight how this will cost them more than perhaps initially planned then they can then make their own mind up. It is never for us to say "YOU should not be flying". If you tell them to quit they'll only go to the school down the road and start over again. Might as well hold on to the custom. Most instructors who attempt to put students off are only doing so for an easy life.

I have had my quota of nutty types, same as most other instructors and I won't pretend I enjoyed it. Some unwittingly gambled with my sense of safety and drove me to the sanctity of a large pint at close of business. My lesson learned is to just keep it simple and certainly keep it dual until the moment comes... if indeed it ever does. Oh, and don't let things get to the stage whereby you rely on your superior flying skills to get you out of situations that could've been avoided by your superior judgement! If it means evercise 6 for ten lessons then so be it - you decided to become an instructor so lump it and work harder to solve the problem.

VFE.

[what next]

Hello!

If you explain to the student that their progress is below that of an average student ...

Never ever tell a student that he is "bad", "below standard" or anything negative at all. This will slow him/her down even more, because it makes them nervous and afraid of making even more mistakes. If your FTO requires you to fill in grade sheets, hide them from the "bad" students. Or "forget" to bring them, when they ask about it. Or "forget" to fill them in (thats what I do, followed by a phone call to the instructor who is going to fly next with this student in which I tell him what to look for).

Instead, highlight their strengths as much as you can ("I like the way you prepare your flights" or "You are really our only student who is always here on time" if no other positive remark about the flying can be made), followed by one but (and really only one but per flight!) adressing a weakness. Give them homework to do to help them get better, like doing navigation excercises on their PC simulator or memorising their checkpoints along the route.

For me, the real challenge of instructing is making good pilots out of not-perfectly-talented people. Flying with good students is just boring in comparison ;)

Over the years I have only had one hopeless case. A real gentleman, recently retired automotive executive, who used to travel on business jets at work and who wanted to finally fulfill a dream of his youth by learning to fly. All the instructors of our school took their chance with him, but it just didn't work out. After nearly 100 flying hours (money didn't matter to him), he realised that it would not lead anywhere, and begged the school owner to let him do one single solo pattern. Just one. But no instructor (including the owner and the CFI) had the courage to sign for it. A real pity, as he was (is?) such a nice man. To me, failure at instructing feels much worse than making my own mistakes.

Greetings, Max

[BroomstickPilot]

Hi Guys,

Quite recently, I came across a guy who, I am reliably informed, had apparently done about 300 hrs Cessna spamcan flying at a UK club (£40K+?) just to get an NPPL.

He took up flying to overcome a fear of flying; but despite his NPPL flying still terrifies him. He still never flies without an instructor in the right hand seat.

Worst of all, he is a small businessman and had to remortgage his home to fund this training. He now has no pension provision and a mortgage debt so large that he will never be able to afford to retire: he will have to work until he drops.

He won't give up flying because that would make his past expenditure seem a complete waste of money, so he goes on flying even though he has this huge debt.

If I had been a club proprietor, and had done this to somebody, I wouldn't be able to sleep at night.

I feel any decent flying club or FTO has a duty to chop people who prove to have very poor flying ability - in their own interests.

Broomstick.

[VFE]

Understand all that Max, but I hardly consider that a softly delivered chat including the line "below that of an average learner" or "progress much slower" is really doing anything other than putting that student in the light. If they cannot accept this news then they have a serious problem but the only 3 people who I've had the misfortune to deliver such news to have thanked me for it and accepted it with great dignity and understanding, often happy to continue, with no misapprehensions. Praise all you lilke but 99% of people know when they are underachieving and all you serve to do by continuing with the jolly instructor act is to make yourself look like a poor deluded madman... or worse - a penny pinching crook! There's daftness and stupidity and that strays the line - be honest and they'll thank you.

VFE.

[Evilbob]

What Next:

No, you have to be honest and open. You cannot believe for an instant that you are the only source of information to your students. They read books, magazines and various internet forums like this one. They know the milestones, and to make matters worse the magazines only publish the successes of the 16 year who went solo after just 10 hours, or the 17 year old issued with a licence on his birthday after just the minimum required training. Those examples would be exceptional cases and the student needs reassurance that they are not lagging behind. Similarly, you have to be honest when things aren't going so well. Will the student make progress if there is no trust or respect for the instructor?

Hiding the negatives denys them the ability to improve on there mistakes and saying things like: "you really are the only student who turns up on time but xxxx was not good" may be with good intentions, but sounds patronising.

Yes they have to be given positives and made to realise what has been achieved during the lesson, but overall you must be honest.

My method:

First of all ask the student what they thought (you will get an indication of there confidence and how they feel they are progressing, as well as getting them to analyse what went wrong - because most of them do recognise it).

Second, discuss the negatives.

Third, explain to them how we will address those negatives.

Finally, tell them what they did well.

In some cases it is not always lack of ability but, lack of motivation. Students who are making errors in flight because they are not doing the work at home, whether that be ground studies or re reading the exercise they have just completed. I have a student who has good aptitude but is no longer progressing because no matter how hard you push, he cannot be bothered to do the ground exams. The one that he has passed is no longer valid and his knowledge is poor. He has been told to that extent. He had to be: he's throwing money away and his attitude to flying is all wrong.

With regard to the good students being boring. Not really. While I accept it is great to help a student of below average ability achieve a dream. It is just a satisfying to ensure the above average student gets a license in minimum hours.:)

[Pace]

I feel any decent flying club or FTO has a duty to chop people who prove to have very poor flying ability - in their own interests.

Broomstick

Here you touch on some people who should not fly. The guy you talk about obviously has a massive fear but failing to beat that fear means he would rather loose all he has than feel beaten and there are people like that.

I knew of a business jet pilot who had issues. His father was a very successful airline pilot. he had a drink problem and drove himself in his flying.
He was a capable pilot but I often wondered about his motives for being there and whether he would not be a happier person doing something else?

Therefore maybe its more the case of indentifying pilots or would be pilots who dont really enjoy what they are doing but are driven by other reasons to be there.

Pace

[rans6andrew]

I am a bit concerned that in message 5, SAS says that someone that was thought to be incapable of reaching the required standard was sent solo.

My understanding of the competence required to go solo suggests having enough skill in all of the critical stages of the aircraft handling/procedures/co-ordination to be expected to bring the aircraft (and the student!) back in one piece. All that you do after that is adding the judgement to do it unsupervised.

Wouldn't getting to this point suggest that someone is capable of going on to get a licence?

As an aside, a few years ago I (a low hours microlight pilot at the time) was having dinner with a recently retired airline pilot (gazillions of hours) some where in France when he came out with the self evident fact that you actually become a pilot when you complete your first successful solo circuit.

Andrew.

[VFE]

Pace, now you are entering ridiculous territory - questioning a persons motives for wishing to fly?! That, as far as I am concerned, is none of my business. Do Threshers question customers motives when they purchase a bottle of bubbly? Of course not.

I am a flying instructor, not a psychiatrist.

Some instructors really do step outside their remit sometimes - I know of one who, not content with being a mere instructor, decided they were now a GP and told a student to lose weight before their flying lesson despite the fact the student held a class two medical and the C172 was more than capable of carrying their weight within limits!

Our job is to teach someone how to fly. Remember that.

I suggest we leave the persons motives, medical issues and perceived psychological issues to the AME's and just get on with our job. It's getting worse than the Jeremy Kyle show on here!

VFE.

[Say again s l o w l y]

rans don't start pulling apart situation that you weren't a part of and have no knowledge apart from what is typed.

I've been around flying training for a while and was part of an extremely professional team of FI's who all worked their backsides off to get this chap off solo.

He wasn't utterly useless all the time, he was an inconsistent pilot. One day good, the next day appalling. Luckily one of his good days coincided with good weather and we were able to get him off for a single solo cct.

There wasn't a chance in hell that he was ever going to be able to get a licence. The reasons are many and varied and as any idiot who's been an FI for more than 5 minutes knows, some people just aren't able to get there.

The vast majority can be brought up to a decent standard, but not everyone can and it isn't always a reflection on the FI if a student fails.

I've personally dealt with students who are illiterate, lazy, clever, thick as mince, driven, young, old and even some who are just normal people! There aren't many I've not managed to get through their test. In fact it's only this one chap so it's not exactly something that happens a lot.

[Yorky Towers]

"any idiot who's been an FI for more than 5 minutes knows, some people just aren't able to get there."

"There aren't many I've not managed to get through their test."

Sounds like a damn good Instructor to me, keep the good work up say-again!:hmm:

[hotcloud]

For my sins I have been flying 25 years and instructing for 12 of them. I have had to deal with a wide range of student ability. Indeed several students had admitted to me from the onset that they were not particuliarly academic and would struggle with their flying. I took this on board and customised my instructional technique to fit their needs, as I appreciate that one size does not fit all. From my experience (4652 instructional hours) by far the majority of the students are capable of gaining a PPL, however I am sure that many students would give up if they did not receive the right support (How many of us can remember a teacher at school who had been negative and crushed our confidence only to be proved wrong in later years). As instructors we have a huge responsibility and if we get it wrong we can damage the confidence of the student. I like to think that I have a relaxed teaching style and a friendly professional approach. In the back of my mind I always have these words, informative, safe and fun.

There are occasions when the student hits a brick wall and progress stalls, however in my very first ground school I tell students that progress will not be at a linear rate and that it may even go backwards occasionally, therefore when students hit that brick wall I remind them on what I said at the first ground school. I am not afraid to point out mistakes and will package my delivery in a way that does not shatter the confidence of the student, as Frank Carson would say "it's the way you tell em". I also will introduce my student to others that are at the same stage to enable them to compare notes, they soon realise that everyone struggles from time to time and that actually makes them feel better.

We had a student at our flying school who struggled with the flying and the instructor was completely honest with regard to his progress. The student still wanted to continue despite the very slow progress. This particular student passed his skills test 2 years ago after 280 hours over several years. He now flies on a weekly basis and I can honestly say hand on heart, having been on a check flight with him, that he is a very capable and safe pilot. In some eyes he would have been considered a hopeless case.

[cockney steve]

A wealthy local "wide-boy" decided he must become a Helo pilot.

The local training-school refused his business, on the grounds that he wouldn't "cut the mustard".....so he went elsewhere, eventually qualified, hired a helo and took his wife to see their business-spread from the air.
both died, IIRC, Carb icing,didn't drop collective quick enough...witnesses saw MR tuliped and it dropped like a brick.

IMHO the first training org. were to be commended..they attempted to save him from himself.

[OneIn60rule]

IF you believe someone will need a lot of training to get through. Do tell them.

I would not say:"you are below average therefore it will take time"

Err... who wants to be told that?

Honesty is one thing but shattering is another.

1/60

[Pace]

When I learnt to fly 20 years ago there was a female pilot who fitted that category. She was sent solo and then freaked out and froze in the circuit on her first solo.

I can remember her screaming over the radio that she couldnt land the aircraft. It took another aircraft and a lot of talking to get her to regain her composure and to land back on the runway.

VFE Firstly I am not an instructor as such but am a biz jet and twin prop pilot with an ATP. The above from my previous post actually happened. Who let a neurotic girl like that go solo? Before letting someone go solo you surely have to weigh up the whole pilot. At the time we all thought we were going to end up with a dead girl such was her panic but someone missed that time bomb in her. I agree with another poster that if a student is safe and competant to fly solo they should achieve a PPL.

Broomstick wrote

Quite recently, I came across a guy who, I am reliably informed, had apparently done about 300 hrs Cessna spamcan flying at a UK club (£40K+?) just to get an NPPL.

He took up flying to overcome a fear of flying; but despite his NPPL flying still terrifies him. He still never flies without an instructor in the right hand seat.

Worst of all, he is a small businessman and had to remortgage his home to fund this training. He now has no pension provision and a mortgage debt so large that he will never be able to afford to retire: he will have to work until he drops.

I would suggest that as an instructor you have a huge responsability in recommending a student as safe to go solo and that you do have to look at the whole person and in a few cases question their motivation.

Pace

[Romeo India Xray]

In a few cases where I found it impossible to make headway, I turned the situation around. You can guage a lot by turning the student into their own instructor - no dont just send them solo and hope for the best. Goes something like this.

Instead of the usual cursory review, recap and briefing (tailored to the sudent), turn the tables on them and ask them what they want to do for that particular flight. This makes it easy to see if they are under expecting or over expecting and then makes it easy to spoon bit sized chunks suitable for that particular student at that particular stage.

Then there is the student who has a simple problem that you just cant see. When I started flying (about 20 years ago), I couldn't land for toffee. I was awful. I would baloon, bounce get the engineers out of the hangar with 0.0 scorecards. I flew with several different instructors who couldn't iron out my landing problems. At altitude I was fine, speed, altitude, heading, trim, but within a few feet of the surface it was bucking bronco all the way. I was getting depressed with the situation because I knew I wanted to fly and knew I wasnt at all that bad except for the landing part. On the verge of giving up I was sent off with an short old instructor. One horribly bounced circuit later he grabbed the throttle as I went to push it for the go after the touch(es). He said "take me back to the clubhouse boy". Out of the aircraft he dashed and came back with a blobby looking thing. "Here put that under yer a*se lad - thats yer only problem, yer can't see out"

I was short and had raised the seat to the top of it's travel but still could see bugger all in the flare (and having had no previous experience just thought this was normal). In one flight this old chap had fixed all my problems. Next landing was a greaser and the one after and the one after that and after about 5 greasers I was solo :)

I still maintain there are very few people who should not fly at all, just for some of them it would be better to buddy up with a competent owner/PPL (I cant believe I am suggesting this, but we all know it goes on so what the hell), watch, learn, listen and yes ... have a play in the cruise. Spend a few years doing that and then come back for further lessons.

RIX

[joehunt]

VFE

"I am a flying instructor, not a psychiatrist."

You are probably correct, however psychology plays a very big part in effective instruction. It also pays a very big part in effective CRM in a multi crew environment.

[Spunky Monkey]

It isn't the military. You can't chop somebody.

There are difficult cases and there are methods to teach them.

Prehaps the chap with the NPPL needs some goodground school, to help him overcome his fear. When he understands what is going on he may progress further.

After all flying the aircraft should be the last part of the lesson. All too often people are too keen to get flying. This is partly to do with the short lesson allocation and also to do with instructor ability.

I know an instuctor, (who rebuilt my flying skills) who managed to get a chap with severe learning difficulties to do his first solo.
I am happy to pass his details over to you.

I fly with him as often as possible to help polish my skills and improve my patter.
You are never to old to learn.

[Whirlybird]

Incidentally, my first instructor wrote in my student records that I would never learn to fly! Here I am 20 years and 7500 hours later, having trained over 150 instructors

Something similar happened to me, lady in red. In fact, I heard some time later that several instructors (all young and male, as it happens) were placing bets as to whether I'd ever go solo, never mind get a licence. But I got my PPL(A), then a PPL(H), CPL(H) and FI(H) rating. And I seem to have managed to teach quite a number of people to fly R22s, which aren't the easiest flying machines to handle.

I was a slow learner. I also had a poor memory. I knew it, and my instructors knew it. Both they and I got frustrated and impatient about it - and I'd have got on far better without the frustration and impatience adding to the original difficulties. A good instructor needs to believe that the student can do it if he or she really wants to, and be willing to help that student get there, however long it takes them.

That said, of course it's a good idea to point out, but non-critically and non-judgementally, that it might take them a long time and cost them more money than they'd originally thought. I hope my early experiences have made me better at doing that. When I was at school I realised that the best teachers were those who had had difficulties themselves, not those who found everything easy, and I think that definitely applies to flying too.

However, the students who worry me are those with mental problems, for want of a better way of putting it - those who are seriously overconfident, who lack good judgement, or are just plain nutty (good technical term, that). Maybe those can get a licence, but I'm not sure that they should. :(

[VFE]

Pace, joehunt,

Indeed psychology does play a big part in aviation safety however, nowhere have I read in human factors training where it states a person becomes a qualified psychiatrist on becoming a pilot or instructor. Many like to think they understand peoples minds but the reality is that it's usually the manifestation of an over inflated ego (itself a flight safety issue) which leads people to play the Sigmund Freud part in the cockpit...

Subconsciously, I obviously take onboard a student's perceived personality when training them, but I am also very much aware that I am subconsciously assessing someones mental state whilst they perform in an environment which is extremely unusual for them. Student pilot behaviour is seldom akin to their normal day to day persona, I have witnessed people react in strange ways, I have seen people exude confidence only to crumble when I authorise their solo cross country paperwork. Swings and roundabouts is a good phrase to use. If you cannot understand this fundamental fact then it's as well you do not instruct.

All this said, I would be lying if I told you there wasn't at least one student so far whom I believed I'd never send solo...

VFE.

[B2N2]

It isn't the military. You can't chop somebody

Couldn't agree more.
I would (and will) only chop a student if they display hazardous attitudes.
They may or may not have an accident in the near future, I am not taking the chance.

As far as skill is concerned;
I call it the "3 out of a 100" as in 3% actually has the natural born talent and aptitude to be really really good at this game.
Every body else, including me, are in the big grey area in the middle.
As in, with enough practice they will eventually catch on.
I wasn't a brilliant student pilot by any means, I don't expect anybody else to be either.
The trick is to keep the students (and instructors) frustration level in check.
The instructor needs to adapt to the student, not the other way round.
Having an attitude of : ".....lesson 9 calls for solo...you're not ready..therefore you suck...maybe you should stop..." is arrogant and unnecessary.
I've flown with people that have soloed at 80..90 or even more then a 100 hrs. Eventually they all walked away with a certificate.
Some of them even successfully went on to IR and MEP.

Keep in mind we have a dual role;
We are "gate keepers" as in having the moral obligation to prevent unsafe people from taking to the skies.
We also provide a SERVICE, apart from hazardous attitudes it is not up to us to get a student to stop. It's up to them.
Somebody that shows very very slow progress, but has the right attitude, can be successfully finished. They just need to be kept up to date and reminded that they will need a budget adjustment.

[Say again s l o w l y]

I don't think anyone is advocating that slower students get "chopped".

Mind having taught some real arrogant ar*eholes, there are times when I wished I could have booted them. Though there are ways of bringing down even the most ardent egotistical twonk!

[Yorky Towers]

Say again...

You might not be advocating that slower students get "chopped". However, I do sympathise with you on account you have encountered quite a few "ar*eholes" and "egotistical twonks" whilst doing your utmost to help these people realise their dreams of being able to Pilot an Aircraft. I take my hat off to you for your perseverence. :ok:

Regards
Yorky
:E

[Vee1Kut]

A good instructor knows how to overcome students hurdles to becoming good at what they are there to learn, and this applies to lot's of things. I used to get the students that other instructors gave up on. As someone that has been a student of many things...(My latest: Guitar)...I can say that finding a good instructor is about as likely as Pamela Anderson picking me up in a bar for the night of my life. That all said, some students are basket cases, but they like to fly, and while they have issues, and it will 150 hours to get thier PPL a good instructor will help them get there. Primarily the biggest block to students learning is the inability of instructors to simplify and communicate the information to the student. Honestly, most instructors, really just don't know what they are doing. For those that don't believe an instructor should be a layman pschologist, go back to the FI test...LAWS of LEARNING, and all that section entails. Needless to say, if your giving up on the student, just pass him/her along to someone else, don't tell the student that they can't be a pilot...chances are you don't have enough time in the game to honestly make that assessment. Some of my best students came in brow beaten, timid, fearfull, cautious, screwed up.....

[timzsta]

"It isn't the military - you can't chop somebody".

Er yes you can.

Part of our remit as Flying Instructors and Examiners is to decide who is fit to hold a license. And that is both for the point of view can they actualy fly safely enough and that they are of the "right stuff".

When I started I was handed a very determined and likeable young student. I was to be his fourth Instructor. Each of his previous Instructors had told him he was never going to get his license. I made it my goal to get him through. I put my heart and soul into his training, took him right back to basics. Progress was sporadic, slow, sometimes we went backwards. We hit a real low, I told him to stop but he was determined to continue. He said he wanted to do it as much for me as for himself.

Progress began to be made again and eventually at the end of a detail in the circuit where he performed EFATO's, flapless and glide approaches and normal approaches to my satisfaction, all items on the club's pre first solo checklist were complete to the requisite standard (I had by that time become un-restricted). Had it not been for the odd isolated heavy rain shower and forecast of CB activity for the near future I would have sent him off first solo. Next time he will go I told myself. And he felt confident in himself he could do it.

The next time we flew three days later it was like he had never ever flown a circuit detail in his life. In fact at times it was like he had never been in an aircraft. I couldn't believe the difference and it scared the living daylights out of my that I so nearly sent him on his own.

I asked him in the debrief to explain the difference in his performance over the two details. He sat forlorn and sad faced and could offer no explanation. I told him I could never ever authorise him to fly solo. The penny finally dropped for him and we have not heard from him since.

When it comes to the "right stuff" I am talking about the students one occasionally gets who never turn up on time or prepared, won't check the weather or NOTAM's, won't read the Flying Order Book, think they know better then the Instructors and possibly have disobeyed the instructions given by their FI's with regard to solo flight.

I have had just such a chap as well and CFI, Deputy CFI and myself had to have a long chat amongst ourselves and with said student. Eventually the penny dropped and he fell into line. Had he not we were not prepared to let him get his license at our Flying Club. All has ended satisfactorily and he has just sent his paperwork to the CAA for license issue.

[Thud105]

In my experience, although most people can eventually be trained to fly - there are a few who never will. The important thing is to level with them - some really don't want to ever go solo, they just enjoy flying.

[granlistillo]

There once was a pilot trainee named Tuck
Who couldnt fly worth a ????
It came to his last flight
and by George he got it right
And he went on to murder the Luftwaffe bastids

Flying is in large part mental. Unfortunately in some cases the student will be self defeated before they ever get into the air, and there is not much an instructor can do about it.

[blueplume]

granlistillo

There once was a pilot trainee named Tuck
Who couldnt fly worth a ????
It came to his last flight
and by George he got it right
And he went on to murder the Luftwaffe bastids

Congratulations on the non sequitur. One of the the strangest comments ever made on pprune.

You've got issues, dude!

[granlistillo]

Non sequitur?

Nah

One of the greatest pilots of all times came within one flight of being kicked out of the RAF, when he first started. His troubled start is well documented. I've read several accounts that he only learned to relax when he was sure he would not pass his elimination ride, and that seemed to fix his training woes. Had he not had a patient instructor who appreciated his attitude, he might not have made it.

But hey, any reasonable talk with you is probably wasted on you if you must respond with an Ad Hominen response.

Edit: googled robert tuck flight training and on page one of results.
Hopeless case?

Robert Stanford [email protected] (http://everything2.com/e2node/Robert%2520Stanford%2520Tuck)

The R.A.F.'s great war ace (http://everything2.com/title/war%2520ace) got off to a bad start. The ability to fly seemed to evade him. With far more hours of training than most of his classmates, Bob Tuck was still an unsafe and unskilled pilot (http://everything2.com/title/pilot). During the actual flight of his final test, Tuck was hung-over and sure of failing. This triggered a "don't care" attitude that apparently allowed him to relax enough to fly properly for the first time.
Robert Stanford Tuck: World War II RAF Ace Pilot HistoryNet (http://www.historynet.com/robert-stanford-tuck-world-war-ii-raf-ace-pilot.htm)
October 24, 1935, No. 3 Flying School, Royal Air Force Station, Grantham, England. An Avro Tutor biplane trainer sits on the end of the grass runway. In the front cockpit is a student pilot officer with 13 hours of dual instruction behind him–obviously a slow learner. If he doesn’t do well on this flight, he will be sent home. His name is Robert Tuck.

[blueplume]

I think you didn't quite understand my point.

Don't make assumptions about being able to talk reasonably with me. You know nothing about me.

I am suggesting that your little rhyme, which isn't one, has very little to do with learning to fly and the methods used to teach people. Hence non sequitur. We all know that most of the fighter pilots in the latter stages of the war were given very little training because they were not expected to survive more than a couple of outings.

None of which has any relevance to this thread because a. we are not living under the circumstances of the second world war and b. we are talking about civilian training in the 21st century for which payment is made.

Good for Friar Tuck, I'm sure he enjoyed "murdering Luftwaffe bastids", as you put it so eloquently.

[granlistillo]

No, and I don't really care to know about you, based upon your initial manners. But since you have shown some improvement, and I tend to like even the most disagreeable people, we can continue civil discourse.

Tuck was receiving training in a tiger moth, and at this stage of the game was learning basic stick and rudder skills to enable him to get around the "circuit". He was a ball of nerves and it led to among other things overcontrolling. Sounds a lot like the flying club PPL hopeless cases read about here. He did not as you implied train late in the war, but had 5 years of practice prior to the B of B.

My point was that someone can have enormous ability and aptitude, but still show signs of being hopeless. It may be a mental block or self discouragement that is at fault. If the instructor suspects this, then maybe he might try to change his tack.

Hey the most inept student I ever met took over 55 hours to solo, terrified my buddy who was his PPL instructor but was within 2 years flying turboprops for a little US 121 regional. Not that flying regional turboprops qualifies anyone for a chuck yeager award.

Now someone who is lazy and/or shows poor judgement, should be shown the door.

[hotcloud]

"It isn't the military - you can't chop somebody".

If a student is not progressing well, I hope that there are no instructors that will consider giving the student the chop (i.e. tell he/she to give up), as many factors have to be considered such as:-

Student/instructor relationship
Student domestic situation (may be going through a bad patch)
Instructor domestic situation (also may be going through a bad patch)
Learing style of the student
Teaching style of the instructor

Prior to becoming a full time instructor I was on the Senior Management Team heading a Human Resources Department. As a Senior Manager I had to attend many courses and undertook the Myers Briggs personality test. (I am an ISTP). It really gave me an insight as to how we all perceive things differently. As with any personality type there are strengths and weaknesses. There are some very judgemental personality types who will simply not bend and what they say goes, so if an instructor with this personality type encounters a student who they percieve to be failing they will tell them so in no uncertain terms. Is that right? Some would say so, but others with my personality profile would deal with the matter in a different way. Don't get me wrong, if I had a student who was not progressing despite my best efforts, I would see if another instructor could assist, after all the other instructor may be able to take a different approach.

In a nutshell, if someone is going to get the chop, it should not be a decision made by one instructor, all other options should be explored..

[granlistillo]

I tend to agree, "giving the chop" should be a last resort. I helped a flight school owner set up a career pilot program, and learned a lot from him. If a student was not progressing, he and the chief pilot would set them down and work with them. He was honest and told them where they stood, and that no shortcuts would be taken. Many of them got through their training at great cost to them, but they made it.

The same guy also had an "idiot clause" in his terms and conditions agreement. Basically, you show a haphazard or dangerous attitude toward flying and you can go somewhere else.

In one case they had a student come to a lesson with alcohol on his breath. He obviously didnt fly, and they had a serious talk with him and put him under close scrutiny. Personally, I would have summarily shown him the door off the property.

[blueplume]

granlistillo

Good luck, you're going to need it.

[granlistillo]

Thanks for the encouragement blueflamer-another sign of your maturity.

Are you going to make any comments germane to this thread?

In the context of this thread what will I need luck for? I fly jets for a living, never failed a checkride in my life so I dont think I am a hopeless case. Very few are truly hopeless. I certainly want to do all I can to encourage those who strive to reach their goals.

[Vee1Kut]

We should start a thread about hopeless instructors...

[timzsta]

Until you have flown with someone who is a hopeless case you are not qualified to talk about it. When your sat there hopelessly low and slow on the approach, stall warner blaring and you calmy say for the umpteenth time "stick forward, apply power" and the student closes the throttle and pulls back on the controls, then you will understand. If they are not capable, they are not capable, you shouldn't keep taking their money or letting them hold onto an impossible dream, it is just wrong.

And should you finally decide your hopeless case is ready to fly solo just remember whose license the student is flying solo on, and who will be infront of the Judge at the subsequent coroners inquest should anything happen. I have seen it happen and it's not pretty or pleasant for all involved. If anyone wants to PM me feel free...

[VFE]

When I first started instructing I'd allow the student the chance to get "hopelessly low and slow on the approach" before intervening with my "superior skill....."

......you can see where this is going can't you.....

Now, after a few years instructing, I will allow the student less chance to get "hopelessly low and slow on the approach" by using my "superior judgement...." and what is more - have developed the ability to impart that "superior judgement" onto the student as is my role.

Too many "hopelessly low and slow on approach" moments make you develop better instructional methods in my experience. :}

VFE.

[timzsta]

I do not consider myself superior in any way to any of my students. I tell them right at the start I am not a better pilot then them, I merely have a little more experience.

[VFE]

And I bet that nice little speel makes you feel a little less crusty.... and they'll still screw it up until you intervene nonetheless. :}

VFE.

[IO540]

Unfortunately (or fortunately) I have come across instructors who just love hopeless students.

I know of three people who took over 100hrs. Two of them never got the PPL and AFAIK (lost touch with them) continued to fly with an instructor in the RHS, and the third got her PPL after spending about £20,000. The instructor was telling me with glee how much she had spent. He had a special revenue maximisation technique which was to knock the student's confidence (easier to do with women, in general, perhaps?) just about the time he/she was making progress. In fact she got her PPL only after moving.

This instructor is not instructing anymore, TMK. But these practices were pretty widespread in one or two places I used to hang out.

Let's be brutally frank and cynical. The way the PPL training business is set up, the business incentive to deliver a licensed (I should say "competent" but that would sound too ambitious) pilot is exactly zero. This isn't the RAF. There is therefore bound to be a (small) number of instructors who reach the obvious conclusion and have no problem with the ethics.

[Say again s l o w l y]

I've never come across FI's doing that, but if they are, then they should be taken out and birched. Our job is to do what's best for our students, if anyone is trashing confidence and knocking someone down to maximise revenue, then I hope they never darken my door. They'd get a smack in the face if that was how they worked.

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

Students who will never make it and should stop but refuse to accept the fact exist. I've had at least 4.

Intructors/Schools who bleed people of money for the sake of it definitely exist and I worked for one once.

So many Wannabes - so much naivety..


WWW

[Say again s l o w l y]

One of the truest statements I've ever read on here.

Many times I've flown with people who have obviously had sunshine blown up their backsides at other places, especially in regard to their potential as commercial pilots. Sometimes this industry should hang it's head in shame.

[VFE]

I have overheard CPL instructors saying how "so and so" would never make it as an airline pilot. That particular "so and so" is now flying for a major!

It is often uncertain at the training stage as to whether anyone will cut the mustard higher up... The deal is we train someone to the standard they need to be in order to pass their next test whatever test that may be. If it means we have to be honest when it's obviously gonna cost them more money then that too is part of the job in my opinion. I think the vast majority of instructors are ethically sound in that respect.

Every PPL student I instruct is viewed on their own merits based essentially on their goal and age. The way I gear a flying lesson would not be the same for a 17 year old airline pilot wannabe as a 65 year old fly-for-fun type who's undecided on whether he actually wants a licence yet. One thing is for certain though - I would never suggest to a young airline pilot wannabe that I don't think he's cut out for it as I have no real basis for an opinion. This standpoint has sod all to do with ethics unless one is involved with airline pilot recruitment or testing. Ethics need a foundation. In short, my view counts for nothing on that level and I'd be seriously jumped up to even suggest it to a young PPL student, even the poorest in quality, passing through my flying school.

VFE.

[hugh flung_dung]

Timzsta, the root of your student's problems may partially be in your technique.
You said "... and you calmly say for the umpteenth time "stick forward, apply power" " - but this does not teach judgement. I respectfully suggest that a better approach (ahem) would be to say "check your speed and correct it" followed later by "is your approach angle correct? ... how can you fix it?". By doing this, and with appropriate demonstrations and breaking-down of the task, the student learns judgement and practices corrections rather than just being an extension of your own approach processing (can't think of a better term).

HFD

[George Semel]

I been flying for a lot of years, almost 34 years now. And I started out as a flight instructor, and I still teach on my off days. I seen a lot of different students over the years, and I gotten quite a few from others that thought were more or less didn't have "The Right Stuff". Its BS, anybody can learn to fly its not hard, most student problems, are instructor problems. Poor instruction is the problem. I do it a little different than most. When a student is having a problem and not progressing at a reasonable pace, I change things a little, Go fly someplace for lunch, and as he or she masters a skill, I will have that student teach me that skill as if I was a student and he/she is a flight instructor. The Funny thing is that it works. Teaching somebody to do something teaches you to do it better. I had a student once that could taxi an airplane pretty good but had problems with the radio, was just afraid to talk on the dam thing, so one day I told him that its going to be a ground lesson and you are going to teach me how to talk on the radio. It worked well enough for him to get passed that hurtle. He was just a little nerved up about the whole thing and by having him just talk, got him over it. Flies an RJ now. yea he needed extra dual thru the whole program, everybody is different and you have to be able to change your approach for each student.

[flygirl 001]

What I do with the hopeless students is quote them lines from Pulp Fiction...do you read the bible Brad...the path of the righteous....etc etc... you know how it goes then shoot them....just joking..:ok:

[Vortex Thing]

QFE I would never suggest to a young airline pilot wannabe that I don't think he's cut out for it as I have no real basis for an opinion.

What even as a full time professional instructor you haven't got a basis for opinion to see if someone will acheive something that you hold i.e a CPL(A).

So who would be the best person to refer said student to now for an opinion. :ugh: Errm well George Semel and WWW and perhaps even I would be a good start but hey what would we know as we only dabble in instruction part time :rolleyes:

Sarcasm aside I agree with WWW have seen 3 of my schools continue with students who stated at the outset that they wanted nothing but commercial who were undoubtedly going to have to pay well over the odds. The IR usually does the trick.

On the PPL side though I remember only 3 students I have met who would never achieve a safe PPL standard even on their best days. I told them as much and they continued flying in the knowledge that they would only ever fly as students, 2 still fly and still enjoy it (no sight of a licence though), fair play to them.

I at first thought the smaller the school the more likely this would be but in reality as most are capable of PPL what I found was that the real villains of these stories are the commercial schools who continue with students sometimes lying just for the sake of extra revenue. I'd like to say this is the minority but if I did I'd be lying. Business it appears to some will always be business.

[Whirlybird]

have seen 3 of my schools continue with students who stated at the outset that they wanted nothing but commercial who were undoubtedly going to have to pay well over the odds.

In which case, that is what you tell them. But... "Fred, you seem to be struggling a bit, and it's going to take you well over minimum hours and cost you a lot of money to do this", is very, very different from..."Fred, you're never ever going to make it as a pilot, no matter how hard you try".

[Say again s l o w l y]

There is a big, big difference between someone who struggles a bit and someone who is a "hopeless case".

Hopeless cases are just that. No chance. You could throw millions at their training and it wouldn't matter. They are rare beasts though, but when you meet one. You know instantly!
Someone who needs extra support? Well, that's what we're paid for. As long as they are aware that it will take them a bit longer, but that you will be with them every step of the way, then fine.

[VFE]

Problem with this debate is that it's all subjective.

VFE.

[timzsta]

The "stick forward - apply power" bit comes after the prompts made to the student about "do you think your high or low on the approach?" "so how are you going to correct this" and "check your airspeed".

Unfortunately with some students despite them showing understanding in the briefing room and having seen demonstrations of the correct and incorrect approach angle, and demonstrating an understanding in the classroom of how to correct it if it is wrong, when they have to do it for real in the aircraft, they cannot grasp it.

If you think they is an issue with my Instructional Technique your welcome to come down and fly with me. If you still think there is an issue you can take it up with my CFI and if you still think there is an issue you can take it up with the CAA.

Over to you....

[hugh flung_dung]

Hey Timzsta, you're (not "your"!) showing evidence of being a little thin-skinned and prickly, old chap. With time you'll find that maturity brings the ability to recognise and accept or reject constructive criticism in the same spirit that it was intended.

You may possibly be more experienced than me, and you may be the best FI to ever walk on this Earth (or to fly above it), but I humbly suggest that, if a stude does not react correctly when prompted they need another demo rather than being told what to do with the controls. I'd also suggest that the correct speed should be a higher priority than the correct approach angle.

Bottom line: everyone learns at different rates and it's the duty of the teacher to use their experience to apply a technique that works for the particular student that you happen to be dealing with at the time. When teaching people to fly it's imperative to teach judgement, and this can not be taught by telling the stude how and when to move the controls.

HFD

[timzsta]

Of the students I have taught thus far, only this one poor unfortunate young lad has failed to come up to the standard required for me to get out of the aeroplane and authorise him to fly solo. I was his fourth and final Instructor, all three other Instructors were immensly more experienced then I and had come to the conclusion he would never achieve it (one has over 12000 hours as an FI).

I like many feel increasing this site is not what it once was.

Sadly too many people come on here and jump on a few words typed by individuals in a post and automatically assume that because of what is typed they are not up to the grade and need to refine their technique.

I teach my students the three things they must pay overriding attention to once on final approach are speed, (speed again and speed), glide path, centreline. In that order.

My offer still stands. Perhaps you could teach me a thing or too, I still consider my experience minimal.

[Whirlybird]

I like many feel increasing this site is not what it once was.

Nah, it's always been like this. We were misunderstanding each other and saying these sorts of things several years ago. It's the nature of the internet and the written word.

Flying instruction isn't rocket science, and IMHO is far more about personal relationships than flying anyway. We all do it differently, and our students learn in different ways. That's what this thread is about...I think.

[SASless]

Absolutely spot on Mr. Semel....the key to being a good instructor is being able to figure out what motivates your student. Some need just a kind word...some a sidewards look and a comment along the line of ..."well if that is as good as you can do....then ok!"....some need the fire extinguisher banged on their noggin. Find what gets them going...and teaching gets easy.

The same ol' drill does not work for every student....it takes some variation to get to them all.

If you teach on your "off" days....what do you do on your "good" days?;)

[airborne_artist]

I think this might just qualify as a hopeless case:

AAIB report (http://www.aaib.dft.gov.uk/publications/bulletins/december_2008/pegasus_quantum_15_912__g_ccwn.cfm)

"Summary:

The flight was planned as a trial lesson and was the student’s first flight in a microlight. The Pegasus Quantum is a flex-wing microlight with a tandem seating arrangement in which the student occupied the front seat. Durng the flight the instructor progressively allowed the student to take control and he flew a circuit follwed by an approach to land. The instructor described the student as flying ‘very well’.

At around 100 ft the microlight began to drift to the right of the centreline and the instructor said ‘I have control’. The student pulled the control bar fully back and froze. The instructor immediately applied full power and attempted to push the bar forward. Despite repeated vocal commands the student did not release the control bar and the microlight struck the ground at around 80 mph. It bounced back into the air before touching down again and coming to rest around 40 m from the intial impact point. There were no injuries."

Amazing :eek:

[CirrusF]

That's one of the drawbacks of tandem seating - you can't wack a frozen student/passenger in the face if they freeze or grab the controls. The human reflex to protect the face if wacked is so strong that even the most determined/petrified hijacker/student will let go of the controls if hit in the face. Worth bearing in mind as an emergency SOP.

[VFE]

Well one must confess to having experienced the compulsion to smack a student in the face for arriving late and ill-equipped for a lesson but seldom whilst airbourne! But their legs? Now that's another issue all together - how many clam up on the rudder pedals making it practically impossible for instructor input if neccesary?! Other than placing my hand on their knee in a quasi-molesting feel-up kinda action (to distract attention!) there's not much else left in the bag for that one is there?! :}

VFE.

[CirrusF]

there's not much else left in the bag for that one is there?! http://static.pprune.org/images/smilies/badteeth.gif

How about a wack in the b*ll*cks?

[Say again s l o w l y]

What if they haven't got any?

Pen in the leg or elbow to the noggin work well. Don't ask me how I learnt that.................

[sanjeevbhadresa]

Yup, totally agree! It's amazing how a sharp jab with a pen tends to refocus the mind!