hopeless cases
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Danny Boy
I am not an instructor I recently had a situation where a non flying owner wanted to get a licence and I was very unsure of his aptitude to ever accomplish the licences he would require to fly his aircraft.
Firstly you have to be sure in your own mind that his/her bad flying is not a relationship problem with the instructor. Ie he cannot fly with you but may perform well with someone else. There maybe some other external reason for the bad performance like family or work problems.
In my own case above I asked an Instructor/ Examiner friend to do an evaluation flight with him. If he came to the same conclusion then a tactful steering away from that desire was probably the best way forward.
If he was still insistant then its his money going down the drain.
Pace
I am not an instructor I recently had a situation where a non flying owner wanted to get a licence and I was very unsure of his aptitude to ever accomplish the licences he would require to fly his aircraft.
Firstly you have to be sure in your own mind that his/her bad flying is not a relationship problem with the instructor. Ie he cannot fly with you but may perform well with someone else. There maybe some other external reason for the bad performance like family or work problems.
In my own case above I asked an Instructor/ Examiner friend to do an evaluation flight with him. If he came to the same conclusion then a tactful steering away from that desire was probably the best way forward.
If he was still insistant then its his money going down the drain.
Pace
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Hopeless?
Truth is easily shared when backed up by evidence but what makes you think he is a hopeless case? Do you just want an easy life?
What is so unattainable about flying?
There are those who are slow learners and there are those who have money but no real enthusiasm or commitment.
Have you done a list of pro and con to help identify the salient features for his "Chopped" report?
You are able to train most people to do most things in this world but without some common shared goals you may be colouring the judgment - what is his expectation and is he aware of hie rate of progress etc etc
If you share more we can discuss more?
What is so unattainable about flying?
There are those who are slow learners and there are those who have money but no real enthusiasm or commitment.
Have you done a list of pro and con to help identify the salient features for his "Chopped" report?
You are able to train most people to do most things in this world but without some common shared goals you may be colouring the judgment - what is his expectation and is he aware of hie rate of progress etc etc
If you share more we can discuss more?
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Yes came across this a couple of times in a previous life.
To be fair to the student, they must be informed of the evaluation, that they are not up to it, of more than one instructor. Not a pleasant duty to tell a person that you think they should "try something else" instead of flying.
It is just plain wrong to take their money and carry on training until he or she gets the hint.
Actually I wished someone had told me to take up another line of work all those years ago, as I would peobably be a lot better off! Too late now though.
To be fair to the student, they must be informed of the evaluation, that they are not up to it, of more than one instructor. Not a pleasant duty to tell a person that you think they should "try something else" instead of flying.
It is just plain wrong to take their money and carry on training until he or she gets the hint.
Actually I wished someone had told me to take up another line of work all those years ago, as I would peobably be a lot better off! Too late now though.
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There are many people who are utterly unsuited to being in a cockpit. Hopeless cases are a reality of flight training.
However, you have to be careful that it isn't just a relationship problem between the FI and the student.
In this case, I'd be talking to the CFI, let them fly with the student to ascertain what's going on. Then as as CFI I'd have handed the student to someone else who may be more suitable.
If this still doesn't work, then you should talk to the student about it. FInd out what and why they are struggling. The worst students for this are the inconsistent ones. One day they are fine and you think "great, we've cracked it!" and the next flight they seem unable to even work out how to open the door.
In one case. I took a student aside and had a full and frank discussion about it. I didn't want to waste his time and money, but he was determined to prove me wrong and wanted to continue no matter what.
For me that resolved the matter. He never got a licence, but we did manage to get him off solo and that was good enough for him. He knew the options and our opinions and no-one was pulling the wool over his eyes. It was his choice to continue.
If someone wants to go flying and knows that they may never get a licence, but continues anyway, then it is our duty to support them as much as we can. You never know, we do get it wrong and they may surprise you.
In fact my best moments as an FI have come from seeing students who initially you thought were hopeless becoming safe and competent pilots and gaining a licence.
Far better than just flying with bright young things who zip through in minimum hours with no real effort or input from the FI.
However, you have to be careful that it isn't just a relationship problem between the FI and the student.
In this case, I'd be talking to the CFI, let them fly with the student to ascertain what's going on. Then as as CFI I'd have handed the student to someone else who may be more suitable.
If this still doesn't work, then you should talk to the student about it. FInd out what and why they are struggling. The worst students for this are the inconsistent ones. One day they are fine and you think "great, we've cracked it!" and the next flight they seem unable to even work out how to open the door.
In one case. I took a student aside and had a full and frank discussion about it. I didn't want to waste his time and money, but he was determined to prove me wrong and wanted to continue no matter what.
For me that resolved the matter. He never got a licence, but we did manage to get him off solo and that was good enough for him. He knew the options and our opinions and no-one was pulling the wool over his eyes. It was his choice to continue.
If someone wants to go flying and knows that they may never get a licence, but continues anyway, then it is our duty to support them as much as we can. You never know, we do get it wrong and they may surprise you.
In fact my best moments as an FI have come from seeing students who initially you thought were hopeless becoming safe and competent pilots and gaining a licence.
Far better than just flying with bright young things who zip through in minimum hours with no real effort or input from the FI.
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I would suggest that you can't be certain that they won't eventually make the grade and then be a good pilot, (whatever that is). Some people just take a long time to learn new skills, but often they are then as good, if not better than faster learners.
I think all you can say is that it is clear that it is going to take them a lot longer, and therefore a lot more money to get a licence. Are they willing to invest a lot more time and money to learn to fly?
The people who worry me are those, who just don't seem responsible enough, although they are often quick learners.
I think all you can say is that it is clear that it is going to take them a lot longer, and therefore a lot more money to get a licence. Are they willing to invest a lot more time and money to learn to fly?
The people who worry me are those, who just don't seem responsible enough, although they are often quick learners.
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For me that resolved the matter. He never got a licence, but we did manage to get him off solo and that was good enough for him. He knew the options and our opinions and no-one was pulling the wool over his eyes. It was his choice to continue.
I can remember her screaming over the radio that she couldnt land the aircraft. It took another aircraft and a lot of talking to get her to regain her composure and to land back on the runway.
It must be a hard descision to send someone solo who you have serious doubts about?
Pace
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It was no worse than sending anyone else off really. There's always that element of doubt as to how they might handle it, but if you've covered everything, they've had a good session or two before hand then away they go.
Mind you, that one did have a big audience and plenty of "You've done what..............................!!!!"
Mind you, that one did have a big audience and plenty of "You've done what..............................!!!!"
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I have come across this situation before on just a couple of occasions. In those cases I did not believe it impossible that the person could learn to fly. I did think that they would be throwing a lot of time effort and money at it. At the end of the day it is there decision if they want to continue and who am I to tell them what they can or can't do? Just as long as they are making an informed choice, and I have made sure that they are aware of how I feel they are progressing.
In one of these cases we subsequently found the student was regularly working upwards of 80 hours per week and sleeping a whole lot less than he should have. It was amazing he could fly as well as he was! In his case it was subsequently proven that with adequate rest he flew very nicely indeed.
In other cases I have recieved students at the school who had been told by previous organisations that they would never learn to fly, and have delighted in getting them up to solo and beyond. Sometimes instructor and student just do not gel.
Before you decide it is a hopeless case, consider that there may be a good reason for the lack of progress.
One final thought (I don't know whether it is the same every where), but it would seem that those not blessed with handling skills generally make up for it in airmanship, while those who control the aircraft well see it as the be all and end all (generally the teenage would be fighter pilots).
In one of these cases we subsequently found the student was regularly working upwards of 80 hours per week and sleeping a whole lot less than he should have. It was amazing he could fly as well as he was! In his case it was subsequently proven that with adequate rest he flew very nicely indeed.
In other cases I have recieved students at the school who had been told by previous organisations that they would never learn to fly, and have delighted in getting them up to solo and beyond. Sometimes instructor and student just do not gel.
Before you decide it is a hopeless case, consider that there may be a good reason for the lack of progress.
One final thought (I don't know whether it is the same every where), but it would seem that those not blessed with handling skills generally make up for it in airmanship, while those who control the aircraft well see it as the be all and end all (generally the teenage would be fighter pilots).
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There are a few who are unsuitable to be pilots. One that I had to chop had a severe problem with narcolepsy - in other words he used to fall asleep during the lesson! Another guy suffered from inability to recall what he had been taught four days previously and used to do things in a haphazard way based on the fact that he knew he should be doing something at a certain point - eg. retract flaps at 300 feet on climb out - he would reduce the throttle etc. (Environmental shift?) Another could never overcome his nausea and threw up every time we descended to land. Clearly all unsuitable to continue training.
Incidentally, my first instructor wrote in my student records that I would never learn to fly! Here I am 20 years and 7500 hours later, having trained over 150 instructors...but there we are - some 24 year old boys have remarkably little ability to judge the potential of older women and display their immaturity and lack of teaching ability by yelling, shouting, abusing and showing off to their students. It is all about empathy and patience.
Incidentally, my first instructor wrote in my student records that I would never learn to fly! Here I am 20 years and 7500 hours later, having trained over 150 instructors...but there we are - some 24 year old boys have remarkably little ability to judge the potential of older women and display their immaturity and lack of teaching ability by yelling, shouting, abusing and showing off to their students. It is all about empathy and patience.
Dancing with the devil, going with the flow... it's all a game to me.
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I say stick with any student who struggles, you are paid to teach and pass your evaluations after each lesson. If you explain to the student that their progress is below that of an average student and highlight how this will cost them more than perhaps initially planned then they can then make their own mind up. It is never for us to say "YOU should not be flying". If you tell them to quit they'll only go to the school down the road and start over again. Might as well hold on to the custom. Most instructors who attempt to put students off are only doing so for an easy life.
I have had my quota of nutty types, same as most other instructors and I won't pretend I enjoyed it. Some unwittingly gambled with my sense of safety and drove me to the sanctity of a large pint at close of business. My lesson learned is to just keep it simple and certainly keep it dual until the moment comes... if indeed it ever does. Oh, and don't let things get to the stage whereby you rely on your superior flying skills to get you out of situations that could've been avoided by your superior judgement! If it means evercise 6 for ten lessons then so be it - you decided to become an instructor so lump it and work harder to solve the problem.
VFE.
I have had my quota of nutty types, same as most other instructors and I won't pretend I enjoyed it. Some unwittingly gambled with my sense of safety and drove me to the sanctity of a large pint at close of business. My lesson learned is to just keep it simple and certainly keep it dual until the moment comes... if indeed it ever does. Oh, and don't let things get to the stage whereby you rely on your superior flying skills to get you out of situations that could've been avoided by your superior judgement! If it means evercise 6 for ten lessons then so be it - you decided to become an instructor so lump it and work harder to solve the problem.
VFE.
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Hello!
Never ever tell a student that he is "bad", "below standard" or anything negative at all. This will slow him/her down even more, because it makes them nervous and afraid of making even more mistakes. If your FTO requires you to fill in grade sheets, hide them from the "bad" students. Or "forget" to bring them, when they ask about it. Or "forget" to fill them in (thats what I do, followed by a phone call to the instructor who is going to fly next with this student in which I tell him what to look for).
Instead, highlight their strengths as much as you can ("I like the way you prepare your flights" or "You are really our only student who is always here on time" if no other positive remark about the flying can be made), followed by one but (and really only one but per flight!) adressing a weakness. Give them homework to do to help them get better, like doing navigation excercises on their PC simulator or memorising their checkpoints along the route.
For me, the real challenge of instructing is making good pilots out of not-perfectly-talented people. Flying with good students is just boring in comparison
Over the years I have only had one hopeless case. A real gentleman, recently retired automotive executive, who used to travel on business jets at work and who wanted to finally fulfill a dream of his youth by learning to fly. All the instructors of our school took their chance with him, but it just didn't work out. After nearly 100 flying hours (money didn't matter to him), he realised that it would not lead anywhere, and begged the school owner to let him do one single solo pattern. Just one. But no instructor (including the owner and the CFI) had the courage to sign for it. A real pity, as he was (is?) such a nice man. To me, failure at instructing feels much worse than making my own mistakes.
Greetings, Max
If you explain to the student that their progress is below that of an average student ...
Instead, highlight their strengths as much as you can ("I like the way you prepare your flights" or "You are really our only student who is always here on time" if no other positive remark about the flying can be made), followed by one but (and really only one but per flight!) adressing a weakness. Give them homework to do to help them get better, like doing navigation excercises on their PC simulator or memorising their checkpoints along the route.
For me, the real challenge of instructing is making good pilots out of not-perfectly-talented people. Flying with good students is just boring in comparison
Over the years I have only had one hopeless case. A real gentleman, recently retired automotive executive, who used to travel on business jets at work and who wanted to finally fulfill a dream of his youth by learning to fly. All the instructors of our school took their chance with him, but it just didn't work out. After nearly 100 flying hours (money didn't matter to him), he realised that it would not lead anywhere, and begged the school owner to let him do one single solo pattern. Just one. But no instructor (including the owner and the CFI) had the courage to sign for it. A real pity, as he was (is?) such a nice man. To me, failure at instructing feels much worse than making my own mistakes.
Greetings, Max
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£40k+ NPPL!
Hi Guys,
Quite recently, I came across a guy who, I am reliably informed, had apparently done about 300 hrs Cessna spamcan flying at a UK club (£40K+?) just to get an NPPL.
He took up flying to overcome a fear of flying; but despite his NPPL flying still terrifies him. He still never flies without an instructor in the right hand seat.
Worst of all, he is a small businessman and had to remortgage his home to fund this training. He now has no pension provision and a mortgage debt so large that he will never be able to afford to retire: he will have to work until he drops.
He won't give up flying because that would make his past expenditure seem a complete waste of money, so he goes on flying even though he has this huge debt.
If I had been a club proprietor, and had done this to somebody, I wouldn't be able to sleep at night.
I feel any decent flying club or FTO has a duty to chop people who prove to have very poor flying ability - in their own interests.
Broomstick.
Quite recently, I came across a guy who, I am reliably informed, had apparently done about 300 hrs Cessna spamcan flying at a UK club (£40K+?) just to get an NPPL.
He took up flying to overcome a fear of flying; but despite his NPPL flying still terrifies him. He still never flies without an instructor in the right hand seat.
Worst of all, he is a small businessman and had to remortgage his home to fund this training. He now has no pension provision and a mortgage debt so large that he will never be able to afford to retire: he will have to work until he drops.
He won't give up flying because that would make his past expenditure seem a complete waste of money, so he goes on flying even though he has this huge debt.
If I had been a club proprietor, and had done this to somebody, I wouldn't be able to sleep at night.
I feel any decent flying club or FTO has a duty to chop people who prove to have very poor flying ability - in their own interests.
Broomstick.
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Understand all that Max, but I hardly consider that a softly delivered chat including the line "below that of an average learner" or "progress much slower" is really doing anything other than putting that student in the light. If they cannot accept this news then they have a serious problem but the only 3 people who I've had the misfortune to deliver such news to have thanked me for it and accepted it with great dignity and understanding, often happy to continue, with no misapprehensions. Praise all you lilke but 99% of people know when they are underachieving and all you serve to do by continuing with the jolly instructor act is to make yourself look like a poor deluded madman... or worse - a penny pinching crook! There's daftness and stupidity and that strays the line - be honest and they'll thank you.
VFE.
VFE.
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What Next:
No, you have to be honest and open. You cannot believe for an instant that you are the only source of information to your students. They read books, magazines and various internet forums like this one. They know the milestones, and to make matters worse the magazines only publish the successes of the 16 year who went solo after just 10 hours, or the 17 year old issued with a licence on his birthday after just the minimum required training. Those examples would be exceptional cases and the student needs reassurance that they are not lagging behind. Similarly, you have to be honest when things aren't going so well. Will the student make progress if there is no trust or respect for the instructor?
Hiding the negatives denys them the ability to improve on there mistakes and saying things like: "you really are the only student who turns up on time but xxxx was not good" may be with good intentions, but sounds patronising.
Yes they have to be given positives and made to realise what has been achieved during the lesson, but overall you must be honest.
My method:
First of all ask the student what they thought (you will get an indication of there confidence and how they feel they are progressing, as well as getting them to analyse what went wrong - because most of them do recognise it).
Second, discuss the negatives.
Third, explain to them how we will address those negatives.
Finally, tell them what they did well.
In some cases it is not always lack of ability but, lack of motivation. Students who are making errors in flight because they are not doing the work at home, whether that be ground studies or re reading the exercise they have just completed. I have a student who has good aptitude but is no longer progressing because no matter how hard you push, he cannot be bothered to do the ground exams. The one that he has passed is no longer valid and his knowledge is poor. He has been told to that extent. He had to be: he's throwing money away and his attitude to flying is all wrong.
With regard to the good students being boring. Not really. While I accept it is great to help a student of below average ability achieve a dream. It is just a satisfying to ensure the above average student gets a license in minimum hours.
No, you have to be honest and open. You cannot believe for an instant that you are the only source of information to your students. They read books, magazines and various internet forums like this one. They know the milestones, and to make matters worse the magazines only publish the successes of the 16 year who went solo after just 10 hours, or the 17 year old issued with a licence on his birthday after just the minimum required training. Those examples would be exceptional cases and the student needs reassurance that they are not lagging behind. Similarly, you have to be honest when things aren't going so well. Will the student make progress if there is no trust or respect for the instructor?
Hiding the negatives denys them the ability to improve on there mistakes and saying things like: "you really are the only student who turns up on time but xxxx was not good" may be with good intentions, but sounds patronising.
Yes they have to be given positives and made to realise what has been achieved during the lesson, but overall you must be honest.
My method:
First of all ask the student what they thought (you will get an indication of there confidence and how they feel they are progressing, as well as getting them to analyse what went wrong - because most of them do recognise it).
Second, discuss the negatives.
Third, explain to them how we will address those negatives.
Finally, tell them what they did well.
In some cases it is not always lack of ability but, lack of motivation. Students who are making errors in flight because they are not doing the work at home, whether that be ground studies or re reading the exercise they have just completed. I have a student who has good aptitude but is no longer progressing because no matter how hard you push, he cannot be bothered to do the ground exams. The one that he has passed is no longer valid and his knowledge is poor. He has been told to that extent. He had to be: he's throwing money away and his attitude to flying is all wrong.
With regard to the good students being boring. Not really. While I accept it is great to help a student of below average ability achieve a dream. It is just a satisfying to ensure the above average student gets a license in minimum hours.
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I feel any decent flying club or FTO has a duty to chop people who prove to have very poor flying ability - in their own interests.
Here you touch on some people who should not fly. The guy you talk about obviously has a massive fear but failing to beat that fear means he would rather loose all he has than feel beaten and there are people like that.
I knew of a business jet pilot who had issues. His father was a very successful airline pilot. he had a drink problem and drove himself in his flying.
He was a capable pilot but I often wondered about his motives for being there and whether he would not be a happier person doing something else?
Therefore maybe its more the case of indentifying pilots or would be pilots who dont really enjoy what they are doing but are driven by other reasons to be there.
Pace
I am a bit concerned that in message 5, SAS says that someone that was thought to be incapable of reaching the required standard was sent solo.
My understanding of the competence required to go solo suggests having enough skill in all of the critical stages of the aircraft handling/procedures/co-ordination to be expected to bring the aircraft (and the student!) back in one piece. All that you do after that is adding the judgement to do it unsupervised.
Wouldn't getting to this point suggest that someone is capable of going on to get a licence?
As an aside, a few years ago I (a low hours microlight pilot at the time) was having dinner with a recently retired airline pilot (gazillions of hours) some where in France when he came out with the self evident fact that you actually become a pilot when you complete your first successful solo circuit.
Andrew.
My understanding of the competence required to go solo suggests having enough skill in all of the critical stages of the aircraft handling/procedures/co-ordination to be expected to bring the aircraft (and the student!) back in one piece. All that you do after that is adding the judgement to do it unsupervised.
Wouldn't getting to this point suggest that someone is capable of going on to get a licence?
As an aside, a few years ago I (a low hours microlight pilot at the time) was having dinner with a recently retired airline pilot (gazillions of hours) some where in France when he came out with the self evident fact that you actually become a pilot when you complete your first successful solo circuit.
Andrew.
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Pace, now you are entering ridiculous territory - questioning a persons motives for wishing to fly?! That, as far as I am concerned, is none of my business. Do Threshers question customers motives when they purchase a bottle of bubbly? Of course not.
I am a flying instructor, not a psychiatrist.
Some instructors really do step outside their remit sometimes - I know of one who, not content with being a mere instructor, decided they were now a GP and told a student to lose weight before their flying lesson despite the fact the student held a class two medical and the C172 was more than capable of carrying their weight within limits!
Our job is to teach someone how to fly. Remember that.
I suggest we leave the persons motives, medical issues and perceived psychological issues to the AME's and just get on with our job. It's getting worse than the Jeremy Kyle show on here!
VFE.
I am a flying instructor, not a psychiatrist.
Some instructors really do step outside their remit sometimes - I know of one who, not content with being a mere instructor, decided they were now a GP and told a student to lose weight before their flying lesson despite the fact the student held a class two medical and the C172 was more than capable of carrying their weight within limits!
Our job is to teach someone how to fly. Remember that.
I suggest we leave the persons motives, medical issues and perceived psychological issues to the AME's and just get on with our job. It's getting worse than the Jeremy Kyle show on here!
VFE.
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rans don't start pulling apart situation that you weren't a part of and have no knowledge apart from what is typed.
I've been around flying training for a while and was part of an extremely professional team of FI's who all worked their backsides off to get this chap off solo.
He wasn't utterly useless all the time, he was an inconsistent pilot. One day good, the next day appalling. Luckily one of his good days coincided with good weather and we were able to get him off for a single solo cct.
There wasn't a chance in hell that he was ever going to be able to get a licence. The reasons are many and varied and as any idiot who's been an FI for more than 5 minutes knows, some people just aren't able to get there.
The vast majority can be brought up to a decent standard, but not everyone can and it isn't always a reflection on the FI if a student fails.
I've personally dealt with students who are illiterate, lazy, clever, thick as mince, driven, young, old and even some who are just normal people! There aren't many I've not managed to get through their test. In fact it's only this one chap so it's not exactly something that happens a lot.
I've been around flying training for a while and was part of an extremely professional team of FI's who all worked their backsides off to get this chap off solo.
He wasn't utterly useless all the time, he was an inconsistent pilot. One day good, the next day appalling. Luckily one of his good days coincided with good weather and we were able to get him off for a single solo cct.
There wasn't a chance in hell that he was ever going to be able to get a licence. The reasons are many and varied and as any idiot who's been an FI for more than 5 minutes knows, some people just aren't able to get there.
The vast majority can be brought up to a decent standard, but not everyone can and it isn't always a reflection on the FI if a student fails.
I've personally dealt with students who are illiterate, lazy, clever, thick as mince, driven, young, old and even some who are just normal people! There aren't many I've not managed to get through their test. In fact it's only this one chap so it's not exactly something that happens a lot.
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"any idiot who's been an FI for more than 5 minutes knows, some people just aren't able to get there."
"There aren't many I've not managed to get through their test."
Sounds like a damn good Instructor to me, keep the good work up say-again!
"There aren't many I've not managed to get through their test."
Sounds like a damn good Instructor to me, keep the good work up say-again!