Forced landing in sea.

[Lister Noble]

Following on from the recent tragic accident.
I’m sure I have a book somewhere with the answers but cannot find it.
Engine failure above sea, and not able to glide to land so must ditch in water.

After calling Mayday and switching off power and fuel.

Do you approach along sea waves and troughs, although this would put you crosswind?
Do you fly across waves only if wind is strong?
Do you fly normal landing aspect if in a taildragger?
Do you open windows and doors before impact?
Keep harness secure and release immediately after impact?

Lister

[DavidHoul52]

CAA has a safety leaflet (http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/33/ga_srg_07webSSL21.pdf)

[SNS3Guppy]

Lister,

Water landings, or ditchings, are done differently depending on the conditions. If you're approaching glassy water, a stable descent until water contact is necessary, and one should never attempt to flare. This is a time when minimum sink airpeed (not best glide) should be maintained until the aircraft hits the water.

You don't want to land into the back of a swell (upwind side), parallel to the crest. Timing against a swell is difficult, so where possible, land parallel to the swells. If you're drifting sideways with the wind, not so big a deal...you're not worried about landing while drifting this time, because the water is also moving.

If you can, and wave heights are very small, landing into the wind reduces your forward velocity. However, if you hit at the wrong time, you also face greater penalties.

Water landings mean you quite possibly won't remain upright. You may begin to sink soon after impact. You may not be able to see well, and you need to know your cockpit by feel, rightside up or upside down. You can use your seat belts and shoulder harness to stay oriented by following them back to their anchor point, but keep everything tight and in place until the aircraft comes to a rest.

If the airplane begins to sink you may not be able to open a door until the presure has equalized; this means flooding the cockpit to get the doors open. If the doors are left closed during landing, you may not be able to open them after impact; a little twisting of the airframe may jam them fast. You should refer to the manufacturers ditching instructions, but you're usually best opening doors and wedging something in them to keep them opened.

Deceleration and stopping will be considerably more firm and uncomfortable than a land landing. Keep your belts tight. If you have time, secure any loose items or if you have no further need, jettison them. If you're overflyin water, hopefully you've taken the precaution of bringing flotation gear. Put it on, don't inflate it because it will make your exit from the aircraft very difficult or impossible.

If you think a lifevest is too expensive and you have elected not to carry them, now might be a good time to invest at a minimum in something, even if it's a kiddie duck ring or something like that...you'll be grateful for anything you can get when you're in the water. (rapid inflation devices are available for bicycle tires using Co2 cartridges...these don't take up much room in a flight bag and can be used to quickly fill up small rafts, or other flotation gear...anything is better than nothing).

This becomes a very important time for you to have filed a flight plan and be communicating with someone. You won't last long in most bodies of water. Hypothermia can set in quickly. You'll fatigue quickly. You'll often cramp quickly. If you've never tried treading water in your clothes, give it a shot. I used to go to the pool every day and tread water in my clothes or flight gear for 45 minutes to an hour. It's not as easy as you think. You don't want to be out there any longer than you need be.

Keep a watch out for boat traffic. Get as close as you can...that may be your lifeline.

Some recommend getting your shoes off. You're going to want them off once you're clear, but I'd recommend keeping them on until you're clear; they'll protect your feet, and you may be dealing with twisted metal.

Be careful about holding the airplane off or trying to stall it in. I don't know how many times I've heard pilots say that's what they'd do...but I've never heard it from someone who's had any experience doing water landings. If you have some water training and you can judge the height above the waves that's one thing...after all, one lands floats. But if you haven't done it, now's not the time to start learning. It's too easy above the water to misjudge your height, and your vertical speed is far more dangerous than your forward speed. Trying to bleed off extra speed or stall it in is risky; Get it down, get it landed. But don't try to stave off landing at the expense of losing airspeed or control; keep it under control all the way to touchdown.

Something about water that you don't get on land...you can see the airflow over the water. Gusts are visible, and you can use that to your advantage. Gusts and wind show up as disturbances on the surface of the water, and they help form the swells and waves you see, too. Sometimes foam wind streaks will be visible showing the direction of the wind.

With small waves or ripples, land into the wind, but where there's any doubt, land with the swells, on the face of the swell, on the upwind side. Get the doors open, get out, don't take with you anything that's not worth your life. If you've got flotation gear, get it it clear if you can, but getting you and your occupants clear is the big thing. The rest can sink and be replaced later.

Something you can carry that may save your life in the water is a large trash bag. A very large bag, one you can get into if you draw your legs up, can be pulled around your shoulders. Your body heat will warm the water in the bag and it will help insulate you. In an absolute emergency (which you can safely conclude a water landing IS), a garbage bag can provide some temporary flotation by tying off the open end. Go with the heavy duty ones...it goes without saying.

[LH2]

A very good post above. If I could add a couple more details, based on my HUET training:

* Before ditching, attach your liferaft's painter line to the aircraft (e.g., to a seatframe). This prevents it from drifting away from you, esp. in rough seas (if you're thinking the aircraft will go down with the liferaft tied to it, the painter line has a weak link which will break after the hydrostatic valve inflates the raft).

* A landing in cold waters is for practical purposes non-survivable unless you are wearing an immersion suit or other adequate protection, and are trained for the eventuality. Ever heard of cold shock? You can read about what it's like on this PDF (http://www.usna.edu/sailing/training/sas/sas2005/hypothermia.pdf), for example.


But again, the above was a very good post. Anyone who has not been trained (or experienced it!) and is thinking of posting "advice", should reconsider twice before hitting "Submit"--unplanned immersion in water is nothing like you think it is.

[DavidHoul52]

Where can one get the appropriate training?

[Lister Noble]

David,thats where I saw it.
I had that safety leaflet,in fact I had them all before we moved a few months ago,just need to find them again!

Guppy that is a brilliant post,I sail a lot so know the unrelenting power of the sea.
I fly an L4 Cub so getting the top window and door open should be OK,there are so many holes in the L4 I'm sure pressure would equalise rapidly.
A self inflating lifejacket is the minimum requirement for any hope of survival in busy summer inshore waters around the UK,an immersion suit or liferaft is essential for anything more than immediate rescue.
Thanks again.
Lister

[LH2]

Where can one get the appropriate training?

Nutec Uk (http://www.nutecuk.com/) for example.

[AMEandPPL]

A landing in cold waters is for practical purposes non-survivable unless you are wearing an immersion suit

I can vouch for that, having had the good fortune to experience some of the survival training which was carried out at the (former) RAF Mountbatten. We were taken out about six miles into the English Channel - - it was February, and it was snowing - - and we were thrown off the boat !

You might not believe how cosy you can eventually feel in an immersion suit in a single seat life-raft !

Thank God, I've never had to consider ditching for real.

[Maoraigh1]

I almost always wear a lifejacket when flying in the Scottish Highlands. I doubt my ability to get one on securely in a sinking aircraft, or in the cockpit gliding down.
Over land, a loch (near the shore) would often be the best option for puting down if the engine failed.
From dinghy sailing and canoeing in winter many years ago, without wet suits or survival suits, the effect of cold water immersion varies greatly from person to person. Wet wool gives some insulation. I'd keep my footware on, for insulation.
Fortunately my usual aircraft has a poorly heated, draughty, cabin, so I dress warmly.
There's a U.S. site somewhere listing statistics for survival of ditchings near land. Survival is very likely, if a lifejacket is worn.

[Chuck Ellsworth]

I hesitate to get into this discussion, however discussing how how to land on swells is not all that simple to give advice on.

How does one determine if there in fact are swells running especially at wide angles to a wave pattern?

Or even more dangerous is a swell running with a glassy or near glassy water condition...how do you determine if they are there and the direction the swells are moving?

[SNS3Guppy]

Chuck,

The simple answer is that it's not simple. Unless someone has spent considerable time on the water and over the water and is familiar not only with water behavior in generaly, but local behavior, it's a crap shoot. When one is in the position of making an unscheduled, forced landing as the result of an engine failure or other condition, with blood pressure high, and concern at a peak, judgement is made even more difficult.

For those who fly over water frequently, I strongly recommend at a minimum an introduction to seaplane flying. Unfortunately, this is nearly always done from a lake or a sheltered area, which still takes a lot of the judgement out of the learning process.

I think the best that can be said is that it's an emergency, and the person forced into this situation can only make the best of it as able.

With swells in particular, the overall wave pattern isn't so important as is blending with the swell (unless one is landing against them/or waves, and into the wind). What the rest of the ocean is doing at the time isn't really relevant, compared to the position one touches down on with the swell.

What can happen, however, is an attempt to land on the crest of a swell meets an overshoot or undershoot. Where the water was just below you before, now it's just air, and for the pilot who attempts to grease the airplane onto the water, now there's a ten foot drop or more, with another swell or wave coming over the top.

An emergency water landing isn't so much about finesse as getting down and getting clear.

Or even more dangerous is a swell running with a glassy or near glassy water condition...how do you determine if they are there and the direction the swells are moving?


As addressed before, glassy water landings are in a class by themselves. Highly desceptive, depth perception is nearly impossible. An approach to landing should be made at minimum sink speed, constant descent until water contact. With angled light there's a greater chance for shadowing, but if it's truly glassy water, then having an idea of the surface winds and planning accordingly is the best bet.

[Chuck Ellsworth]

As addressed before, glassy water landings are in a class by themselves. Highly desceptive, depth perception is nearly impossible.

Depth perception is not nearly impossible on glassy water " it is " impossible.


An approach to landing should be made at minimum sink speed, constant descent until water contact.

That is correct in the case of an engine out in a single engine airplane with glassy water you should aim for minimum sink speed...and pray.


With angled light there's a greater chance for shadowing, but if it's truly glassy water, then having an idea of the surface winds and planning accordingly is the best bet.

I am not exactly sure what you mean by that last part.....if there is a surface wind there will be ripples on the surface of the water and it is no longer a glassy water surface because once you get any wind there will be at least ripples and the surface then becomes definable.

Landing on water with even small waves/ripples is no big deal as far as judging height goes for the flare altitude.

When doing initial sea plane training I have the pilot being trained do all approaches and landings with the throttle/'s closed from 200 feet until they are proficient at flaring and landing without using power.

I have been training sea plane pilots for fifty years and have never had any problem with them learning to flare and land power off...it is just a matter of getting the proper sight picture and changing the attitude at the proper height above the water.

A lot of my clients are heavy jet drivers and at first it is a bit strange to them but they soon learn to land power off and then I let them use power as they see fit.

During the last fifty feet I count down the height to the surface (From 25 feet to five feet I count down in five foot increments, from five feet to touch down I count in one foot increments. ) this aids them in judging height and the closure rate and the sight picture that is required to approach, flare and touch down in the proper attitude.

I use a camcorder and we de-brief on a TV screen.

When they screw up an approach/flare/landing I stop the video and I have them use a laser pen and put the dot where they were looking at that point in time and ask them what they were thinking at that moment with regard to height above the water......it works like a charm as a de-briefing tool.

Generally they are looking to far ahead and their ability to judge height is affected.

Ocean swells are a subject that really would be difficult to go into in any depth on a private pilot forum as there are so many variables and methods of judging their presence and behavior. I have seen them with around four hundred feet from crest to crest and deep enough in the trough that all you can see is a wall of water in front of you and the sky.

[SNS3Guppy]

Agreed, Chuck. I'm a little hesitant to go into too much detail on a private pilot forum, especially with topics such as glassy water landings, because unless someone has performed one, it's often an ineffective talk. I can't count the number of times the subject has come up at Wings meetings or safety seminars, or places such as this, on a web board...nearly universally the private pilots who respond answer the same way...they want to stall it into the water and land as slow as possible.

Unless one has seen for himself or herself the lack of depth perception, and has seen a bird crash into the water when even the bird can't judge height, it's really hard to get the point across.

It's part of the reason whenever the subject comes up I always encourage participants to seek a seaplane rating. A seaplane rating still doesn't prepare one for the realities of ditching, but it does give a close up look at water landing, and may give one some idea of the challenges it might impose. That's just one small aspect of a ditching, of course, and there are so many variables to a ditching that one can prepare for that only in generalities.

I usually stress: get down, get out, get clear, float.

I have seen them with around four hundred feet from crest to crest and deep enough in the trough that all you can see is a wall of water in front of you and the sky.


We all have things we have to do just once before we die...this for me isn't one of them. It's something I hope to never see before I die, quite frankly. Hats off to the folks who do, but I'm a land lubber at heart, and have the knees to prove it.

If you're still providing seaplane instruction (didn't you have a twin bee at one point, for multi sea training??--or am I thinking of someone else?--seems from the AOPA boards years ago you were doing twin bee training), it might be a good place for people here to go. I see people posting all the time about going to the US to do float training. I think most here would jump at the chance to go train with you...are you doing that presently?

[jabberwok]

Water landings mean you quite possibly won't remain upright.

Indeed - especially with fixed gear aircraft. I saw a C150 ditch many years ago and the aircraft nosed in as soon as the gear hit the water. Deceleration must have been brutal. When the spray cleared only the tail was above the surface and it was just over the vertical.

The sudden impact also shattered the windscreen so both occupants suffered immersion/thermal shock immediately after impact. The passenger (a pilot) said the disorientation resulting from being wet, cold and nose down seriously affected his ability to think and egress from the aircraft was far longer than he had thought it would be.

We operated from a coastal airfield and had discussed ditching many times. Nothing we had done (including wet dinghy drills) prepared them for the actual experience. Luckily both survived.

[PompeyPaul]

Thanks for the posts sn3guppy. It's gems like those that make reading the bickering / flame war that is pprune worth It.

[Pilot DAR]

To add to Chuck's very informative posts, for the benefit of the wheel plane pilots reading, the concept of power off or power on water landings, be they emergency or routine, is a little different, in that generally "runway" length is not a concern. Yes, there can be tight bays an so forth, but generally you're operating in larger areas, landing on the numbers is not required. Where the issue is overwater flight and ditching, it can be assumed that runway length is not an issue at all. Thus, glidepath control, and precise touchdown along the landing path is less important, making it more possible to concentrate on the lateral precision. Landing along the crest of a swell is somewhat challenging, but doable in that you can approach the landing area at an accute angle, set up on the crest of the swell, and then alter your course slightly to land along the crest. Cross wind is much less a factor. If you're ditching, it is the only safe way. If you're landing a flying boat, it will usualy handle the crosswind fairly well. If you're landing a small floatplane in water with swells large enough to be a factor in a safe landing, you should rethink your plan to land. Small float planes do very poorly in even as much as a 10" wave or swell height. I have been a passenger in a Cessna 185, where the pilot learned this very expensive lesson.

As said, in glassy water conditions, you will not be able to judge your height at all. If you have properly executed your approach, you will come to know your height above the water when it is zero and not before. Stalling onto glassy water cannot be planned so as to be at all safe.

Swimming in an inverted submerged aircraft is very disorienting. I did this many times while recovering flipped over float planes. The cockpit, which was so familar, is now anything other than familar. You know all of the features, but cannot find them (and it's dark, and you're scared). A fellow flipped his Cessna 170 over in front of me (on wheels) while I was waiting to cross the runway. I landed the helicopter next to him to offer assistance. They were not hurt, but the assistance he needed was turning the fuel off! The fuel selector was now on the ceiling, but darned if he could find it! And, that was in prefect conditions, with time to look for it!

Ditching training is well worth the expense. There is a travelling training course available in Canada.

If you're flying over water without at least a suitable life jacket for everyone aboard, you're both illegal, and foolish. If the water is even close to cold, an immersion suit is a must. There are many types which are fine for flying. Be it an immersion suit, or life jacket, pockets are good. Preload them with everything you'll need while floating. Once you're out the door, and the plane is no longer accessable to you, all the rest of your emergency equiment is also inaccessible. What you will have, is what you got out with.

There are certain minimum costs we must incurr to fly, safety equipment appropriate to the location of the flying is certainly one of them. You don't have to fly out over the water, so if you're going to, get the right gear!

Pilot DAR

[Chuck Ellsworth]

sn3guppy, I no longer do any training because I decided to retire when I turned 70 three years ago.

Also I never had a Twin Bee but my first airplane ride was in a Sea Bee in 1947 and I flew one for four years in the fifties.

I still have a couple of web sites because I turned my training for sea planes over to Wings Over Holland when I retired and the guys there are now looking after any PBY flying that may come up as well as flying the Dutch Cat out of The Aviodrome in Lelydstad.

PBY Flight Training - Chuck Ellsworth / Wings Over Holland (http://pbyflighttraining.com/)

I have no idea how many thousands of hours I have on sea planes or even how many different ones I flew, but it was an interesting career and we got to see most of the world at a very slow speed.

My favorite flying in order was.

(1) Movie industry.

(2) Aerial application.

(3) Fire suppression.

The worst was flying in the air show circuit and single pilot IFR courier flying in piston engine airplanes.

I started in the Biplane era and got as far as working with Airbus Industries and got to play with their video game in Toulouse France, which of course is not really flying.

Right now I am assembling a new set of amphibious floats for a new Husky we are using for a new business venture.

Like you I do both flying and mechanical work on airplanes, I kind of prefer the fixing over flying because it requires far more knowledge and work but the satisfaction of doing it is a reward in its self.......salvage work in the high arctic and in the desert was low on the nice to do scale though. :ugh:

[SNS3Guppy]

Like you I do both flying and mechanical work on airplanes, I kind of prefer the fixing over flying because it requires far more knowledge and work but the satisfaction of doing it is a reward in its self.


True story. I've been turning wrenches about as long as I've been flying. I feel like I have a fairly good handle on my flying (though the bare truth is that we're all just student pilots)...but haven't begun to scratch the surface when it comes to maintenance. I've got six rollaways full of tools gathered up over the years...and it always seems like I'm just one tool short of what I need.

I'm very dismayed with the current turn of events in the US with the sport pilot certificate and the maintenance privileges given for that program. An individual with no other experience can get certification to work on LSA airplanes with only 120 hours of training...and go to work turning wrenches commercially on them. That's just not right, and not just a slap in the face to the maintenance profession, but a dangerous trend in my view. Off soapbox.

sn3guppy, I no longer do any training because I decided to retire when I turned 70 three years ago.


I'd probably say your justified. I flew with a flight engineer a few days ago who was 71...and who could beat me up the stairs to the main deck, carrying bags. He told me when he's unable to carry his bags up the stairs any more, he will retire. I carried his bags anyway...just for spite.

salvage work in the high arctic and in the desert was low on the nice to do scale though.


I haven't done that. I do recall sitting on top of an R-2600 one afternoon in -20 degree weather once, in a 30-40 knot wind, changing a cylinder. my fingers, gloved with the tips cut off, kept sticking to things, and I had icicles where I didn't really want them. At some point in the afternoon, in the 8 hours it took to change that cylinder (why does it take twice as long when you can't feel your hands and keep dropping the tools?) I distinctly recall quietly asking myself "what the hell am I doing here?"

I picked up a patient in a King Air one night in Mammoth, CA, in the dead of winter. After wondering around on the ramp for a couple of hours in the freezing cold, while waiting for the ambulance, it finally showed up and I helped load the patient. I slipped my flashlight, which had been in my flightsuit sleeve pocket, in my mouth. It froze to my lips. I pulled off skin when I tried to take it out of my mouth. Same sentiments at the time.

I really don't like cold weather.

You weren't part of Darryl Greenemeyer's B29 recovery up there (AK), were you?

[Chuck Ellsworth]

No I was not involved in that recovery, but myself and another masochist recovered a DC3 on Summerset Island in 1971 that had landed short of the so called runway...the left gear had collapsed and the left engine was fifty feet ahead of the airplane.

We flew in everything we needed in a Twin Otter and all that was showing of the airplane was the top of the fuselage and the tail sticking above the snow, that was in the first week of October.....the sun set for the winter shortly after we started work and fifty nine days later we flew it out of there to Resolute bay.

Not bad for just to guys.

Anyhow I decided to retire at 70 so I could maybe see how other humans live.

Health wise I am still about sixteen and still able to take the G loads of unlimited aerobatics...but don't want to anymore. :ugh:

I am happy I retired when I did because I have seen to many pilots hang in and let time decay their skills to the point they started making dumb mistakes.

I have this opinion regarding pilots, 90% of them are pilots, 5% of them are aviators who are born naturals, 3% are also born natural mechanics.

If you find one of the 3%er's, hire him/her even if you don't need them right now. :ok:

[broadreach]

Delightful thread despite the subject! Thanks, Lister.

Chuck, my mom told me her contractions began in a Sikorsky but that she made it to the hospital on time, as my birth certificate confirms. Back when PBYs were hot stuff.

And, could the "stall it in" recommendation not be more related to fixed gear?

[Chuck Ellsworth]

broadreach, any fixeed wing can be landed in the full stall attitude, as long as the surface you are landing on is within a few feet of the wheels, hull at the point of stall the landing will be acceptable.....

...the one issue that has not been examined in ditching at sea is kinetic energy.

" the kinetic energy of an object is directly proportional to the square of its speed. That means that for a twofold increase in speed, the kinetic energy will increase by a factor of four. "

If your airplane has a fixed gear the airplane will rotate around its vertical center of gravity as soon as the wheels dig into the water, this must be considered when deciding how you plan to contact the water.

I was based at congonhas airport in the winter of 98/99 working with Tam Airlines flying a PBY that they were involved in.

Big city that Sao Paulo!:ok:

[NutLoose]

jabberwok (http://www.pprune.org/members/32989-jabberwok)

Join Date: May 2001
Location: up North
Posts: 641


Quote:
Water landings mean you quite possibly won't remain upright.
Indeed - especially with fixed gear aircraft. I saw a C150 ditch many years ago and the aircraft nosed in as soon as the gear hit the water. Deceleration must have been brutal. When the spray cleared only the tail was above the surface and it was just over the vertical.

The sudden impact also shattered the windscreen so both occupants suffered immersion/thermal shock immediately after impact. The passenger (a pilot) said the disorientation resulting from being wet, cold and nose down seriously affected his ability to think and egress from the aircraft was far longer than he had thought it would be.

We operated from a coastal airfield and had discussed ditching many times. Nothing we had done (including wet dinghy drills) prepared them for the actual experience. Luckily both survived.


Indeed this film will bring ditching home, and this is a Cessna float plane that has had the wheels left down..... not a draggy undercarriage as on a 150.... Frightening.

http://www.alexisparkinn.com/photogallery/Videos/WheelsDownAmphibWaterLanding.mpg

As for allowing the pressure to equalise to allow the door to open, did you see the water training of late on Top Gear where Richard Hammond conducted some tests getting out of a car...... even when the car filled there was still a pressure difference and he was unable to open the door until the thing had reached the bottom and the pressure equalised...... they stated that as the car fills slowly when it sinks the outside pressure is always greater than the internal pressure even when full of water and it is only when it reaches the bottom and equalised could he open it...... so they have now for cars at least changed the recommendations to get out as quickly as possible.

Please watch

YouTube - Top Gear - Wild car stunt - part two of Top Gear underwater escape pt 2 - BBC (http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=oyx1E2s-tsE)

it may one day save your life.

[Pace]

Excellent films which both show the reality of water landings and may make you think the next time heading out over the Sea.

As someone who scuba dives, (years ago a lot now only on exotic holidays :) Diving gives you a better understanding of that element and makes you more cautious of the reality of the sea close too.

Part of the pre landing drills should be to open the door and wedge a large cushion in there to keep the door open.

Flying along at 2-3000 feet does give a false sense of security. Those harmlless looking white caps turn into 30 foot high brick wall waves on close inspection.

I do not have absolute faith in piston singles and admire the pure guts or stupidity of ferry pilots who trundle them to and from Canada to Europe.
They cross the most violent and cold seas.

Give me a twin anytime statistics or no statistics it is a very calming thing to see two engines purring away when over large areas of sea.

I wonder if there has ever been inflatable air bags developed for singles which cross large areas of water. As theoretically strategically placed they should keep the ship afloat.

The Cirrus carries an emergency shute a kit for emergency air bags should be feasable for water landings.

Pace

[tuscan]

A self inflating lifejacket is the minimum requirement for any hope of survival in busy summer inshore waters

Lister,

I assume you meant for sailing purposes only as this would impede your exit from an aircraft if submerged.

I have been fortunate enough to try ditching and escape training dozens of times over the years due to offshore oilfield work, including trying to get out of a submerged cabin with a bouyancy aid fitted (to simulate an inflated vest). I did not succeed and the divers hauled me out, I must add that I had a rebreather system on and was in no danger.

For those interested in stats, water will drain heat from your body up to 26 times faster than air.,,,,,,
Thats why it is important to remain calm and not try to swim around as this will increase the blood flow to the skin surface where it will loose heat immediately.

[Lister Noble]

Yes ,marine use only for auto inflating jackets,ie inflate by CO2 as soon as in contact with water.

I take self inflating to mean by use of manual CO2 cylinder,but as always stand to be corrected.:)
Sorry for any confusion.

I still have some old sailing life jackets with inflation by mouth,tricky if not inflated before going over the side!
Lister

[Southern Cross]

Interesting comments and thoughts on this thread.

What are the thoughts of those of you with in depth (no pun intended sorry) knowledge of ditching, practical or theoretical, regarding bailing out if you have a parachute and height enough to do safely bail out, rather than ditching?

Would your answer be different depending on the type of aircraft eg radial engine ratractable, radial engine fixed gear, biplane fixed gear radial engine?

Looking forward to your thoughts.

SC.

[Pace]

Southern Cross

There are so many factors to consider? the construction of the aircraft? Is it plastic with sealed compartments and with Polystyrene filling and fairly buoyant.

Is it fixed gear or retractable? What is the surface of the sea like? smooth, choppy or 50 foot waves?

What is the surface wind like. Calm or 40 kts meaning your toughdown speed maybe 20 kts or less. What is the stall speed of the aircraft and hence touchdown speed?

If you jumped out what happens to your life raft what happens to your Life Jackets should the aircraft float is it a good idea to end up some way from it?

I think contemplating such an event in the luxury and warmth you have in font of your computer is very different compared to possibly landing into waves the size of houses and into freezing cold water.

Like in anything its about risk reduction so dont go unless the sea is calm dont go around dusk when there will not be time to find you. Make sure you carry all the survival gear you can possibly carry and above all do not have a blind faith in things mechanical ie piston engines.

As I have stated before always have an OUT for any situation in flying. As soon as you dont have an OUT you are playing Russian Roulette and one day you may pull the trigger with the bullit in it.

Ie if you must fly a single over long water distances make sure you have every scenario covered and plan for the worst case or take a twin :)

The only parachute is on a cirrus. The undercarriage is very much part of the shock absorbtion so you would probably break your back going into water under the chute.

Personally I would rather stay with the aircraft than jumping out and rely on my skills to put her in.

Pace

[SNS3Guppy]

What are the thoughts of those of you with in depth (no pun intended sorry) knowledge of ditching, practical or theoretical, regarding bailing out if you have a parachute and height enough to do safely bail out, rather than ditching?

Would your answer be different depending on the type of aircraft eg radial engine ratractable, radial engine fixed gear, biplane fixed gear radial engine?


How about thoughts on the subject from jumpers?

Water jumps are not the same as land jumps. The worst that can happen following a land jump is that you may get dragged, and there are ways to collapse a canopy or cut it away. In the water, however, a canopy becomes a sea anchor. Lines on many modern parachutes are spectra or kevlar and difficult if not near impossible to cut. The canopy can drown you, the rig can restrict you. Most modern rigs don't have the older B12 snaps which allow you to quickly release your leg straps...getting in and out of the parachute harness isn't so easy.

Once you're in the water, unless you're wearing an inflatable LPU (life preserver unit) you're not not going to float for long. You're going to need protection from hypothermia...even relatively water will sap your energy and kill you before long. 50-60 degrees F is certainly cool enough to kill you, and much colder, you can expect your survival time to go down drastically.

What you're wearing makes a difference, both in the amount of heat loss you'll experience, and the amount of exertion you'll have to do to fight the clothing as you try to tread water or swim.

If you've never searched for a person from the air in water, you may not appreciate how difficult a single person is to find. If you're not with the aircraft, but floating on your own, you may well survive but never be found...and then not survive after all.

In some cases modern zero porosity parachute gear can be used for flotation, but if you're going to do this you need training.

In my opinion, nobody should put on a parachute without proper training and some jump experience...if you're going to wear one for aerobatics or any other purpose, you should be properly trained in it's use, parachute emergencies, free fall, landings, etc.

[broadreach]

Thanks, Chuck

It was precisely what you describe that prompted me to ask the question. The Cessna floatplane wheels down flipover was a pretty good demonstration! But I was thinking of a fixed-gear 150 vs a wheels-up ditching in a twin or even a single. Leaving aside the sea state, the faster you're going with those wheels sticking down, the more violent the flip's going to be. Wheels up, at least you have a fuselage to bounce along on until you dig the nose or a wing in.

Congonhas, yes, and isn't it reassuring to have all that smooth, building-free farmland around? :rolleyes: I think the PBY's at the TAM museum at Sao Carlos (?). I wonder how it and the other aircraft are getting on after Rolim's sudden departure.

[Chuck Ellsworth]

Congonhas, yes, and isn't it reassuring to have all that smooth, building-free farmland around?


I preferred taking off IFR in the PBY, then I couldn't see all those buildings for miles and miles. :E

[Greek God]

http://myaviation.net/?pid=00646148

You could always try this technique!!!

[AMEandPPL]

Bl**dy h*ll, that looks dangerous ! !

If it just dropped by 6 inches or so, surely it would end up nosing over ?

[bonniejack]

if you think that is dangerous you may like to know that the spray in the background is from the rest of the formation. Video on youtube somewhere but pretty spectacular and as you say something to heighten the senses.
just found it YouTube - The Runway is Wet - Precision low level flying (http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=i_fdjO9DHzo) or search for runway is wet.

[Pilot DAR]

In addition to extremely skillful piloting, an important element of this being possible is the brakes being held, so as to cause the wheels to hydroplane. Not that it would not go further in if allowed to, but it will sit with some stability that way. It also requires a taildragger. You just cannot make a nosewheel plane hydroplane on the mains, without the nosewheel being in the water already (no brake).

I have somewhat accidentally done this a few times taking off from a water covered frozen lake in the spring in the 185. Nowhere near the grace demonstrated by these guys though!

Pilot DAR

[hum]

One of the best aviation survival sites I have come across on the web is here:

EQUIPPED TO SURVIVE (tm) - Ditching an Aircraft (http://www.equipped.com/ditchtoc.htm)

Lots of good info & 1st hand accounts of ditching light aircraft... :ok:

[davedek]

Just a quick question to anybody who knows for sure -

Was just thinking about Ethiopian 961, the 767 that ditched into the water after it was hijacked and ran out of fuel. I've heard that many of the passengers died because they inflated their life-jackets BEFORE leaving the aircraft, and could not swim out of the fuselage.

I presume then, that all airline life-jackets, used in large commercial jets, are NOT self-inflating (i.e. they will ONLY inflate if you pull the cord, water contact will not automatically inflate them). It's probably a very obvious thing, but is anybody able to confirm this?

[hoodie]

That's correct.

You'll also recall that the safety videos make the point that you are not to inflate the lifejackets until outside the aircraft.

[RatherBeFlying]

I was driving along Lake Superior of a windy gusty day and came to a bay where a loon (high wing loading) was attempting to land in very confused waves.

It went end over end upon contacting the water:ouch:

If you are flying overwater, find out the sea state and temperature and ask yourself if you are ready to ditch in that.

The AF types do have single person life rafts that seem to offer better odds of being available after exiting.

Have a PLB in your pocket.

On a brighter note, a Grumman Tiger or Cheetah went down in the Denmark Strait and floated for a number of days:ok:

On a sadder note, a Cessna Centurion went down in the same strait in a heavy sea state and the occupants were never found:(

[BackPacker]

I presume then, that all airline life-jackets, used in large commercial jets, are NOT self-inflating (i.e. they will ONLY inflate if you pull the cord, water contact will not automatically inflate them). It's probably a very obvious thing, but is anybody able to confirm this?

I bought a durable (non-airline type) lifejacket for use in small aircraft from one of the pilot shops. It's mechanism does NOT contain a salt tablet so it needs the toggle to inflate.

I later spoke to a colleague who did some sailing on the North Sea and he told me that if you take a nautical lifejacket and simply remove the salt tablet, that it works identical to an aeronautical lifejacket: only pulling the toggle will inflate it.

Aviation stuff is generally even more expensive than nautical stuff. Could have saved me a few bucks there, and have a lifejacket both for nautical and aeronautical purposes.

Note that I have never studied the inflation mechanism of a nautical lifejacket. My colleague might be completely wrong.

You'll also recall that the safety videos make the point that you are not to inflate the lifejackets until outside the aircraft.

In case of panic, we all have the tendency to follow the herd. So if everybody's queuing to get out and one person, through sheer ignorance, decides to inflate his/her jacket inside the plane, within a matter of seconds everybody will have done so. In fact, you might find yourself surrounded by a few "helpers" who want to inflate your jacket for you.

[aceflyer-jerz]

I've only just picked up on this thread, and not had time to read it all in detail.
However I thought you lot might like to relate to my actual experience of ditching, sort of.
Back in June this year I was the guy who managed to arrive in the middle of a fishing lake following a forced landing gone wrong in my P28R.
Having crashed through the bushes and trees at over 100kts I impacted the water (Gear up) fortunately at a relatively flat attitude, Port wing ripped off and my starboard one also missing a couple of feet as I went through the shrubbery. By the way my final manoeuvre ended up with the aircraft rotating 180 as I impacted the water.
So far so good, nothing was hurting. As I sat there watching the water start to fill at an approximate rate of an inch per second, already at my waist level. I'd forgotten to crack open the door in my descent. I now tried to open the door, it wouldn't budge, this is where I became really frightened, “survived the crash but then drowned!” Panic!
I found some inner strength and managed somehow to slowly open the door. The water was less than a foot up the door but the pressure differential was so great. Fortunately for me I was able to get out onto the wing before the aircraft sank to within 6 or so inches from submerging the cockpit. It is just amazing how much force there is with the water pressure differential.
I'm glad I didn’t wait until the aircraft was submerged before trying to open the door otherwise I would have drowned I’m sure. A subsequent visit to the AAIB, the door was checked and would open and close easily, so there hadn't been any distortion caused to jam the door, as I first imagined.
If I’d had the gear (ONLY 2) down when I hit the water, I’m sure I would have ended up in the water inverted and this story would have had a more sombre conclusion.
My advice in this situation is do not wait until it submerges, just get that door open as soon as you can, preferably whilst still airborne, (I forgot as I was somewhat preoccupied) and TRY and keep calm.
Both impacts with the shrubbery and water were quite severe. Wearing my seatbelt tight definitely contributed to me not hitting my head etc into the controls and avionics. I've made mention to my incident on the Flyer forum how I notice that a lot of pilots neglect to wear their diagonal harnesses.
When your going in, your mind will be too preoccupied with everything else, there won't be time to even think of fumbling to pull out your still neatly folded diagonal. It may well just save you. It worked for me.

[Droopystop]

Those of you who travel over water without a survival suit might like to read the following document......www.hse.gov.uk/research/otopdf/1995/oto95038.pdf.

It relates to the offshore industry, but the really interesting bit is table 5 towards the end.

[tuscan]

Survival suits are as good as the layers of insulation you have under them.When working offshore I always had several layers on, even if it meant sweating buckets in the helicopter and feeling uncomfortable in summer.

I sell lifejackets, both commercial and recreational. Many automatic jackets used for sailing etc can be fitted with a simple device that turns it to manual for flying. It takes seconds and is only a few quid. Ideal if you need your jacket for both.
Generally the manual jackets are cheaper but if you want to go all out for safety you can go for twin cylinders with light and sprayhood.

A good idea when ditching in cold water is a possibility is to have an external bladder with a breathing tube which allows you to take a breath from the bladder rather than a lung full of water during the cold shock stage on immersion. A nose clip is usually part of this product.
They are great for reducing the panic when attemping to exit a submerged craft.

[b.a. Baracus]

Yes the Emergency Breathing System (EBS), any oil rig workers out there will know what I am talking about (Pop, Suck, Blow) probably gives you just under a minute of recycled air.... Whether you remember to do it in the heat of the moment is another question. Offshore heli pilots don't benefit from this equipment as it is too bulky strapped to their chest.

[SNS3Guppy]

A good idea when ditching in cold water is a possibility is to have an external bladder with a breathing tube which allows you to take a breath from the bladder rather than a lung full of water during the cold shock stage on immersion. A nose clip is usually part of this product.
They are great for reducing the panic when attemping to exit a submerged craft.


The problem is that if you're inside a surmerged and sinking aircraft, you don't want anything boyant attached to your person...the reason that life vests aren't inflated until you're outside the aircraft and clear of sinking debris. The vest, and any other boyancy, and trap you. and prevent your exit.

[tuscan]

guppy,

the EBS should not be confused with either a lifejacket or bouyancy aid, it is niether. It is a bladder that you inflate with your exhaled breath,it then scrubs and and recycles that breath for a limited period and does not impede your exit. It was designed for aircraft escape and is a great bit of kit. I have been trained over 20 years in underwater escape and when I first used one of these I noticed a significant difference in my attitude. Obviously the panic factor is removed (not for those with claustrophobia) and your first breath is air not water.

I have also used similar systems for escape from confined spaces (down inside oil platform legs) when they have been filled with gas and the only real problem I found was that the air become warmer and dried your throat. This lead to panic from some people but realistically when using this to exit an aircraft you will only use it for a matter of seconds and it will not be so bad.
Just to get you through the cold shock and long enough to get out the door.

[SNS3Guppy]

It's a rebreather system, then?

[Fuji Abound]

No, nothing at all like a rebreather, which is a far more complex piece of kit.

Essentially it is a mini SCUBA system.

[Droopystop]

Fuji,

I think you are confusing the EBS with STASS (short term air supply). EBS is a simple rebreather device which will give enough time to egress and get to the surface. All NS passengers have EBS now. See Shark Survival Home Page - Air Pocket (http://www.sharkgroup.co.uk/survival_airpocket.html). STASS is the mini scuba system as you put it and is a variation on diver's spare air system. STASS requires more training and runs the risk of baro trauma.

[Fuji Abound]

There does seem to be some confusion as to which systems come under this description.

See here for a useful study:

http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/33/CAPAP2003_13.PDF

[Vee1Kut]

Yeah, but Guppy, I thought if you always had V1, the plane always flies..so a water landing in your world is not possible...just pitch the plane to V1, and everything will be ok.

[b.a. Baracus]

The EBS is definitely a useful bit of kit. It makes the whole experience a lot more pleasant and does not hinder your escape. The key is to hold onto a window (exit) when you know you’re going to flip and sink, if you don’t you become totally disorientated :confused:.