Intereuropean light aircraft ferry flight

[scanavos]

Hi!
What is the most preferred route to fly a Cessna 172 from Gatwick to Brindisi?

[500 above]

Hi

Just a quick point...

Check Avgas availability in Brindisi. Last time I was there in a piston engined aircraft they said that it would be available but was not.

As far as the route goes, from Gatwick? Do you mean Redhill or somewhere?

Without the relevant (VFR I assume?) charts in front of me, off the top of my head you could try Redhill to Calais, (cheaper landing/fuel than some others) Calais to somewhere in the South of France (can be expensive even for a tech stop) such as Cannes/LFMD, Cannes to Brindisi is achievable with LR fuel, but stay in your comfort zone! There are many smaller GA fields in Italy en route. Check Avgas!!!!!!!

Try UVAir in Brindisi/LIBR for fuel availability on 390270200406.

In the end, it depends on your experience as a pilot. Why not take a friend along that has some European flight experience?

Just watch the weather near the hills/mountains, stay away from the higher ground if you are unhappy.

Hope this helps, been a while since I did some single engined ferrying so I stand to be corrected.

Enjoy the trip.

[S-Works]

PM me if you want some assistance. I do this all the time. It is an easy trip, although you are very unlikely to be deparing from Gatwick!!

[scanavos]

7 days left to take the plane and I still need more info...

[IO540]

Scanavos, if you post one-line questions you are not going to get useful answers!

On any forum, you have to put some effort into writing the question, if you want to get anything useful out of it.

Are you going VFR or IFR?

If VFR, it is a case of obtaining the VFR charts, laying them out all over the floor and drawing lines on them. Jeppesen sell 1:500k VFR charts, all the way down to Italy.

If IFR, then you need to work out a valid Eurocontrol route, e.g. this FL100 one
EGKK DVR L9 KONAN L607 ULMEN DCT NASBO Q762 FRANK Z12 RINEX W718 DKB G5 AKANU L603 TEGBA L605 GAMLI L725 SNU M138 PUBEG M725 ZAG L187 DBK A48 BRD DCT LIBR
but at 1175nm you won't be flying this in a C172 :) unless you have a ferry tank. The aforementioned route was worked out in a few seconds using this (http://www.autoplan.aero) tool.

[hoodie]

I wait for more answers 7 days left to take the plane and I still need more info...

Ooh, with an attitude like that, this thread could start getting interesting... http://www.improvresourcecenter.com/mb/images/smilies/popcorn.gif

[Roy Bouchier]

Without wishing to be unkind, if you have to ask for this information, should you be making the trip in the first place?

[IO540]

He is Canadian, so this sort of question is reasonable because the airspace over there is very different to ours. Europe's airspace is a complete mess and totally baffles pilots from the American side of things. IFR is a lot easier (much less different around the world than VFR) but they still get shafted by things like Eurocontrol routings, and total nonsense like PPR. I've bumped into lots of American pilots (mostly bizjet ones) around airports I've been to and they all have fun with this gold plated European crap... in the USA if you want to fly somewhere, you get the weather, file the flight plan (getting the notam etc briefing all in one go) and FLY.

I vaguely recall filing Brindisi as an alternate once (been past it quite a few times on the way down to Corfu LGKR and it is the last airport on the way down there) and it didn't have avgas back then.

Right now, the current Jeppesen Flitestar data shows no avgas, but the 2007/08 ACUKWIK airport directory shows it having both avgas and jet (and PPR is needed). But, never ever ever fly to any Italian airport unless you have made a positive contact with their authority and checked all this stuff. An Italian speaker may be needed for this. It could easily have avgas but not sell it to non aeroclub members (unless you bribe somebody) and I got caught this way at Treviso last year. The airport website is here (http://www.seap-puglia.it/index.asp).

[Mickey Kaye]

" in the USA if you want to fly somewhere, you get the weather, file the flight plan (getting the notam etc briefing all in one go) and FLY."

Totally agree - why can't it be like that in europe

[Fright Level]

I got caught in Italy when we wanted to fuel up on arrival for an early morning departure. They wouldn't sell us duty free fuel unless we had a flight plan for the next hour or so (next day's didn't count), so we went to the tower, filed a flight plan, filled with fuel, then called on the radio and cancelled the plan.

Italy is still full of such bureaucratic nonsense.

Last time I flew to Corfu (over Brindisi) VFR, I routed Dover, Calais, north of Paris, refuel in Troyes, south to Lyon/Marseille avoiding very high ground, follow coast round to Cannes for fuel then across the Med to Bastia & Elba. Italian ATC only allowed a low level VFR route past Rome some miles off the coast so had to relay positions, then into Naples for fuel. Next hop over the southern end of the Apennines towards Brindisi.

[IO540]

I guess a C172 will need at least two fuel stops on this one.

Assuming the pilot has no oxygen (pretty likely) I would go to Austria, fill up there, and cross the Alps over that way, and continue down the coast of Yugoslavia (Pula, Split etc). Avgas is OK all the way down there. Fill up at say Pula or Split.

With a higher ceiling (a C172 might go to FL140 perhaps?) I would do Friedrichshafen EDNY, then straight over the Alps to Ljubljana LJLJ, then Dubrovnik LDDU.

Best to forget Switzerland if VFR because they don't let you into their FL130+ Class C and that keeps you very close to the mountains - I did that once and you get great photos but it is very weather sensitive.

Forget Italy altogether. Italy is OK if you speak good Italian; you phone up the airport and "arrange things".

But TBH we have no idea of what this man is capable of.

[Roy Bouchier]

My apologies - I missed the fact that he was Canadian. Yes, help is needed.. I once spent a year flying in the UK and Europe with our American crews and there was a lot of hand holding needed for professionals!

[stillin1]

scanavos

From your posts it really does sound like you need to spend time in face-to-face consideration of this flight with someone who knows what they are doing. We are not likely to do the work for you and if you can't do it yourself you should not be planning(sorry for the pun) to fly the trip. As IO540 said - you need to be far more specific with the questions sport. This forum is great for advice but you sound like you are taking the p**s. It may be worth taking someone familiar with the airspace usage along for the ride.

[Roy Bouchier]

Perhaps if he were to post his proposed routing, somebody here would be able to help.

[LH2]

Best to forget Switzerland if VFR because they don't let you into their FL130+ Class C

Doesn't Switzerland use the S-surface principle, as in France? What that means, essentially, is that the first 3000ft AGL are uncontrolled.

and that keeps you very close to the mountains

And so??? The closer the better :E (nah, seriously, don't go there unless you know exactly what you're doing)

Forget Italy altogether

That's probably a bit too harsh, although I do agree with the rest of your comment, and just for good measure it's always preferable to have a rock-solid plan B. But IMHO, with enough patience and a sense of humour Italy is perfectly manageable for a foreigner.

But TBH we have no idea of what this man is capable of.

Well, I just hope we don't get to find out. :}

[IO540]

LH2

The particular airspace, e.g. south of LSPV, just says 13000-FL195 or similar. Under e.g. Y170 this places you < 1300ft above the peaks. I've done it and it's great for picture but better make sure there is no wind :)

However, it's an interesting Q as to what e.g. "FL130 or 3000ft AGL" actually means. I have never found an answer to how closely one is supposed to be tracking the surface. Is there some ICAO rule? I think that in practice, one could just fly 3000ft above any peak within many miles of that peak and ATC would be unable to complain since they are not likely to have any means of checking anything other than against a large scale surface like their MVA.

[gyrotyro]

Scanavos

It surprises me sometimes how some people get to hold a PPL.

Do they not teach how to read a map and draw a route these days ?

This isn't rocket science just basis PPL stuff. To hold a PPL you must have demonstrated these skills at some stage, just get on with it.

Sorry if I appear unhelpful but sometimes I feel that all some of these questions need is the literary equivalent of a good kick up the backside.

[IO540]

The OP is in Canada but

It surprises me sometimes how some people get to hold a PPL.

Do they not teach how to read a map and draw a route these days ?

is certainly not taught in the UK :) Well, not to the extent required to do long trips like this. There is much operational detail which is never taught. The vast majority of PPLs never go anywhere which is how the system hangs together without being questioned, and the rest probably pick it up from mates, and pilot forums :)

[LH2]

what e.g. "FL130 or 3000ft AGL" actually means.

It depends. In the UK, it would probably mean a couple trees' worth of regulations attempting to clarify the issue with little success.

In France it means, be sensible, use your common sense, and don't screw up. If you end up busting the Geneva TMA it won't cut it if you try to argue that at F150 you were only 1000ft above Mt. Blanc only a few miles to the South :}

is certainly not taught in the UK Well, not to the extent required to do long trips like this.

Been discussed before, and I fully agree. Actually, if there was only one thing we could change from how the PPL is taught today, this would probably be my first choice.

the rest probably pick it up from mates, and pilot forums

I actually picked it up from my PPL instructor, but he's one of a kind. :)

[scanavos]

My question was: What is the most preferred VFR route from Redhill to Brindisi?
18 licenced pilots answered my post.
Nobody answered my question.
I will be waiting to see a post answering my question, to my simplest question in aviation world: How to fly VFR on a C172 from Redhill to Brindisi?

[scanavos]

Thanks for the up to now.
Is there more info available?
The trip will be done mid November. The delay is due to papers...
Post me [email protected]

[IO540]

My question was: What is the most preferred VFR route from Redhill to Brindisi?
18 licenced pilots answered my post.
Nobody answered my question.
I will be waiting to see a post answering my question, to my simplest question in aviation world: How to fly VFR on a C172 from Redhill to Brindisi?

THERE IS NO "PREFERRED ROUTE".

This is Europe.

You get the VFR charts, and draw a line on them, then fly it :ugh:

Do you have a pilot's license?

[BackPacker]

How to fly VFR on a C172 from Redhill to Brindisi?

1. Turn on GPS.
2. Put in ICAO code of Brindisi and hit the "Direct To" button.
3. Start engine.
4. Rotate as soon as the needle is well into the white arc (or green arc for a flapless TO)
5. Follow magenta line
6. If GPS starts displaying message "airspace ahead" start talking, or go around.
7. Land at the end of the magenta line
8. Stop engine.

Seriously though:
- What license, ratings, endorsements do you hold?
- How much experience do you have with flying VFR in Europe?
- Will you be flying high and talking to ATC for clearances all the way, or do you prefer to fly low underneath the CTAs, TMAs and going around CTRs.
- Do you speak any foreign languages like German, French or Italian? Do you have a preference?
- What is the endurance on your aircraft? It's operating ceiling?
- What is the endurance of your bladder?
- Do you have oxygen on board and are you familiar with using oxygen?
- Is this a "fast as you can" ferry trip, or a vacation?
- How do you intend to cross the alps? High above them, through the valleys or go around them?
- What's the navigation equipment in your C172 like? Basic, full glass panel or something in between?
- Do you have a mode S transponder?
- Do you have an ELT?
- Is the aircraft IFR capable, do you hold an IR?
- What's the weather going to be like? Any fronts passing through?

We are not 1-800-WX-BRIEF here at PPRuNe. We don't have all the answers, nor the obligation to give them. We don't make decisions for you either. However, in this particular case, with the information you've given us so far, and the attitude you have, let me say this:

"VFR not recommended"

(IFR neither, for that matter.)

[S-Works]

18 pilots answered my post.
My question was: What is the most preferred VFR route from Redhill to Brindisi?
18 licenced pilots answered my post.
Nobody answered my question.
I will be waiting to see a post answering my question, to my simplest question in aviation world: How to fly VFR on a C172 from Redhill to Brindisi

That is not true, I gave you a routing in brief publicly and more depth privately. I gave you advice from having done that route. Others have done the same.

We are not a flight planning service, you still need to get the maps and flight guides out and do your own planning based on the advice that you were given. Both myself and IO have told you to check on fuel, Brindisi has had it when I have been there, but you need to call and check. The other stops I gave you I know for a fact they have Avgas, I stop at them a lot for that very reason.

There is no 'preferred' route, ask 10 people and they will give you 10 different answers. Choosing and flying a route down there is a blend of experience and careful flight planning.

I even offered to do the flight with you as you lack the experience of European flying to do this in my opinion.

The route I gave you will work in a 172. I own a 172 and have done that trip on a quite a few occasions including going to Brindisi. You are about to tackle some of the most complex airspace in the world. You need to do some proper planning of your own or risk having the book thrown at you by some very unfriendly European Bureaucrats.

I think you have done rather well on the advice front.

[scooter boy]

Scavanos, are you a 10 years old flight sim "pilot"?
I think this trip will be a big learning experience for you.
Clearly you have little idea about flight planning in Europe.
Best of luck doing that journey VFR at this time of year in a 172.

Perhaps it is your poor command of English but you sound like a spoilt brat.
Do you take issue with ATC if they don't immediately give you the routing you want?

Grow up.

SB

[vanHorck]

Sounds like Scavanos is undercover for Alitalia ferrying their new plane over. Same kind of attitude. :eek:

[LH2]

Give the guy a break, gents.

I tell you what, I'll be available in mid November. Tell me where the plane is and where you want it and I'll ferry it for you. For expenses only, and you can come along if you want.

[S-Works]

Give the guy a break, gents.

I tell you what, I'll be available in mid November. Tell me where the plane is and where you want it and I'll ferry it for you. For expenses only, and you can come along if you want.

I already made the offer. He wants to do it himself with the owner. He is the ferry pilot.....

[sycamore]

Scanavos,you were asked several pertinent questions with regard to licences held,a/c registration,etc on the `Biz-jet` forum; so far you have failed to give any answers to those and other `questions`; why is it so difficult ?

[172driver]

Sounds like Scavanos is undercover for Alitalia ferrying their new plane over.

:D:D:D:D:D:D

[BackPacker]

He wants to do it himself with the owner. He is the ferry pilot.....

Does the owner know he's dealing with a rather inexperienced ferry pilot, as far as flying VFR though Europe is concerned?

I would not want to be the owner...

[LH2]

He is the ferry pilot.....

Well, that's fine. He can tell the owner I'm his cousin and tagging along for the sights. I can fly from either seat so not a real problem.

And you can come along as well if you want, the more the merrier and he probably needs all the help he can muster anyway :}

[IO540]

Any bets on Scavanos being one of the regulars here, in disguise?

It's been done before, I am certain :)

[2close]

I've just done a ferry to Crete via Cannes, Brindisi and Corfu.

Brindisi DOES NOT HAVE AVGAS any longer. This they claim has been NOTAMed but it did not show up on my search - I double-checked all 36 pages to make sure.

They will also not let you stay there overnight unless you have prior permission, probably in quadruplicate in virgin's blood.

I'm not sure if or where you're going after Brindisi but the nearest airport on the mainland for Avgas in that neck of the woods is Bari, 65(ish) miles up the coast. After that, you have Dubrovnik over the water, not a recommended course of action if you're running on fumes.

Obviously, the weather on the day dictates your actions to a certain degree but you may want to think twice about going over the French high ground in a C-172 in mid-November. We had an IFR equipped, fully de-iced twin and we chose to head the long way around due south over the lower ground to the coast then left to Cannes rather than go over the rocks in probable IMC well above the freezing level.

Also, avoid Rome and Naples like the plague - if you are VFR they will probably send you off your flight plan around the houses. We had filed VFR at FL75 from LFMD DCT BTA DCT OST DCT POM DCT LIBR and Rome still (quite unexpectedly) dropped us down to 2,000' and sent us down the VFR Routes between the peaks, although routing around Capri and the Amalfi coastline to Salerno was quite picturesque which was the only alternative on offer from Naples apart from flying around in circles for 30 minutes. The detour around the Rome VFR Routes, etc. added a good 1 hour + to our time and took two of us to fly the aircraft and navigate an unfamiliar route between the hills.

For that leg, in hindsight, we would probably have been better off going from Cannes over Corsica and Sardinia down to Sicily, fuelling up in Palermo or Catania (?Avgas) then turning left over to the heel of Italy and on to Corfu (well recommended as an overnighter!).

Of course, your routes are governed in one respect by your endurance.

Language was not a problem at any stage although I'd give the Italians the top marks for pronunciation.

Remember PPPPPPP.:ok:

HTH

2close

[Fuji Abound]

It's been done before, I am certain

You dont think he is a mate of a certain French ATC, do you?

[IO540]

No, she was real. She just sounded like she wasn't :)

This one does show a Canadian Yahoo email address so perhaps he is real too, but IMHO he doesn't have even a PPL. Mind you, anybody could get onto yahoo.ca and set up a mailbox. That's what I would do if I was doing a prank here. The pprune mods can see the email address which is necessary to create an account here. Whether they do an IP to country lookup, I don't know.

[Fuji Abound]

No, she was real. She just sounded like she wasn't

You sure, a little frog told me she wasnt. ;)

[Fright Level]

Save your breath, his planned departure date has been and gone. Nothing on the news about an iced up 172 in the Alps?

[BackPacker]

Nothing on the news about an iced up 172 in the Alps?

Nothing yet. But since nobody has mentioned the words "Flight Plan" we can only assume our Canadian friend would not have submitted one (even though it's a requirement for international flight) so it would be a few days before the aircraft would be reported missing...:E

[AfricanEagle]

Regarding crossing Italy, Cannes LFMD - Siena LIQS - Pescara LIBP - Brindisi LIBR.

Siena and Pescara have fuel, but always phone the day before to double check availability.

If desperate pm me and I'll provide contact names of local based ppls that can help out.

[IO540]

always phone the day before to double check availability

In Italian.

[LH2]

it would be a few days before the aircraft would be reported missing..

By whom? The owner, who would have been on board? :E

[BackPacker]

Maybe the pilot expects the PPRuNe community to raise the alert if he doesn't post here within the next few days?

[IO540]

Well, that would be a more reliable way to raise the alarm than getting a relative to do it :)

[BossEyed]

Bit of a b*gger that he didn't tell us what route he was taking, though, isn't it. :hmm: :}

[IO540]

Well, we have 47 posts so far, and the whole thing could have been a windup! :)

[LH2]

the whole thing could have been a windup!

And so what? Some great comments out there anyway :)


btw, wasn't the same thread posted in the GA & Biz Jets at one point?

[sycamore]

He does say in post22 it`s delayed to mid-Nov `due papers` !! Anyone know a 172 at Redhill going to Italy ?

[BackPacker]

Bit of a b*gger that he didn't tell us what route he was taking, though, isn't it.

We can always tell the authorities that he took the "preferred route":E