A suggestion for the private pilot forum: [Archive]

Pilot DAR

21st Sep 2008, 21:33

Chuck has an excellent idea. Perhaps a challenge to take from the idea stage to the action stage, but I'm all behind it, and would help if asked....

Perhaps with the acceptance of the PPRuNe "panel of experts" the "regulars" here could nominate candidates, who would then offer substantiation for such an accreditation, and be so granted with the acceptance of the rest.

In my opinion, it would offer a valuable reassurance for the "new asker" that the answer was worthy, and thus actually useful.

Pilot DAR

Say again s l o w l y

21st Sep 2008, 22:15

A difficult one to police. I doubt BRL would have any time or wish to start checking logbooks etc.

I quite like the self policing method we've had here from the beginning. You do occasionally get fun and games like we've had here for the past few days, but these things have a way of sorting themselves out as I think this one is about to.

I've learnt a fair bit from posts from inexperienced people as well as learning a huge amount from the more experienced emebers of the board.

So a good idea, but a hard one to implement and I'm not sure how much better it would be compared to the current self regulating free for all.

I tend to only pay attention to posts from certain people anyway. It's just something you learn after being on here for a while.

DavidHoul52

21st Sep 2008, 22:33

I was the inexperienced person behind this request!

It looks like sticking my neck out about an issue that I didn't really have an in-depth knowledge about what not a great idea!

In any case even though it didn't sound like it at the time I do appreciate the contribution by Chuck, Pilot DAR and others and will read through their posts again - SLOWLY this time!

What might be useful is a bit more biographical information on the left hand side about the user - i.e. so many hours, rating, books written, experience and so on.

Chuck Ellsworth

21st Sep 2008, 22:46

Deleted due to being unworkable.

eharding

21st Sep 2008, 23:19

Chuck,

As per Say Again Slowly's comment, I would doubt that increasing the moderator workload would be a good move.

From a technical point of view, the underlying forum software does seem to have a few features which mirror your proposal...

vBulletin Manual - User Reputation (http://www.vbulletin.com/docs/html/main/reputation)

...but I have seen forums where this has been added, and subsequently deleted; you can get some wierd kind of forum beauty contest dynamics being caused as a result.

From an orthogonal perspective, I have seen that the concept of a forum 'Sin Bin' can have some positive results. Forumites who, on the face of it, seem purely to have an antagonstic, aggressive or simply attention-seeking agenda are confined to a closed forum wherein they can only interact with a set of moderators. I have no idea of exactly what goes on in there, but either the reprobates emerge as chastened forum citizens, or they don't emerge at all.

For Pprune, I think the problem of accreditation is probably more acute in the mainstream Professional forums - given that they do seem to be the first port of call for journalists looking for copy, and often opinions expressed there can appear in the news media without any real verification of the credentials of the source. Minor perturbations in the calm waters of Private Flying such as we have seen recently are arguably small beer in comparison.

You can, however, count on my vote should the approach you suggest be taken up by the management.

:ok:

Ed.

Pilot DAR

21st Sep 2008, 23:29

Having considered the well thought out comments, how about this concept: A skicky post titled "ask the Mentors", the opening page of which would present to any and all readers who the nominated and accepted mentors are, and where their strengths lie in assiting those with questions. Where a good question (not to suggest that there are bad ones, you know what I mean...) is presented, it could be restarted as a new post by that mentor, and perhaps an answer offered, then that question will have the necessary open visibility, and take on the life of its own appropriate to the depth of the question. It can then start and finish in the normal scheme of posts, but with the knowledge that a "mentor" took some onwership for it, and it is entitled to credible and serious attention and comment...

Pilot DAR

niknak

22nd Sep 2008, 00:19

One of the great things about this forum is that you don't get a set opinion from "closed minds", which is exactly may occur if Chucks suggestion was implemented.
I know from extensive experience as someone who trains ATCOs and is a qualified examiner in ATC, that the worst thing that can happen when an important question is asked, is to just field it amongst the examiners and not those who deal with the subject every day of their working lives.

As well meant as Chuck may have been, it would be a sad and dangerous day if the Mod's ever restricted opinion to those whose higher flying qualifications make their opinions seem more worthy than those who are just basically qualified but fly as many hours if not more.

SkyHawk-N

22nd Sep 2008, 00:31

I thought that this was an internet forum? You know, the place where arguing, egos, heated discussions and opinions happen?

The problem is when there are more inflammatory and boring threads than interesting ones. If people posted more interesting threads the PPRuNe yin and yang would once again be in balance.

Chuck Ellsworth

22nd Sep 2008, 00:43

One of the great things about this forum is that you don't get a set opinion from "closed minds", which is exactly may occur if Chucks suggestion was implemented.

Sorry for having made a suggestion that on second thought was not workable.

I am going to delete my posts prior to this as I do not need this kind of crap in my life.

niknak

22nd Sep 2008, 01:07

blimey! Toys, and chucking out the cot come to mind!

Chuck Ellsworth

22nd Sep 2008, 01:27

Not really nitnak it is just easier for me to give people like you a clear board so the people who come here can embrace you fully and thus become better pilots.

So have at it hero, you give them advice on how to fly.

Pilot DAR

22nd Sep 2008, 01:47

As well meant as Chuck may have been, it would be a sad and dangerous day if the Mod's ever restricted opinion to those whose higher flying qualifications make their opinions seem more worthy than those who are just basically qualified but fly as many hours if not more.

Perhaps what Chuck has suggested was misunderstood. Taking the liberty to expand on the idea Chuck presented, there have been occasions where posters asking questions could have reason to be unsure of the background of a person who is offering a specific answer, and thus the real value of the answer they sought in the first place. If the information of at least certain posters, who contribucted regularly, were presented or available in advance, the person asking the question might choose to direct it, or at least consider an answer in a specific light, based on the origin of the answer. I'm confident that there was no suggestion of limiting the opportunity of anyone to respond at any point.

There are many magazines in which opportunities are presented for readers to ask the staff of the magazine questions on specific subjects. I see this as being a very similar situation, other than the vastly improved situation of likely getting many answers, instead of just one, and not having to wait a whole month! Add to that the opportunity to re-ask and clarify if need be!

None of what has been proposed would in any way limit the function or utility of the forum as is is now, it would just be an additional feature, which could serve to attract and reassure those who value the information content of an answer (as opposed to offhanded remarks of a more humorous nature - though we can have those too!), and would like to know a bit more about the answerer.

In the context of absolutely no loss of forum utility, and a means to offer better information in the way it has been sought by some posters, I whole heartedly stand behind Chuck's suggestion.

More open minds for the greater good, with respect to this worthwhile suggestion....?

Pilot DAR

BackPacker

22nd Sep 2008, 06:28

I occasionally hang out at Slashdot (Slashdot: News for nerds, stuff that matters (http://www.slashdot.org)), sort of PPRuNe for geeks. Slashdot is much, much bigger than PPRuNe and they've implemented a "mod points" system.

I don't know exactly how it works, but what it comes down to is that readers can modify a post "up" or "down", I think on a scale of 0 to 5. In the standard view of the forum, only the posts that rise above a certain (user-configurable) level are displayed in full, and others are displayed in an abbreviated format or not at all.

Of course if you want to there are buttons and other ways to display all posts.

In order to avoid everybody modding everybody up, I think that mod points work in a sort of trade mechanism: when you write an interesting article, this is modded up by others. This gives you mod points which allow you to mod a post up yourself.

Plus, posts of writers who regularly write good posts start out with more mod points than posts of windbags, or anonymous posters.

The beauty of the system is that it allows everybody to post, even the windbags. It's not a black and white banning system where you can post as equal, or not at all. And it can be coupled to a sort of 'reputation' system: the more mod power someone has, the more he or she is apparently appreciated by the community.

Whirlybird

22nd Sep 2008, 08:15

If the information of at least certain posters, who contributed regularly, were presented or available in advance, the person asking the question might choose to direct it, or at least consider an answer in a specific light, based on the origin of the answer.

Information about posters is available. Click on their name, then on their profile, and you can get it. But only if they've filled it in!!!!!

Chuck, my friend, your profile is a masterpiece of brevity. It tells us you have an ATPL, that you're a pilot, and come from Vancouver Island. Well, maybe the mere ownership of an ATPL ought to be enough to convince any low hours PPL of your great knowledge, but an awful lot of people pass the ATPL exams and don't know a lot, perhaps never even fly again!!!! OK, I KNOW you're not one of them!!!!!

May I respectfully suggest that people -and particularly high-houred, knowledgeable pilots on here - who object to not being taken seriously, fill in their profiles in as much detail as there is space for. :ok: And anyone who asks a question, and wonders if the responder knows what he/she is talking about....click on the profile.

Easy, innit? Now we can discuss what to do about people who make up qualifications and lie!!!! Maybe it's easier to go down the pub and ask the nearest chap at the bar instead. :)

Say again s l o w l y

22nd Sep 2008, 09:17

I don't think it's a bad idea at all, just difficult to work. I seem to remember Pprune having the User Reputation enabled in the past (it may have been another board though) and it caused all sorts of hissy fits and tantrums!

I have seen a board that used a "thanks" system. If people found a post interesting or useful, then they could click on it and the poster recieved a "thanks" next to their name. It helped sort the wheat from the chaff so to speak.

Though I have no idea if this board sotware offers that sort of thing.

It might be an idea and could help cut down them amount of rubbish that is posted all across Pprune, not just in Private flying. Rumours and News is just a total bunfight now, full of posts by people with the aviation knowedge of a bag of peanuts.

"I fly as a passenger once a year, but here's what I think caused this accident..........." Give me strength!

Cusco

22nd Sep 2008, 09:41

Once again I'm reminded why I visit this forum oh-so-rarely.............

Cusco

kevmusic

22nd Sep 2008, 11:01

I think it's a good idea and definitely worth a try on a 'suck it and see' basis. What about giving it say, 6 months and then reviewing it?

Some names:
Chuck, Beagle, Fuji, Justiciar (where's he these days?), Whirly and Whirls - just for starters. I could probably think of a few more in the next couple of days.

S-Works

22nd Sep 2008, 11:08

Complete and utter waste of time and will end up with those thinking they know better using the position to brow beat others as already happens now but with an official stick.

Then of course what happens to those who think they should be asked due to considerable experience and are vetoed by the self appointed experts because they will have no doubt crossed swords at some stage.

It is not broke and does not need fixing. If people find the forum to volatile then they can go elsewhere. I personally find Paul does a pretty good job at moderation.

And at the end of the day, this is a rumour network not a kindergarten for those who need hand holding. There is a perfectly good students forum here and on flyer.

niknak

22nd Sep 2008, 11:37

Chuck, you seem to have taken my comments as personal slight, which was not the intention at all.

Going the basis that you're never too old (or young) to learn, I just think that if you restrict the amount of information and ideas on these pages, many pilots (prospective, learning or qualified) will miss out on valuable tips and advice.
The other good thing about such open discussion is that the dafter ideas and attitudes which do appear here are usually constructively squashed by people who do know better.

Back to you fella...:ok::)

PompeyPaul

22nd Sep 2008, 11:40

If anything I would rather see, on the front of all web pages:

"THIS IS A RUMOUR SITE FOR DISCUSSION. PROCEDURES, IDEAS AND DISCUSSIONS SHOULD NOT BE USED FOR OPERATIONAL PURPOSES"

Yes I get that there are some very experienced pilots on here with 1000s of hours. The thing is though ASCII sucks as a means of communication. Those who spout their opinions most visciously tend to be the ones that are discussed and disected.

I worry that this site actually does more harm to newbies than good. If you are in any doubt what so ever than this site is NOT the place to get that doubt sorted out, you should ask an instructor.

I also know the "special ones" think some instructors suck, but if nothing else that instructor is there in front of you and gets a better idea from your body language etc as to your level, who you are, are you joking or serious ?

Nominating acredited "special ones" is as good as creating an AAIB report right now. No matter how "special" the "special one" is, if they are answering ASCII they're only getting 30% of the communication.

This site needs far more disclaimers than it does accreditation.

Really, really, really, bad and dangerous idea :=

Fuji Abound

22nd Sep 2008, 11:44

Kevmusic

Chuck, Beagle, Fuji, Justiciar (where's he these days?), Whirly and Whirls - just for starters. I could probably think of a few more in the next couple of days.

My goodness, I am flattered to bits to be mentioned in dispatches in such illustrious circles. Thank you, although I am not sure it is deserved! :O

vee-tail-1

22nd Sep 2008, 12:16

This forum works fine as it is.
We are all however reacting a bit like chickens with a fox in the hen house.
I think David is a troll.
But if he really is the aggressive arrogant antagonistic pratt with a ppl that he appears, then he is also an accident about to happen. :}

DavidHoul52

22nd Sep 2008, 12:28

Have now repented and am walking around in sackcloth and ashes. See my earlier posting on this thread. :{

PompeyPaul

22nd Sep 2008, 12:49

But if he really is the aggressive arrogant antagonistic pratt with a ppl that he appears, then he is also an accident about to happen
He didn't come across that way to me, where as everyone who piled in to give him a hard time did. Hate to admit it, that's the way it looked to me.

Flame suit on
http://cache.kotaku.com/assets/resources/2006/12/flame_suit.jpg

Rod1

22nd Sep 2008, 14:01

This forum works fine as it is. Experience is not necessarily a good thing. I have been flying since 1984 and passed my PPL in 91. If you ask me about the latest JAA PPL test I will have no clue. Some of the “experience” on this forum is very out of date.

David, the degree of “bashing” you are getting appears to me to be out of proportion to your original “crime”. It may be easier for you to slide off to the “other place” for a bit until the “gentleman” loose interest.

Rod1

DavidHoul52

22nd Sep 2008, 16:14

I am a changed man. I will soon be visiting you all on a flying mission of peace and goodwill.

http://i446.photobucket.com/albums/qq182/DavidHoul52/2178957844_e7e709f9be.jpg:ok:

Chuck Ellsworth

22nd Sep 2008, 16:23

I am truly glad that I deleted my suggestion regarding giving advice on this forum.

I had no idea that it would receive the response that it did.

I wish to thank those of you who believe that attempting to learn from a written source of information is not a workable mechanism, so lets throw all work books out of schools while we are at it.

Just one last question before I leave this thread I started.

Some time ago here on Pprune I posted a written description of how to judge height during the approach and landing phase of flight, was there even one person out there who derived some useful knowledge from my effort?

Fuji Abound

22nd Sep 2008, 16:46

Chuck

Yes, I did.

It was a fascinating read.

I agree with you, there are many very informative posts on this forum, which are instructive and reflect the experiences of the poster - often experiences that can only be gained from many 1,000 of hours of real world flying, rather than from many 1,000 of hours spent "bashing" students around the local cabbage patch.

The real problem is some people cant be bothered to read, and when they do they read what they want to read, not what was said. ;)

S-Works

22nd Sep 2008, 17:04

Some time ago here on Pprune I posted a written description of how to judge height during the approach and landing phase of flight, was there even one person out there who derived some useful knowledge from my effort?

Indeed, I find most of your posts, educating and informative drawing on considerable personal experience. Unfortunately you are also prone to slipping into personal attacks when things don't go your way (I speak from experience being on the receiving end...). Which is why I don't believe people holding themselves out as 'super users' would work.

This does not mean that I won't continue to read and be educated by your posts should you continue to share your experience.

Chuck Ellsworth

22nd Sep 2008, 17:11

Thanks Fuji Abound.

The real problem with these internet forums is it takes time to separate the various posters out and disregard the trolls and the mentally challenged from those who have something valuable to offer.

In the final analysis the forums work about as well as can be expected.

I personally have difficulty dealing with people who are outspoken to the point of being insulting knowing they are taking advantage of anonymity.

In my world when we offer our thoughts we are willing to do so openly because we are willing to be taken at face value and if wrong we are willing to learn from being wrong.

mcgoo

22nd Sep 2008, 17:13

Why not just have a locked sticky thread where articles of merit (like Chucks on landing) can be stored without all the posts and so making them easy to find and read?

Whirlybird

22nd Sep 2008, 17:23

I've been reading and writing on PPRune for years and years, far longer than most of the people who've posted here.

During that time I've learned a tremendous amount, and been helped by some wonderful people; I honestly doubt if I'd have got my CPL(H) and FI rating without them; in fact, I might even have given up flying. I've also run into some complete and utter idiots who shouldn't be allowed to post on a tiddlywinks website, let alone an aviation forum.

I've been put on a pedestal and told I'm wonderful, flamed thoroughly and been told I know nothing, treated like ****, or like I was some kind of goddess...and even just occasionally been treated like a normal human being who happens to fly helicopters and have a bit of a way with words.

I've been addicted to PPRuNe and posted so often that peple began to loathe the sight of my name, and sometimes hated it so much I've stayed away...but never for too long as I'm a bit of a PPRuNeaholic (only a bit, yeah, right, I hear them all say). And I've been busy - as I have been recently - so that I've missed what's been going on and I'm not quite sure what all of this is about.

The point I'm making is that you'll find all sorts on PPRuNe. You can find some useful and enjoyable stuff, and even make real and long-lasting friends. But you need to put on your armour before you come in, and never forget your sense of humour.

In fact, strange as it may seem....PPRuNe is just like the rest of the world, and the people who inhabit it are the same as the majority of the human race.

Final 3 Greens

22nd Sep 2008, 19:09

Final 3 Greens

22nd Sep 2008, 19:16

I am a changed man. I will soon be visiting you all on a flying mission of peace and goodwill.

Well, you will be a changed man if you try to fly one of those with your professed techniques :}

Seriously, I hope that you do read the landings thread again and take away someting of value, we may shout sometimes, but generally it is out of concern more than anything else.

For the avoidance of doubt, posted by a very average low hours PPL whose motivation is to stop others scaring themselves as much as he has done in the past.

SkyHawk-N

22nd Sep 2008, 19:27

we may shout sometimes, but generally it is out of concern more than anything else.

No it's not :E

Pilot DAR

23rd Sep 2008, 02:24

I've read all of the posts, and do realize that my original thoughts on this subject were not the result of broad enough thinking. Others here obvioulsy have valuable experience with challenges such as these. I thus defer to their collective wisdom.

I did like the idea of tallying thank you's. It seems simple, voluntary, and just plain polite! It reminds me of the feedback on eBay - well though out, and effective.

I'll follow the crowd on this one...

Pilot DAR

BackPacker

23rd Sep 2008, 06:05

Why not just have a locked sticky thread where articles of merit (like Chucks on landing) can be stored without all the posts and so making them easy to find and read?

From personal experience, if you have something that may be really useful for the crowd here and you take your time writing it up decently, the mods have no problem with making it a sticky.

Result is that we do have something like five sticky threads up, which is doable, but we should not have many more otherwise there's no space for non-sticky threads on the page.

Why not do away with all the sticky threads, replace them with ONE sticky thread "The Best of PPRuNe Private Flying" and for each of the interesting threads that would otherwise have been made a sticky, add one post with a short description and a link. Perhaps the post could even include a summary.

It requires a bit of moderation and some discipline so that people don't fill that "Best of" thread with nonsense posts, but I've got the feeling that people are already careful in posting in sticky threads today so that shouldn't be too much of a problem.

Occasionally the subject of a FAQ list comes up as well. We might be able to use this instead: for each frequently asked question ("when does my license expire" for instance) simply point to the relevant thread.

mark sicknote

23rd Sep 2008, 06:16

Stick with us Chuck. I find you posts both interesting and informative.

Best,

Sicknote:ok:

bjornhall

23rd Sep 2008, 16:27

Occasionally the subject of a FAQ list comes up as well. We might be able to use this instead: for each frequently asked question ("when does my license expire" for instance) simply point to the relevant thread.

There's a downside to that as well. Usually, people post a question here in order to have a discussion on the answer, or the question, or anything else that pops up in relation to it... That point is pretty much lost when all you get for your effort is a link back to some other time when some others got to discuss the same issue... In the example given, if a one-way-communication answer was sought, surely one would visit the relevant CAA web page instead?

As someone wisely said, the forum ain't broken...

BackPacker

25th Sep 2008, 07:49

There's a downside to that as well. Usually, people post a question here in order to have a discussion on the answer, or the question, or anything else that pops up in relation to it... That point is pretty much lost when all you get for your effort is a link back to some other time when some others got to discuss the same issue... In the example given, if a one-way-communication answer was sought, surely one would visit the relevant CAA web page instead?

If people want to initiate a discussion on something (they think) that's never been discussed before, there's nothing that's been suggested here that inhibits that. If they want to resurrect an old thread because they think something that needs to be said hasn't been said in that thread, fine by me.

My suggestion was more for stuff that comes up every now and then, and when the subject comes up, everybody sighs and says something along the lines of "read your air law book", "ask the CAA", "read LASORS", "use the search function" and so forth.

My personal experience was with the recurring question on how to do a JAA PPL in the US. Since I wrote the article about it and asked BRL to make it a sticky, questions on that subject have almost completely disappeared, and whatever discussion is held (like whether the M-1 is required or not) is now neatly confined in that one thread.

If we can come up with a sort of index (which I optimistically called "The Best of PPRuNe Private Flying") to threads like that, it reduces the number of stickies required and makes that sort of information easier to find.

Personally, I'm thinking about a few categories:

- Flying training locations (including foreign)
- License, medical, expiry, renewals
- Aerodynamics, flight maneuvers, flying technique including landing
- "I Learned About Flying From That" type articles
- Flying in/through ... (add location here) - linking to threads with tips on nice fields, clubs, restaurants, airspace
- Airplane advanced equipment (glass cockpits, GPS, oxygen)
- Current "hot" regulations (EASA FCL, mode-S, ICAO language proficiency)
- Flight planning, including weather, notams, plogs and other tools

Each category would be a separate article in the thread, with each article linking to one or more other threads.

As someone wisely said, the forum ain't broken...

True, but you have to admit that the search function is pretty rubbish. In a world full of three-letter acronyms and abbreviations, it's a bit dumb to require that each search key is four letters or more, isn't it...?