IMC renewal on G1000

[dont overfil]

Is there anyone out there does IMC renewals on Glass cockpits?
How do you handle the requirement for recovery on partial panel and position fixes? There's probably other things which may be a problem that I've not thought of.
DO.

[VeriLocation]

I did my renewal last month and we had to use lots of post it notes to cover up the glass display for the partial failure. Not ideal but better than closing down the system, did leave sticky marks on screen though.

[dont overfil]

VL,
Thanks for that. In the real world how pointless all that is if that's the a/c the pilot always flys. I'm sure that's not how the system will fail.
I'll bet that's what you said as well!
Time for an update?
DO.

[Shunter]

Time for an update?Tell you what, when we can fly GPS non-precision approaches into uncontrolled fields in the UK, start your clock with a 10yr countdown and you might be on the money for glass cockpit instrument tests. Backward and anal? Absolutely. Cynical? Oh hell yes. Correct? Probably....

[IanSeager]

Shunter, there are plenty of initial IR tests done on glass cockpit aeroplanes in the UK. There would probably be even more if it wasn't for the Thielert issues with the DA42 fleet.

Ian

[Steve N]

I've seen a large piece of cardboard used to blank off the screen held in place with two rubber bands. The G1000 has four convenient placed knobs suitable for stretching the rubber bands.

Steve

[moonym20]

I know of some chaps who simply pull the CB's for the various systems they wish to fail on G1000

I happen to know AHRS doesn't mind been reset in flight (even with upto 40deg bank!) :eek:

.... or you could just use a few items of cardboard as said :ok:

[Fuji Abound]

I agree, just pull the relevant C/Bs they are on the P2 side anyway (well in the DA40/42) or turn down the backlight - far easier than messing with bits of card. (Not that pulling the C/Bs would be a good idea if you actually had to fly a IAP to minima in real IMC).

I still cant understand all the excitement about glass - it does the same job. Yes, it does improve situational awareness, but that is down to the moving map and you can have one of those without Garmin or Avidyne.

[B2N2]

Pulling CB's is something that should be frowned upon.
Much better to do the relevant bits in a FNPT II where a realistic failure can be practiced.

[dont overfil]

E 1-19
Having to do some exersizes on a different a/c seems to me a poor solution.
On a DA40/42 how can partial panel be practised with no turn co-ordinator? Or am I missing something?
The large piece of cardboard is a bit harsh. I need some instruments.
The only backup instruments are horizon, ASI and altimeter.
DO.

[englishal]

I did my renewal last month and we had to use lots of post it notes to cover up the glass display for the partial failure. Not ideal but better than closing down the system, did leave sticky marks on screen though
Pulling CB's is fine. That is how Diamond teach it on their factory training courses, and that is how I have always been subjected to PP. It is far more realistic than pieces of cardboard stuck to the screen.

[Fuji Abound]

On a DA40/42 how can partial panel be practised with no turn co-ordinator? Or am I missing something?

Why would you need one. You have an electric AI. In the event that both screens fail (as unlikely as this might be) that is all that will be available (and compass and ASI). Are you anticipating complete electrical failure including the backup supply for the panel and the engines. If that were to happen the engine(s) will also have stopped so I guess PP will be the least of your worries.

I have experienced failure of the DI for real on the G1000 (a common occurence in the early DA40s). I have never had a failure of the AI but in the event of a major failure of the AHRS both the AI and DI will be lost unless the aircraft has a dual AHRS which most do not.

(Edited to add a failure of the AHRS could result in loss of AI and TS, the GMU is a seperate system, and as far as I am aware loss of the GMU, AI and TS would be very unlikely, short of a dual screen failure).

[dont overfil]

I brought this up because during my recent renewal (conventional cockpit) the examiner had a printed list of the exercises he required me to demonstrate and recovery from unusual attitudes on partial panel was one of them.
If I had wanted to do the renewal on the G1000 (C182) which I now fly would he have refused or deleted that item on his list?
Is this a CAA checklist?
DO.

[Fuji Abound]

Appendix 8 of LASORS is what you need.

So far as PP is concerned the same section on the initial test is required for a renewal.

Limited Panel Instrument Flying
Assuming failure of the gyroscopic pitch
and bank indicator and gyroscopic direction
indicator): Straight and level flight, climbing and
descending, turns onto given headings, recovery
from unusual attitudes.

As I mentioned earlier with a typical G1000 fit in the event of the AI on the PDF failing you are going to be flying on the backup AI - if that fails there is nothing much left, although I guess PDF AI and backup AI is a remotely possible failure mode if you were having the worst day imaginable in which case I guess you could be left with the DI on the PDF and the manual turn and slip on the standby AI, backup altimeter (or backup altimeter and altimeter on the PDF) and backup ASI (or backup ASI and ASI on the PDF).

In reality the worst likely failure mode is both the PDF and MDF screens fail and in the event you would be flying by sole reference to the backup AI, ASI, altimeter and magnetic compass. Other than flying an IAP to minima without any help from AT this should prove possible.

[dont overfil]

Fuji,
Thanks. I think that answers my question.
DO.

[Whopity]

The point is that the rating may be exercised in a aeroplane having only basic flight instruments therefore you must demonstrate the limited panel exercises using the TC or T&S.
The Examiners Handbook states that If the main part of the test is flown in an aircraft without a TC or T&S then the partial panel items must be flown in another aircraft or suitably qualified FNPT.

[moonym20]

just to add in again...

i have heard a couple of instances with the G1000 PFD and MFD 'flickering' independantly... the PFD failed, MFD kicked into revisonary mode and worked, then that failed... i think it was on a training flight in IMC, no drama, revert back to the 'old instruments' get VMC and navigate home the way it used to be done :ok:

[Fuji Abound]

Whopity

Are you referring to the initial test or renewal?

[Whopity]

Fuji,
Both, because limited panel features in the initial test and on renewals.

[mark147]

It's quite clear in the documents: you can't do an IMC test entirely in a glass cockpit aircraft. See section 2.2.1 of this doc (http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/33/srg_fcl_25v2.pdf):

If the flight test is conducted in an aeroplane without a separate turn coordinator or turn needle then the limited panel items on the test schedule must be carried out on a separate flight in a suitably equipped aeroplane, or in a JAR-STD device qualified to FNPT 1 or FNPT 2. This flight will count as part of one of the three allowable flight tests.

Mark

[Fuji Abound]

It is a shame that with the growth of glass the CAA have not seen fit to update the requirements.

Flying glass on the standby AI should not present a problem although the position of the standby AI can be an issue leading to spatial disorientation. For example, the positioning of the standby AI on Mooneys to the right of the P2 panel may not be ideal.

Of course glass aircraft do have a turn coordinator - the autopilot - which will continue to function independent of the PDF or the underlying electronics. The autopilot will fly a dct to and will establish a VS and will not exceed rate 1 turns in the process of applying alternate or new dct to steers.

In my view it is more important that IF the pilot only uses glass he should demonstrate use of the autopilot for partial panels ops rather than waste his and the instructors time flying another aircraft with a six pack. (Or a sim).

In fact one might argue if the pilot has demonstrated in a glass cockpit he can fly the aircraft using the autopilot he has demonstrated partial panel using a turn and slip indicator perhaps with the caution that the instructor restricts the rating to an aircraft with either glass or six pack and autopilot!

[VeriLocation]

Having done the main ILS/VOR approach parts of the IMC in my own DA40 ( which is the ONLY plane I fly ) I now have to go off and fly an AT3 ( which I will never fly ) to demonstrate use of a turn co-ordinator.....Agree with previous posts in that the autopilot ( and use of ) should be allowed in this situation. We need to think about why there is the requirement and not the need to comply with the letter of the rules. Maybe all irrelevant if IMC goes in any case....

[jxk]

Back in the 'good' old days I was taught to fly IMC on just the compass and the rev counter: compass for the left and right bit and the rev counter for the up and down bit.

[dont overfil]

It's harder now that we have electrickery.
DO.