Chaos at Terminal 5

[Magplug]

Willie Walsh is crowing already that the first BA aircraft departed on time this morning from terminal 5..... And so it did.

It was also the last aircraft that left on time as poor organisation by both BA and BAA have contributed to delays running up to 2 hours due to problems attributed to passenger handling, baggage, ground transport shortages and security. It seems that all those bright minds that have devised the foolproof tests that have been going on over the past few months... actually got their sums badly wrong. It seems BA will be forced to cancel a number of services today in an effort to recover the situation.

Yet again the travelling public are to suffer, but you will be pleased to hear that the T5 shops are doing such a roaring trade that the deafening sound of the cash registers can be heard all the way over in the City of London.

Time to consider your future Mr. Walsh..... Time to move on.

[Skipness One Echo]

Delays on BAA Departures started at a 90 min average and are now going beyond two hours. Yesterday I had a BA B767 an hour late on stand as they couldn't get anyone to bring it over from the Maintenance Base so I was over an hour late going to Dusseldorf ! Also the A319 that brought me home was an hour late for reasons that the new Captain was even told about. Last month I was 90 minutes late to Brussels as the crew couldn't get a bus out to Stand 440 to prepare the aircraft.
I suspect all of the above will be just as true at Terrible 5. Get your bloody act together you muppets !

[HotDog]

What do you expect of an opening of a very busy new facility? There will be a lot more glitches before it settles down to an ordinary routine. Give them a chance.

[Skipness One Echo]

Believe me the theory from New South Wales is spot on but the reality in London has to be seen to be believed. The words piss up and brewery spring to mind.

[PoloJamie]

I'm with HotDog on this one I'm afraid. As with everything that is first run/opened/started/whatever, there are going to be teething problems. I'm fairly sure that this isn't the first time this kind of thing has happened.

Nevertheless, even thought it's only recently been opened, it does sound like the management could have done better.

[Skipness One Echo]

As a regular user of BA at Heathrow, and still mightily hacked off from yesterdays delays at Terrible One, ( still falling down, no natural light and more shops than Bluewater ), the BA operation at Heathrow with the same militant unions, and congested airspace and full runways is approaching a turning point. If Terminal 5 is any less than a triumph then I no longer give a damn about Heathrow and Runway 3. They can't run an on time airline sp there's no point in booking on business. If the BAA balls this up and insist on fingerprinting the public out of greed for retail profits then I hope that CDG and AMS wipe the floor with this bunch of clowns. .
BAA are ****. Really awful, unfocussed and greedy company that has overreached itself and is in a mountain of debt already.
Wait for "We know Terminal 5 isn't what we promised but Heathrow East will be" Haaaah! *goes for a lie down*

[Chris Scott]

Just for the record, wasn't it as late as yesterday that it was decided to substitute mug-shots in place of fingerprinting? Can anyone tell us what effect this is having on security flow-rates?

By the way, are you guys already checking in at T5, or are you still using the "Bouncy Castle"?

[lexoncd]

Day 1 give them a chance. Gardmoemen have many challenges wnen Fornebu closed overnight yet did anyone worry some weeks later when things settled down.

Think what its like when you move house and you planned that yourself then multiply that X fold and you might start to have a slight understanding of the logistics involved.

Could they have moved T1 operations first then T4? Well no because the integration is planned for one terminal.

BA and BAA have done many things to be annoyed about but give the troops on the ground a break...

[757_Driver]

Just for the record, wasn't it as late as yesterday that it was decided to substitute mug-shots in place of fingerprinting? Can anyone tell us what effect this is having on security flow-rates?


dunno, but that's BAA's problem. you can't just ignore the law of the land just because it suits you.
Its about time BAA started thinking about how to run an airport and stop thinking about how much shopping revenue they can extract from the poor passengers wallet.

BA and BAA have done many things to be annoyed about but give the troops on the ground a break...

Fair comment - and I accept it is a mammouth task, however..... this is not the first time the BA and BAA have left their paying customers in a mess, and nobody really gives a toss if there is a valid reason. All they care about is that once again, the product they purchased has failed to be delivered.

[Skipness One Echo]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/7314816.stm

As I said, couldn't find their own backsides with both hands and a torch.

[spannersatKL]

er excuse its the firsts day....no way surely they have actually looked at other airport openings (I was at HKG 10 years ago and that had a lot to learn from) and see the cockups there and learned.....sadly not from the looks of the posts here.

[Dysag]

I'm waiting for someone from Singapore to write in agreeing:

"it's normal, to be expected, teething troubles, was a big job you know".

"every time we open a new terminal we have the same mess" ...

Or rather I'm not waiting because it won't happen.

This is a very British cockup in the British way of doing things.

BAA & BA probably thought it was "good enough", and they'd get away with it.

[al446]

The Guardian was reporting at 10.45 that the baggage computer had crashed as someone had entered (initialised it?) with wrong time:uhoh:

[infrequentflyer789]

Willie Walsh is crowing already that the first BA aircraft departed on time this morning from terminal 5..... And so it did.


If we believe the BBC it also left without baggage, which I would have thought makes loading somewhat quicker. http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/7314816.stm (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/7314816.stm). Wonder when they are plannign the first on-time departure with bags ?


A bbc article earlier today also quoted long queues at checking and security, quoting Walsh as saying:some passengers were turning up particularly early for flights, adding to queues
Presumably the right thing to do faced with a new terminal with reported teething problems is to turn up late. :ugh:

[gehenna]

Folks, don't make excuses for this incompetent shower 'running' LHR. They have had sufficient time for dry runs, but still they cannot get it right. Equipment breakdowns are also down to shoddy workmanship, but then that's what the UK is becoming - shoddy.

As previously stated, all that BAA and their Spanish owners are after is your money, and they do not care much about how you are dealt with, nor delays; after all, if you are delayed, you are more likely to use the stores in the terminal.

Try Paris, Frankfurt or Amsterdam, as they all leave LHR way behind, and the staff are generally more friendly than the often rude staff at LHR.

[BMEDFO]

Just heard on the radio that BA pax aren't recieving their bags and to expect long queues at T5 !

Whoops!!

Re Expect teething problems in day 1? Why? This didn't happen when Singapore opened up their latest terminal on day 1.

Fiasco @ 5 well done BA/BAA!!

[warkman]

Incoming passengers facing a two hour delay for their baggage

Who woukld beleive that a Spanish run airport could have such delays.

Malaga anyone? :p:p:p

[172driver]

The problem is not that there are glitches on day one - that's to be expected. The problem is that this bunch of wankers have NEVER in decades been able to run the airport as an airport !! As a shopping mall, well, that's another kettle of fish entirely.......

[Skipness One Echo]

It's the same muppets that made our lives a misery at Terminals 1,2,3 and 4 running the show, we should *NOT* be that surprised.

[BMEDFO]

From BA.COM

"On 27 March 2008, London Heathrow Terminal 5 will welcome the first British Airways passengers through its doors. It’s the culmination of an amazing project that began with one thought – to make connecting the world simple and pleasurable again. The result is a seamless and upgraded airport experience unlike any other in the world, and one that’s exclusively for British Airways passengers."

Classic.

[ZFT]

to make connecting the world simple and pleasurable again.


Providing you don't arrive from BKK, SIN or SYD as it's off to T3 we go.

[sanjosebaz]

I'm just thankful that the likes of Emirates fly directly to regional airports, so I can avoid the fiasco that is Heathrow completely. I have no desire to witness T5 at all.

[Hand Solo]

What a pity it didn't all go seamlessly on day one, just like Hong Kong and Denver. Wait a minute...........

[Long Haul]

CNN has just announced that BA "moved 1000 aircraft overnight", so a few glitches are to be expected..

[monkeybusiness2]

1000 aircraft?

Blimey when did we get that big?

[fc101]

From BA.COM

"On 27 March 2008, London Heathrow Terminal 5 will welcome the first British Airways passengers through its doors. It’s the culmination of an amazing project that began with one thought – to make connecting the world simple and pleasurable again. The result is a seamless and upgraded airport experience unlike any other in the world, and one that’s exclusively for British Airways passengers."

Classic.That is a honest reflection of what happens...seems like T5 is no different from the rest of Hellrow - the same hell experience everywhere!

Note to BAA: I shall not be using your services again; I guess you don't really care about this at all but that's been your attitude to passingers, sorry "customers" or now "shoppers" all along. From your totally incompetent handling of security and general management of an airport from both SLF and crew side of things to your latest madness called T5 and its orwellian style sercurity procedures...absoluately disgusting.

[G-CPTN]

Apparently - according to BA(A) - the problems are attributable to late arrival of staff (baggage handlers?) who had problems with car parking and security screening checks . . .

and:- . . . was due to take off from T5 for Los Angeles at 1005 GMT. Almost three hours later the plane was still on the runway waiting for passengers' baggage to be loaded.
"Apparently the computer software told the baggage people that the flight had taken off. So everyone in the plane just watched as all their suitcases were taken back into the terminal instead of being loaded on."

(More at:- http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/7314816.stm )

[747-436]

Apparently - according to BA(A) - the problems are attributable to late arrival of staff (baggage handlers?) who had problems with car parking and security screening checks . . .

Yep the BAA in their wisdom this morning only had one of two ground level security points open meaning 40 minute queues for staff to get in, making them late, which in turn has knocked into everything else.
You would have thought on the first day they would have opened all points but no, this is the BAA.
Utter uselessness from the BAA. Unfortunatly BA is on the end of these BAA caused problems, not that BA doesn't have its problems but if BAA could just sort themselves out!

[Woofrey]

What's all this crap about "teething troubles" and difficulties are to be expected in projects such as this ?

I recall North Terminal at Gatwick and LHR T4 coming on stream without "chaos".

Both run by BAA...... but not the same BAA as the current version is run by a load of money grabbing, process management orientated muppets who have bugger all aviation experience - they probably think they have done a good enough job when compared to their previous factory / warehouse / retail operations.

They have spent millions of pounds and man hours practising this, but the end result appears to be woeful.

Wait for the corporate spin from the PR man, ( ex government by the way ), and yeah, there'll be a load of bonuses for opening on time.

:ugh:

[rebellion]

Lack of Fuel at T5 now......see the video..........:cool:

Car Park Ticket Machines Broken, Escalators broken, lack of fuel, Queues............ the list goes on.

The world is laughing at Britain again............ :ooh:

And Willie reckons it's still a good day- what's the man on!!!

http://news.sky.com/skynews/article/0,,30400-1310756,00.html

[Splodge2]

:ok:

This doesnt surprise me at all with the BA Management all believing that they are so much better than anybody else whilst enjoying all the trimings of being a BA employee. Some [minority] are very good and work hard but others undertake the least amount that they can get away with and enjoy all the BA 5* benefits whilst claiming overtime and every adhoc payment that they can think off!

I'm just hoping that the recent 777 incident doesnt end up being a BA induced problem when the AAIB report is published.

As a passenger, I dont care whose fault it actually is. BA ultimately is at fault for not making sure that ALL plans for T5 are implemented smoothly, regardless of what company they try to pin the blame on this time. Stand up BA and take it on the chin for a change.

Time to get the Emirates buyout back on the table, Willy :)

[fendant]

I am glad I choose LX today. No traffic jam on the motorway, the usual Hellrow chaos at drop off. I am now sitting in shabby T2 after a speedy and friendly security procedure. My LX flight is on time.:)

Maybe I really had the lucky draw today! It paid off that I paid 12£ more compared to BA.

Hope the bus works, my car is still in Zurich AP parking and no traffic congestion on my way home.

Frank

[Dysag]

For those who live in the UK: think of what happens when you go to your high street electrical store and want some product info other than the price. Arrives a spotty-faced youf who's obviously had no education and doesn't know a woofer from a mouse.

Multiply that by 1000+ and you've got Heathrow. I don't believe most of the problems originate from faulty equipment. Faulty training, possibly. Faulty management, certainly.

[HEisLEGEND]

it would be nice to hear from someone working there,explaining what the hell is going on in the bags dept and its sistem ..ofcourse they could have done hundreds of dry tests but nothing like the real mess going on and all the thousands of situations that can occur to get the real picture..someone needs a steady hand and make the show happen.real managers.:p

[Facelookbovvered]

It seems that bmi plan to delay starting US services until the market and the changes at LHR terminals settles down look shrewd and ..er common sense, perhaps they have been around long enough to see a fluster cluck comming when they see one, i bet their bookings over the next few weeks will be up.

For t5 despite all the problems, nobody will get burnt by hot water in the toilets as every tap will have had a warning that this hot water is HOT and may burn you, yes every single penny that should have been spent on equipment, quality staff and training will have spent on health and saftey and nice shop fronts. LoL

[muppitt]

Just goes to show that it takes more than a few power dressing ponytails with clipboards to manage the world's busiest international airport.

As for Poor Wullie, his staff don't trust him, his customers now don't trust him - and with a bit of luck, his shareholders will soon start thinking the same way by the time they read their morning papers.

I'm pretty sure Oor Paddy must have overtaken all his predecessors by now in the bad news ratings for BA.

Mind you he looks as if he may have a great future as a horse jockey!

[reallynoidea]

From Aunty -
"
One passenger in a wheelchair was stuck on a flight arriving into T5 from Glasgow for more than an hour - and then when he was transported to the terminal he realised he could not get up the kerb.
"I couldn't even get into the building without getting up a step," Matt Duffy told the BBC.
"It is totally unbelievable as far as I am concerned."
"
and even better..
"
Heather Stevens' partner Neil Stonebridge was due to take off from T5 for Los Angeles at 1005 GMT. Almost three hours later the plane was still on the runway waiting for passengers' baggage to be loaded.
Heather, 36, told the BBC: "Apparently the computer software told the baggage people that the flight had taken off, So everyone in the plane just watched as all their suitcases were taken back into the terminal instead of being loaded on"
"
Awesome...

[p7lot]

What A Disgrace !!!!

[old,not bold]

As a one-time airport manager (BAA even) I'm with all those who believe that the pathetic excuse "first day, mustn't expect too much" etc etc etc is exactly the kind of thinking that leads to cockups.

THERE IS NO REASON WHATSOVER that it should not go absolutely perfectly on the first day of operation. Indeed it is the one day it should go perfectly.

After that it's all downhill as machines break down and demands increase.

As has been suggested, BAA is a useless airport operating company, under previous and present ownership. Its strategic view that airports are shopping malls with a captive "footfall" is the culprit. There is no-one, no-one, in any position of responsibility who has any experience or knowledge of air transport.

I recall people being vilified from the late 1980's onwards, ie when the shopkeepers took over, for suggesting that an airport's only role was to transfer people from one mode of transport to another as painlessly, efficiently. seamlessly and above all as quickly as possible. Those of us who thought that way were informed by the retailer(s) in charge that we simply didn't understand modern business.

Above all we were told that we should not resist the company objective of increasing dwell time in the departure lounges.

So it comes as no surprise that T5's first day is already a national joke. I really don't blame BA, although they could and should have have the balls to force BAA to do it properly from the time the project started.

BAA will look at the receipts from retail and catering as its only measure of how well the day went.

I heard on Radio 2 at about 2.30 that someone had phoned his wife to say that they had been told to wait 3 hours to collect their baggage after landing. What a fiasco. How shaming for Britain.

And don't get me started on the finger-printing idea. A stupid notion, introduced for the wrong reasons (maximise shopping exposure) by idiots blinded by their shopping obsession to the obvious flaws that would never let it actually happen. Thank God it's gone, but what a way to "run" things.

[newjourno]

All check in suspended in T5, reports say.

[BMEDFO]

Is that the BA's staff new T5 deal- Home by 5pm!!!!

[G-CPTN]

Contingency plan?

[EagleStar]

How long before we see tents outside??????


EagleStar

[Skipness One Echo]

Check in at Terminal 5 has been suspended. A national bloody joke. Well done BAA.

[Airways B]

If these are 'teething problems' there's going to be one hell of a big baby screaming tonight!

Who's going to be the 'dummy' to shut it up?

AB

[Hot Wings]

At last the world can see how bad BA's management is! This is the result of years of focusing on cost cutting and screwing your staff until all goodwill has gone. Who cares about the pax?! Don't worry, this summer's pilots strike will give BA and the BAA plenty of time to sort out their "teething problems".

[Richard Taylor]

BAA & BA should hang their heads. :ugh:

Someone sell off the shambles that is BAA asap!!!!

[EagleStar]

(B)uild (A) nother (A) rcade
(B) loody (A) trocious

EagleStar

[Seloco]

What a dire, dire day for British aviation. CNN is now reporting: "the wheels are off the wagon". What ignominy!

A few weeks ago I took part in one of the T5 trials. It seemed to work then, just, but of course they weren't testing at real volumes, and they weren't testing arriving baggage. In spite of that, and in spite of my overall misgivings about Heathrow generally, I had really hoped that T5 could at least start life as a roaring success. Seems it is not to be...........

[nosefirsteverytime]

It sort of begs the question:

With four major airports (City notwithstanding) available, why has the British Government allowed London's international traffic be bottlenecked into one airport?

[crispey]

Like some others out there I resolved 2 years ago never to use LHR for transfers from MAN again unless absolutely necessary.After nearly missing the ANZ 1 to LAX/NAN/AKL thanks to what seemed like a year spent in the transfer system I now use AA,DL,SQ or whoever.And don't talk about the luggage handling.The little white van man from Wigan says he does a roaring trade in next day deliveries most days.

[Skipness One Echo]

why has the British Government allowed London's international traffic be bottlenecked into one airport?

Do some searching there are numerous threads. The days HM Govt telling people where they are allowed to fly from is well past, and rightly so. The big business is at Heathrow. When BA tried to move business to Gatwick, it stayed behind at LHR and flew with someone else.

[Bus429]

Are we Brits truly bad at organising infrastructural - is that a word? - issues? Is it a matter of poor planning, do-it-on-the-cheap or just bad luck?

[Seloco]

Are we Brits truly bad at organising infrastructural - is that a word? - issues? Is it a matter of poor planning, do-it-on-the-cheap or just bad luck?

Whatever the reason, we have just over four years to learn how to get it right!

[Skipness One Echo]

BAA are retail focussed with not a ****ing clue about customer service, passenger comfort, on time departures and adequate and efficient security. Indeed it is in their interests that my flight is a little delayed as I will ( and DO, end up spending more in the bloody shops ).

BA should be ashamed that the wheels have been allowed to come off their big day in such a public and spectacular way. I fly BA, I like BA, but I'm sick to the back teeth of the god awful BAA that keeps getting in my way for an on time departure !

[G-CPTN]

Just heard (from a Beeb reporter who was a passenger) that it took longer for passengers to disembark at T5 than it took to fly from Paris to London . . .

Just who is responsible for this debacle? BA or BAA?
I think we should be told.
From JetBlast:- http://www.pprune.org/forums/showpost.php?p=4006946&postcount=24

[Rob Courtney]

Oh wonderful, somthing to look forward to next week then, I normally fly into Gatwick and then drive out of town rather than go through Heathrow but thought Id give them another chance.:ugh:

Ah well back to Gatwick and the clapped out 737 fleet again.

[fruitbat]

Its the BAA who have built and who run the terminal infrastructure. It's their mess. I hear the shops and restaurants are running fine however:ugh:

[Airways B]

Interestingly (!) not a mention of any problems on BAA's website, perhaps this has been blown out of all proportion? :hmm:

"Terminal 5 opens for business (and pleasure) at 04:00 on 27.03.08. Designed by Rogers Stirk Harbour & Partners around people, not just planes, it’s going to make flying in and out of London as easy and enjoyable as it should be. New technology and direct transport links will make your journey simpler and faster. We’ve created shopping and eating that’s inviting, not intrusive. And with construction finished a new era for world travel can begin. Queuing, walking and waiting have made room for light, space and time - to relax, take in the views and rediscover the joy of flying."

[G-STAW]

i heard also that the baggage system has had a complete breakdown, one flight left without any bags.....

not sure whether to believe that......

scott

[Bristol based Taffy]

Ok not wishing to start a thread within a thread....but can someone with inside knowledge please explain WHY when the dust has settled in a few months are the BA flights to BKK HK SYD and a 'few' others remaining in the other terminals.

Surely the idea was to put all the eggs in one basket i.e. T5 and leave the rest of the terminals to the other carriers??

[halo]

It is always the same thing in the UK....

Form over Function... It looks beautiful but it doesn't fulfill the purpose sufficiently..

It is a national obsession for things to be on time and on budget... but nobody ever asks... Does it actually work!! And until we cure this dangerous obsession with letting companies push projects into the limelight in an incomplete state then our lovely country will slide further and further into an incompetent mire.

It's tragic :(

[Hand Solo]

Ok not wishing to start a thread within a thread....but can someone with inside knowledge please explain WHY when the dust has settled in a few months are the BA flights to BKK HK SYD and a 'few' others remaining in the other terminals.

Surely the idea was to put all the eggs in one basket i.e. T5 and leave the rest of the terminals to the other carriers??

In a nutshell, because T5 isn't big enough for them all to fit, so some have to go to another terminal.

[747-436]

Ok not wishing to start a thread within a thread....but can someone with inside knowledge please explain WHY when the dust has settled in a few months are the BA flights to BKK HK SYD and a 'few' others remaining in the other terminals.

Surely the idea was to put all the eggs in one basket i.e. T5 and leave the rest of the terminals to the other carriers??

T5 is too small, simple as.

Just seen some MP on Sky News giving BA a thrashing, but he didn't seem to mention BAA much in this!

[Sallyann1234]

T5 -
No luggage, no checkin,
but the shops are open for business!

The government now has no choice.
BAA must be broken up into smaller, properly managed units.

[d71146]

I have just seen this I have a feeling that some figures in all this will soon be taking their pictures off the office wall.

[Airways B]

"T5 -
No luggage, no checkin,
but the shops are open for business!"

And just look at all those acres of lovely open space. just like there used to be at Stansted ...now full of shops. :{

[egbt]

Does anyone know how many flights were moved to T5 on day 1?

I would have though moving a relatively small number and certainly not more than T1 was handling would have been a sensible start.

And what ijit at BA decided to send out a mail shot this morning saying how good it was all going to be, sending it out (or not) a day or so after opening would have been rather more sensible.:ugh::ugh:

John

[Ex Cargo Clown]

Good to see Gareth Kirkwood wheeled out trying to explain what has gone wrong.

So he's overseen the opening of the Cargo Centre which went pear-shaped and now is watching T5 go into meltdown.

I've had a few run-ins with this idiot, and it's fair to say everything he touches turns to sh1t.

When will BA learn that their entire (with a few exceptions) senior management is completely and utterly incompetent.

[G-CPTN]

one flight left without any bags.....
Just one?
The first flight of the day left 'on schedule' but without any baggage (as it wasn't possible to process it in time).
34 flights cancelled and several left 'hand baggage only'.
Just what do you do with your hold luggage if you had to fly but were told 'no baggage'? I don't suppose BA would look after it for you whilst you were away? Would they arrange for it to follow?

[andyhargreaves]

Wow. Flights will be leaving tonight, but no checked in bags can be taken :eek::eek:

Hope it's fixed for my T5 adventure on Saturday!

[Hand Solo]

Is that the same Gareth Kirkwood that the Americans are investigating for the price fixing? I'm watching him on TV through a fork so I can imagine what he'd look like behind bars.:E

[d71146]

Thats a good un LOL

[G-CPTN]

BAA stating that the baggage system as been working satisfactorily, but that BA (who are responsible for loading the bags onto and off the system) have not been succeeding.

[kingdee]

Just looked at link below and BA and apparently BA have now employed volunteers .The mind boggles
http://www.britishairways.com/travel/flightops/public/en_gb

Mol must be loving all this even Lib dem leader has slagged ba off on bbc one.:ugh::rolleyes::mad::\

[Ex Cargo Clown]

"Is that the same Gareth Kirkwood that the Americans are investigating for the price fixing? I'm watching him on TV through a fork so I can imagine what he'd look like behind bars."

As Mr Keegan famously said. "I'd love it, just love it" :D

What a fiasco, I wouldn't trust Kirkwood to mind my hamster, never mind oversea the transition to T5.

Wonder how much of a kickback he got off Hatton for the "Dunwoody deal".

[Hand Solo]

Of course they are. They won't actually pay for any extra staff but they can always cross their fingers and hope people will come in for nothing and help. Wonder if Tesco asks for volunteers to cope with the Christmas rush.

[muppitt]

Can't see Mr. Kirkwood removing that nice sharp pin-stripey jacket and helping the lads out downstairs clear the back log.

Don't think they cover crisis management and forward planning strategy as part of the History of Art degree, so they?? :oh:

Rude chap, wouldn't even take questions from the press (or his customers).

Oor Wullie has run out of hours after his 4.25am (on-time) start this morning to meet the HKG, so probably won't be seen til the morning.

[Navajo8686]

As somebody who has been trying to get my company's retail unit up and running I am not in the slightest bit surprised that it has been a shambolic day.

I've spent the last year fighting with BAA (who really is the villan of the piece) - one half of BAA has been threatening to take action because the retail unit could not be 'completed then mothballed' ready for action today and another part of BAA refusing contractor access, not sorting out logistical issues and being downright obstructive :ugh:

:{

[Lucky B]

Is anyone really surprised by the complete mess at T5. p..s up and brewery certainly come to mind and BA and BAA are fast becoming a laughing stock. Interesting that Mr Walsh is nowhere to be seen and is another fiasco on top of the 777 one. No one seems to be in charge, no communication but most of all how can you allow this to happen when it has taken years to design and build and test (perhaps it wasn't!) and there really can be no excuse. Heads should roll!!

[Nipper2]

I can only hope they get it sorted out by the end of July. I have an absolute policy of not booking with BA but the British Olympic Association' deal with them to take the British Team to the Games in Beijing means I will have no choice.

Maybe T5 will be fixed by then but the pilots will be on strike? What an unholy mess......

As fas as I am concerned all the main London airports are now 'third-world' standard at best. Much of Africa and most of Asia is in fact much better. Classic monopoly-supply pricing and customer service and it can only be a mater of when, not if they are broken up.

[nomorethanbablue]

Form over Function... It looks beautiful but it doesn't fulfill the purpose sufficiently..

It is a national obsession for things to be on time and on budget... but nobody ever asks... Does it actually work!! And until we cure this dangerous obsession with letting companies push projects into the limelight in an incomplete state then our lovely country will slide further and further into an incompetent mire.

St Pancras International being the exception to the rule? I know which I prefer - you don't have to worry about BAA at St Pancras...

BABlue(s)

[Rwy in Sight]

I am wondering if the bonuses to the top executives responsible for the move will be paid (with an additional amount for exceeding targets) as is usually the case?

Rwy in Sight

[CEJM]

I've had a few run-ins with this idiot, and it's fair to say everything he touches turns to sh1t.

I hope for you that you didn't shake his hand!! :E

[hometown]

Good to see Gareth Kirkwood wheeled out trying to explain what has gone wrong.

So he's overseen the opening of the Cargo Centre which went pear-shaped and now is watching T5 go into meltdown.

I've had a few run-ins with this idiot, and it's fair to say everything he touches turns to sh1t.

When will BA learn that their entire (with a few exceptions) senior management is completely and utterly incompetent.
Ex Cargo Clown is online now Report Post Reply

Just saw the pathetic statement he made on Sky News , finished and turned on his heels and just walked away, refusing to answer any questions . I watched opened mouthed at this petulent display from a senior BA executive.
A truely unforgivable thing to do in the circumstances but ther you have the true face of Senior BA management , and people wonder why BA has such bad industrial relations.

Next time we see Gareth Kirkwood he'll probably be wearing an orange boiler suit , sharing a cell with crazy Bubba in the good old US of A. Nothing less than than he deserves imo.

Hand baggage only... my god BA 027 / BA 031 / BA057 to name but three of tonights big departures , you couldn't make it up !
I really feel for the passengers and the ordinary staff , this is the chickens coming home to roost after Walsh and his leadership team have slashed good experienced staff and generally managed to upset those that remain , all so the magic 10% margin can be achieved thus triggering huge bonuses for the senior management.



Make no mistake this is a complete and utter disaster for BA and i truely believe heads will roll over this .

WW for one, should seriously be considering his future,

[chrisbl]

Well I am off to Newcastle tomorrow so it will only be hand baggage for me. I cannot afford my penguin suit to not arrive with me.

[G-CPTN]

If you want to know something about someone - consult Wikipedia (but to date, there is no entry for Gareth Kirkwood . . . ).There is no page titled "Gareth Kirkwood".
Funny old World.

[skysod]

BA check-in staff should be compelled to ask one extra question............have you packed anything in your bag that you actually need?

What a complete bunch of w@nkers!

BA are without doubt now the laughing stock of the world.

If I worked for them I'd actually be ashamed to admit it!

Full service airline? What a bloody joke!

They make Ryan Air look like silver service!

[Terminal 5]

Just saw the pathetic statement he made on Sky News , finished and turned on his heels and just walked away, refusing to answer any questions . I watched opened mouthed at this petulent display from a senior BA executive.

Although having said that do you think some of that stems from having someone who used to run Downing Streets communications in charge of BA's?!? Could it be he is directed on how and what to say by them?

[BMEDFO]

Whats the bets Ryanair take a advert out tommrow offering free flights for T5 Refugees and for a extra couple of quid their luggage can go to!!



:ugh:

[DarkStar]

Pax stuck on A/c due late TRM's, lack of jetties, missing bags, check-in queues, lengthening delays, domestic then European canx, hand baggage check-in only, A/c departing without bags, inbound pax waiting hours for their bags, bad publicity and a total shambles in the glare of Worldwide media - hang on, isn't this a normal day for BA and their long suffering passengers? :hmm:

[M.Mouse]

As a 20 odd year BA employee I cannot tell you all how ashamed this whole sorry mess makes me feel.

[Airbus Unplugged]

In a perverse way I'm actually glad that it's rained on Willie's parade.

Perhaps now the world will understand what a bunch of charlatans are running BA. From the turf accountant at the top, to the legions of 'Apprentice'-esque managers who beset every turgid day of the misery that is Breathtaking Arrogance, there is not one that would merit employment in a fast food outlet.

With any luck, Willie will be fired before we have to face him off in the summer.

One way or another, he'll have to go - and take his 'Leadership Team' with him.

Shucking fambles.

[gordonroxburgh]

Do we actually know what the problems are?

T5's baggage system is specified for dual redundancy at full capacity, so there must be some other problme that was just not captured, as today the terminal is running at around 30-35% of designed capacity

[hometown]

Although having said that do you think some of that stems from having someone who used to run Downing Streets communications in charge of BA's?!? Could it be he is directed on how and what to say by them?
Terminal 5 is offline Report Post Reply

Ah yes ... Julia Simpson head of corporate communications forgot about her and her previous employer , bet she's keeping her head down now.

[Falcon666]

Form over function---exactly

We are sitting in Christchurch NZ having the best laugh of our lives.
Proud to be British--i dont think so.
Nearly every British person here,and probably some Europeans have had to fly through LHR to get here-usually from the Chaos of T3-- but you should hear how many will now try to re-route to other European hubs and then get LCC flights to regionals in the future.
Frankfurt ,Schipol Zurich owners must be watching with interest!!
I used Luton a lot in the UK.OK its Terminal looks like a a bit like an MFI warehouse but at least its organised enough to handle 10Mil passengers a year .
You would expect BAA to get this right with the world watching--or maybe ive been in NZ just that little bit too long. :ugh:

[BusyB]

"For t5 despite all the problems, nobody will get burnt by hot water in the toilets as every tap will have had a warning that this hot water is HOT and may burn you, yes every single penny that should have been spent on equipment, quality staff and training will have spent on health and saftey and nice shop fronts."

I heard that the car parks are technically illegal because Public lifts open onto areas without fire detection/cover.:confused:

[Hand Solo]

Just as well there's only 2 of the 18 lifts working in the car park then!:E

[Desk-pilot]

As an ex BA employee whose wife still works there I feel very sorry for the staff and passengers caught up in this. Make no mistake BA staff are some of the most dedicated and professional I have ever encountered in fifteen years in the industry (and I now work for a rival airline)!

I do know that my wife and countless of her colleagues have yet again turned out ON A VOLUNTARY BASIS UNPAID to help passengers stranded at the terminal - many of them working deep into the night. You don't see it in any other company I can think of, but I have to say that the senior management are in severe danger of losing this goodwill if they continue to amply reward themselves while seeking to hold down the workers terms and conditions.

Like everyone else I want to know where accountability lies for these problems, but it seems to me that much of the blame may lie not with BA but BAA but unfortunately the BBC and other media much prefer to make it all look like BA's fault.

Lets hope that the problems are ironed out asap and simple things like communication are improved - surely it can't be too hard to give passengers instructions on where to go for vouchers, etc via mobile phone text, electronic display board and tannoy. That being so I find seeing so many pax complaining about no information rather puzzling.

Desk-pilot

[Hand Solo]

Well according to CNN, BAA are saying all the baggage infrastructure is working correctly and it's BAs staffs inability to meet the operational demand that is causing the problem.

[hellsbrink]

And BA are seeming being rather quiet on that score, HS...

[sled dog]

My Volvo V70 T5 runs like clockwork..........:p

[spannersatKL]

Who is the to$$er they have put on the TV.....'the most complex terminal move in history'. says he...I think not!! Clearly another of those not actually brought up in the industry, a pretender from some fast food joint or what ever? T5 is around the corner from T4 and across the way from T1. Hardly a difficult move? Try loading ALL the ground equipment on boats/ trucks at midnight and re-opening 35 miles away at 5AM as they did in HKG. (Yes I know that was a cock up too!!).

Thank goodness we still have AMS! Comes in to its own now, remember when it advertised as Londons 3rd Airport?

[hellsbrink]

My Volvo V70 T5 runs like clockwork

They ain't supposed to tick

[theredbarron]

LHR really is now the laughing stock of the world. It looks like that instead of BA flights its now all the proverbial chickens of miss-management that are coming home to roost.

I'm due to fly down from EDI to T5 tomorrow morning - day trip only so thank goodness no baggage to worry about. Usually use BD but thought that I'd give BA a try and see T5 - how wrong can a decision be !

[keeders]

I think it would be an interesting exercise to hear if the new terminal 3 at Beijing is having similar problems, having also opened only just recently and on a similar scale to T5. Can anyone give a view on this ?

Keeders

[darrylj]

bloody hell, i click on sky news & this has made front page!.
damn! :ooh:
after all the promising talk mr walsh & his cargo boys gave us over at world cargo :* :rolleyes:
ever since i started with BA back in July 07, all i have seen, heard & feel is so much negative energy, from what i believed all that time ago was a world class leading airline. we're well behind....:ouch: so much laziness & blame culture going on. seems everyones in it for the money without doing anything positive, not only for the company but a goal for themselves in life.
how wrong was i or am i in the wrong department?.

i know for T5 it's like early days still, but come on, it's not as if T5 just arrived out of nowhere...its been ages to get everything with all the trials & what not, running good enough by now.

what was all my t5 training for?...from what i know, it taught me nothing really...maybe only like where the tea machines are, the best places to hide & skive! etc..;)

i thought that only a handful of comments on this topic would be thumbs down, but its like every post :\
im still on a few days hols from BA but will dread my first day back to see just how messy which im sure it still very much would be it really is.

will be handing in my notice soon its looking too!..:)
im sure there is something better where good teamwork & communication in a company mean something & can actually work.

[ATIS]

Roll on summer 2012. Today was only one terminal, 2012 will be a bunch of stadiums. On that note have they even started to build them yet?

I feel the fault doesn't just rest with BA and BAA. Its our culture as a whole. DISORGANISED. And who will be accountable for this chaos. NO-ONE.

I'm convinced our olympics will suffer the same fate. CHAOS

[derekvader]

The question is are they going to have this fixed tomorrow or is the carnage set to continue for weeks?

Whether it's ultimately BA or BAA's fault the simple fact is that BA should have had a contingency plan in place that could cope with anything, even if that contingency plan involved a number of pre-nominated flights that could have been quietly moved back to T1/T4 for a week (it would not really have been noticed due to there still being other flights leaving from there anyway), an army of people ready to, y'know, read baggage labels and sort the bags by hand, or even for passengers to carry their own bags through to the plane! As it is with seemingly no contingency plan they have made global headlines as an utter laughing stock yet again.

What's made it worse is all the prepublicity that there's been in recent weeks/months about how smoothly this move was supposed to go and how everything was so well tested! Would have been far more sensible to have kept a guarded tongue and then crow about things after the fact when they went well. If you look at one of the (sadly now rare) engineering successes of the country, the various Docklands Light Railway extensions, in each case they have actually commenced service quietly and without fanfare a few days to a week before the official opening date, so that by the time the official opening date comes and the press are ready to eat the project alive, all bugs are already gone.

The icing on the cake though is that spokesman on Sky News. What kind of a joke was he, turning on his heels before barely finishing his last sentence and clearly seen on Sky News running for his life. If any executive position in BA should have a charismatic person who can own the media scrum with ease it should be that one. And as for his claims that this was one of the most complex moves in history, oh dear me. How deluded.

Shambolic.

edit: I should add that I was on one of the last trials that had a couple of thousand volunteers there all trying to check in at once, and that seemed to go OK, although I absolutely slated them on signage (there was absolutely nothing to say where first class check-in was, or to confirm that the escalators going visibly downstairs from the main hall of T5a did indeed go to the train that goes to T5b) and in my personal interview I got I sarcastically mentioned that I didn't think the five or so Harrods shops were quite enough (seriously - you walk around and you just seem to come to Harrods after Boots after Harrods after Boots shop and very little else), but that didn't mean I wanted to see the place fail today.

[operator]

Broken Arrow time.

[go_edw]

So people pay to fly BA because it's a full service airline and;

"Passengers unable to travel have been asked to find their own hotels"

"he was there at 3pm for an 8pm flight and now it looks as if that was just not long enough. Queues are now back to the door .. and still no information. Chaos rules"

God help is in 2012......................

[infrequentflyer789]

As somebody who has been trying to get my company's retail unit up and running I am not in the slightest bit surprised that it has been a shambolic day.

Wait, you mean they couldn't even get the shops right ? I thought that was the one thing these muppets actually knew how to do ! :confused:

[A2QFI]

I haven't read all posts in this thread but there was a gentleman who uses a wheelchair,stuck on an aircraft for over an hour, and then when he got off he found there were areas with no 'dropped' kerbs for him to get his wheelchair up. How did an omission like that get thru any dry runs and testing? It was also mentioned that only one lift out of 18(?) in the whole Terminal was working and they were failing again as fast as they were 'fixed'.

[G-CPTN]

Heathrow East Terminal:-
BAA announced in November 2005 that when Terminal 5 opens Terminal 2 will be closed to allow the Heathrow East scheme to be built.
This will see Terminal 2 and the Queen's Building offices being replaced by a new terminal capable of handling 30 million people, five million fewer than Terminals 1 and 2 are currently used by, although considerably more than the design capacity of the existing buildings.
Work is planned to start in 2008 and to be completed by 2012, in time for the London Olympics, although reported delays are making this target unlikely.

[stormin norman]

The BAA/Hal should be sued big time over this.Another complete cock up by them.
And its the poor passenger who has to suffer yet again.

Why is it anything they do at heathrow is always a disaster.

[hellsbrink]

A cracker in the Daily Mail,



David Haslam, 28, an Army officer from Camberley, Surrey, said he waited for more than three and a half hours to pick up relatives from the arrivals lounge. He said: 'My mother-in-law had to abandon her luggage in the end because she had to get a connecting flight. There is still no sign of my father-in-law.'


Crikey, they've even lost passengers!

[racasan]

What a absolute embarrassment Mr Kirkwood is for BA. No respect for his passengers at all. Bet he has just made a million extra customers....... NOT.

[LGS6753]

There's a nice little airport just up the M1 that will be happy to take your custom. It has flights to 80 destinations all over Europe, at a fraction of Heathrow prices. You can even fly to the Middle East and New York in comfort for a reasonable price.

The car parks are in the same county as the airport, and everything works well most of the time. It's about half an hour from central London by train. It is not run by BAA, and British Airways are nowhere to be seen.

Try it sometime - it's called Luton.:ok:

[11K-AVML]

Don't quite know why BA is attracting all the vitriol. It doesn't operate the baggage system, or the car park, or the security barriers, or unlock the doors of T5 in the morning surely?
BA do handle the baggage handling (aeroplane to terminal vv) and take the responsibility for training thier staff!


And for BAA,
time to increase the airport's fees I suppose! :hmm:

[rerack]

Cant believe what I am seeing happening after all the hype, training and practice runs
I work for this lot and am ashamed to see what we are doing to our customers

[iernl]

A lesson for UK project management. They should have brought the chaps in from somewhere like Schiphol to show them how to do the job properly. No worries, the polite and compliant British travelling public will moan and groan and do absolutely nothing about it!

[merlinxx]

Lets get some real time input from the operational folks. both BAA & Imperial, to todays performance. The hands-on, grass roots day-to-day operational folks can only give us all (industry/SLF) the tru griff where the mega snags occurred.

[11K-AVML]

Aren't they all on the ground trying to sort out the mess??

[jonnymac]

And this means the wrong boys with the right handshake get the right jobs and this is what happens end of story.

[slip and turn]

It's official - Simon Caldwell has just told Willie Walsh "You had your chance and you muffed it!"

[hunterboy]

This is what happens when companies (BAA and BA ) know the price of everything and the value of nothing. I'm still gobsmacked at the rumour of a 14 million quid shortcut BA are paying to BAA to compensate BAA for a drop in Duty Free sales. Kind of sums up both companies priorities if true.

[mfriskel]

I travel frequently from US to middle East and back- I gave our travel service two rules- Do not book me on BA and do not route me thru London. If either shows up on my ittinerary, I don't go. Adding more chaos with an addition terminal of lousey service can't help anything!

[take-off]

Lets hope BAA have nowt to do with the olympics, What a bunch of muppets running UK plc.... funniest thing on tv tonight, BA telling pax they can only travel with hand baggage, got a m8 going to australia in morning for month, with hand baggage??????:ugh::ugh::ugh:
I'm not in favour of nationalistion, but surely somethings should be run by Govt agencies, may not be any better but at least you could find someone to blame.... ~Heathrow may be a love hate relationship for people, but an airport of this importance to UK should not be left to a bunch of numpties to make an utter shamles of...
There should be inquiries into this and people held responsible, You can't blame a computer all the time, its only as good as the person using it.!!
And BA should be stripped of its name, Doesnt deserve to be called 'British'.:mad::mad:

[Hand Solo]

I'm not in favour of nationalistion, but surely somethings should be run by Govt agencies, may not be any better but at least you could find someone to blame...

Just like the Millenium Dome huh?

[sidtheesexist]

Gobonastick - that's a bit harsh on our muppet friends don't you think...? ;) At least they are successful in what they aim to do - i.e. to make us laugh!!! The other lot wanna make me weep........:{

[Double Zero]

An ex-girlfriend of mine ran a computer company, and hoping for big business attended a meeting re.Terminal 5 a few years ago.

One of the other computer whizzes there had fair hair dyed in black streaks, and all his teeth filed into triangular shark-like points !

If that's the sort of person behind the scenes ( as sounds very likely judging by today ) I'll avoid sniffing anything like talcolm powder in the Gents', & go by my boat, thanks !

[wapses]

I've warned everyone I know who has been thinking of flying from LHR to stay the hell away from BA from the third week of March for at least a month.

It was bound to be an almighty cock-up.

And guess what ... it is!

Listening to the story on the news while driving home this evening I almost caused an accident because I was laughing so hard.

Can there be two more incompetent companies than BA and the BAA?

World's favourite airline?????

[Parapunter]

Just been chatting with my buddy who's BAA I.T.

Evidently he reckons there's nothing wrong with the baggage system per se, but there is an issue with training here and there - few guys causing big problems hitting the wrong button at the wrong time, but more pertinently, all the dry runs & tryouts are as nothing when compared with a big, networked multi node system gone live -

As they used to say at the Apollo program, it's not the scenarios you foresee...

[paully]

Heading for Europe?......There is a very competent lot that operate out of Portsmouth. No baggage restrictions, take as much as you want and they operate to time......They are called Brittany Ferries ;);)

[derekvader]

Heh a "National Disgrace" according to the main headline story on News At Ten.

The footage of the guy trapped in the lift, and the reporters running after the fleeing spokesperson, are classics.

[amanoffewwords]

People are talking on here like it's the first time this has happened anywhere.

I was in HK the day Chek Lap Kok opened. It was the same - everything fine until a couple of hours in, then steady descent into chaos.

The transfer of flights from Linate to Malpensa wasn't all that clever either if I recall correctly...must be an airport jinx.

[CaptainH]

I haven't heard any poor reports of Beijing Terminal 3 yet?
Is this because it's working well or because of reporting restrictions?
BA have really shown their true colours today, but how long will the public remember for; No doubt it will be spun out of sight.

[Three Yellows]

As they used to say at the Apollo program, it's not the scenarios you foresee...

I'm not quite sure how you can compare Rocket Science with getting bags from the shopping mall, sorry, Terminal onto the plane. There is surely only one scenario which has been going at LHR for years.

Flying to the moon in the sixties, sure I could accept some unforeseen scenarios

[derekvader]

The transfer of flights from Linate to Malpensa wasn't all that clever either if I recall correctly...must be an airport jinx.

Just because other places have had problems on their first day doesn't give BA/BAA an excuse to fail as well.

The experiences of the previous airports should have been taken as warning signs and opportunities for lessons learnt, not targets.

[Hand Solo]

I haven't heard any poor reports of Beijing Terminal 3 yet?

Have you seen how they treat the Tibet protestors? Would be a brave main who complained about PEK T3!

[Parapunter]

Well, I was only trying to tread lightly on what has clearly been a miserable day for BA & BAA that I am sure they had thought would be a triumph. Turns out I should have expected yet another miserable funucker to jump on.

[Mr Flaps]

Well the bluewater of heathrow has opened and madness starts all over again.
When will BAA get it into their thick heads they are running an airport not a shopping mall.
Its a PR nuclear bomb for BAA and BA.
The trails where a joke. How did 200 or even 1000 people show an average day in T5? As for BA and BAA trying to run away from the press dont hide stand and face the music. Its your mess up.

I work in T1 for bmi and I have heard stories from BA pax who say its like normal but there is a bus ride this time back to T1.

I am laughing and pointing at BA and BAA today. How did it all go so wrong? Both BA and BAA need to ask some big questions about today. This does not look good what will happen when Heathrow East opens. The same mess.

[BAengineering]

Where was willie walsh whilst all this was going on and the place descended into chaos? Doing interviews at CNN, telling how wonderful it all was going.

Did he really not know the place had turned to :mad:

But maybe just maybe this is all deliberate, as incompetant they appear on the exterior, maybe there is a motive behind all this.,

Maybe they actually want the national carrier BA that so many 'real' hands on staff care passionately about, to be run into the ground.

WW and his cronies might actually be in the payment of our competitors, as their doing a grand job of bringing the airline to it's knees. Or should I say belly?

[sky9]

They should pack the lot in suitcases and send them into the system. On the current evidence you wouldn't see them again.
Problem solved.
Now when's that industrial action?

Juts hope they sort it out by April 7th I'm travelling that day and don't intend to go without my baggage.

[Widger]

One of the other computer whizzes there had fair hair dyed in black streaks, and all his teeth filed into triangular shark-like points !

If that's the sort of person behind the scenes ( as sounds very likely judging by today ) I'll avoid sniffing anything like talcum powder in the Gents', & go by my boat, thanks !

You obviously haven't been to Swanwick then!:E:E:E






joke ok just a joke!

[Beausoleil]

Just watched the scenes of queues out the wazoo because the baggage handling had failed. Looked exactly like the situation last time I flew BA out of Manchester and tried to use the "fast" baggage drop.

Is it the new terminal, or is it just general incompetence?

[GLENO]

Ba better be hoping for some good weather....now add this to their problems and all hell will break loose............can't wait!!!!!!!!:}.......

[German Sheperd]

Well...........erm..................what can I say?? :sad:

Can't wait for the GMTV reports tommorow.......a reporter at each check-in booth 'poised' ready for further developments, and a 'stress psycologist' on the sofa, with a chap who once wrote a piece for an aviation mag, giving us their 'interpretations' of events as they unfold.
Maybe Dr Hillary will make an appearance too??

Oh well we're flying out (T5) on Wed (2nd) to Vancouver for our 'honeymoon'..............should be a laugh!!:mad::\:uhoh:

GS:{

[cwatters]

Have they just thrown a big ON switch at T5? I wonder why they didn't run just a few flights through it on day one then ramping up over say a month?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/7317352.stm

Flights from Heathrow's new £4.3bn Terminal 5 are departing with hand baggage only after luggage check-in was suspended due to a processing backlog.

British Airways, which has sole use of T5, announced check-in of all hold luggage was suspended until Friday

The airline has already cancelled 34 flights because of baggage problems and passengers have had to wait up to four hours to reclaim their luggage.

continues.

[Brakes...beer]

Just seen the BBC News. I have never been so ashamed to work for such an organisation: the Ops Director sums up our utterly incompetent, arrogant management. Kirkwood's head should be on a pole outside T5 tomorrow morning. He is a dead man walking, but the real culprit is Walsh: he is the one who has shouted this from the rooftops while going balls out to kick the staff in the slats and "slash" costs. It pains me as an employee to say it, but I laughed watching the news (until I saw Kirkwood), relishing the management's discomfort, while worrying for my own future. We really are now the British Rail of the 21st century.

Perhaps some will at last believe the pilots over Open Skies?

[thunderbird7]

The leadup to this move has been cost cuts after cost cuts. How do you handle a big problem like this move? Reduce staffing levels and design a crap baggage system that's too clever for its own good? Thats the BA way!!

This should be a brain reset for the company and its modus operandi.

[rudolf]

Python had it right, circa 1980.

http://www.last.fm/music/Monty+Python/_/I'm+So+Worried

[GLENO]

"Will the last person out please turn off the lights!!"

No baggage check in!!!....now they are taking the :mad:.......

[BerksFlyer]

Perhaps some will at last believe the pilots over Open Skies?

Unlikely, because most of the general public think the dispute is about pay (classic British ignorance) and view the pilots in the same way as the awful management. You know - overpaid, arrogant etc.

I wish I could write a sitcom about Willie and his circus acts.

[the heavy heavy]

brakes..beer, spot on.

Kirkwoods performance on tv was at a disgrace. I want to go to his briefing at waterworld tomorrow and ask him why he hasn't resigned.

I am at a loss as to where we go from here, all I know is it won't be the truimphant start up off OS!

[Chris Scott]

At risk of retreading ground covered earlier (in which case forgive me; am on a dial-up connection, like watching paint dry :}), the BBC is saying the slowest link in the baggage chain was the loading/unloading, not the handling system. If so, it may reflect to some extent on the decision by BA management, in the mid-1990s, to order dozens of Airbus narrow-bodies without the optional baggage container system.

This decision was despite the success of that very system, which had been used since 1988 on our first 10 (BCAL-ordered) A320s. The story was that the new A319s, whose forward and aft cargo doors are closer to the wings than on the A320s, would have required new 'Lantis' container hoists, to avoid wing contact. The A319 formed the largest part of the mainline deliveries. And of course the B757 and B737 - predominant at that time - did not have the container option...

[Brakes...beer]

the heavy heavy,

I was thinking the same thing: this could be the end of our worries about OS, if the new LT brushes it aside. But from then on, I really don't know if this is the beginning of the end in terms of takeovers etc. I remain foolishly hopeful in the long term.

[pappabagge]

Pray tell, how can one be "burned" by Hot Water?

Call me picky, but I thought one was scalded by HW.

WW however gets scolded - bring out the Scold's Bridle (ancient medieval torture device) and hang 'im on a cross outside Waterside.

[Pidge]

Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha.............. ahhhhhhhhhhh......

[slip and turn]

Why was Kirkwood put in front of the camera in the first place? He's obviously an amateur with little or no media training. Walsh was happy enough to take the presumptory plaudits, both earlier this week and earlier today. Did he not lead BA into this? Or did his shift end at morning coffee, and only after that did someone notice T5 had fallen over?

Maybe Walsh had already resigned when Kirkwood came out? Where was the BAA spokesperson? Why was Nelson playing Mine host when the Queen opened T5 the other day? I was surprised to see him basking in the glow of magnificent presumptories, because I thought he'd already left under a cloud a month ago at least? After the last media disaster leading to his Saturday morning abdication, did someone forget to tell him to clear his desk the following Monday?

I think the whole lot should hand in their badges. T5 cost 5 times what the flippin' Millennium Dome cost and that was a disgraceful waste - so is this. But it doesn't matter I guess, so long as money slushes around for projects like this we can all fool ourselves that we have a dynamic economy and that we all benefit :hmm:

I think I'd prefer one leading to less of these excrutiatingly embarassing failures.

[Hand Solo]

Chris Scott - the A319s have the containerised cargo systems embodied but they have not been utilised to date. The system is to be utilised in T5 where all baggage is containerised. It is for that reason the 757s will operate from T1/T3, as they are unable to accept the baggage containers. I believe the delay issue is in the making up of the containers at the baggage belt.

[Pidge]

..........ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha............. ahhhhhhhhhhh

[Richard J.]

It was notable that on the trial I attended on 31 January, there was hardly any baggage involvement. You could, I suppose, say it was authentic: I checked in a bag and never saw it again!

The tags put on the bags at check-in looked like the usual barcode tags, rather than the RFID-chip tags that I've read about. There was no trialling of obtaining baggage on arrival, so the impression given was that the baggage system wasn't yet ready. Perhaps it was "completed" too late for full trialling and testing.

Having said that, I was impressed by T5 as a building, and was looking forward to a real flight from there. But after today ....

[interpreter]

It sounds as if PIDGE is a typical senior member of Ferrovial enjoying the humiliation of a British major project. I do hope he is is not aircrew. I wouldn't wish to be on any flight deck with him.To be serious though the BBC news tonight suggested that the real cause of the problem was the absence of BA airside staff to unload aircraft and get the luggage into the halls. This does not explain the breakdown of the fast baggage drop system unless that was "locked out" by the unloading fiasco.Sounds like an Irish pub party - well lead by an Irish "wally":eek:

[Pidge]

Almost correct interpreter, I am just enjoying the humiliation of a British major airline, and yes I am aircrew..... ahhhhhhhhhh

[overstress]

Well there's another on the ignore list!

[infrequentflyer789]

No baggage check in!!!....now they are taking the :mad:.......

No, they are taking the $$$.

I suspect that the fact that the flight departed means they get out of all compensation obligations - because it wasn't cancelled, and you weren't denied boarding (since you could have boarded without baggage they'll probably claim you chose not to board).

If anyone can correct me and confirm that you can successfully claim denied boarding compensation if you are denied-boarding-with-baggage, then I'm happy to be proved wrong.

Reports are that BA are offering nothing (no hotels or assistance) other than refund or rebook on another date.

[beamender99]

To me the omens were there many months ago.
Repeated reports back from non airline SLFs that the signage was bad.
Hardly difficult to fix so that raised concerns about the "clever bits".

I volunteered for several of the trials a long time ago. I did not get selected for any. I called them saying that I could car share ( supporting their save the planet stance) with friends that had already been selected.
They told me the computer system used for the recruits was really a personel type system and not really very good its new task etc.
In the end I gave up on it. Cutting corners like that is not clever.
I did get an independant tour and just visiting the SLF areas left me with the impression they were believing their own PR speak and not listening to SLFs.

It is pretty basic to throw lots of bodies at a task like this and be happy to feed and water them even if they sit on their bums all day.

It is now 23:35. BBC is still repeating " We are expecting a statement from BA". The PR / press team must be out dining on the success or are they writing resignations speeches?
On silly me one does not fall on one's sword. One stays to ensure that all is sorted out cos one is the best man for the job.
I am so sadded to see a prawn like Kirkwood allowed near the press.
The press will not forget his double snub.

[DCS99]

When I first joined BA, there were stickers on doors in Speedbird House

"Heathrow must thrive, build Terminal 5"

That was - honestly - 21 years ago.

Oh dear.

But IMO the real test comes now. After a day of chaos, let's hope the problems have been analysed, baggage systems rebooted, contingency plans up and running so everything reaches normality before end of play Friday.

[Chris Scott]

Quote from Hand Solo:
...the A319s have the containerised cargo systems embodied but they have not been utilised to date.
[Unquote]

Thanks for that, but am surprised. Have they been retrofitted? They didn't have it when they arrived from Hamburg, starting in the late 1990s. But what you say certainly makes sense in the context of T5.

If they are only starting to use it now, in the pressured environment of a new terminal, I confidently predict a rash of tech delays caused by damage to A319 wing-flap boat-fairings...

[Hand Solo]

Yep they've always had the bits fitted Chris but the working parts were under a false floor. We had the first 319s at BHX and they all had the false floor fitted according to the people who knew these things.

[infrequentflyer789]

Found the following quotes from BA chief muppet whilst perusing the news on the chaos:


I'm absolutely delighted. I think it's great and it's going to get better.


I should :mad: hope so.


The opening has gone well and to have this working like this is by any standards an achievement. This is a hundred times better than anything else at Heathrow


:eek: -speechless-

[beamender99]

BBC still saying they are awaiting a promised BA statement
" We have been saying this for hours". 0005Z

Hello BA! anyone at home ?

[MuttleyJ]

And this is just the flights from T1. Wait til they add the T4 flights.

This shows the media and the public the true colours of BA management - incompetent, arrogant idiots who genuinely don't give a sh*t about their frontline employees or their customers.

It's time for Willie to f*ck up some other company. And he can take Kirkwood with him.

[kingdee]

Ryanair , i bet MOL is wetting himself tnt and his press dept are working hard .

[bermudatriangle]

british airways' management over the years has always been disastrous,but this current shambles beggars belief.to move into a terminal which is operationally unprepared in inexcuisable and the disgraceful performance of the operations director,kirkwood,who ran away from the press is unprecedented in any commercial presentation i have ever witnessed.once again the passengers and frontline staff have been let down by our national carrier,the pr disaster is on a monumental scale.i just hope those responsible for this fiasco are given the boot without any further delay.how much more can this company take.it really is about time that a chief executive with charisma and a real flair for our business takes the helm and leads this airline from the front with vision,reality and a degree of humility.all attributes missing from the current leadership team.

[CHINOOKER]

As a BA employee at the "back end",this whole episode sucks,but it just doesn't surprise either me or my colleages as this has been a disaster waiting to happen! The baggage handlers identified a few system glitches during the trials but as usual with BA management thier concerns were ignored,(we get paid to manage...you get paid to do as we say!!!), also it appears that only a week or so ago,a software upgrade was made to the baggage system,but no further trial deemed necessary to see if it worked ok.
From what we have heard today, the majority of the problems have arisen from something called "stack and shelve".....basically the system identifies transfer baggage and if the onward flight is over a certain time period away from the arrival one,then the baggage is sent to a "holding" area where it is stored until the computer says it is required for the onward flight!!
The trouble with this today has apparently centered around the computer totally forgetting everything it put into the holding area,so if anything moved from here,it was done manually.
God only knows what it's going to be like when longhaul start to move in en- masse over the coming days.....perhaps WW will have to get his own slot on news 24.........Maybe his "roumoured" move to become the CEO of one of the USAs big 3 will happen sooner than later!!

[RRAAMJET]

".........Maybe his "roumoured" move to become the CEO of one of the USAs big 3 will happen sooner than later!!"

Oh dear Lord...:eek:

We're perfectly awful on our own, thank you very much...and we see your 2-hour delays and raise you 2 (or more):}

[LGW Vulture]

Just had a text message from BA at 1.15am european time telling me my return flight from BSL to LHR tomorrow is dead - find another option!!! Wonderful for an Exec club member who has paid fully flex biz class fare at UK£710.00

Wonderful ...................:D

[Basil]

Just posted to note that some of the usual BA knockers have desisted from comment.
Not much point in adding to the ongoing adverse comment I suppose.
No group adversely criticises BA more than those of us who care about 'our' company. (Just as you care about 'your' company) We are jubilant when it succeeds and embarrassed when it fails. Management are very good at engendering company loyalty - when it suits (been through a couple of mergers where it didn't suit :*)
I worked for Cathay when the move to CLK took place. It was a MUCH bigger deal than the T5 move and initially did NOT go well and was castigated by the HK media.
I have not the faintest idea what went wrong at T5 but:
a) I hope 'lessons will be learnt' (as HMG say :yuk:).
b) The great British public learn to differentiate between BA and BAA.

Bas - just in from pub so pls be gentle :zzz:

[Mister Geezer]

I experienced T5 yesterday evening and I was looking forward to experiencing an new era in the British airline industry. I was greeted with utter chaos and pandemonium. I was so relieved that I was not in uniform since I had been operating that morning and I was off to visit family.

It was a very embarrassing and frustrating spectacle to watch and what was more embarrassing was that the check in concourse was littered with camera crews as well as journalists clutching notepads whilst chatting to passengers. It was clear that the Media were loving every minute of this debacle! I look forward to seeing how extensive the coverage is in the newspapers in the morning.

What I did find very sad was that the few BA staff that were working in the check in area, looked to be confused and bewildered by their new surroundings. The usual friendly and confident attitude that so many BA staff exude had disappeared yesterday. Pax (including me) were left stranded by groundstaff whilst we were waiting to find out what was happening to our bags that we were waiting to be taken off us after we had checked in. It was nothing short of an utter PR disaster for BA and I feel sorry for the groundstaff that looked that they had been abandoned and could not offer the level of customer service that they are so accustomed to offer! Very sad! :(

I had hold luggage and was flying domestic so I did not relish the thought of fighting for a hotel room so I walked off to Terminal 1. I was greeted by an oasis of tranquillity (nice change!:}) and I went on bmi instead which I thought was rather poignant ending to my encounter with T5 on its first day!!!

[Skipness One Echo]

With the eyes of the world watching, both BAA and BA have made us all look like bloody fools again. I'm embarrased and shocked. Laughing stocks the bloody lot of you, hang your useless heads in shame. How many holidays ruined? Again? Words are cheap and your actions have proven to be laughable. Heathrow East and Runway 3 my arse, you no longer deserve it.

[wiggy]

Many Moons ago one of our very Senior Managers told a group of us how happy and chuffed he was that T5 reduced the Staff headcount ( self service check in etc). He didn't give a stuff about the travelling publics need to interface with a human being, all he cared about was a reduction in the BA headcount and the associated reduction in cost...today we have seen the consequences of that mentality.

In the last few months those of us who work for BA have heard countless tales of T5 trials not working but of managers walking particpants through issues ( such as no bags being offloaded) in order to keep close to the timeline and "prove" that T5 was fit for purpose. After all, who would dare to be the first manager to tell their boss that, "err, boss, T5 won't work as planned unless we employ more people"?

And now we come to the CRM issue. Walsh and others have engendered a "don't ask, don't tell" mentality in BA managers..he (Walsh) doesn't want to know that the pilots/cabin crew/engineers/ etc are p****ed off, and he sure as hell doesn't want to hear that the T5 trials failed because of a lack of resources. So no one told him....what's the expression - credible deniability?

He, and the whole laughingly titled leadership team should go. Now.

[derekvader]

http://img338.imageshack.us/img338/1395/1664548bn0.jpg (http://imageshack.us) http://img338.imageshack.us/img338/3692/1664557jn5.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

"There's no such thing as bad publicity" --- apparently :}

BA still don't really seem to have announced what tomorrow's passengers should do. Their website says that people will be able to get refunds for cancelled flights, but flight-only refunds and no other announcements don't really help people heading off on holiday wanting to know what to pack, or to important meetings scheduled. I don't think BA know what to do.

[Basil]

Re wiggy's post,

It takes a very brave manager to tell his boss that his dearest gameplan will work only in his imagination.
Alex - The Telegraph (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/money/main.jhtml?xml=/money/2008/03/26/calex26.xml)

[aab]

Two words:

Silverjet. Luton.

[Max Tow]

I feel a little editing of BA's website front page might be in order before the dawn...

"At London Heathrow Terminal 5 we’ve created a natural, logical journey that’s so calm, you’ll flow through. It should only take ten minutes to get from check-in to departures *. Transferring and arriving are just as simple and calm. Spend the time you save enjoying the excellent range of shops, cafes and restaurants. Or simply relax and be wowed by the world class architecture"

and even better....

"Whenever you fly, with or without bags, check-in online"

Obviously whoever came up with the latter slogan was blessed with amazing foresight!

[pasoundman]

derekvader
I don't think BA know what to do.

Little doubt about that.

The whole think STINKS of utterly incompetent management (the current curse of the UK - I think I preferred the unions !). Don't for ONE SECOND expect anyone to offer to resign though, they'll be waiting for their bonuses.

One thing for sure .... if they don't get it fixed PDQ, they won't have an airline left to run. It's their BASE for heavens sake !

[pasoundman]

Hand Solo
Well according to CNN, BAA are saying all the baggage infrastructure is working correctly and it's BAs staffs inability to meet the operational demand that is causing the problem.

"inability to meet the operational demand" ?

Surely that's a MANAGEMENT failure to determine the level of demand and ensure they have enough adequately trained staff to deal with it ? Did they not have enough YEARS to work this one out ?

Actually, I KNOW it's a management failure. Either that or the management are calling their staff crap. I reckon I know who's more likely to be crap.

[pasoundman]

GobonaStick
Don't quite know why BA is attracting all the vitriol. It doesn't operate the baggage system, or the car park, or the security barriers, or unlock the doors of T5 in the morning surely?

True. As far as it goes. I hate to think what must have been wrong with the CAR PARKS to be a problem, but hey-ho it's Britain. We have truly unique ways of screwing up.

However it IS BA's responsibility to ensure that their supplier/sub-contractor (BAA) has things properly in hand.

Passing the buck simply isn't good enough.

I have little doubt PLENTY of BA staff KNEW it would be a fiasco. But BA management doesn't listen to the staff it seems. They live in their own secluded world.

[Sunfish]

There is a concept in Information Technology called "The Parallel Run". I don't think BA can have heard of it.

WHat it means is that you run the new system in parallel with the old system until you have assured yourself that the new system delivers what its supposed to.

Why the heck did BA switch a large chunk of its operations to a new and untested terminal with associated systems in one go?

Surely it would have been safer and far less disruptive, to have started with a few "real" flights and confirm that the wonderful systems worked as advertised, then gradually increase the load on T5 and reduce it elsewhere?

Oh of course! You need loads of staff to do it that way!

[pasoundman]

take-off
I'm not in favour of nationalistion, but surely somethings should be run by Govt agencies, may not be any better but at least you could find someone to blame.

I'm not really conceptually in favour of nationalisation either, but given how INCOMPETENT the 'private sector' has become, just about ANYTHING would be better.

Just read in another place ... a trip from London to Manchester by RAIL .... £300 ! Naturally he'll be going by car. Or even plane perhaps !

[pasoundman]

Parapunter
Just been chatting with my buddy who's BAA I.T.

Evidently he reckons there's nothing wrong with the baggage system per se, but there is an issue with training here and there - few guys causing big problems hitting the wrong button at the wrong time

Yes, but that is 100% predictable. No human is 100% accurate so the system should be designed to deal with that transparently and effectively. Not just 'keel over' FFS ! What kind of bunch of loonies were responsible for a non fault-tolerant system ?

but more pertinently, all the dry runs & tryouts are as nothing when compared with a big, networked multi node system gone live

And this is supposed to be some kind of new REVALATION ? It's ALWAYS been that way. Where the heck did these useless MORONS get their qualifications ?

[etrang]

There's a quote in the Guardian today from a baggage handler who says that because working conditions at T5 are so stressful at the moment, he's going to take a few days off sick. But I'm sure management are prepared for teething problems like this, no?

[Hobo]

SAME CIRCUS, JUST A DIFFERENT TENT.


I went through BNE Domestic at 10am on its first day in '84(?). Worked like clockwork. Also CDG on its first day (late 70s?). Even the French got it right.

Both managed with paper tickets and primitive computers.

[BEagle]

Oh dear, oh dear - another own goal for ba.....

Or BAA? Or both??

Whatever, the CEOs should be forced to resign over this ridiculous affair.

[Mr A Tis]

Thank God BA have pulled out of the regions & that we don't have to transit LHR. BA have lost all their regional punters who happily transit thro FRA, AMS & CDG. The Domestics to/from LHR chopped everytime there is a whiff of fear in the air.

[MH4AS]

My first post, and I can not believe it has to be this. :{

When I left work late on Weds I was so excited. 34 aircraft had been put in place and the equipment move was well under way. Thank you to everyone who helped that night. Even the bus journey back to the staff car park was a joy for once as we drove past and saw all the tails in place ready for the next day. I couldn't wait to get back into work. Christmas had come early and I had a new train set to play with.

Walked back into utter chaos and instead of being peacefully asleep now, I'm sitting here watching the news feeling throughly ashamed and miserably disappointed.

My heart goes out to all the staff, they have tried to do their best with very little or no training under extreme pressure. My thanks to all at the Base. Sorry for dumping so many aircraft at you again, at such short notice, again. But most of all my extreme sorrow goes out to all passengers.

I only hope that we can get this :mad: mess cleared up as quickly as possible, and that T5 will hopefully, one day be all that was promised and delivers all that you deserve.

[sanjosebaz]

Chief executive Willie Walsh said: "I am very sorry that the problems have meant that some of our customers did not experience the true potential of this amazing new building.Nice one, sir.

[stormin norman]

The Chairman of BA has been very noticable by his absence in all this.
Its him alone who has employed the top team and should be held accountable.
The guy Kirkwood was a complete arse during his interview.Just walking away without answering questions is unforgivable and downright rude.

[Walnut]

Having just looked at the 206 posts to date, I believe the real problem is lack of staff at the new terminal. I had not realized that BA still has an operation (smaller I agree) at Terminal 1, 3 & 4. Clearly there will still be staff there, and as I am sure BA has not recruited any more people then they have to be shared with T5.
So surely the way ahead is to get all flights into T5 as quickly as possible so all staff can be concentrated at T5. I do realize some a/c, 757s I believe, are not suitable for T5 which is probably why these a/c are being given to Open Skies.
However the other problem is those flights which are not at T5. Does the general public know which they are? I admit I am not really sure despite having more info than SLFs. T5 has been marketed as a seamless centre for all BA flts, clearly it is not, and the sooner this anomaly is resolved the better. Walsh should resign on the spot.

[FlightCosting]

So, as could have been predicted, the opening of T5 has been a disaster. The problem lies with the current ownership/management of BAA and a compliant BA. I remember when T1 was opened. Staff who where going to work there had no dry runs, we where just given a guided tour of the facilities a couple of days before hand and then we where expected to come in early on day one to get used to new facilities before the first passengers arrived. Problems with check-in equipment and baggage handling did occur but without long delays or cancellations. A call to BAA resulted in fairly quick response as they where interested in success as well.
There lies the difference between the old government owned BAA and today’s cash strapped, debt ridden Spanish owners of BAA who’s motto is ‘ We owe it to our shareholders so grab the cash and run’. The BA of today is also run by bean counters rather than aviation professionals who have been sidelined in the industry of today. Remember the story of the Honey wagon driver, cover in sh.. in the pub when asked if there was not a better job to be had, answered ‘What and leave aviation!’ Today he would say ’lead me to it!

[Vortechs Jenerator]

Willy Walsh doesn't have the tact or intelligence to go and fall on his sword somewhere over this.

[XX621]

Half the problem, me thinks, is that BA & BAA set themselves up for a PR own goal from the outset. By putting out statements ranting about how seamless and efficient the place will be from day one etc etc, they are effectively writing PR cheques that were always highly likely to bounce.


"Promise low, deliver high" basic proj mgt stuff.

Considering they know practically all of the variables ... i.e how many a/c, how many pax, how many bags etc...it really is amazing it appears to have gone so wrong.

They should try rolling out IT systems in the foreign exchange markets! (err, actually no they shouldn't).

[42psi]

I'd venture that the next few days will see each of the service partners "spinning" that somehow the other was the major problem.

My experience of new launches (routes or terminals) is that at start up you should go in mob handed - you just know the unexpected will happen.

You don't want the launch to go wrong - everyone will assume you've made your best effort - if it goes wrong you've set the pattern and proven you're hopeless. It'll take months if not years (if ever) to recover that reputation.


As for it being the baggage system or the folks operating it ... I can give you personal experience.

Airport: it's the airline/handling agent who don't have sufficient staff/training/equipment......

Airline/Handling Agent: the baggage system is sending stuff all over the place. We can't load the bags into the correct uld/bag truck 'cause that's 1/2 mile away at the correct chute. Eventually the system grinds to a halt as the "wrong" bags at the "wrong" place eventually mean you can't get at the chute to empty it.....

Airport: See, we told you so. If you had more staff at the chute it wouldn't stop the system.

Airline/Handling Agent: We had adequate staff, the sytem went wrong. (Note the word adequate - it's deliberate and means just enough - you need to see extra/plenty/additional etc actually stated)

Oh .. and the experts that run the baggage system will point out that it's self measuring systems tell them which bags go to the wrong place and it's less than x% ..... yep, it will tell them about the ones where it couldn't read the label .... not the one's where it misread the label, thought it got it right but sent it to the wrong place!!



As for making changes etc.... surely they reach a point in the planning/execution where they say ... right that bit's OK ... no further changes are allowed now or we can't be assured of this portion...... for better or worse this bit now stays as it is. Question then is asked ... as it stands is this section go/no-go. If the reply is no-go - the whole show stops.


Perhaps we have here a partial explanation of the dysfunction between airport/aviation management groups and the workforce (flight crew/ground staff).

On the whole those involved at the sharp end balance the need to get the job done against safety considerations .... eg. everyone is usually concious of the dangers of "get-home-itis".

The only focus and objective of the current management culture is "get-home-itis" at all costs.

The result is IR in turmoil and projects which fall apart from the start .... the management culture just can't get their heads around the concepts...

[Mr Mac]

Have not used Heathrow / BA for 9 months due to ongoing problems (late bags and or flights), very pleased to use Emirates, Lufthansa, Singapore through Manchester. BA please stop sending e-mails trying to get me to use T5 , you had your chance and you blew it with me some time ago, and now you have blown it very publicly on the world stage. What a complete fiasco.

[xraydice]

Lets get some real time input from the operational folks. both BAA & Imperial, to todays performance. The hands-on, grass roots day-to-day operational folks can only give us all (industry/SLF) the tru griff where the mega snags occurred.


yesterday, many of us felt like " removing uniform and mingle with crowd...." the suits blaming each other and the origininal screw up at startup, what annoys me is that neither BA or BAA has said ok we mucked up , and have left it to the PBI to sort it out , it appears that there was no contingency plan ( never thought the Titanic would sink either ) .
I am dreading going in today, maybe I'll follow the bag bouncers and have a sickie !
On the other hand we'll all turn up and get on sorting it out for our customers sake , our own pride.


Oh, finaly its a 24hour clock and z is GMT := bit late now though !

[Seloco]

Does BA's Airline Operator's Licence not require it to maintain an acceptable standard of service? Maybe the time has come to question whether it is in fact doing so? I would have thought that running flights with hand baggage only in order to avoid paying compensation hardly qualifies as acceptable.

[HZ123]

FIASCO @ 5 STARTS ON THE NIGHT OF THE 26TH WITH THE RUNWAY BEING CLOSED AND TURNED INTO A ROAD FOR THE EQUIPMENT TO BE DRIVEN ACROSS FROM 4 BY THE MOST DIRECT ROUTE. mANY OF THE mON -fRI STAFF ARE VOLUNTEERING.

I like several other BA staff on this thread apologise to our passengers. sadly some of us new what was going to happen.

[xraydice]

sadly some of us new what was going to happen

yep, a case of the management admiring the emporors new clothes whilst those on the ground knew better....

[pappabagge]

I was responsible for introducing the A319 for SWR in the Nordics in the late 1990s, based at GOT/ESGG. SWR had in the interests of commonality actively opted for the ULD version with the Dinky Toy AKH ULDs and the inevitable Machine From Hell - the Spanish (yes everything goes in very strange circles doesn't it?) designed "high"-loader which was expertly positioned by highly-trained Servisair plebs into the stbd wingbox on average once a week causing untold trouble by way of cancellations, investigations etc.

In the end the Spanish designer's tears were allayed (yes the Powers That Be actually summoned him to ESGG to witness first-hand the problems incurred) by the Investigator-In-Chief finding that were no intrinsic faults with the elements per se, but when brought together a different reality surfaced. A little more forethought, a little more training and a lot more common sense would have done wonders as prophylactic measures.

Remember your Total Quality Management courses? The 1-10-100 solution springs to mind.

Oh yes, and the Oslo experience was one for the books too. Years of planning for the overnight move from Fornebu to Gardemoen, and then the fog descended. Only problem was that not even Cat I was avbl as the ILS had not been certified as they normally didn't experience fog at that time of year (End of October on a valley flat in Norway - doh!), and no FBU to divert to. Fun & games oh yes. :(

[Donkey497]

Simple question:-

Why has there been no sign of a joint team involving BA, the architects, builders, IT & most importantly BAA as owners of T5, roving through the place firefighting the problems as they arose with enough people for them to call on as muscle for bigger problem?

It's worked on every commissioning job I've ever done myself and every one I've been involved with. It's just simply "walking the job". Get a team together and get into the habit of a regular walk-round as the job nears completion, ask the guys on the ground what the problems are & write them down as you find them- then if a problem takes more than two walk rounds to fix, kick some tail because it'll bite you badly if it gets left until start-up.

As the sole tenant of T5 tenant, BA should be raising hell with Ferrovial as BAA's parent, because at the end of the day, BAA [as the owners] of T5 should have project managed the move of whoever moved into T5, regardless of it being BA, Ryanair, Aeroflot or Cecil's Cessna Services that were moving.

They haven't appeared to carry out anything like the work needed for start-up and it's widely reckoned that a day's bad publicity take's a year's worth of advertising to allay. How long will it take & how much will it cost for BAA & BA to convince the travelling public that they can provide an "adequate" [See earlier post] level of service?

A final thought. I had the unfortunate experience of trying to fly EDI/LGW/IAH on March 10th, due to the London congestion because of the bad weather & BA's abysmal check-in & re-booking facilities in EDI a 13 hour journey took over 33 hours. How bad would T5 have been yesterday if there were more high winds, or other weather delays - and did anyone take this into consideration?

[SWBKCB]

BBC Radio 4 'Today' programme at 08:00 - "Terminal 5 - BA won't talk, so we are talking to Ryanair"

[d71146]

In times gone by in certain countries of the world the people at the top who are responsible for this mess would have committed Hari Kari over this as they would have been very ashamed of themselves.

[andyhargreaves]

I wonder how this will pan out today and tomorrow. GMTV just presenting some 'unbiased' reports in their usual way.

I've been able to check in online for BA1385 and BA1404 for tomorrow, so fingers crossed, but I'll be keeping an eye on my mobile phone for any news.

Fingers crossed!

[interpreter]

All you guys and girls working at T5 or using T5 please go to this link and add your comments about your experince yesterday. I am nothing to do with the BBC but the more accurate the information they get the better.


http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/7317909.stm

[skysod]

It's very very sad, but I think we've reached the stage where the vast majority of the travelling public, given the choice, would prefer any other carrier to BA.

I'm sure if asked, most people would rather fly Ryanair and get their luggage at the other end, than fly BA, get a free cup of tea, but be stranded bagless at destination.

To push back knowing that not a single passenger's bag is on board is inexcusable.

The least you should do is make a PA before departing to allow those who do not wish to travel without luggage to disembark and get their money back.

BA............the bagless airline!:}

[Sun-Ra]

It is so typical of BA, BAA. I am literally working my last 3 days for BA after ten years service. I was BA thru & thru and I just can't take any more of it. There was a time when you could tell someone you worked for BA and get a very positive response; those days are long gone. The Management system employed at BA is truly shocking; that is to say they are neither accountable for their errors or apologetic. Absolute idiots of the highest order....

[d71146]

I am very surprised that Ryanair are not yet turning this mess to their advantage
could get some good mileage out of all this.

[Lurking123]

So, how much confidence do we have in a third runway or indeed a new international airport?

[The Big Easy]

Agreed, there was a time the bearded wonder at Virgin and more recently mol would have pounced on this. In-fact I was looking forward to a bit of verbal sparing!

TBE.

[NWT]

There is no one reason for this fiasco....

BA obviously didn't train and let the staff become fully familiar with the terminal etc etc.

The BAA are a lot to blame as well. Lifts not working etc etc. Staff Car park fiasco has been going on weeks with hundreds of other terminal staff having to move to different car parks, which meant new car park barrier passes etc that didn't work...As to security check points for staff to get to work once they did manage to get to the terminal, well BAA excel l at being inept in this area. Passengers have suffered for years with security lines, and so have staff. We have to go through the same security checks as PAX every day (several times a day) so you would think that the BAA would have sufficient access points for staff....no chance. It regularly takes 40 minutes to get through the queue. Until the BAA actually decide to ruj an airport not shopping center there is no hope..

[HectorusRex]

Passengers fume in the chaos of Terminal 5's first day
Flights cancelled and baggage system collapses at BA's £4.3bn showpiece
• Dan Milmo, transport correspondent
• The Guardian,
• Friday March 28 2008
• Article history
• http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2008/mar/28/travelandtransport.theairlineindustry
About this article
This article appeared in the Guardian on Friday March 28 2008 on p2 of the Top stories section. It was last updated at 08:29 on March 28 2008.
It was 20 years in the planning, cost £4.3bn to build and its staff underwent six months' training before it opened.
But none of that could prevent Heathrow Terminal 5 from descending into chaos on its opening day yesterday after the baggage system collapsed.
Thousands of passengers had their travel plans disrupted and British Airways was forced to cancel at least 34 flights in and out of the terminal.
The prospects for today were little better as BA staff scrambled to clear an intimidating baggage backlog and work out exactly what had gone wrong.
The disastrous launch was a major embarrassment for both Heathrow owner BAA and British Airways. Travellers were restricted to carrying hand luggage and told that they would have to leave checked-in bags for collection at a later time, or else rebook their flights. Delays at luggage carousels proliferated as queues lengthened to depressing proportions in the departure hall.
The situation worsened in the afternoon as the entire baggage handling operation ground to a halt under an overwhelming volume of backed-up luggage, triggering angry scenes at BA desks as passengers swamped staff with complaints.
Just hours after BA's chief executive, Willie Walsh, had toured the terminal promising a new era for Heathrow travel, the airline was forced to apologise once again for farcical conditions at Britain's biggest and busiest airport.
"British Airways flights from Heathrow Terminal 5 will depart with hand baggage only due to problems associated with processing customers' baggage," said the airline in a statement. "British Airways apologises to customers for the problems during Terminal 5's first day of operations following one of the most complex and largest airport moves in history." BA said customers not yet checked-in for travel would receive a refund or could rebook.
A series of factors were behind yesterday's meltdown:
• Baggage handlers' IDs were not recognised by computers and they were not able to log on to the handling system, resulting in the three flights taking off without bags
• The handlers also could not get where they were supposed to go because they could not get into the car parks or get security clearance
• Amid confusion over the layout of the new terminal, bag handling teams were unable to make good the delays, which left passengers in arrivals while their bags waited on planes
• Problems were exacerbated by a lack of the baggage storage bins that are loaded on to planes. Carousels loading luggage also broke down
• By the afternoon, the already crammed system became overloaded and a ban on checking-in luggage was issued
• Delays in loading and unloading planes led to delays in departures and arrivals, forcing BA to cancel 34 flights to ensure that its jets start in the right positions to run a normal timetable today
BA blamed the calamity on "teething problems", but found little sympathy from many of the 40,000 people who passed through T5 yesterday.
Kate Adamson, 39, travelling from Frankfurt with her daughter Olivia, five, gave up on her luggage after waiting more than an hour-and-a-half in the morning. Adamson, who was visiting her parents in Maidenhead, Berkshire, said: "I am furious. We had a 50-minute flight from Frankfurt and then we had a 90-minute wait. The luggage system seemed to have packed up completely. Staff have been really surly and there has been no announcement. One BA woman in there was saying there was a technical problem. I've given up. They can send my bags on."
Producer Sir George Martin, famous for his work with the Beatles, was among those caught up in the difficulties. He said: "When I came here I was very excited about the new terminal, but not now."
Matt Duffy was stuck on a flight arriving into Terminal 5 from Glasgow for more than an hour - and then when he was transported to the terminal, the wheelchair user was met by a kerb. "I couldn't even get into the building without getting up a step," he said. "It is totally unbelievable as far as I am concerned."
BA has exclusive use of Terminal 5, which was designed by Lord Rogers and opened by the Queen earlier this month.
The 34 cancelled flights represented almost 10% of the total due to fly in and out of the terminal yesterday, but BA was helped by the fact that the terminal will operate far below its full capacity of 70,000 passengers until next month, when it hopes to have all glitches ironed out. In the meantime, hundreds of daily BA flights will continue to operate from Heathrow's terminals 1 and 4, which reported no serious problems yesterday.
BA had promised that the new system would halve the number of bag delays and losses at the airline, which, at 26.5 bags for every 1,000 passengers, is the worst of any major European carrier.

[Vortechs Jenerator]

Perhaps they should do away with baggage systems and handlers altogether.

I'd rather turn up another hour earlier, weigh in and put my own bag in a container then collect it at the end:E

Works for National Express!

[groundhand]

It's time for the BAA to boot BA out of LHR.

Over the last few years of BA's pathetic performance they have consistently blamed the airport. While they have been doing this other companies have maintained their services and their performance even using the older terminal facilities that BA won't use.

BA needs, and has needed for too long to document, a complete overhaul to get management AND workers aligned with today's aviation industry.

There was a very good analagy of a supermarket checkout and the T5 baggage system. This was spot on. System fail when the bags are not removed and back-up; it happens at every airport if the operator does not clear the baggage systems. Not having enough ULD's is a management AND worker failure - too many people blaming too many others for not doing anything.

The BAA should issue notice to BA to remove itself from LHR terminals and let the companies that can handle volume aviation do their work for them. If it had not been for TUPE and the current 60's uinion practices I believe this would have already happened and T5 would have opened without the high level of damaging publicity. Let BA concentrate on flying aircraft, it is about all that they still have any reputation left for and they could go to FR or EZY to learn a thing or two about how to improve that side of their business.

BA Bad Again - pathetic, brought shame on the UK - AGAIN.

[Widger]

Someone raised the issue of the bearded one. At least he would not have run away from the press and he would probably have been seen in his best jumper loading bags himself. As an outsider, I am astounded at the very poor PR image BA and BAA are presenting over this. It comes across as complete arrogance.

[ACCP]

But where's Willie?

Where's anyone from BA?

[Southernboy]

There's a precedent here. A regional I once worked for was BA owned. In came a new whizz kid & cut 'till the airline was on it's knees. When there were riots in the terminal he hid in his office & let the front line staff take the c**p - it was with some amusement that last night I switched on the telly, and lo, there he was doing a startled rabbit impression with a lame and forced apology.

No sign of him or anyone else since. It says it all sadly but where are BAA too? They own it.

[homesick rae]

For the record our company had a meeting arranged with BA 3 weeks ago with a view to supplying them with baggage/ramp/check-in operatives.

The lady in question did not even turn up for the meeting and refuses to return calls or emails.

Hmmm.....

Cheers

HR

[MrSoft]

As pax my feeling is I'm proud of the boys and girls on the ground who did their best to mop up this disaster.

Disgusted with the ineptness of BA senior management, from WW to that plank Kirkwood.

What irks me about Kirkwood, is his useless "gate script" apology on TV, 'sincerely regret any inconvenience caused' etc. But there was nothing remotely sincere in the way he said it. He sounded like a provincial gate rep announcing the 4th Flybe cancellation today. One of the things I LOVE about BA c.c. is they manage to make sincere, adult announcements to pax, and talk honestly, instead of the junk-script-by-numbers everyone else does. Obviously beyond the capability of management though. Then, for Kirkplank to turn on his heels and flee, well :yuk: words fail me.


Chief executive Willie Walsh said: "I am very sorry that the problems have meant that some of our customers did not experience the true potential of this amazing new building"


As a marketing pro this literally disgusts me. Walsh actually still seems to be trying to manipulate language, to put a positive spin on it. As if that is either possible here, or appropriate, when loyal BA staffers came in unpaid to sort out the s**t :ugh: Exactly how far removed from reality is the BA mgt???????????

[Capt.KAOS]

As a comfort, Chek Lap Kok (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/260273.stm) had the same opening problems. Look how it operates now.

[newjourno]

WW about to talk to press in T5, apparently. Probably live on News24 and Sky News, I'd imagine.

Pity he's about twenty-two hours too late.

[Pizza Cutter]

Did no-one in WaterWorld see this coming.... ?


We have had our ID's "updated" for T5 for several months now, but it was only in recent weeks that we were taken over for a "health and safety" tour to find that some ID's did not function with the BA door security locks - we have as yet to ascertain if they actually work at the HAL security swipe machines ! :ugh:

Of course, doing shift work we cannot all get our ID's renewed (without giving too much away, we have to get the actual card from HAL and then get all the "extras" added to it by BA) and of course the security offices don't work at night, on weekends or on a bank holiday ! :ugh:

Most of us are changing carparks and again have been given a new swipe card to gain access, but as yet have not had a chance to check it actually works ! :ugh:

. . . and don't get me started on the T5 accomodation that we have been given ... !

[andyhargreaves]

Willie Walsh on BBC News 24 now.

[newjourno]

WW on News24 now. Big bags under his eyes.

[ACCP]

I say, why don't we put Robert Mugabe in charge of BA?
He might do a better job.

[slip and turn]

Was Walshy really ever a pilot? He seems surprised that this disaster occurred after a number of factors which individually might not have added up to much ... oh right, that hasn't happened before then, has it? :rolleyes:

[Manxman11]

"Thank God BA have pulled out of the regions & that we don't have to transit LHR. BA have lost all their regional punters who happily transit thro FRA, AMS & CDG. The Domestics to/from LHR chopped everytime there is a whiff of fear in the air."

Couldn't agree more. I was a BA customer for 30 years and when they retrenched to become London Airways I cut up my exec club card, sent them the bits and now use Manchester (which in its current state is a disaster zone as well!) to connect through to decent airports like FRA, AMS and CDG. I'd sooner walk than use that glorified shopping mall called LHR.

[PGA]

Well so far nothing about T5 has been a real suprise.

It's just as much of a shambles as most other things in this country, roads, trains etc etc etc.....

[newjourno]

WW - Not BA's finest hour, buck stops with him, proud of staff, determined to make it work.

On Sky News now - having emails put to him.

[slingsby]

I watched, I waited, and I was right. I've had several discussions with one of the team planning and testing the baggage systems in T5, primarily because I am the godfather to his daughter. For months, he had been saying it won't work, too much reliance on a new and untried system, too many unresolved problems and issues. BA workers not knowing where to go, when to take full ULDs out to an aircraft, not knowing where to park, where to wait etc. It was a disaster waiting to happen.

And Guess what, this isn't the biggest part of the "terminal move" plan, the 30th April should see all of the T4 long-haul ops come over to T5. I foresee and predict many months of misery for BA and BAA, let alone the poor passengers who are expected to put up with sub-standard services.

Shortage of BAA staff, shortage of Immigration staff, both foreseen because they are running at normal staffing levels for FOUR terminals not FIVE. The staffing levels apparently running at 30% below required levels. Watch the other terminals start to feel the pinch as BAA bleed expereinced staff from existing areas to feed T5.

BAA got rid of their previous CEO before he had to fall on his sword, its about time some heads of departments came out into the terminal to hear their customers comments, both passengers and the airlines. I was rather amused to watch BA managers running for cover, telling their staff not to use the terminal area or check-in to leave work. I'm sorry but it would go 110% to foster better customer services if the leaders led from the front instead of hiding in their boardrooms.

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

<<when they retrenched to become London Airways >>

"London Airways" used to be the radio callsign for the ATC system serving southern UK. Let not anybody confuse an organisation staffed by real professionals, who did a fantastic job, with the Fred Karno Army outfit currently in the news!

[two green one prayer]

More shops than Lakeside. Aeroplanes? Dunno, somewhere over there I fink. Luggage? Yeah, sell you a suitcase. Blimey,you're looking for your suitcase? Come back when you get hungry, we sell food too.

Pax still use this dump. Why?

[42psi]

Most of us are changing carparks and again have been given a new swipe card to gain access, but as yet have not had a chance to check it actually works ! :ugh:

Maybe they ought to look at how other places manage to use the ID card as the swipe card for the staff car park .... saves money too!!

Then all a change of car park needs is for someone to change the parking entitement on the computer...... then again ..

[TheBagMan]

I left BA at the end of the T5 design phase, and YES - we saw this coming. Concerns, requests, pleas, begging, all to no avail. The on time opening meant that training times were cut even in 2003. I'm amazed that security passes, etc, were not tested and working 6 months ago - that would have been easy.
My interest now is whether this is a bloody nose for Willie from the unions or sheer incompetance from the BA management.
I'm so pleased to watch this from the outside and so sorry for the staff who hoped for a beautiful new working environment and have to deal with this mess. There was only 1 chance and it was blown away.

[slip and turn]

But are you suggesting NATS management is better than this we see from BAA and BA, Heathrow Director? I am not convinced. Once upon a time, yes, but not today I think. Maybe at NATS you are recalling the quality of the controllers, just as at BA we are currently today left with perhaps just the individual pilots left carrying 'the standard'?

Are we sure these people can maintain it alone until the support structures are fixed?

[Widger]

Slip and turn.....what is your beef with NATS? Did you not notice that TC were moved in its entirety, to Swanwick earlier this year with barely a hiccup?

[Bus429]

BBC News pointed out that KUL, SIA and DEN all had problems when they opened new airports.

I accept that there will always be glitches with anything new - these things happen and can be forgiven if staff had been trained, infrastructure tested fully and BLOODY BA and BAA "management" had the balls to admit the cock-up. The hackneyed excuses about "complex issues", "the first day" etc won't wash.

National disgrace :ugh:

High time that government nationalised BAA temporarily (a la Northern rock) and parachuted in a professsional management team from Schipol, Changi or wherever. Anything is better than the "Tesco" mentality managers currently "running" BAA.

[Evanelpus]

Watching GMTV this morning and was dismayed to be British.

Not because of the fiasco that was unfolding at T5 but at a report that a uniformed BA female worker who stopped for petrol was both virbally and physically abused by people (read scum) affected by the debacle that is T5.

WTF is going on in this country, it's bad enough we can't organise the proverbial but now there are idiots resorting to this.

Please, play nicely.

[slip and turn]

Well Widger, had there been an operations hiccup in the Air Traffic Control operation when it moved, there might have been smoking holes in the ground methinks. That notion concentrates even a poor management's mind.

Talking of Swanwick, how late and how much over budget was it, in the end - and what's that internal Swanwick squabbling all about that's spilled on to the ATC Issues board?

All these operations have been parasited for immediate profit, of course, one way or another. The managers and staff are pawns, the passengers are mere throughput. The operations themselves are just vehicles to the real people profiting, and I fear that to them it doesn't actually make much difference what state the vehicle is in after they jump out of it...