Chaos at Terminal 5

[Tigs2]

I live 1/2 a mile from Richard Branson, and I just turned the TV down because I am sure I can hear him laughing his Testiculars off.:}

[BAengineering]

It just gets worse;

BA loses 15,000 bags at Terminal 5 (http://ukpress.google.com/article/ALeqM5jctHo5GEA-k7o5ZPJcNimRqf1UCg)

[Tigs2]

One technical support specialist paid to give customers advice on the floor of T5 revealed: "There are 16 lifts and only one is working - how can you have an international airport like that? If I was to blame anyone I would blame BAA, they are in charge of the lifts, trolleys and phones.



:eek::eek::eek:

[Hand Solo]

Eh?? They:

(1) contracted with a dodgy outfit in the first place

(2) didn't have a Plan B for when the dodgy outfit went titsup.

Perfectly reasonable to do business with a cheap subcontractor, but the clever trick and cunning plan is to do a risk analysis and have something in place ready for when the risk comes true. Yes that costs, but you pay for it out of the money you've saved by contracting with a cheapo outfit in the first place.

This isn't IT buddy, this is the real world! The 'dodgy outfit' was BA's own catering division, sold off to a private enterprise with a ten year catering contract as part of the deal, the only way anybody would take on such a risk. The problems started when GG was taken over by private equity firm Texas Pacific who wanted a better return on their investment from the one-handed washer-uppers. As for risk analysis and subcontracting, would you like to tell us how many catering suppliers there are at LHR, how many would be able to indefinitely keep sufficient spare capacity to cover a loss of production at one of the other plants and how much that would cost on an ongoing basis? Go on, give us a clue how much you think keeping a massive production line and all it's staff on standby for ten years just in case would cost.

[Bill Bones]

Amazed to see on Monarch Airlines that the current customer services director crows in his profile

" ***** had spent 11 years with British Airways where he held a range of senior commercial management positions covering areas such as in-flight product development , shorthaul brand management and most recently leading the development of the customer experience for Heathrow's Terminal 5."

guess he got out just in time. I Wonder what his new bosses think of their appointment !

http://www.flymonarch.com/cnt/about/corporate/keypersonnel.asp

[aviate1138]

Spitoon said....

"The multi coloured tailfins
There must be something wrong with me. Whilst there's no doubt that the flag looks good, I rather liked some of the World designs. And the rest of the aircraft maintained the brand - something that, today, some people in BA might wish could fade away!"

Aviate says....
What an unmitigated disaster and a BA PC obsequiosity which removed in a stroke the Company Identity. With those World tails they looked like 3rd World airlines. And I bet it cost a fortune! Don't expect any Management lost their bonuses though?

[sinsin]

Sure, by all means blame Willy Walsh, but where was his "army" of managers ?
Very disapointing that all did not work harder to make the opening a success.
I note that the recent opening of T3 at Changi was flawless.
The Singaporeans make the UK look like an African country.
Where is the pride of a once great nation gone ?

Well ????

[southern duel]

Couple of interesting points regarding T5 from an Airside Ops/ATC point of view.

The actual move overnight of the 26th went well and it was all tied up by 03:45 although BA couldnt find alot of their kit and didnt know exactly where to put it.

The only chaos on the airfield on Thusday was the fact the TRM's were not puting on the parking Aids for aircraft because they had to finish paperwork of the departing flight. I belive up to 70 aircraft were marshalled by Airfield Ops on Thursday alone.

The statement below is from the ATC forum which just about some up BA's performance in the last couple of years

it was the smoothest, most trouble free day I've ever had as an LHR controller.

T5 was a shambles but the rest of the airfield worked like a dream without BA cocking it all up for other airlines. With the exception of T4 LH, they are now all in one place to delay each other without unfairly penalising other T1/T3 or T4 operators.

I seem to remember the sup' saying that BMI achieved 100% punctuality in T1 for the first time ever....I wonder what stopped them before

and one last quote heard on ground from a BA pilot
Same Old Picnic, Different Tent !!!

[Tigs2]

Aviate
Apparently it cost about £58 Million to do the tails (and that did not include the cost of getting rid of them).

[Skipness One Echo]

Perhaps the truth is that this is really a massive opportunity for bmi to show us what they can do, especially as they will be feeding the United operation under the same roof soon.
And seeing that the rest of the operation at Terminals 1-4 seems to be working as damn near clockwork as Heathrow ever will perhaps BAA was not quite the problem we thought. Hey Willy Willy Silly Billy.......

[pasoundman]

DarkStar
Re: The baggage mountain at T5. Latest rumour is that it's become so unmanagable that it's become cheaper to 'lose' the bags and pay minimum compensation rather than re-unite pax/bags. This apparently happened last summer where bags were 'flown' to various European points for 'disposal'.

That's theft isn't it ?

Would love to see them do that and see WW and the board in court for it.

[pasoundman]

southern duel
The actual move overnight of the 26th went well and it was all tied up by 03:45 although BA couldnt find a lot of their kit and didnt know exactly where to put it.

In what way does "BA couldnt find a lot of their kit" tally with "The actual move overnight of the 26th went well" ?

'Went well' as in pieces of paper were able to be signed off maybe ?

It's precisely the kind of attitude that says it went well, when kit goes missing that's the reason for this whole monstrous cock-up ! No-one in a senior position in BA takes responsibility for problems any more. Indeed they simply seem to deal with by denying that any problems exist.

[lexoncd]

Great image of Garreth Kirkwood running from the media with his tieless PR wunderkind closing the doors on the pursuing media....

Notice how Willie ducked the question on his continued role?

Check out Gareths share dealings with his share options.....Musn't have much faith by disposing of them pretty quickly.

Now if its true the media are banned from T5 then I hope the media take appropriate action when Willie and his PR chums ask the over to cover a good story......

Don't blame the messengers this time guys. You invited them there for the HKG arrival and were pretty happy at first.

As for EU rules on compensation...pay up boys...don't make it worse and use excuses that will be thrown out in any claim....Bite the bullet and simply refund the lot....

[BAengineering]

Did anyone see that other x BA prat Jamie Bowden on the BBC, giving opinion which was very 'moderated' to say the least with regard to BA performance on the day.

You just have to check out his website, hubristic (my new fav word) if you ever did see. A crowing. cockrelling BA Manger that actually states the following in his biography;

Jamie Bowden did not go to a fancy public school, doesn’t have an A level to his name and has only attended University on one occasion…and that was to see The Clash

And that folks is something to be proud of!!! Typical BA manager, jobs for the boys. Oh his website is http://jamiebowden.co.uk/biog.htm

He also IMHO looked like a tramp on the TV, Jamie instead of employing your brother to answer the phone (another BA manager trait, keep it in the family) whay not employ someone to sort your wardrobe, you looked IMHO like sh1t. Oh whilst I'm sure you need the work and 'upgrades' from your former employer, the sucking up really was too obvious. A little like Willie telling the world, everything was going well!!!

[southern duel]

Pasoundman

What i was implying was it went well from a Airside Ops BAA/HAL with lots of planning and extra staff on duty ensuring we delivered our side of the move. Not so well from a BA perspective with lack of planning etc and the staff not knowing what equipment had to be moved and what equipment was needed for the flights out of T4

[BAengineering]

WW has been quoted as stating the following;

"We have got a long time in T5. We will make this great building work."

The word WORK being used loosely in the same context many BA staff would state;

'I work for British Airways'

I know I shouldn;t laugh at my own jokes but in times of disaster, humour is the only route to avoid sanity.

[vanHorck]

So the best way to get Willy and team off the job and force the shareholders/board of supervision to attract real managers is through the pocket..... Stop flying BA whenever you can (there are multiple alternatives these days).

This means collectively starting such a drive here (!) as well as in everybody s circle of friends/business relations. Start sending mails around to all the secretaries you know not to book BA flights if things can be avoided...

Even a 10% drop i ticket sales from T5-Day0 sustained for 3 months would force BA on her knees.

I feel sorry for those at BA who did try to make it work. Those people deserve our respect!

I also hope the union rats who sabotaged will loose their job and rot away in the dole. About time those people too understood BA only exists by the grace of the customers. Bad service or dis-interest? You don't belong in an airline!

But I sure hope that management goes. Especially for the benefit of those who tried to make T5 work and must have had some of the worst working days of their lives...

[BAengineering]

Full verse here - courtesy of The Times (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/opinion/main.jhtml?xml=/opinion/2008/03/29/do2904.xml)

'"We wish to apologise for major delays
But would further remind you the fault is BAA's."
"BA BAA black sheep, have you any wool?"
"Yes sir, no sir, two bags full!
One for my master and one for my dame -
To pull over their eyes while we soft-soap them again!"

[pasoundman]

southern duel
Pasoundman, What i was implying was it went well from a Airside Ops BAA/HAL with lots of planning and extra staff on duty ensuring we delivered our side of the move. Not so well from a BA perspective with lack of planning etc and the staff not knowing what equipment had to be moved and what equipment was needed for the flights out of T4.

Ok, I follow you now. So basically you're saying BA are a bunch of clueless twats too.

[G-BPED]

Cancellations are already appearing for Monday 31st.

Just checked my flight to Munich on BA950 @ 09:10 shows as cancelled.

Needless to say I have just called my travel department which fortunately has 24/7 support and got switched to LH from T2.

Bye Bye BA

[BAengineering]

Van Horeck, pray tell what Union Rattus do you speak off??? that sabotaged the best efforts of British Airways in destroying a nations gateway?

Also I find it confusing that you agree and slate the BA management, yet hold the Unions which are only defending their members from the onslaught of the managerial incompetence ongoing at BA. Please, as with all posters side with one or th'other.

[Bill Harzia]

There are perhaps far wider reaching implications to the shambles that BA have shown the rest of the world over the opening of T5. The Top Brass of many of the ONEWORLD partners are far from pleased as are their passengers. Look to China, and the massive terminals at PEK and PVG, there are and will not be any problems on the scale of T5. I am lead to believe that it is quicker to flight connect to Gatwick than to transfer to T123. LHR East due to open in summer 2012, welcome to Third World Britain.

[pasoundman]

vanHorck
I also hope the union rats who sabotaged will loose their job and rot away in the dole.

I don't see anyone blaming the unions at all. In fact the unions tried to warn BA management it wasn't ready.

The sabotage was entirely down to hopelessly incompetent planning and THAT is down to a massively incompetent and out-of-touch management, with the very worst example at the top.

You're not a KLM manager are you by any chance ?

[Hand Solo]

I am lead to believe that it is quicker to flight connect to Gatwick than to transfer to T123.

You are lead very wrongly!!!!

[vanHorck]

No, i may be Dutch but i dont work for KLM.

I m referring to the statements that the staff were late arriving at their work on day one (not the subsequent signing in problems).

I am also talking about attitude that i saw too often at Heathrow and which I find irritating..... thinking more about their own rules and less about the people who pay the bills.

In my view like everywhere there are those staff members who try hard to make things a success and those who try to ride the wave only concerned about their own comfort.

But we all agree the management is the principal culprit here and i hope they are dealt with as a matter of priority. BA's shares were down 3% already I heard on the news just now, so I m sure the shareholders will start to act soon

[Tigs2]

I have just come back from the Far East and have only really just caught up with the story and all the interviews on the web. I cannot understand the ineptitude of some staff. Whoever came up with the idea of giving out a letter with a maximum hotel fee of £100 wants stringing up. That letter will cost BA £5000 per passenger.

The decision to ban the BBC and Sky from T5 will bite harder than anything. I hope the news stations really do behave responsibly now and refuse to attend any Press/News Conferences, that WW/BA may call in an effort to put BA or indeed BAA in a positive light. You cannot choose the publicity you get. I find this decision more shocking than anything else. One may expect it in China, Russia, Zimbabwe etc (No disrespect to any citizens from there), but banning of media in the UK!! I think the papers will have a field day over the next week.


edited to add, just heard on Sky, the two places that they are banned from entering are Zimbabwe and T5:}:}:D:D

[pasoundman]

vanHorck
No, i may be Dutch but i dont work for KLM.

I m referring to the statements that the staff were late arriving at their work on day one (not the subsequent signing in problems).

It seems that some were late in part because no-one had thought to organise adequate car parking ! That's a management failure again. Nor had they been properly familiarised with the terminal layout, another management failure.


I am also talking about attitude that i saw too often at Heathrow and which I find irritating..... thinking more about their own rules and less about the people who pay the bills.

Which rules are these ? And what kind of irritating behaviour did you see ?


In my view like everywhere there are those staff members who try hard to make things a success and those who try to ride the wave only concerned about their own comfort.

There's relatively little of the second type these days I hope. A couple of decades ago for sure.


But we all agree the management is the principal culprit here and i hope they are dealt with as a matter of priority. BA's shares were down 3% already I heard on the news just now, so I m sure the shareholders will start to act soon

And I dare say the bulk of shares are held by 'financial institutions' whose own management often has exactly the same culture as BA's ! They probably actually admire WW for trying to do things on the cheap.

[pasoundman]

Tigs2
I have just come back from the Far East and have only really just caught up with the story and all the interviews on the web. I cannot understand the ineptitude of some staff. Whoever came up with the idea of giving out a letter with a maximum hotel fee of £100 wants stringing up. That letter will cost BA £5000 per passenger.

What the heck has that got to do with the STAFF ? It's the useless MANAGEMENT that takes those desision, in this case it seems to ignore their legal obligations.

Just another example of flat-out incomptence and ignorance from WW and his crew of management morons.

[chris weston]

I think it's a deeply rooted and cultural thing with BA's management.

Their culture, amongst many other things, says "…….what's the cheapest way we can do this, period?" instead of "…….what's the cheapest way we can do this that works properly?" Minimise costs by all means but do the job properly first.

You can bet your sweet life that there will have been PowerPoint presentations ad nauseum on costed options and scenarios for the opening of T5 by the suits with MBA's. I further bet that a phased introduction process would superficially have cost more. Not any more:{!

But ………. bringing BA to its knees would also hurt an awful lot of innocent boys and girls at LHR without necessarily applying mole grips to the goolies of the custodians of the culture I so much despise.

CW

[BAengineering]

http://media.corporate-ir.net/media_files/irol/69/69499/images/Willie_Walsh.jpg
Willie Walsh (http://www.bashares.com/phoenix.zhtml?c=69499&p=irol-govBio&ID=142973)
Chief Executive
Willie Out as accepted blame and is sitting ontop of the piling steaming heap he calls his leadership team. Oh for those that think WW has turned things round finacially without hurting the airline. It doesn't take a genius or business guru to issue the following instruction, 'cut your management by 1/3'. What happens then is the best 1/3 leave with a nice handshake and find a better job leaving the hubris lot behind, all steam and no go.
http://media.corporate-ir.net/media_files/irol/global_images/spacer.gifhttp://media.corporate-ir.net/media_files/irol/69/69499/images/williams.gif
Keith Williams (http://www.bashares.com/phoenix.zhtml?c=69499&p=irol-govBio&ID=145730)
Chief Financial Officer
Penny pinching bean counter - Has got to go. Only took over after the last financial bod John Rishton had his coller felt by the US Feds...a little bit of price fixing. Well come on, you need somebody to do the adding up, I mean poor Martin George only has eight fingers and two of them were always up his ass.
http://media.corporate-ir.net/media_files/irol/global_images/spacer.gifhttp://media.corporate-ir.net/media_files/irol/69/69499/images/boylenew.jpg
Robert Boyle (http://www.bashares.com/phoenix.zhtml?c=69499&p=irol-govBio&ID=120635)
Commercial Director
Recent BA commercials are ok, lets keep him. We like the cloudy dolphin thing
http://media.corporate-ir.net/media_files/irol/global_images/spacer.gifhttp://media.corporate-ir.net/media_files/irol/69/69499/images/cobynew.jpg
Paul Coby (http://www.bashares.com/phoenix.zhtml?c=69499&p=irol-govBio&ID=87311)
Chief Information Officer
Chief no F'in Information officer, got to go!
http://media.corporate-ir.net/media_files/irol/global_images/spacer.gifhttp://media.corporate-ir.net/media_files/irol/69/69499/images/copeland.jpg
Garry Copeland (http://www.bashares.com/phoenix.zhtml?c=69499&p=irol-govBio&ID=157424)
Director of Engineering
Copeland, the engineering problems are still yet to surface, but they are there. See you Gary you gotta go. Cehck out www.airmech.co.uk (http://www.airmech.co.uk) for details
http://media.corporate-ir.net/media_files/irol/global_images/spacer.gifhttp://media.corporate-ir.net/media_files/irol/global_images/spacer.gifhttp://media.corporate-ir.net/media_files/irol/69/69499/images/kirkwood.gif
Gareth Kirkwood (http://www.bashares.com/phoenix.zhtml?c=69499&p=irol-govBio&ID=157604) aka Gareth Berkwood the BA runner
Director of Operations
Keep him for novelty value, he is without doubt the funniest thing I have seen for sometime. A quick march that could come straight from Monty Python
http://media.corporate-ir.net/media_files/irol/global_images/spacer.gifhttp://media.corporate-ir.net/media_files/irol/69/69499/images/David_Noyes2.jpg
David Noyes (http://www.bashares.com/phoenix.zhtml?c=69499&p=irol-govBio&ID=174414)
Director of Customer Services
What customer service? irrespective of Bollock thursday he has to go. Ba customers are leaving in droves.

Tony McCarthy (http://www.bashares.com/phoenix.zhtml?c=69499&p=irol-govBio&ID=174415)
Director People & Organisational Effectiveness
to$$er from RoyalMail, they didn;t want him, nor do we, letters! I mean laters Tony. Typical Union buster type, probably brought in specially to deal with our pilots. He hasn;t a hope in hell so may as well depart gracefully.
Roger Maynard (http://www.bashares.com/phoenix.zhtml?c=69499&p=irol-govBio&ID=146337)
Director of Investments & Alliances
Keep him, he may be valuable in coming months
http://media.corporate-ir.net/media_files/irol/global_images/spacer.gifRobert Webb QC (http://www.bashares.com/phoenix.zhtml?c=69499&p=irol-govBio&ID=87304)
General Counsel
Shrewd man, keep him onside. Very funny when drunk.......but I didn't say that, heard it 3rd hand or he may sue me!

[DespairingTraveller]

What unplanned expenses? He said he is travelling in three days time.

I wasn't aware that BA were liable to pay compensation to people that haven't even travelled!!

Indeed, I haven't yet travelled. But they wouldn't have paid anything useful to me if I had, anyway. This is an important trip for me: I could lose a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity if the foul-ups continue. The ticket cost, a free meal and some accomodation couldn't replace that.

I don't want to wait and worry about my whole trip falling around my ears, so I've now booked onto BMI while I can still get a seat. Definitely an unplanned expense, but no chance of getting that from BA.

[ChristiaanJ]

My advice to people that HAVE to get to somewhere near to LHR....
Take a flight to STN and use the National Express bus to LHR.
Been there, done that.
And yes, you will have to wheel your own suitcase to the bus. But at least you will have your suitcase....

And no, I don't have any NatExpress shares. More's the pity.

CJ

[Tigs2]

Pasoundman

keep your pants on for god sake. I was mearly using the term staff as in 'employees of a company' whether management or Mrs Miggins the cleaner. I don't think for one minute that those decisions were taken by the lower pay grades. Jeeez!:ugh::ugh:

[beamender99]

BA dirty tricks against Branson
Errrrrr, how many years ago? Not that many.


The usual response applies. "Do not believe all you read in the press!"
BA did not present the results of their investigations to a court.
I spent a months investigating what went on.
A fair amount of rubbish was printed.

[Crashed&Burned]

I flew out of T4 to Zurich on Wednesday, no probs, all on time and as advertised, and was quite looking forward to returning to the super duper T5.

On Thursady at Zurich, I found my BA return flight was 40 minutes late in arriving at Kloten, hence departing for London, but the arrival at LHR seemed OK until we found we had no stand due to another flight departing late, probably because of the baggage fiasco. We waited nearly an hour as we could not get a set of steps. Looking out at the guy sitting in the cab of the motorised steps, it was clear he had no idea what he was doing and had never driven one before. He turned on the indicators, then the lights and by a process of elimination moved the vehicle to the aircraft.

In the terminal it was the same, no one with a clue as to what to do and very few people who spoke English. The toilets didn't work, nor did the lifts. Trying to get to the 4th floor of the car park, it was necessary to take the stairs due to overcrowding of the single lift which was working.

If I can summarise, everything I experienced was due to untrained staff and incompetent project management. BA take a bow.

C&B

[Hand Solo]

Mmmm, Tony McCarthy. When he arrived in January he said he didn't really know what the pilots were upset about. One would have thought that 'Director People' would know why one of the companys essential workforces were ballotting for a strike! He then made all his staff re-apply for their own positions, with the result that when he was supposed to be in conciliation talks with ACAS he was spending his breaks interviewing his own staff for their own jobs, including, wait for it, it's worth it, the HR individual responsible for dealing with the pilots! Quality guy!

[PAXboy]

Pinkman... does this also mean that I should be concerned about things like maintenance and reliability, training, safety reporting, the decisions they made over their long-term fleet replacement, etc? Or is this just an isolated event?A very pertinent question and I think that, overall: This is not an isolated event. It is not isolated because, a huge multi-national does not produce a foul up like this just out of the blue.

For the kind of monumental SABU (Self Adjusting B@lls Up, because it automatically adjusts itself to keep getting worse) of T5 happens because the company has fundamental managerial problems. If one department fouled up, then it would not have happened, if two failed - it could have been salvaged but everything went wrong and then - the spokesman was running away and the BBC is banned from entering. That shows a top to bottom failure of management to plan, execute and recover from problems.

A simple example, the stories coming out that Ts 1-2-3 were running smoothly with BA out of the way? All those stories we have had in here over the years about T4 being a shambles and the management saying it will be better at T5? Except that ... it's the same managers.

I feel desperately sorry for all the front line staff. Be they ground, cabin or flight, how ghastly to be doing your job so well and knowing that it was all for nothing.

[Scottish Flyer]

I am someone who is prepared to accept that sometimes things don't go smoothly and even in the best run airports & airlines problems occur. What makes a good airline is how they respond to such situations. What I can't accept is when everyone tries to pass the buck and no-one takes responsibility and not even an apology is made to those who are affected. I was due to fly Club Europe to Vienna today with BA from T5. Yesterday I was able to check in online with no problems for both outward and return sectors (I was coming back same day). I went online yesterday evening to check my booking was still ok and the flights were shown as operating. However I then looked at the separate Flight Status section of the BA website - and my outward flight was shown as cancelled. I phoned the BA number given (I was very surprised to get through quite quickly) and it was confirmed that the flight was non-op. The BA person on the line was quick to recount all the problems they were having with T5 but not a word of apology was issued. No alternative flights could be offered due to the short notice although I was advised that as I was a premium passenger I could turn up at T5 this morning and they could see what they could do!! This was unacceptable and I had to cancel my trip which was an important one for me, which I booked some 2 months ago. If it wasn't for me double checking I would have had a fruitless and no doubt frustrating visit to T5 today. If they had contacted me earlier yesterday, I would have had the opportunity to salvage the trip by rebooking alternative flights on Austrian. Knowing that the problems were ongoing why didn't BA plan to give 24 hours notice of cancelled flights or why indeed do they not just return a proportion of flights to T1 until the T5 debacle is sorted out. It will take a lot to convince me to fly BA again and I reckon they will lose many premium passengers for good through their handling of this whole affair.

[pasoundman]

Tigs2
keep your pants on for god sake. I was mearly using the term staff as in 'employees of a company' whether management or Mrs Miggins the cleaner.

Well ... sorry tigs but I think you should have made that clear. The difference between staff and management at BA is clear as day. One lot actually do some work, whilst the other lot just 'lord it' over their employees.

This time however I reckon they've bitten off more than they can chew. With 450 extra staff T5's STILL not working properly. How many extra staff required when T4 moves ?

Or .... how long before a retreat back to T1 ?

Maybe they can plan an opening that actually works second time round ? Hopefully without WW and his circus of drongos.

[Tigs2]

Pasoundman

Well as I don't work at BA the difference between Staff and Management is not as clear as day! All employees in a company are staff, some of whom occupy management positions.

[beamender99]

I tried searching youtube for " T5 sorry " .

Up popped the mug shot of the "AWOL" Gareth Kirkwood.
(The item was added two days ago from bbcworldnews )

There had been just 4 viewers.

BUT put the finger on his face and click.

The following message appears

"This video is not available in your country"

I got the same response from another clip ( 24 viewers)

BA apologises for T5 trouble (http://youtube.com/watch?v=9vlnb_sulOw)
BA's chief executive has said sorry to stranded passengers but problems persist at Heathrow's Terminal 5....BBC News BA apologises for T5

??????

[mildredlucozade]

The real villain of the piece is DAVID NOYES. He was appointed Head of Heathrow in December 2004, followed by the airline’s new Director Customer Services in October 2007. This is the man that led the 'Fit for 5' Training & Familiarisation Programme for all LHR Ramp, Check-in, baggage.....need I go on. He was rewarded with promotion to the Leadership Team in December! FYI he is known in BA as Mr No Yes!

[Final 3 Greens]

When he arrived in January he said he didn't really know what the pilots were upset about.

This may come as a bit of a surprise, but many of the population share this view.

I am not endorsing what I am about to say as fair or even just, but the t&c's of many employees in the UK have changed significantly over the past 20 years and they have had to accept that.

So Mr McCarthy may be a little cleverer than you are giving him credit for, since as Noam Chomsky demonstrated with his comments about the holocaust, a little epxression of doubt can be very powerful.

[Basil Seal]

Rather interesting watching this litlle contre temps from the far reaches of the Western Atlantic and what is playing out. More scenes on the stage than one can keep track of at one time. What I must (as a union card holder myself) admit to being an almost prurient fascination is the what I imagine to be the genisis of this problem at Waterworld.

1. BA aircrew that I know have told me for the last 2 years that they were not confident in the T5 preps.

2. Normal opening day snafues were compounded by a seemingly systemic lack of foresight and training which in the normal course of things management would try to pass off on the workers however this was not normal for...

3. I imagine the initial response was to try to rectify the situation while at the same time having the BA press management get on the horn to their counterparts in the print and video press to intimate that the problems are "morale" related and carry a whiff of the ever menacing threat from the slope-headed workforce that has choosen to work under a collective bargaining agreement.

4. Press starts to gear up the usual anti-slope-headed leader for the top of the fold coverage when all of a sudden the situation reveals it to be more serious and the editors at the Telegraph, Sky, and BBC realize that anti-slope-headed rhetoric may not be enough to cover the story.
5. It goes downhill fast and is no longer funny. Pax are discomfited and worse, their luggage is in the ether and they are losing hope and confidence.

5. Wee Willie, in a breathtaking display of hubris and not sure how to fit it in with his equally breathtaking ambition spawned from an almost pathological case of short-man's disease, "takes responsibility!" That is good. I can take it as well with a serious underlying difference. Wee Willie can look at those American titans of major foul-ups and warm the reaches of his heart. Stan O'Neal at Merrill Lynch saw a Merrill loss in value of 27.4 billion and walked away with a 120 million severance package. James Cayne from Bear Stearns walked with 38 million. Chuck Prince of Citigroup lost more money than I can type and walked with 26 million. Now if you can foul up Bear Stearns and still walk away with 38M then Willie is telling himself that yes, perhaps a Knighthood is slipping away, but no real responsibility need be taken as there will be plenty of lucre either way.

6. With this in mind, Willie reassures senior staff that in NO WAY would their severance packages, should it go really south, ever be affected since he has taken an amorphous "responsibility."

7 . Sky et al., banned from T5. Serious scramble to revamp story since the sullen staff angle is not working.

Never. Not once is the word "leadership" mentioned. It applied when the Greeks fought the Persians and it will apply as long as man walks the earth. We export a lot to the world from this side of the ocean but please do not let your CEOs start this "I take responsibility" line. They are doing nothing of the sort and instead such langauge really is a very biiter insult to the work force to who they are not providing leadership.

[Thierry130]

I have always tried to use BA as I was under the impression that they were a safe and reliable airline, likewise LHR has been relatively easy to access. Never never again. BA has now proven to be an incompetent outfit with zero interest in their pax and as for BAA LHR management, words fail me. I used another national carrier from LGW instead - a real pleasure. If these pathetically run outfits are to continue in business, they should be stripped of the header "British"; they are nothing but an embarassment.

[Hand Solo]

Final 3 Greens - How many of the population are 'Director People' for BA? It's his job to know these things. Somehow I don't think a sharp HR director makes all his staff reapply for their own positions when he has two strike ballots in the pipeline and the biggest event in the airline for 20 years just 8 weeks away.

[cargosales]

The difference between staff and management at BA is clear as day. One lot actually do some work, whilst the other lot just 'lord it' over their employees.


Actually, pasoundman, it isn't clear from where I'm sitting reading this thread. I'm not familiar with BA's set-up / reporting lines so when exactly do staff stop being staff and become management? Could you give us some examples please? I keep hearing that 'management' is to blame for this fiasco but I'm honestly not sure at what level 'management' kicks in.


As an aside, but one which staff AND management of BA might care to note: My mother just returned from one of her regular trips to Oz. In the past she has always flown BA / Qantas but this time she went with Virgin so I quizzed her about the experience. She said that the food on VS was pretty grim compared to BA, that the seat seemed narrower and a bit less comfortable [Airbus vs Boeing I guess?] and the crew were younger and less experienced, if more enthusiastic than she had experienced before.

Me: So I guess you won't be using Virgin again then?
Mum: Oh, I most definitely will use them next time, even if I have to sneak some decent food onboard with me!
Me: Err, why?
Mum: Because with Virgin everything was easy, straightforward and hassle free. It didn't take ages to check in like it does with BA - I didn't have to stand in endless queues, everyone seemed to know what they were doing and I arrived on the aircraft calm and relaxed. Unlike BA where the whole palaver means I'm totally worn out before I've even left the ground.

BA, please take note!

[PAXboy]

Scottish FlyerWhat I can't accept is when everyone tries to pass the buck and no-one takes responsibility and not even an apology is made to those who are affected.Ummm, it's called modern business?

The number of companies these days (not all) who have similarly arrogant 'managers' are countless. Given time, enough staff can protect the managers but, when the managers want their bonus and cut back the staff numbers too far - the managers are left exposed.

Let's look on the bright side ... BAA's grip on LHR is now hanging by a fingernail. :D

[pasoundman]

Scottish Flyer
What I can't accept is when everyone tries to pass the buck and no-one takes responsibility and not even an apology is made to those who are affected.
Ummm, it's called modern business?

If you can credit it with the name 'business' !


PAXboy
The number of companies these days (not all) who have similarly arrogant 'managers' are countless. Given time, enough staff can protect the managers but, when the managers want their bonus and cut back the staff numbers too far - the managers are left exposed.

You're totally right PAXboy. I'm seen all too much of it myself and I'm fed up to the back gills with it. You see utterly useless IDIOTS given senior positions that they haven't a hope of coping with and when they fail they get PAID OFF !

This style of mamagement is now endemic. As you say, for a long time the hard working 'front-line' employees have been able to cover up for their bosses' incompetence but BA management couldn't be saved from this one.

[hometown]

No mention yet of the brawling & fist fighting between baggage staff on the first day, resulting in 10 or 12 of them being suspended.

Putting T1 & T4 baggage together in one place is akin to placing two rival groups of rowdy football supporters together in a confined space.

Anyone else heard more about the fun & games on the first day?

Read this on another forum , haven't had it confirmed as yet but good to see the inter terminal rivalry is as strong as ever :eek:

[andy_smith89uk]

> SKYNEWS attached hidden cam to their luggage, go to skynews
> to watch!!!
>

Interesting. The bag in question's journey was 40mins from check-in to aircraft. BA minimum check-in at LHR = 45mins (although I'm not sure I would deliberately risk leaving it that late for my own progress through to the gate, let alone my bag's!)

But, surely that is cutting it too fine on the checked luggage front? Is this as serious as a fundamental flaw in the design of the whole T5 baggage system? (And if that's the case, it's a bit bloody late to find out now!)

[pasoundman]

beamender99
I tried searching youtube for " T5 sorry " .

Up popped the mug shot of the "AWOL" Gareth Kirkwood.
(The item was added two days ago from bbcworldnews )

So I also tried searching youtube for " T5 sorry " .

What I got was "No Videos found for No Videos found for '" T5 sorry "'. Which is probably true. I doubt the management give a damn bar worrying about their bonuses.

[Hand Solo]

Are you sure Skys camera was hidden? I watched the video and it appeared to be all above board with the implication that the filming was done on a trial run. The rest of the baggage system seemed very empty if it was being filmed on a live day.

[Final 3 Greens]

Final 3 Greens - How many of the population are 'Director People' for BA? It's his job to know these things. Somehow I don't think a sharp HR director makes all his staff reapply for their own positions when he has two strike ballots in the pipeline and the biggest event in the airline for 20 years just 8 weeks away.

Hand Solo. I am sure that you are a very good pilot.

You also appear to be rather naive, at least from your comment, about business management.

As a frequent traveller, I value your aviation skills highly (and as a PPL holder I am aware of the extremely high competence, command decision making, ongoing training/testing and dedication that you have.)

But if you consider that there is only one director of people at BA and several thousands of pilots, you might conclude that the competition for his job is even tougher than to become an ATPL working for a company that has arguably the highest standards for flight deck in the world.

Do not under rate Mr McCarthy's acumen in what he is doing.

[darrylj]

i heard from someone in loading that management agreed that they would come in & do only six hours, but was tricked & then once there, told they would be stuck there for some like 10 hours!, so with all that, they decided to :mad: up the operation which helped cause all this. maybe.

BA staff working well together yet again NOT :p

[172driver]

Sad to say, but BA has lost the biggest asset any airline anywhere has - the TRUST of its clients (a.k.a. passengers). In a way, a sad day :(

[hometown]

The real villains of the piece

Willie Walsh
Chief Executive
Willie Out as accepted blame and is sitting ontop of the piling steaming heap he calls his leadership team. Oh for those that think WW has turned things round finacially without hurting the airline. It doesn't take a genius or business guru to issue the following instruction, 'cut your management by 1/3'. What happens then is the best 1/3 leave with a nice handshake and find a better job leaving the hubris lot behind, all steam and no go.

Keith Williams
Chief Financial Officer
Penny pinching bean counter - Has got to go. Only took over after the last financial bod John Rishton had his coller felt by the US Feds...a little bit of price fixing. Well come on, you need somebody to do the adding up, I mean poor Martin George only has eight fingers and two of them were always up his ass.

Robert Boyle
Commercial Director
Recent BA commercials are ok, lets keep him. We like the cloudy dolphin thing

Paul Coby
Chief Information Officer
Chief no F'in Information officer, got to go!

Garry Copeland
Director of Engineering
Copeland, the engineering problems are still yet to surface, but they are there. See you Gary you gotta go. Cehck out www.airmech.co.uk for details

Gareth Kirkwood aka Gareth Berkwood the BA runner
Director of Operations
Keep him for novelty value, he is without doubt the funniest thing I have seen for sometime. A quick march that could come straight from Monty Python

David Noyes
Director of Customer Services
What customer service? irrespective of Bollock thursday he has to go. Ba customers are leaving in droves.

Tony McCarthy
Director People & Organisational Effectiveness
to$$er from RoyalMail, they didn;t want him, nor do we, letters! I mean laters Tony. Typical Union buster type, probably brought in specially to deal with our pilots. He hasn;t a hope in hell so may as well depart gracefully.
Roger Maynard
Director of Investments & Alliances
Keep him, he may be valuable in coming months
Robert Webb QC
General Counsel
Shrewd man, keep him onside. Very funny when drunk.......but I didn't say that, heard it 3rd hand or he may sue me!


Excellent piece of work BAengineering , in the words of the immortal Terry Thomas , 'What a shower'

[pasoundman]

darrylj
i heard from someone in loading that management agreed that they would come in & do only six hours, but was tricked & then once there, told they would be stuck there for some like 10 hours!

If even remotely true then simply more signs of management INSANITY !

[GrumpyOldFart]

Some posters on this thread have said how embarrassed and ashamed they are to be British, or to be BA or BAA employees. There’s no need to be ashamed: you didn’t fail – it was middle- and upper-management in both companies who failed. And that’s mainly due to a malady that has been sweeping the world for twenty years or more – the awful, abysmal, MBA.

Too many people have emerged from too many business schools, clutching their diplomas, thinking they knew everything there was to know about managing a business. But stop and think for a moment. Who taught them everything they needed to know? University professors, that’s who. Professors who, themselves, throughout their lives, had only ever been to school. High school, bachelor’s degree, master’s, doctorate – and straight back to school to pass on to the next generation everything they thought they knew. All theory, though, because few, precious few, of them had ever actually managed a business.

So these newly-minted MBAs are then snapped up into management positions, by other MBAs already in place at the big corporations – and the cycle of unknowing incompetence is thus perpetuated.

In many corporations, incompetent management isn’t usually in the public eye, and there are countless ways of concealing all but the greatest of disasters. The airline business, and other industries which directly serve the public, don’t have the luxury of concealment. Their screwups are right there in public view.

- - - - - -

Walsh was quoted in a number of places as saying “The buck stops here.” Absolutely right, Willie. You got it in one. Another quote said “I accept full responsibility.” Well, Willie, do you understand what responsibility is? T5 has been BA’s biggest project during your term in office. It failed. You failed. Your responsibility now is to say goodbye.

Yes, you’re right. It’s not just BA at fault. BAA appear to have screwed up royally, too, and heads need to roll there as well. But BA, as BAA’s customer, should have been driving BAA to perform. Sadly, obviously, they didn’t drive hard enough.

And right now, despite all the hype and the technological achievements relative to the building envelope itself, the important parts of T5 appear to be as big a pile of crap as ever sat in the sewage farm which previously occupied the site.

[Tigs2]

Pasoundman
Care to answer me and Cargosales. We are on your side you know!!

[WEST12]

yes to all above, get rid of Willie Walsh, it a sad dad for T5 and the irish, and am Irish, and ex EI, and not because of Willie,:O i saw what was coming,

[Tigs2]

Is this a record number of postings in so short a time??

[pasoundman]

Tigs2
Pasoundman, Care to answer me and Cargosales. We are on your side you know!!

You mean about who's staff and who's management ?

I'm surprised you need to ask but here goes.

The pilots (aside from management pilots - well even they may be ok), cabin crew, baggage loaders, check-in staff etc, etc are all 'staff'.

Management are the tossers who have the best paid jobs, you know with nice offices, allegedly determining 'policy' (like how many people to employ - or should that be sack - and where) and how the airline (in this case) is generally run. Whilst the majority of managers are indeed simply employees, there is a quite different culture to management today and it's been getting more pronounded over the years as a brand new kind of idiot called the MBA has made inroads into the business.

Have you never heard of the 'barrow boy' mentality in The City that boomed under Thatcher's auspices ? These guys were notably PROUD of their lack of academic or general educational achievement. And of course, whilst things were rosy, they did Ok as ANYONE would have done !

Now we have a new bunch of similar characters whose only skill in business is in passing a degree called an MBA who are now widely esconced in British businesses and killing them slowly by a thousand cuts and general incompetence. BA is NOT unique by any means, but a high profile project like T5 has exposed them to be the unworthy bunch of ****s they are.

My advice ? Don't trust anyone wearing a smart suit. It's all show you see.

[exeng]

Get rid of the little Tinker along with the leadership team. The PR fiasco is appalling for all pax and shareholders - even worse than the dog's breakfast that is the move to T5. The misleading letter to pax - are the management on drugs.

Can't believe they, or the BAA, stopped the BBC and Sky from entering the terminal - that will make the press desist won't it.

This comes on top of all the other recent stuff about fuel surcharges, freight charge colusion etc.

You can kind of see why the late Sir Freddie was somewhat annoyed by the airline who used to state 'We'll take good care of you'. We'll rip you off in the process of 'losing' you luggage is somewhat more like it.

I still have to fly with BA at times because my airline book tickets with them - I've asked them to stop doing it.:ugh:


Regards
Exeng

[Tigs2]

Pasoundman
I bow to your in depth knowledge of the comapany and I agree with your arguments. Please agree that myself and Cargosales are completely correct with our comments in that we do not know the structure of BA staff, and even from your previous post at the end of the day staff are staff! I do not agree with your predjudices of pay grades and offices to segregate people as management or otherwise. I know of some fantastic guys in BA management who do not fit your profile. After this week there are clearly some tossers!

[Skipness One Echo]

Good luck trying to run a complex world spanning airline with no management. A lot of the bile and apparent class bitterness is easily disproved because sadly for your argument, there are one or several rather good British firms doing quite well. They are well managed often by men who work very hard to gain an MBA. These business schools are not taught by professors in ivory towers but by real business types as well as experienced professionals. So let's dial down the 1970s hatred of the white collar succesful man and get over the fact you don't work in an office for a moment. Stop generalising about things you evidently know little about.
The problems at BA are that BA is BADLY managed. That is not headline news. It has been well managed in the past, I will point to Lord King and Lord Marshall who were far from angels or perfect but delivered results with a class product. Contrast that will Ayling and his ethnic tail fins PR calamity, I loved them but they were too clever by half and the airline is much better served with the iconic union flag. Also contrast Rod Eddington with Mr Walsh who is comic material gold and a classic little chap with a big ego. He's a laughing stock, his managers are shown to have been absent in due diligence and for the first time in my life I think that BA deserve to fail. Really, they're a national bloody joke !

[cargosales]

Quote:
Tigs2
Pasoundman, Care to answer me and Cargosales. We are on your side you know!!
You mean about who's staff and who's management ?

I'm surprised you need to ask but here goes.

The pilots (aside from management pilots - well even they may be ok), cabin crew, baggage loaders, check-in staff etc, etc are all 'staff'.

Management are the tossers who have the best paid jobs, you know with nice offices, allegedly determining 'policy' (like how many people to employ - or should that be sack - and where) and how the airline (in this case) is generally run. Whilst the majority of managers are indeed simply employees, there is a quite different culture to management today and it's been getting more pronounded over the years as a brand new kind of idiot called the MBA has made inroads into the business.

Have you never heard of the 'barrow boy' mentality in The City that boomed under Thatcher's auspices ? These guys were notably PROUD of their lack of academic or general educational achievement. And of course, whilst things were rosy, they did Ok as ANYONE would have done !

Now we have a new bunch of similar characters whose only skill in business is in passing a degree called an MBA who are now widely esconced in British businesses and killing them slowly by a thousand cuts and general incompetence. BA is NOT unique by any means, but a high profile project like T5 has exposed them to be the unworthy bunch of ****s they are.

My advice ? Don't trust anyone wearing a smart suit. It's all show you see.


pasoundman, that's a lovely, very emotional but entirely uninformative reply. Would you care to have another go please?

As Tigs says, we are on your side but proving that is a teensy bit difficult when you can't/don't/won't answer fundamental questions about where 'staff' ends and 'management' begins. We don't work for BA (do you???) and have no knowledge of reporting lines therein. Please could you enlighten us so we have a better understanding of the problems within BA?

Thanks

CS

[beamender99]

Censored ??
I tried searching youtube for " T5 sorry "

I also tried " T5 troubles" and up popped Max Clifford.
( the only clip I saw live of Max was when he was asked " on a scale of 1-10 how does the T5 scene rate ? Answer 12

There had been just 1 viewer.

BUT put the finger on his face and click.

The following message appears

"This video is not available in your country"


again

It would appear that someone is very busy with the gagging tools.
??????

[pasoundman]

Skipness One Echo
Good luck trying to run a complex world spanning airline with no management.

Who said anything about NO management ?

All that's needed is a COMPETENT management, ideally one that understands the job, and a bunch of halfwit MBAs absolutely doesn't fit the bill.

And actually, I doubt the 'management' gets much involved with route planning.

[Vino Collapso]

MBA !!

Ha Ha Ha ha ha ha.

A joke qualification of the 1990's and 2000's.

If you want to manage something you absolutely have to know how it works and have 'coalface' experience of the job.

Too many paperwork qualified in-experienced prats in too many key roles in this country. BA is just todays high profile MBA driven c**k up. Another will be long to claim the accolade tomorrow.

[exeng]

After this week there are clearly some to**ers!

Quite right but 'this week' is somewhat out of date.

Short termist to**ers that will destroy the airline along with shareholder value. If you are a sharholder in BA this is a time to consider selling.

Next in line is the Pilots strike which should see the shares well back to junk bond value. All this under the leadership of the 'little Tinker' with the leadership team.

BA management are not interested in anything else other than their own financial and personal status. They have royally screwed up for decades and survive only because of their historical monopoly of slots.

The only hope for BA is that a complete clean out of management takes place - until that time expect more regular bad news.

best of luck to the shareholders that stick with it - I admire your guts.

[flyingman-of-kent]

I thought you may be interested in this, copied from the DM

I worked as a network engineer on the T5 project. I started when the building was still a shell and finished just before the trials. Let me say with confidence that it was shambolic from the beginning. The number of project managers, slavishly working towards their own individual 'project milestones' - usually to the detriment of other project teams, was lamentable.
Never before have I seen so many incompetent, self-serving managers in one place. I'm still in touch with sub-contracted engineers working on the project and to a man, we all knew that something like this would happen. I emailed them yesterday and they replied saying that they 'couldn't stop laughing'. The job was poorly coordinated, rushed and the organisation defied logic. From day 1,even before it had been built, the tag-line just below the logo on all the project documentation stated "T5, The Worlds most successful Airport Development" Arrogance or what?

- D Martin, Guildford, UK

[pasoundman]

cargosales
pasoundman, that's a lovely, very emotional but entirely uninformative reply. Would you care to have another go please?

As Tigs says, we are on your side but proving that is a teensy bit difficult when you can't/don't/won't answer fundamental questions about where 'staff' ends and 'management' begins.

If I were to talk of 'senior management' would that make more sense. I'd imagined it would be read as such but I admit I may have overlooked the fact that there actually may be some quite compentent 'junior' management.

You see, any business has a heirarchy that's a bit like a pyramid. You need lots of people doing the day to day routine stuff at the lower levels and so on and so forth until you get ONE person like WW at the top.

Now, you might expect or hope that those at the top ought to be the best educated, experienced, skilled and informed that the company has but this is not assured. And this is where BA has fallen down.

Furthermore there seems to be a culture that's arisen where the everyday staff know that reporting 'bad news' is unwelcome, so they have probably more or less given up even trying to tell the various layers of management where the problems exist. After so long you realise it's probably not worth bothering.

Ever seen the film "I'm Alright Jack" ? Not quite the same but it might be instructive.

[TwinAisle]

Just a thought - but (and I think I may know the answer to this...) - is there a "back out" plan for T5?

I've project managed a few large projects in my time (although none as big and as complex as the T5 move) and the golden rule was "always have a back out" - ie, if it all goes tango uniform, get back to something that you knew worked.

Could BA go back to T1 and has anyone planned for it??

TA (with an MBA, without chip on shoulder)....

[beamender99]

The original Gareth Kirkwood
( omitting his immediate departure, ignoring questions and his oppo shutting the door to stop the reporter following him. -27th Mar.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/player/nol/newsid_7310000/newsid_7317500/7317579.stm?bw=bb&mp=wm&news=1&nol_storyid=7317579&bbcws=1

W Walsh -
http://news.bbc.co.uk/player/nol/newsid_7310000/newsid_7318200/7318259.stm?bw=bb&mp=wm&asb=1&news=1&bbcws=1

Max Clifford 28th Mar
http://news.bbc.co.uk/player/nol/newsid_7310000/newsid_7319200/7319203.stm?bw=bb&mp=wm&asb=1&news=1&bbcws=1

[pasoundman]

TwinAisle
Just a thought - but (and I think I may know the answer to this...) - is there a "back out" plan for T5?

I've project managed a few large projects in my time (although none as big and as complex as the T5 move) and the golden rule was "always have a back out" - ie, if it all goes tango uniform, get back to something that you knew worked.

If WW's shower of utter morons got it this badly wrong, do you seriously think they even thought of having a back-up plan ?

I think it's not entirely impossible they may need to retrench to T1 though.

Bear in mind. there are currently 450 'extra' staff in T5 to help and they still can't get more than 80% of flights away !

[Tigs2]

Beam

Fantastic link thanks. pity that did not show him running off!!

Tigs2:ok:

[pasoundman]

beamender99
W Walsh - http://news.bbc.co.uk/player/nol/new...news=1&bbcws=1

"I'm going to make this work". He'd better get down to the ramp then and start loading some bags !

[derekvader]

Could BA go back to T1 and has anyone planned for it??

Not at T1, people who've been there say the BA signage was nearly all gone by 7.30am the next day.

And at T4 I think there are several new USA flights starting Sunday with Delta and Continental that need the space.

[Tigs2]

See now this is RUMOURS AND NEWS! Its what this site was made for!

[pasoundman]

Skipness One Echo
there are one or several rather good British firms doing quite well.

Name them !

This is an island nation that cannot even any longer build the cruise ships for its premier shipping companies. Well ... admittedly P&O and Cunard are technically no longer British (owned by the US operator Carnival) but you get the drift.

MV Oriana - built by Meyer Werft shipyard, Papenburg, Germany

"Ideally Oriana would have been built in the United Kingdom, but unfortunately there were no British shipyards left capable of completing such an order"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MV_Oriana_(1995)


QM2 - built in France

"The RMS Queen Mary 2 (QM2) is a Cunard Line ocean liner named after the earlier Cunard liner Queen Mary, which was in turn named after Mary of Teck, the Queen Consort of George V. At the time of her construction in 2003 by the Chantiers de l'Atlantique... "
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/QM2

Queen Victoria - built in Italy by Ficantieri

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MS_Queen_Victoria

So, I'd just LOVE to hear where Britain is doing WELL if we can't even build a decent SHIP these days.

[derekvader]

Made the papers again ...

http://www.urlimagehosting.com/imagehosting/files/7m3md0tbdzgevbvnngme.jpg (http://www.urlimagehosting.com/imagehosting/)

[pasoundman]

Julia Gillam, passenger communications manager for BAA Heathrow, said: "I would absolutely dispute that we have had problems this week.

"Let's be clear, in Terminal 5 the baggage system is working 100 per cent.

"BA do their own baggage handling. If you want to talk about the problems at Terminal 5, you need to talk to British Airways."

Hmmm......

Ok, so who's responsible for the broken lifts and escalators ?

[peebs24]

Vino Collapso
"MBA !!

Ha Ha Ha ha ha ha.

A joke qualification of the 1990's and 2000's.

If you want to manage something you absolutely have to know how it works and have 'coalface' experience of the job.

Too many paperwork qualified in-experienced prats in too many key roles in this country. BA is just todays high profile MBA driven c**k up. Another will be long to claim the accolade tomorrow."

Don't blame the MBA itself. There are many instances, particularly in 60's, 70's & 80's Britain where companies have been run into the ground - out whole manufacturing base as a start. Most of these were run by people who DIDN'T have an MBA.

The T5 fiasco has nothing to do with MBA. It was caused by the total lack of leadership from the top. If he had been a good leader Wee Willie would have been in there right away helping his staff by taking some of the flack himself. There is such a thing as a Company culture which again, comes from the top. If the culture is bad then communications between levels of management suffer and that is what seems to have happened here. There is only one explanation as to why so many things went wrong at the same time - the project was not ready to be run. The problem was that the message never got passed up the chain OR it was ignored by the top management who were to scared for their jobs/bonuses to say "STOP".

Despite all the wisecracks about MBA's and management, every company needs GOOD management. What seems to be lacking in BA is leadership and an open door culture that encourages the two way flow of information - good and bad.

By the way, you don't have to have been at that particular coalface to well manage a company. I am retired and I have an MBA and I have successfully run companies in areas as diverse as filtration - including aviation fuel, truck manufacturing, TV, power generation and household appliances in both the US and in Europe. If I have been successful, it was because I lead from the front and encouraged the right culture within the company - teamwork.

[Silver Tongued Cavalier]

WW will take this on the chin and get back up fighting I'm sure. He's well able for this type of scrap. What doesn't kill you makes you stronger.

Love the Daily Mail style Conservative shock horror stories!!! Is your life really that dull and boring? A few posh new conveyor belts got blocked up and bags spilling all over the place! The lads down the baggage hall must have p*ssed themselves! :p Meltdown/Chaos/the country's gone to the dogs/bring back QE2 and the Spitfire???

The City will really love WW when he really gets T5 down to the bone.

[pasoundman]

Silver Tongued Cavalier
WW will take this on the chin and get back up fighting I'm sure.

But how about BA ?

[nigegilb]

Ah yes, talk of the QE2;

Yesterday passengers continued to vent their anger. Charles Thomas, 64, a wheelchair user, told of arriving in the morning to find that the lift did not work, leaving him to negotiate escalators with the help of his wife and an embarrassed porter. Thomas and his wife, Linda, travelling from Newcastle to join the QE2 in Los Angeles, had arrived at the airport at 7am and were settling in for a long wait before their next flight was due to take off just after 3pm.

'You expect something better from British Airways because you're certainly paying for it, but they wouldn't even make any lounge facility available to my husband, who has major health problems and could do with recuperating before we embark on our 12-hour flight,' Mrs Thomas said. 'The attitude of the supervisor we spoke to was completely rude. Hell will freeze over before we fly with British Airways again.'


I just wonder how many BA passengers follow through with the threat. Leadership should be practised at all levels, there would appear to be a complete lack of it at T5 at the moment, along with a lack of basic humanity.

[pasoundman]

Well .... I'm probably going to be flying to Shanghai in a month or two.

I'd have LOVED to have flown from a properly functional T5 but it looks like the suits have ensured it's not to be.

[crewmeal]

Who actually banned Sky & the Beeb from T5? Was it BA the BAA or the Police? Does that mean other news agencies such as CNN, Channel 4 etc are banned as well? What if reporters want to actually fly from there? Guess its webcams in their lapels!!!

Gone are the days of the old BOAC slogan of 'we'll take good care of you' and 'VC10derness' used to appear on billboards around London. Staff then were proud to work for the carrier.

As an old BOAC employee I hate to see what a string of inept, incompetent Managers have done over the years by eroding the service standards in all departments, and have brought the once 'world's favourite airline' almost to its knees. If WW wants to use a quote from a great leader, then he should act like one and steer the airline to position of trust that passengers and employees could be proud of.

What of the future? More empty planes flying around because passengers have voted with their feet? Who knows? time will tell.

[Sunfish]

As a card carrying MBA (Class of '84 from a top 20 in the world institution) your comments regarding the worth of this qualification are both correct and incorrect. Any decent MBA school will send you off with a reminder that an MBA is a licence to learn management.

Unfortunately companies are stupid enough to hire "wet behind the ears" MBA's into roles that are outside their capacity. I know. It happened to me. Picture a 28 year old Sunfish advising a grizzled 50 year old how to run his business. I cringe at the thought of it now.

The real issue, I believe, is that we have now substituted "Character" as a precondition for a management role, with "Merit" which has come to mean "performance"(including an MBA) in a narrow set of dimensions. There are plenty of "Industrial Psychopaths" who do "merit" very well, and therefore get promoted to where they can do considerable damage to an organisation.

Of course in the bad old days, you hired someone you had been at school with, they may not have been very bright, but at least you knew whether they were a s**t or not.

It's your call which system for selecting senior management works best.

[TWA_Flight_Center]

Here's the link to the Gareth Kirkwood YouTube Video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CsJvdS4Y5F8

I worked for him many years ago - and nothing has given me greater pleasure than watching his pathetic 'performance' here. Gareth Deadwood really is an apt name.

Why on earth he continues to be promoted within BA is beyond my comprehension.

[BAengineering]

Following is a quote from a current UK airline website. Who can fill in the gaps?


" ***** Following is a quote from a current UK airline website. Who can fill in the gaps?


" ***** had spent 11 years with British Airways where he held a range of senior commercial management positions covering areas such as in-flight product development , shorthaul brand management and most recently leading the development of the customer experience for Heathrow's Terminal 5."


Did he see the writing on the wall??."


CLUE: THe surname is the same as one individual Martin George who left BA with a handsome handshake after the 'Price fixing fiasco'. Is he a realtive?

Extra points if someone can find a picture and ask him the question above directly......

[d71146]

I personally think that the only way BA are going to regain any credibility now are for the current regime that are calling the shots to go and go now as folk are now going to vote with their money and give their custom to other airlines.
Has everyone noticed how deathly quiet certain other airline CEOs have been.

[Hartington]

I'm flying to Tokyo on Tuesday (1st April!) on BA from T5. I have heard the stories about 15000 bags at Heathrow. I am assuming that there is an element of the press blowing things out of proportion and that some of the bags are ones that have nothing to do with T5.

What I would like to know is how well the T5 baggage "system" is working. I have the option of shipping the bags in advance - do I take it

[mickjoebill]

Are you sure Skys camera was hidden? I watched the video and it appeared to be all above board with the implication that the filming was done on a trial run. The rest of the baggage system seemed very empty if it was being filmed on a live day.


The language in the report was a little too flufffy to substantiate much, other than what the camera revealed.

I suspect they started the clock as soon as the bag went on the scales.

There were other bags in shot, but not many!
The wide shot of a busy checkin line at the start of the report has a backpacker with a white shirt in the que. The next shot is the bag camera brushing past this guy and giving us a view of a brown bag on the scales.
Next shot is camera bag on scales with same brown bag in front of it dissapearing down the conveyer.
So there is continuity of subjects linking the wide shot at the beginning and the hidden camera bag on the conveyor.

Can anyone identify if the wide shot at the beging reveals if it was the test day?

What *is* curious is why they didnt show the bag being loaded on the aircraft. This would have added a few minutes to the journey and further underpinned their assertion that it takes an age for bags to get from checkin to hold.


Would still like to see the 40 minute unedited shot :)


Mickjoebill

[Walnut]

If as the title suggests T5 was not finished then the real fault was BAA's not BA's for the current fiasco.

It has become apparent that BA is having to cull up to 20% of its planned flts at the new terminal, why?

I believe its because there are insufficient stands at the new facility to run the full operation. You get a similar effect with BA's operation when the movement rate at the a/p reduces due to bad w/x, then domestic and some out & back european flts are canx. These have the least effect on the next days operations, & bring the operation into balance.

I appreciate a/c are taking longer to turnround due to the baggage problem but if the stands are not available then no amount of tinkering is going to help.

The terminal completion has been set for some time, ever since WW has been at the helm. Open Skies has been set to start this weekend, with all the terminal changes and space needed to accomodate the extra flts and of course the Queen had been booked to attend the opening.

So with all these pressures I question if all behind the facard was actually finished? Perhaps someone can comment?

Re the baggage, clearly 7000pd can not be allowed to build up in the airside vaults of T5, within a week the current 20,000 will become 50,000, then what? Are they all carted off in the dead of night to a landfill site!! or is the terminal closed or some flts moved out until the building is really finished.

If BAA can be proved to be at fault the BA will have the potential for a massive lawsuit against them.

[Mr Flaps]

just seen on the bmi website that they are showing 'BA flight disruption' and offering people a link to book a new flight with bmi or call them. You can still book a flight an hour before STD. Nice one bmi well done.

If all BA pax who where fed up with T5 and BA in general started flying with bmi, Virgin and other leading world airlines like Singapore then this baggage moutain would soon clear and BA managers will be looking at a balance sheet in the red. With just a nice big bill for T5 rent all over it.

And before anyone asks I do work for the other carrier and I am a little sick of BA this and oh BA that. 'T5 welcome to our new home'. More like welcome to our new circus tent. Let get the BA managers out doing some circus tricks for our passengers while we loose their bags for them.

All I can say T1 is great now BA have run off to T5.

[mickjoebill]

It would appear that someone is very busy with the gagging tools.
??????

Google doesn't do well with 2 letter search requests.
Try searching for "Terminal 5"

It delivers +30 pages of links to T5 problems.




Mickjoebill

[sanjosebaz]

If all BA pax who where fed up with T5 and BA in general started flying with bmi, Virgin ...It is definitely happening. A colleague here in Dubai (a Gold Exec Club Card holder) was due to fly Biz class tomorrow with BA to T5, but decided not to take the risk of bags not arriving in good time (!).

Just spend an age on a VERY busy Virgin Atlantic site to book Premium Economy with them instead. Strangely, this Gold Card holder is also vowing never to fly with BA again. I doubt whether that statement will hold true, but it is definitely true that (from Dubai at least) Emirates and Virgin are most definitely scoring big, thanks to BA's own goal.

[CaptainFillosan]

You can bet that BA's compensation payments, not to mention their incoming legals, are going to cost mega mega millions.

The TOTAL incompetency of the management is breathtaking. Little wonder they are attempting to shut the media up, which in itself is a huge mistake. It is clear that the management are trying to protect their own images and seem to care little for their passengers who have been treated very badly. Good management that!

BA and BAA were never ready for the launch of T5 and there should be a basket of heads around somewhere, but with BA's usual arrogance they carry on mis-leading everyone and seem not to have grasped the fact that they have blown it!

WW will no longer be a favourite of city, or even the most modest investor in regard to the fortunes of BA who are, on their own, bringing into disrepute the integrity of British air travel.

Their balance sheet is heading for a ginormous fall after this fiasco. They must sort out EXACTLY what went wrong and who caused it. Then wield the axe and hope they can recover - but somehow I rather doubt they can.

[Bus429]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/money/main.jhtml?xml=/money/2008/03/30/ccterminal130.xml

Says it all.

[nigegilb]

If I was flying on Apr 1 from Heathrow I would give T5 a wide berth and use another Carrier. I share the same thoughts about MBA drones slotting in at the top of management. The global credit crisis is a direct result of CEO's not understanding their own products. There is no substitute for a graduate being recruited in his/her early 20s and working through the myriad of departments in a corporation and finishing up in charge. Corporate America binned this culture in the 80s and look where they are now. Asian and Indian Companies have taken over the baton and are much more successful as a result. For a fine example of modern management double-speak check out the following, searching desperately for any evidence of common sense on offer from this disaster;

"Further down the BAA management food chain there was similar enthusiasm. Veronica Kumar, the 29-year-old impressively named 'head of people and change' at T5, purred that the move offered a 'nirvana' of sorts. 'Our policy has been to create a context for change, then to apply changes within that context.

If few people outside the world of human resources knew what Kumar was on about, they were clearer about her ultimate goal. 'We want to give fliers an experience they'll remember,' she said.

Last Thursday Kumar achieved her aim, although not for the reasons BA and BAA would have wished. As the queues stretched, IT systems crashed, baggage went missing, scuffles broke out and children screamed, it was clear the launch of T5 had been an unmitigated disaster - rivalled in recent times only by the opening night of the Dome, when hundreds of VIPs, including most national newspaper editors, were forced to queue in the cold on the last night of the millennium.


Inside the terminal, there were scenes of chaos. Along with angry passengers, staff were becoming increasingly demoralised. Security staff coming to their desks in arrivals were alarmed to find large orange signs warning them: 'Danger, Live Cables.' It turned out the cables were no longer live, but no one had remembered to remove the signs. As the day wore on, drinking water was shipped in for the overstretched baggage teams, but the security staff refused to allow the bottles in.

[Bus429]

Perhaps this investment would have been better spent on training at T5?

http://www.bashares.com/phoenix.zhtml?c=69499&p=irol-newsArticle_Print&ID=1120068&highlight=

[Joetom]

Webb sight says all Longhaul normal today (sunday)

Webb sight also shows 4 Longhauls canx today, IAD,SEA,IAD,JFK.

I guess some of these passengers will be on the TV tonight telling their story.

Main complaint never goes away, Lack of Information and Lack of people to help the poor passenger.

[mickjoebill]

Having observed Heathrow Police stop, question and review pictures from a young womans palmcorder in T1 last year, one wonders how the establishment will handle the "threat" of journos with mobile phone cams in T5?


As I understand it BAA can stop you filming but have no right to confiscate footage in the terminal (unless they get the police to use one of the Anti Terrorism laws)

However BAA could sue if that footage subequently appears without their permission.
Use of hidden cams is covered by Broadcasting rules and shouldn't be undertaken unless it is in the public interest. One can argue that a mobile phone is a hidden cam!

Perhaps a court would conclude that filming piles of delayed bags or shoddy operations inside T5 is in the public interest but filming a securty checkpoint is not.



Mickjoebill

[southern duel]

Walnut

There is enough stand capacity at T5 ( at the moment) which is why BA only moved the T1 and some of the T4 operation. Switch 2 is on the 26th april when everything will be going out of T5. By then there will be more stand capacity available as new stands will be available..

So its nothing to do with insufficient stands.

:*

[rubik101]

If you are familiar with the UK TV show, 'The Apprentice' you will see a collection of candidates who have evidently been chosen for their 'management skills'. This arrogant, ill-mannered, shallow and unwholesome collection of people are those who will, sadly, achieve success in the modern business environment.
They are the bosses and board members of BA and BAA and many other British companies in a few years from now.
The BBC had a sketch on Radio 4 this morning using a voice-alike? for Alan Sugar telling Willie Walsh how he had got on with his task. He queried the man's competence in customer service, amongst other transgressions.
It finished with the ineveitable, 'You're fired!'

[mickjoebill]

Have to smile at some results of automatic placement of web ads.


For reference original page here http://news.sky.com/skynews/article/0,,30400-1311137,00.html but it has changed, so here is a screen grab....



http://www.urlimagehosting.com/imagehosting/files/zsvf8cxdwh6aabxhfs5i.jpg (http://www.urlimagehosting.com/imagehosting/)

Copyright © 2008 BSkyB


Mickjoebill

[BAengineering]

BUS429 suggests deluded optimism as the cause, reference Times article. You are very far from the truth, it is far more simple than anything that complicated. A pure a simple case of incompetence... nothing more nothing less. It's written on the tin, WYSIWYG with BA

[crewmeal]

Has anyone used BA staff travel with bags in T5 yet?

[BAengineering]

Hartington - are you Paul Josef Goebbels? As he was experiance in the art of denial. Look for yourself, witness the power of truth, it is all revealing.

BBC BAGGAGE VIDEO (http://news.bbc.co.uk/player/nol/newsid_7320000/newsid_7320800/7320868.stm?bw=bb&mp=wm&asb=1&news=1&bbcws=1)

The sight of all those bags brings my mind back to when I visited Auschwitz, piles of bags that told their own story of a repressive regime, with single minded arrogance in pursuit of their own agenda.

Those piles of bags at T5 will equally haunt those responsible.......

Do not deny the holocaust, do not deny that there are somewhere in excess of 15,000 bags languishing at heathrow as we speak. Indeed Hartington they are actually BA figures, the media believe if you add another 25% to BA figures (as they have been known to under report problems) you may have a real idea of how many bags are apart from their rightful owners.

WW and team for :mad: sake have some dignity and resign. We'll forget the little party you all had at Waterworld while the sh1t hit the fan, Lets call that your leaving bash....

Goodbye, bon voyage.

[overstress]

BAEngineering: no-one can deny your dedication to your self-appointed task of complete denigration of BA. I work for BA as well and I share the embarrassment caused by the inadequacy of our management.

But I think your reference to the holocaust has gone just a tad too far! Why not take a break for the day and go out for a good walk in the fresh air? Who knows, when you come back,

a) you might have a sense of perspective

and

b) there might be something new to comment on!

[Mr A Tis]

Is it not true that last summer BA had mountains of peoples baggage,that they shipped them by containers to Europe to be sorted ? So, we should not be too surprised that BA struggle to carry pax & bags on the same flight.
Is it also not true that BA are the world leader in "ghost flights", where longhaul aircraft operate, but without pax? What happened to those halcyon days of BOAC ?
Since BA dumped on the regions, most of us north of Watford rely on KLM, Lufty, Emirates etc to get us where we want to go. You're welcome to BA / T5 - its all yours.

[FlightCosting]

Hometown wrote: "Read this on another forum , haven't had it confirmed as yet but good to see the inter terminal rivalry is as strong as ever"

Glad to hear that things do not change in BA. I remeber when I worked For BA when it was formed in the early 70's That there was not only rivalry between the Overseas division (Old BOAC) and the European division ( BEA), If you wanted to call overseas division in T3 from European division in T1 you had to call via an outside line!

I am not a fan of BA ( I left in 1974 to go to BCAL) But although WW and his bunch of Mismangers are responsible for a lot of the cock-up in T5, There seems to be silence on the part that the Mañana crowd at BAA has had to play. You can not really lay broken toilets and lifts and car parking problems at the feet of BA. IT is the responsibilty of BAA - most probably cheap second had spanish crap installations to save a few pennies

[Bobbsy]

mickjoebill wrote:

What *is* curious is why they didnt show the bag being loaded on the aircraft. This would have added a few minutes to the journey and further underpinned their assertion that it takes an age for bags to get from checkin to hold.

Once the bag was stacked with others in the container, unless Sky were VERY lucky there'd no longer be a shot available when it was loaded on the plane--there's every chance the lens would be pressed up against the next suitcase and, once closed, the inside of the container would be dark.

If that wasn't a staged demo though, there are sure precious few other suitcases in the system.

Bob

[llondel]

I was wondering how their suitcase camera complied with the "please turn off all electronic devices" directive for takeoff - active electronics in the hold, whatever next?

[BAengineering]

Dear Overstress,

I accept that you may feel the holocaust reference a tad too far, my reference merely stated for the visualisation associated with piles of suitcases. That each has a very graphic tale of it's own to tell. This as an aid to Hartington who seems to suggest that the media are overhyping the matter. That there were not 15,000 bags in a pile at LHR struck me as being very similiar to the Nazi propaganda that also used denial as a diffusing method to divert attention away from the real depth of that despicable situation.

I of course am not suggesting the T5 situation is on any level comparable to what happened in concentration camps during the holocaust. I will however reiterate and believe IMHO that both situations do draw parallels.

Repression against humanity can occur in many guises, the misery that the current regime at BA, which I sure you will concur, has brought upon its staff is just one such example. It is widely reported that 'morale' is low at BA, it has been for sometime. With our Pilots about to strike and cabin crew too, what the heck is going on.

No I won't retract or relax, as maybe unlike you I feel passionate about BA, it is tragic and will have considerable and significant impact on the lives of some 50,000 + staff if things continue as they are.

Now I'm off out to do some work, (no time for a walk) they (BA) might have banned PPRUNE from within BA computer systems, but they can't stop us bringing in our own PDA's. Wow the wonder of modern 3g technology, unrestricted and uncensored media anytime you like. Oh that reminds me, another similarity with the BA propaganda/media team has with the Nazi regime. They believe they can restrict the truth with censorship. I've held back on that subject till now, what on earth do they think they are doing banning the BBC and Sky from the terminals!!!!! What complete amateurs....... Fascist bunch.

One last thing, I don't (correct me if I’m wrong) believe I have denigrated BA; I have been vocal about the competence of our leadership team. Anyway, even if I did, I certainly wouldn't be alone on this or any other forum I have taken the time to visit. Certainly if you remember the staff survey's conducted by MORI at BA over the last few years. I can recall our management castigating us over the results; one in particular sticks in my mind.

A majority of BA staff (60%) were likely to give a negative response when questioned whether they though BA was a good airline. Speaks volumes really Overstress, I think it might be you that is out of kilt with the reality of the situation. So take a printout of my comments, go for a long walk and mull them over, you know I speak the truth.

Love and peace to all
:ok:

[Seat62K]

At least one poster has argued that poor senior management at BA is nothing new. I agree. Consider at the following:
The alliance with United
The alliance with US Air
Go
Four Corners
TAT/Air Liberte
DBA
I could go on.
P.S. For anyone emphasising the Ferrovial angle, remember that the problems with BAA pre-date the change in ownership. Terminal 4 at Barajas shows what a showcase new terminal should be like (operated by AENA, of course).

[YouNeverStopLearning]

The T5 problems were caused 90% by HAL/BAA, not BA, but BA should have checked.
Don't know if the facts below have been circulated yet 'cos the other thread is too long. I have friends everywhere at LHR:

1. At the last minute HAL/BAA changed the car parking arrangement for staff but didn't communicate it to anyone other than publishing a new timetable for N5/N1: N2 was now only for contractors so as there were very few contractors left it was 90% empty on 27th. N1 buses only ran from 0630 to 1330 so no use to majority of staff who are shift workers. Observant staff [not management] tried to use N5, which filled up well before 0700, no-one could park, gridlock occurred, staff queuing in cars got upset, police had to be called as a riot nearly took place, staff ordered to park in N1. Extra buses laid for N1 turned up only to discover that their "electronics" would not let them into N1, so buses got gridlocked in entrance to N1. Queue of buses couldn’t reverse because the staff cars waiting to get in were now gridlocked trying to get into N1. Result? 80% of staff for T5 were over 2 hours late into T5.
2. HAL staff security entrance is inadequate even when things are running smoothly. So you can imagine what happened when all these late staff turned up at within a short time frame. With respect to the bigger picture HAL have misanalyses the staff numbers per unit time at the busy periods during shift start times so delays to staff arriving on-post continue for ever because it was built wrong. No more space to neither put any more staff entrances nor expand what’s already there.
3. HAL had not processed most of the requests for the BA staff that needed to logon to the check-in system in T5. But BA should have checked.
4. Because of BA’s staff “thinning” in the last 10 years, baggage handlers and check-in could not be spared in large enough numbers to stay current on the new training and equipment for T5. So they either forgot or are so rusty that they can’t do their job in T5. Furthermore there were no “experts” on the tarmac to help direct or assist staff and that’s why the baggage problems persist. BA currently operates a combination of “just-in-time”, “downsizing”, “lean-and-thin” management philosophies. Unfortunately the rest of the world got rid of these flawed US techniques of 10 years ago.
5. The entire T5 “system” worked up to a point; it was never stressed tested to maximum capacity for hours because HAL thought they would “creep” up to that point over time as currently T5A is not supposed to be full. Unfortunately for HAL the staff arrival delays into T5 causing the baggage backlog on the first morning took HAL to this point within a few hours.
6. Above point about T5A: anyone notice that there appears to be a sample of destinations in T5? Some short/medium/long haul. Deliberate cautious planning or customers being used as live system testers, allegedly. Strange how this wasn’t the “big bang” that T4 was…
7. Why no criticism of HAL by BA? Because BA were suppose to have thoroughly test T5 months ago…
8. It is still a mystery why the “Fast” bag drops don’t work.

In conclusion, 90% of all the problems are caused by HAL. But BA 10% fault didn’t excuse them from checking HAL.

[mickjoebill]

Once the bag was stacked with others in the container, unless Sky were VERY lucky there'd no longer be a shot available when it was loaded on the plane--there's every chance the lens would be pressed up against the next suitcase and, once closed, the inside of the container would be dark.


Assuming Sky only had funds to splash out on a short haul flight I assumed the bag would have been hand loaded onto the aircraft, thus providing a nice exterior shot as it traveled up the conveyor?

Yes, its not quite clear if it was a test day although the passenegrs in the que have a lot of luggage and look the part....

No mention was made of the date the bag took its trip which is strange.


Mickjoebill

[Basil]

Back in the 90s I remarked to an eng manager that 'just-in-time' was not a great philosophy to apply to spares holdings.
They achieved the once and for all advantage of reducing spares holdings and then, for instance, B744 at LHR requires spare and it has to come from LGW at short notice.
Result? Delay!
Too many short term prima donnas trying to make a name for themselves.

[BAengineering]

THere is already a thread set up for this discussion, please feel free to use it. It's the poular one with in excess of 70,000 views and 33 pages of posts.

Oh, your so wrong about the 90% BAA's fault, do you work for BA at waterside? BAA provided a building, working as they state. Whilst not completely in the clear they are no way virtually wholly responsible for 'Terminal Thursday'.

Try 100% BA's fault, they shouldn't of moved if it wasn;t ready.

I find it so amusing now the BBC breakfast clip last week the day of the Queen opening T5. Head of BAA and BA CEO shaking hands and beaming into each others eyes! Dermot O'Leary saying 'I bet they'll be using that shot many times'. How right he has become.

BAA were happy to hand over as it was substantally ready, Willie Walsh was happy to accept. THerefore as the man said himself, he is 100% responsible...

[egbt]

BA currently operates a combination of “just-in-time”, [..] management philosophies. Unfortunately the rest of the world got rid of these flawed US techniques of 10 years ago.

No they have not, JIT at least is still alive well and delivering the goods in most successful manufacturing companies and some others. BUT it’s not appropriate when switching on a major facility and arguably not in a time & service critical service industry.

At a time like this you plan for the worst case, over train (if that’s possible) and flood the place with staff, trainers, management, engineers, IT people (who can at least help people use the systems) and anyone else who might be able to help. Oh yes, and you work out your media plan in case of disaster in advance.

[FAStoat]

Taking a point from an earlier thread, Hubris is an excellent word.When Hubris is present,Nemesis then reacts with judgement,and finally Ate cuts the string of life.Thats how the Ancient Greeks viewed it.Will Willy Wonka fall on his sword,or take Hemloch??

[CaptJ]

Quite coincidently I was travelling via T1 on 27th. So I thought I might return via a later flight and go see the fanatstic T5.
On landing at 845 the long queue of aircraft trying to get on stand a T5 was not a good sign. They were backed up on the taxi way to T3.

A few things that are wrong/went wrong with T5 that haven't been mentioned as far as I have seen. -


Tubes to T5 are not sufficiently frequent.
The tube service to T5 collapsed completely in the late afternoon.
The landside connection to/from T4 is a nightmare. No clear instructions, misleading train information, and it takes over half an hour at the very best.
Moving between Tube and HEX platforms at T5 is not as easy as it should be.
This is a holiday period and large numbers of travellers were confused about transport arrangements. Just pity the poor novice connecting from T4 to T5.
Not enough instructions and some signs far too small. ex the HEX and Tube directions on the departure level.

[towerview]

With Lufthansa, at least the delayed bag arrived by taxi same day, if you were not on the last flight into UK, or next day.

How much does 15,000 bags cost to return, and who pays in this case?

[BAengineering]

FaStoat,

I think you were refering to my post in which I did complement the UK media on their use of the word Hubris, I had to look it up myself, I must admit, not that smart, just an Average Aeronautical engineer in a boiler suit!

I like your further investigation, you are indeed correct with regard the connection between Hubris and nemesis, the following is a quote I obtained from a Holocaust article;

The Holocaust: Christian and Jewish Responses

ALICE L. ECKARDT

'The man of hubris does not escape nemesis, there is judgment'

Now that my dear Overstress neatly ties in my earlier connection between this current situation and events of the 1940's. They all include 'Men of Hubris'. Judgement is comming at BA.

Thanks FaStoat for the lead and education

[GrumpyOldFart]

One or two people have risen (slightly) to Walsh's defence, along the lines of "knock him down and he'll bounce right up again, and fix the problem."

While the ability to bounce back, and the tenacity to fix problems, are laudable qualities, these supporters are missing one major point.

For the sake of the passengers, the staff, the shareholders, and the very existence of the company, there should have been no need to 'bounce back.'

Walsh should have got it right the first time. He didn't.

[brakedwell]

http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c32/sedgwickjames/Laughing.jpg

[randomair]

HEATHROW TERMINAL 5 DISRUPTION - VIRGIN ATLANTIC FLIGHTS RUNNING NORMALLY
Virgin Atlantic flights are unaffected by the ongoing disruption involving BA flights at Heathrow Terminal 5.

Virgin Atlantic's new Terminal 3 features fast and seamless Check-In for all passengers via the new Virgin Atlantic Zone A Check-In area, and a new private security corridor for Upper Class and Flying Club Gold Card passengers - who are able to whizz through the new Upper Class Wing and into the Clubhouse in minutes.

[BAengineering]

I love these 'photoshop' dudes with a humourous edge, very old joke revived to spectacular effect, niceone

[lexoncd]

The sooner star alliance get T1 sorted then BA have a challenge from the regions. Itæs fine saying longhaul are not being cancelled but when you miss a connection in either direction due to a late or cancelled flight then what? It's no use saying do you want to travel with hand luggage only when going on a cruise?

It appears over 50% on the MAN flights have or will be cancelled in the previous and coming days.

The SNP are calling for an inquiry as to why so many domestic flights have suffered. Sir Menzies Campbell collapsed whilst on a bus waiting at T5. After being taken to hospital he continued his journey home by rail. I'm sure he'll have something to say.

No gong for Wilie and his chums for a year or two now.....

Come on BA get back to the old BA we were proud of and that Johny Foreigner would go out of his way to fly with rather than now go out of his way not to fly with.....

[Tigs2]

Come on BA get back to the old BA we were proud of and that Johny Foreigner would go out of his way to fly with rather than now go out of his way not to fly with.....

That is not going to happen, within the next 10 years at least. The damage done to BA has been huge. It has been on the slippery slope for some time but this takes the biscuit. I feel sorry for all of the hard working staff on/and around the aircraft that try to do the best for the company, and who are not in control of any of the circumstances that have led to this shambles.

2012 will be the ultimate laugh and a half. Does anyone seriously think we have the management skill to be ready for the olympics??:}

[PAXboy]

Jerry Coe... it was middle- and upper-management in both companies who failed. And that’s mainly due to a malady that has been sweeping the world for twenty years or more – the awful, abysmal, MBA.

So these newly-minted MBAs are then snapped up into management positions, by other MBAs already in place at the big corporations – and the cycle of unknowing incompetence is thus perpetuated.

Yep, beautifully put but Sunfish had the experience and honesty to say (as an MBA himself): "Any decent MBA school will send you off with a reminder that an MBA is a licence to learn management."

The other side of this coin is that, from 1988 onwards, I watched older managers (in their 60s) retiring the 50-somethings and hiring these young guns in their 20s. The seniors did not have MBAs, they had old fashioned degrees and decades of experience in learning the ropes of the company and the world. Why did they start retiring the middle group? Save on pensions? Think that, by having young boys and girls in posts of 'management' that they would bring 'new life' and 'new ideas' into the biz?

Speaking as one who spent several years cleaning up the project mess made by others in the 25+ years I was in Telecomms and IT, this disaster shows that BA has a corporate management problem. It has been talked about for years and many threads in here and the press have given clues. This project was too big for the children of BA management. Better bring back the grown ups.

The really interesting point for discussion is this: How many other companies around the world are in the same position? Running along more-or-less OK because the staff are holding it together, but a big event is too much and the staff can no longer prevent the management being exposed?

[beamender99]

I watched older managers (in their 60s) retiring the 50-somethings and hiring these young guns in their 20s. The seniors did not have MBAs, they had old fashioned degrees and decades of experience in learning the ropes of the company and the world. Why did they start retiring the middle group? Save on pensions? Think that, by having young boys and girls in posts of 'management' that they would bring 'new life' and 'new ideas' into the biz?

Speaking as one who spent several years cleaning up the project mess made by others in the 25+ years I was in Telecomms and IT, this disaster shows that BA has a corporate management problem. It has been talked about for years and many threads in here and the press have given clues. This project was too big for the children of BA management. Better bring back the grown ups.


Then add in the "Seagulls". They fly in with a big show, crap and quickly fly away leaving the next one to try to clean up the mess.

I have lost count how many times I heard skilled seniors say " been there, got the teashirt , it will not work. I will keep quiet and cover my back cos if I say anything it will be flagged as negative thinking"
The BA kiddy tails was the perfect example of no one prepared to say "NO! This is rubbish. STOP"

I got out early to save my sanity.

A message for WW.

"Management, at its risk, ignores the guy doing the job!"

Make a little sign with this message on both sides, then pop it on your desk perhaps with a similar " The buck stops here" sign

[Two-Tone-Blue]

I'm not going to join in the assorted bashing exercises, because I know not enough about the facts. I'm just a paying punter in this context, who isn't flying MaxJet any more, for well-known reasons.

However ... I'm booked with BA, LHR-IAD, in about 8 weeks' time.

Notionally a T5 departure ... is that likely to happen?
Or is the "remain at T4 for now" [another Hell-hole] option more likely?

[ILoadMyself]

I presume that this link http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CsJvdS4Y5F8 from post #605 is supposed to link to a clip of Master Kirkwood's cringe-making statement on Terminal Thursday?

I get a pink line with the message "This video is not available in your country."

When did YouTube start region-blocking? :mad: :ugh:

[pasoundman]

ILoadMyself
When did YouTube start region-blocking?

No idea, it's news to me they do it too.

This one of Wee Willie has been blocked too.

http://youtube.com/results?search_query=terminal+5+walsh&search_type=

Click on "BA chief on T5 teething woes"

[No longer ATC]

So they are censoring youtube now ,as well as their own staff forums????

[TwinAisle]

All the video links are working for me - based in Cardiff.

[beamender99]

British Airways Chief Executive Willie Walsh has said the baggage handling system at Heathrow's Terminal 5 is now "generally working well".

He said BA now had 400 volunteers working to clear the backlog of 15,000 bags which has built up at the airport. "We are making every effort to reunite bags with their owners," he said.

A little more info at:-
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/7321564.stm
Page last updated at 14:43 GMT, Sunday, 30 March 2008

[beamender99]

See my earlier report of this Youtube situation

and

I posted the links to these item on the BBC which do work.

I think it maybe to do with copyright.

[BAengineering]

Couldn't help laugh at the title of earlier post which read;

Gareth Kirkwood - Youtube, shouldn't that be

You tube Gareth Kiirkwood?

And if you missed the door slamming excercise it's here in all it's gory glory on you guessed it you tube

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9vlnb_sulOw&feature=related

Oh all links work from where i'm sitting, in engineering eastbase at Heathrow

[BA_IM]

I check with a friend overseas and http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CsJvdS4Y5F8 is just this one that you can view over here http://news.bbc.co.uk/player/nol/newsid_7310000/newsid_7317500/7317579.stm?bw=bb&mp=wm&asb=1&news=1&bbcws=1
So wanted to watch him running away again

[beamender99]

And if you missed the door slamming excercise it's here in all it's gory glory on you guessed it you tube

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9vlnb...eature=related (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9vlnb_sulOw&feature=related)

Oh all links work from where i'm sitting, in engineering eastbase at Heathrow


But it fails were I am sitting just 8 miles from Hatton Cross

Perhaps it can be found on the BBC somewhere.

[Xeque]

Is it possible that, at last, it’s all finally come home to roost?
It has taken an enormous and very public corporate management failure to finally expose it.
This week British Airways, a major British corporation where one would expect the cream of management talent to reside was brutally exposed as a totally inadequate organization completely lacking in any kind of management expertise at the highest levels.
Alongside it is an equally large and allied organization (BAA) that has also been tried, tested and found to be completely wanting.
How is it that Britain, once the centre of the industrial revolution and the leader in world industry has declined to such a pitiful state?
Several reasons but let us concentrate on the demise of the apprenticeship system caused mainly by corporate greed and government inadequacy.
For many years boys and girls, fresh from school, were given a thorough training in every aspect of their chosen industry. This was paid for by industry itself. Not that it actually cost industry a great deal. Many parents supported their children during the apprenticeship process, wages paid to apprentices were minimal and for the most part the ‘book learning’ was provided as a cost sharing exercise between the companies themselves.
I went through such a process. When I left school I initially worked for an insurance company as a junior clerk. The first thing the company arranged was day release to attend classes that would eventually lead to me obtaining the necessary qualifications to continue a career in insurance.
As it turned out I chose an alternate career path and went to sea with the Orient Line – a forerunner of today’s airlines carrying passengers to Australia. I was just 17 when I left the UK on my first 6 month voyage to Australia and back. Over the next two years, as a Cadet, I worked in every department on the ship – the laundry and linen room, printers shop, storerooms, butchers shop and galley. I washed dishes in the plate house, I served tables in the dining room, I made up passenger cabins, I stood watches in the engine room and on the ships bridge.
After 2 years in a boiler suit I was promoted to a (very) junior officer.
Colin Marshall of British Airways was also an Orient Line Cadet and underwent exactly the same training.
I later put my training to good use in the deserts of Saudi Arabia. Colin Marshall went on to do great things for British Airways. Such a pity that all the good he was able to do along with Lord King has gone to waste.
Compare that to Willie Walsh and his like. Sure, he was a pilot which means that he was capable of accepting ultimate responsibility (I assume he did make it to the left hand seat). But being a pilot does not mean that you actually know what goes into the day to day running of an airline.
Did he spend a couple of months (each) working on check-in, humping baggage, dealing with passenger complaints, storing, provisioning and cleaning aircraft? Did he actually spend time as a member of the cabin crew? Did he spend time in Operations learning the complexities of scheduling and routing, fuelling and clearances?
I think not and in that massive, missing level of hands dirty experience he will probably be joined by the majority of the people he surrounds himself with as ‘managers’.
This is a norm and it is little wonder that the people at the front-end of many industries despise management so much.
Little wonder that Terminal 5 happened.

[ramphawk]

Baggage has never moved so fast

The baggage system can deal with 12,000 bags per hour. It will move your baggage as fast as 30mph on a total of 18km of belts. The long conveyer belts and intelligent baggage carts running on miles of rails mean that your bag can reach Baggage Reclaim in around 15 minutes

Road tested to perfection

We took the best baggage systems from airports such as Copenhagen, Amsterdam and Hong Kong. We combined them in one design and road tested it to perfection. The result is a fast, safe, reliable system you can have confidence in.

Talk about misleading your poor old customers! This is still on the BA website if you care to look. I suppose it should not come of much surprise that the claim about road testing to perfection is still there.:ugh:

The baggage system may well be owned by BAA, but it looks like BA also appear to have taken an active part in selecting and specifying the system.

http://www.terminal5.ba.com/en/arrivals/baggage-reclaim/

[manx crab]

Fwiw, arrived yesterday from MIA at terminal 5 and actually had my bags delivered within 20min of landing which surprised me as from the reports I had heard I thought we would never see them again. The place iteself is a shambles though, toilets not working/unfinished,broken panels,(mind you they are the cleanest toilets in Baa:D) unfinished fittings and walls (did the opening date come as a surprise) rubbish strewn about as they have no bins. The stupid shuttle with all those escalators to use.
The bus terminal is unfinished with the staff having no idea where the stops are and the drivers even less so, no passenger information at all.

But then went to the glories of Gatwick South Terminal. Just think Terminal 5 will be as good as that when BAA get the problems sorted:eek::{

[ramphawk]

Perhaps much of the flack heading BA's way is down to the fact that T5 is a single user terminal. In a multi user terminal the terminal owner BAA would get much more criticism, but in this case BA has had a a unique opportunity (at least in the UK) to influence everything about the experience their passengers are exposed to.

[derekvader]

I'm impressed with the BA staff that 400 people have volunteered to help sort things out today. If my management had mucked things up so badly as BA's has I'm not sure I'd be rushing to save their skins/bonuses.

It's quite telling though that four days on, BA management still seem to be blaming the complexities of the baggage system for the continuing delays; at the end of the day it's baggage, how hard can it be to learn? Note - I'm not intending to say there that the baggage handlers are stupid - what I mean is how insanely complex have they made this baggage system, for something which, really, is quite a simple concept - place labelled bags in the right box - even if there are several hundred boxes. After all thousands of airports all over the world mostly manage to do it every single day, including at airport terminals which are way busier than T5 currently is. Why do seemingly hundreds of baggage handlers need to "log on" to the baggage system anyway? I'd love to know what that's all about. Basically it seems to me that if the baggage system is so complicated that it takes 4+ days for everyone to learn it then they probably should have just spent the same money on a small army of people to staff a large room the length of the terminal and manually carry/trolley bags from piles on the "check in" side to piles on the "planes" side. And the arrivals baggage should be even easier - carry by hand or truck/trolley from "planes" side to an appropriately selected passenger pickup belt.

Anyway for all my criticism of BA(A) the last few days I think we should cut them some slack from tomorrow. It's clear that the idiot executives still aren't planning to fall on their swords despite their ridiculous performances like running away from the press, so no point in going on about it. The company staff as a whole seems to be trying to recover and get the terminal working so I think it is time to see if they can do it. If it's all still broken next weekend then we can point and laugh at the terminal building as clearly being unfit for purpose.

As for the people on TV etc saying "I'm never travelling BA ever again!!" I think, for most of the ordinary "consumer" customer paying for their own tickets they'll stick to their self-imposed exile until BA's next big flight sale. The business customers are going to be incredibly hard to tempt back though - they just can't be risking arriving without their business luggage/equipment or arriving late for meetings. Whether BA can survive without so many business customers and the entire business relegated back to the "Go" model it'll be interesting to watch.

What I'd like to know is if BAA are brave enough to put the fingerprint thing back on the agenda or is that well and truly buried now!

[CorkEICK]

It is interesting to note that once BA cancel a flight e.g. BA1404 to Manchester this evening at 1940hrs it is wiped completely from the BAA flt info on their website instead of appearing as cancelled. So if you look at T5 flt departure info it looks like all flts are operating albeit with delays which is not really the true scenario.

[Bus429]

The place iteself is a shambles though, toilets not working/unfinished,broken panels,(mind you they are the cleanest toilets in Baa) unfinished fittings and walls (did the opening date come as a surprise) rubbish strewn about as they have no bins. The stupid shuttle with all those escalators to use.


Well, at least T5 will be as consistently poor as all the other BAA terminals. Have BAA managers not visited AMS, Changi or other airports to see how it can be done? I'm not suggesting these airports approach perfection but I know that AMS' toilets are cleaned regularly and thoroughly. BAA managers: WHY IS IT SO F:mad:ING DIFFICULT FOR YOU? ARE YOU SO OBSESSED WITH TARGETS, BONUSES OR WHATEVER OTHER MANAGEMENT INCENTIVES YOU GET THAT YOU COULDN'T CARE LESS FOR THE CUSTOMERS (BY WHICH I MEAN PASSENGERS, NOT SODDING BA!). WHAT A BUNCH OF T:eek:TS!

BTW, do any any BA or BAA managers contribute to PPRuNe? We'd love your input.:ok:

[Joetom]

400 Extra Staff to sort out the problems in T5 !!!

Just to mention that these staff are getting double the normal Over Time rate, no surprise when you see all the new cars in the staff car parks at T5, good luck to the staff I say.

[Re-Heat]

... it was middle- and upper-management in both companies who failed. And that’s mainly due to a malady that has been sweeping the world for twenty years or more – the awful, abysmal, MBA.
If they recruited MBAs, they might have some motivated, sensible people who could get things done. Unfortunately I am not aware that BA recruit any MBAs at all - possibly symptomatic of an arrogant internal attitude to people not "made at BA"?

If you had ever met an MBA, you would generally realise how bright and intelligent they are, and what a huge ability they have to achieve. I don't see that in the current operation...

[45378]

Flew back from MAD last night with BA.
I never thought I 'd say this (having suffered with the place over the years) but was mighty relieved to be told that we were heading for T1.
It all ran v smoothly - we arrived in baggage reclaim at the same time as the bags. Brill.

[BAengineering]

45378 - what were you flying into T1 LHR when you live in congleton?

Sorry to pry, you should stick to the nice MAN regional you have, your lucky BA pulled out of there years ago, cut a swathe of jobs and run.

Probably in the longrun MAN better without BA

[coopervane]

It amazes me how much of the blame has been put on BA. Although they must take some of it on the chin, the BAA seems to have escaped quite lightly.

BAA's track record in doing anything right must have lead to expectation of disaster.

So who is mainly to blame?

The building is BAA,s responsibility.

The security is BAA,s responsibility.

Accepting the building and all its systems from the construction contractors is BAA's responsibility.

The building was completed on time and on budget is the claim but it is only completed when everything has been tested and all the troubleshooting has been carried out.

Whoever was responsible for the handover must be made accountable and made to pay with resignation without the usual six figure payoff.

What do you think????!!!

Coop & Bear

[TartinTon]

Re-Heat, there is some truth in the whole MBA thing. BA actively recruits MBAs/Grads of all sorts and fast-tracks them way beyond their experiential levels with alarming speed. You therefore get fresh-faced know-it-alls in positions of responsibility making stupid decisions based on text book case studies completely ignoring experienced (but non-MBA) members of staff.
The result is invariably the type of shambles you see at T5 while the wunderkind who caused the cock-up in the first place will undoubtedly be promoted even further, until they decide there's a chance they might get rumbled, at which time they will jump ship with a glowing CV to some Middle-Eastern airline where they will apply what they have learned to the benefit of their new carrier leaving the previous one with the mess to sort out while making a tax-free mint at the same time!!

[45378]

Reply to BA engineering.

We were coming back from Jerez - XRY - now that is a lovely airport - think 70s EDI.

So that gave us a routing via MAD, and daft old fool that I am , I still fondly believe that real airlines (like BA?) might look after you when things go wrong.

Actually Manchester's network feels as though it's getting less and less useful as the place gets more and more LCC - OK for point to point but not for anything more adventurous.

[beamender99]

TartinTon

Well stated. Unfortunately quite a few stay on and cause a lot of problems. It is easy to identify those that have come up the hard way because they have "nous" and does it show.
Trying to convince snr "managers" that their wonder recruit is talking out of their rear is difficult. Trying to stop the promotion of some of these people is even more difficult. Who is brave enough to say that you do not agree with all those previous glowing reports and this individual has reached or gone beyond their skills so park them in a corner out of harms way ?

[frangatang]

We all know LHR is a ****hole,period , and the BAA go out of their way to keep it that way. For example,walking down the finger to an aircraft at T4 there is usually a pile of rubbish strewn along the jetty as the swine at BAA dont bother to clean the bloody things. Glad to see they are keeping up the same appearance at T5.

[southern duel]

frangatang

yes but who puts the rubbish there in the first place. I think you will find its BA cabin crew abd BA's own contracted cleaners because they cant be bothered to walk 50 feet and put them in the bins that are supplied by BAA on the ramp.

why should BAA clear up after BA's mess ???????


Answer that one and think about your posting before you go into one.

[Hand Solo]

I think you'll find BAs cabin crew don't dump the rubbish as they don't clean the aircraft. Nor do the cleaners dump the rubbish as that comes off in sacks and goes down the engineering steps or rear steps to be disposed of at ground level, not on the jetty. I think frangatang refers to the general filth of discarded newspapers, food, boarding cards and all the other detritus Joe Pax discards. But thanks for the slating anyway.

[Out Of Trim]

frangatang

BAA - Outsource the cleaning to another company - It would appear that nobody actually checks if that other company gets round to carrying out such a task. :ugh:

At LGW - I've noticed that various airlines & their cleaning companies regularly dump all sorts of rubbish on the Jet-ways. It is often unidentifiable; where such detritus has originated, and consequently is left until someone reports it. BAA - say contact the airline concerned - but, without CID and forensic investigation - Nobody knows anything.

Perhaps, they should return the skips to every stand; which were withdrawn some years ago!

BAA - as the airport operator/owner should not abrogate responsibility for the cleanliness of all areas and should check several times a day that all is well. - However, we're talking about BAA here. Enough said! :rolleyes:

[BAengineering]

Hand solo, Frangatang et al,

The new line is rubbish.... Lets get back on theme. It is not BAA's fault, the chaos rests most firmly with out own lot. We are the instigators of our own making.

This MBA line, those qualified sorts, not listening to direct staff. My opinion is that they actually, genuinely think they are above and better, rather than on the same team pulling the same way.

I have respect for a handful of managers in BA engineering, they are the ones I know best. The rest and their countless gaffes and :mad: ups are just brushed aside. They appear amazed that the direct staff are never enamoured when they arrive with a new plan, project, threat!

Disturbingly I don;t think there is an answer to the problem, you will find most staff have gone past carig, they just turn up and clock the 8hrs as easy as poss. Things used to be different, staff used to arrive and put in 120%, pull out the stops when need be. With your staff on board and contributing you can do anything, indeed whatever the issue was on thursday it could have been overcome if you had staff with a PMA.

[BAengineering]

I have been criticised for posting alot on this subject, I only visited PPRUNE to voice my general support for our Pilot community at BA. I was suitably disgusted at the way BA 'management' was conducting matters.

Then this sh1t happened, on the former site of a sh1t farm. I admit I have spent much time, for free on this site. Despite the lack of financial renumeration I feel it is a valuable use of my time.

Getting to the point - I cannot for the life of me understand where MR Willie and Co managed to obtain 400 volunteers? And what does this volunteering entail? (is there some sort of payment for this, some reward?) Are these people, giving their time for free? Whilst it may appear to be the case, we must remember BA is not a charity.

Another thing, we hear BA quoting that there is some 15,000 bags loose at Heathrow. We also hear that we have some 400 of Willies Helpers. doing some rudamentry mathematics ( I learned it on me matamatics course when a apprentice yoof) I work out these happy helpers just have to move less than 40 bags each.

Supposing they do an 8 hr shift that breaks down to just 5 bags an hour. Not a tremedous effort you might expect, surely the mountain of bags will have been whittled to nothing today.

However we all know that none of this is the case, that this is just more of BA propoganda yarns. THere are few if any 'helpers', just those morons that have been involved in planning for this fiasco and feel guilty as sin for all the skiving they have been doing for the last few years. Can you imagine these office wallowers moving bags? Remember they are the brains of the bunch not the brawn, they are trained to direct not do.

Willie, if you want my help the answer is no, this is your sh1t, you sort it out. Oh and then you can do us all a favour and resign.

BAeng1

[BAengineering]

Saw this, the opening line on the www.flyopenskie.com (http://www.flyopenskie.com) website,

'We’re a new airline being born from the innovative minds of British Airways.'


This being the same minds that planned the T5 move, help!

[manx crab]

back quickly to the rubbish debate, its all down to GREED, BAA will only use the cheapest cleaners who then have to pay b:mad:r all to the staff who are disinterested at best. What they should do is get the best value quote. IIRC some years ago a firm started paying their workers more to clean at the airports and the standard improved considerably, guess what happened, yep they lost the contract due to the cost.

Consistently BAA airports are dirty, ill kept and overcrowded. Outsourcing does not absolve the company.

[derekvader]

Another thing, we hear BA quoting that there is some 15,000 bags loose at Heathrow. We also hear that we have some 400 of Willies Helpers. doing some rudamentry mathematics ( I learned it on me matamatics course when a apprentice yoof) I work out these happy helpers just have to move less than 40 bags each.

Aren't a lot of the "volunteers" supposedly helping out upstairs in check-in etc making people feel "happy" (and helping showing people where to go, since when I was there the signage was extremely lacking). I don't think they're all down in the baggage room.

Also, presumably dealling with the 15,000 stuck bags is more than just carrying them from A to B - I imagine it entails finding the passenger's details, calling them up, finding out where they are now, working out how to get the bag back to them, via plane, train or automobile, whatever etc. I can well imagine it being difficult to process even 5 of them an hour if the customer is at the other end of the country or the planet by now.

[southern duel]

manx crab

we are talking rubbish in the jetties which is all airline "crxp" from flights.
THE RESPONSIBILITY OF THE AIRLINE. FULL STOP.

Nxt minute you will be saying it should be the BAA who clean the aircraft

[SpeedyG]

As someone mentioned, there is this lemming like rush by all the US Carriers to abandon poor old Gatwick to the disaster which is Thiefrow!!
If I have a choice [which I certainly hunt for] it will always be Gatters and whatever carrier is there to get to my destination.
Bring back Lakers / Danned-Air!! / Air Europa / Braniff and all those others, oops Richard that includes you.. forget the silly buggers at the West End of London:ugh:

[BAengineering]

Derekvader they would be happy if they could just fly with their bags.. simple really. How on earth are Willies helpers going to make them feel happy?> AS for showing people around, what the heck, why do they need that now, surely if it was needed now it was needed before, why did someone not spot this during the testing phase.

Finally are these people PAID volunteers> I need to know, I might volunteer my own services for extra money. I'd make passengers happy by telling them what a bunch of Willie wonkeroids I work for.

Make them happy, i have never heard such trite

[PAXboy]

BAengineeringDisturbingly I don't think there is an answer to the problem, you will find most staff have gone past caring, they just turn up and clock the 8hrs as easy as poss. Things used to be different ...Once again, you state what I see at many other companies. As long as things are trundling along as normal - then the mgmt and shareholders think that everything is dandy.

Then there is, a planned big event or a fire at the data centre or some other out-of-the-blue event and the staff turn to the mgmt and find what they always knew they would find - a vacuum. The warning signs have been cropping up for years and BAA is in EXACTLY the same situation.

The Independent on Sunday:
So who's to blame?

Staff arrival BAA failed to provide enough parking for employees, and with only one security checkpoint open, this led to an early bottleneck

Baggage conveyors Vanderlande Industries, contracted by BAA, provided sophisticated state-of-the-art equipment. One belt failed completely

Baggage handling Alstec's system, BAA subcontractors, made staff process bags for cancelled flights and neglect pile-up elsewhere

Training BA accused of failing to prepare staff

Customer relations BA misinformed customers on compensation, and refused to provide hotel rooms for delayed passengers.

[SpeedyG]

Oh and BA has been briefing all the outstations weeks ago NOT to use loose-load in pit 5 for baggage, it ALL had to be containeised!! Pray tell me where is the [lack] of human involement in handling?

Also the logic in holding an aircraft past departure time to load strollers and all that gate rubbish into a can before you can close up? Or are we to leave it all behind??

Shame we lost all the airline trained personnel in Management

[manx crab]

err no southern duel,

Presumably BAA charge airlines to use the facilities and will provide a means of disposal. The paying public don't give a rats a:mad: who's rubbish it is they want, expect and should have it cleaned away, The amount of crap left on aircraft by SLF amazes me, usually the further back you go the cleaner it is:rolleyes:

A simple solution would be to ban airlines from Heathrow if they dump rubbish in the jetties but BAA are far too greedy to do that and it does not excuse the fact that the rest of the airport is filthy.

[Hand Solo]

we are talking rubbish in the jetties which is all airline "crxp" from flights.
THE RESPONSIBILITY OF THE AIRLINE. FULL STOP.

Hand on heart I can honestly say I don't know when I last saw any airlines waste on a jetty at LHR. We're talking about all the crxp that accumulates up from the airbridge, all the stuff the public dump as they get off or on the aircraft, the old newspapers, the chewing gum, the sweet wrappers. We're not talking about poly bags full of stuff discarded by cleaners, we're talking about the general junk that BAA should clean and don't, just like they don't fix the carpets, or the broken airside doors, or the card readers.

[118.70]

I think there were interesting moments about the responsiveness and customer focus of BAA management revealed at the Transport Committee "Future of BAA" hearings. Particularly relevant were the thoughts that the top of BAA seemed unaware of the problems of airline and terminal staff getting through security to work airside:

http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm200708/cmselect/cmtran/119/7112801.htm

Q212 Clive Efford: How do you respond to the charge that you have not listened to the industry in terms of the facilities you provide at airports and that where you have agreed changes or improvements at airports with the airlines those changes have not been implemented?

Mr Nelson: I think the opening of Terminal 5 on 27 March on time will represent the capability of this business both in its ambition to deliver construction of the highest world-class quality, and I also recognise that we have a difficult job meeting, for example in Heathrow, the competing demands for infrastructure of 94 airlines, but I am pleased to say that going forward for the next five years we have largely come to an agreement on a transformation plan for Heathrow which amounts to some 3.6 billion across those airlines. So my sense is that actually we are meeting the demands as put to us by airlines.

Q239 Mr Wilshire: I think I have made my point. Yes, I do have some questions, but I think it is important to get the record straight. Could I just start with the situation of Terminal 5 coming on-line. Is there not a tendency for all the shortcomings, irrespective of who is responsible for them, to say, "It will all be alright on the night when Terminal 5 opens"? Is there not a danger of raising expectations that that might be a solution for more things than it will be?

Mr Nelson: I think the right way to consider Terminal 5 is step one. We are as clear as anybody that Heathrow needs to be transformed. Terminal 5 at a stroke will reduce the numbers of passengers going through Terminal 1 by about 50%, the numbers of passengers going through Terminal 4 by about 75%, and that will level out to 50, and the numbers of passengers going from Terminal 2 by about 15%. That will provide from April very considerable relief to passengers in physical terms. It needs also to be understood that Terminal 3 will actually get busier; it will go up in passenger terms by about 10%, which I think plays to the point that it is not just Terminal 5, it is the development of the whole campus in physical terms, and that is what our plans are in front of the Regulator. It is the development of the whole campus that needs to be delivered.
Q240 Mr Wilshire: Rather a lot of people are aware of the problems at Heathrow. Which of those problems do you consider are your responsibility and which are the problems you consider are the responsibilities of somebody else?

Mr Nelson: Before I go into this, it is important to say that I see no upside from the blame game and I personally have steered well clear of the media. However, it does need to be articulated that BAA controls, let us call it two of the six major factors in customer satisfaction. We control central security and we control the retail and the catering. We do not control check-in. We provide the desk, but we do not control the manning of the check-in.

Q241 Chairman: However, Mr Nelson, most of the evidence we have got has been about exactly those bits which you control.

Mr Nelson: With respect, Chairman, there is enough evidence also to suggest, both anecdotally and on websites, that check-in queues have been considerable as well.

Q242 Chairman: So we are not in the blame game, we are just saying the others are as bad as us?

Mr Nelson: I accept that point, but immigration is Home Office and baggage reclaim—the time it takes for the bag to be transported from the plan onto the reclaim belt is under the control of the airlines handling agents. We are responsible for the kit. Finally, punctuality, which with an airport as full as Heathrow can be anything from weather-related to schedule-related issues.

Q250 Mrs Ellman: American Airlines gave us evidence this afternoon about problems experienced by their staff getting through controls at the airports. Is that a problem you are already aware of?

Mr Nelson: I am aware that on occasion we do have queues going through the staff checkpoint. It is not just airlines, it will be our own staff as well and any other people working air-side. Again, that is not a problem we want to take lightly and we must make sure that is improved.

Q252 Chairman: Mr Nelson, we were told that crew have been held up as long as an hour. If you hold up an aircraft crew, the aircraft cannot take off on time, it looses its slots and it is in considerable difficulty. Is that true, and are you aware of it? If you are aware of it, how often does it happen?

Mr Nelson: I will check the statistics and get back to you.

Q253 Chairman: Mr Nelson, surely in the talks you have had with the airlines they cannot have been silent on this matter. Are you aware of any of the crews having difficulty getting through security and being delayed with an effect upon their flight time?

Mr Nelson: Chairman, I was certainly aware of the intensity of the problem in and around 10 August and beyond. I have not been made aware of this recently and the issues we tend to talk about in regular strategic dialogue with airlines is around control posts and less around the staff security.

[A4]

Just a few questions:

1. Who in their right mind would now book shorthaul with BA? At the first sign of any trouble - catering, fog, general incompetance - the first thing that gets canned is the shorthaul, to protect the longhaul (profits).

2. I'm a bit older,and wiser, than I used to be and I cannot believe that anyone would volunteer to help dig these moronic, bonus chasing "managers" out of the $hit. I know it's not nice for the pax but do these volunteers, magnanimous as they are, think the to$$ers at the top will recognise the true worth of their efforts?

3. A previous poster said stop complaining about Kirkwood, it won't change anything (or words to that effect). DO NOT STOP. THIS GUY DESERVES TO BE HOUNDED OUT OF OFFICE SOLEY ON HIS "STATEMENT PERFORMANCE". These clowns cannot continually be allowed to "get away with it" and collect massive bonuses - it's vile. (see todays Sunday Times re the Northern Rock CEO :mad::ugh: Why do we put up with it?

This country is doomed.

A4 :(

[gonebutnotforgotten]

Aren't a lot of the "volunteers" supposedly helping out upstairs in check-in etc making people feel "happy" (and helping showing people where to go

Yes, and could BA really get security passes for all of them to go and help out airside on a weekend? Isn't this one of the great unspoken issues in all of this fisaco? Anyone opening a multimillion pound automated warheouse (which is what the baggage system is) would have flooded the works with systems experts on day 1 to ensure that the eventual operators pressed all the right buttons. But at an airport the dead hand of the DfT would surely make it nearly impossible to get any of them anywhere near the sharp end. There have been hints of this in previous posts (e.g. unable to bring in drinking water containers through security for the harrassed staff etc). Perhaps someone on the front line could confirm. My experience of Transec and BAA security (I retired several years ago, but post 9/11) is that they set up an impractical system of mindblowing complexity that makes honest workers (yes there are some) cheat just to get on with the show, e.g. borrowing a cleaner's ID because one's own had been zoned out due to operating through T1 for a month thereby losing T4 zone validity, and you needed it to get back inside after the outside check...). Oh, and it didn't stop several squads of armed robbers getting in either. The silence from BAA is deafening, but add that from DfT to it.

While I'm on a rant, can't we get away from this 'Lions led by Donkeys' image of BA staff and their management? Donkeys led by asses might be nearer the truth. Lets fact it, BA ramp workers, badly treated as they were, were still responsible for their own utter indifference to the job in hand, and their strict demarkation. The most common sight on arrival was a veritable army of bods lolling about while the steps stayed resolutely where they were parked awaiting the arrival of the one bloke ‘authorised’ to move them… or whatever other bit of equipment was needed. There were supposed to be new contracts for T5 which were going to introduce a new spirit of cooperation, what happened to them? Leaving it all until T5 day 1 would in itself be the height of stupidity, just one more change to have to accommodate on the big day, not to mention a lot of training to multiskill the guys (again there have been hints of that happening in the travellers tales).

I can't say I'm surprised it all went belly up, just very, very disappointed.

[Hand Solo]

1) A lot of shorthaul gets cancelled, but generally more goes.

2) Most of the volunteers are on healthy overtime rates. Nobody in their right mind would do it for nothing.

3) Right on! With you all the way on that one.

[pasoundman]

derekvader
Basically it seems to me that if the baggage system is so complicated that it takes 4+ days for everyone to learn it then they probably should have just spent the same money on a small army of people

That's what they ended up doing at Denver with another problematical baggage system that was over-complicated.

I'm as puzzled as you are why the baggage handlers need to 'log on' too. Anyone know what that's all about ? Sounds like un-necessary complication.

[pasoundman]

Re-Heat
Unfortunately I am not aware that BA recruit any MBAs at all

Ummm ... Willie Walsh has an MBA for starters !

If you had ever met an MBA, you would generally realise how bright and intelligent they are, and what a huge ability they have to achieve.

You ARE joking of course.

[CaptJ]

Does anybody remember the opening of CDG. new, futuristic, state of the art, multilevel terminal. It didn't need to be, there was plenty of space. Nonetheless, we got a high rise baggage handling nightmare. Almost anything jammed it up.
Next up, Denver. A state of the art baggage handling system which never worked and had to be replaced, delaying the opening by 12 months. At least it was tested and found wanting. In the case of T5, despite all that was said they pressed on regardless.
It's a typically British disease this. ignoring warnings. Even those warnings are becoming less frequent as it represents "negativity", currently a particularly career limiting move. The result of this corporate culture is that few middle managers or technical professionals will fight for what they believe. They simply state their objection once and leave it at that.
The powers that be continue on regardless.
The consequences we see all too plainly.
Why shouldn't they, nobody at the top of this fiasco will suffer too much.

[pasoundman]

coopervane
The building is BAA's responsibility.
The security is BAA's responsibility.

Etc ...

But it was BA's responsibility to make sure they had done the job properly !

How can broken down lifts, phones and escalators escape anyone's notice ?

[MrSoft]

1) A lot of shorthaul gets cancelled, but generally more goes.


Is that meant to make we provincial lepers feel better about it, and amend our expectations?

17th Jan, everything got chopped

Bloke jumps over the fence, everything got chopped

A4 is right. You would have to be quite literally INSANE to rely on BA for anything when connecting in from the provinces.

[pasoundman]

BAengineering
This MBA line, those qualified sorts, not listening to direct staff. My opinion is that they actually, genuinely think they are above and better, rather than on the same team pulling the same way.

I'm absolutely sure you're right. After all they've been taught that way.

The damage that management can do when it doesn't actually understand 'the job' properly is truly phenomenal. This is where the MBA really scores, because they've been educated to believe that this experience is largely unimportant.

[Avman]

It's a typically British disease this. ignoring warnings. Even those warnings are becoming less frequent as it represents "negativity", currently a particularly career limiting move.

I like the reference to negativity currently being a particularly career limiting move. However, ignoring warnings is not "typically British". There's plenty evidence of this where I work and I can assure you that managers of other prominent nationalities are just as bad.

[42psi]

pasoundman ...

I'm as puzzled as you are why the baggage handlers need to 'log on' too. Anyone know what that's all about ? Sounds like un-necessary complication.


Every bag out of a bagage system has to be scanned with a bar code reader before being placed on the truck/ULD... it's part of the baggage reconciliation requirements.

Each bag sorter needs to log into the PC for the scanner he/she is using.

It can also mean that chucking more bods in solves nothing - if there's a limited number of PC's at each sorting station all anyone extra can do is watch!!

[infrequentflyer789]

Finally are these people PAID volunteers> I need to know

Apparently, yes.


I might volunteer my own services for extra money. I'd make passengers happy by telling them what a bunch of Willie wonkeroids I work for.

maybe that's why you haven't been asked :)

you could always turn up anyway - try the old flash mob with witty t-shirt (working for someone called Willie the possibilities are numerous)... you would probably get a standing ovation from the queueing pax.

[Tigs2]

This thread is like marmite!! There are those who love BA and those who hate BA!

[frangatang]

When l was referring to all the crap in the jetty,its not from cabin crew , as they leave all the crap in the aircraft,including expensive headsets and washbags that the lazy buggers are meant to gather up after the flight. The detritus in the jetties is from accumulated crap dropped by pax over the previous week. Still , look on the bright side. An arriving pax would then be introduced to all the crap they will see on the roadside as they drive the highways and byeways of this green and pleasant land!

[Re-Heat]

Ummm ... Willie Walsh has an MBA for starters !
No, he does not. He has been misquoted as having one, but has an MSc in Management from Trinity, Dublin.

Gareth Kirkwood and Robert Boyle do however hold MBAs - one from Lancaster and one from INSEAD. Kirkwood probably won't be around for much longer though, so you can probably reduce that count of MBAs in senior management by one.

[Re-Heat]

The damage that management can do when it doesn't actually understand 'the job' properly is truly phenomenal. This is where the MBA really scores, because they've been educated to believe that this experience is largely unimportant.
Why the assassination job against MBAs? Have you actually met (m)any? It is bad management not to listen to colleagues, or to think they are "above" anyone else. Do you think these people pay upwards of £60k to unlearn common sense.

They don't. I have worked with hundreds of MBAs (literally), and can assure you that your experience of the few in BA is that of the poor managers, not the average MBA. BA do not so far as I am aware have an MBA entry programme each year.

[PAXboy]

I agree that the sweeping view against MBAs (easy target though they be) is not valid. In any company/organisation there are dedicated staff that work many more hours than they are paid for - and there those who just roll on through each day, hardly touching the sides.

The problem that I saw start in 1989 when I was working in the City (London financial district) was that managers are no longer paid to avoid things going wrong. They are paid to clean up the mess when it happens. I have seen this many times over the past 19/20 years.

Companies have decided to NOT pay for training and maintenance on some items and save the money. They have decided that it is cheaper to fix the problem than to prevent it. I have seen managers:
Not heed warnings in order to save money and his boss is pleased (because the boss does not know about the warnings, of course!).
Problem duly blows up.
Manger wades in with shirt sleeves (or jets off to the distant place where it went wrong) and NOW spends the money - and maybe more - to fix the problem.
Boss very pleased and praises manager for fixing the problem.But the PR problem and the destruction of staff morale by that attitude are without price and, unfortunately, do not appear on the balance sheet. As BA and BAA are just finding out ...

[SLFJan]

Spot on PAXboy, early 1990's in our industry.

(Manufacturing. Anybody remember that?)

[Right Engine]

If all front line staff were to talk to customers the way Kirkwood did to the press on Thursday then we'd have gone bankrupt by now. Apologies require sincerity and Gareth Kirkwood seemed to have had his sucked out of him. He represents all that is wrong with BA. The video of his cowardice has been 'pulled' from youtube. Again an indictment of their methods of management.

Sack the little pr*ck.

[rob_ginger]

This is still making news here down under:

http://www.smh.com.au/news/news/british-airways-calls-in-help-to-battle-baggage-mountain/2008/03/31/1206850758180.html

I particularly like this bit:
The launch of the terminal has proved a public relations disaster with potential major financial pain for BA,...

Gee, BA management, just think of all the money you've saved by paring down check-in and bagge handling staff, and not testing the new terminal thoroughly. I, for one, will NEVER EVER fly through Heathrow again nor fly BA. And spending millions of pounds/dollars on advertising won't change my mind.

[DAVYDAY]

We left GLA 20 mins late due to late baggage (also 15 down) and no paperwork till -3mins.

We left LHR 3hrs 20 with 60 bags down and no dispatcher till -05mins

Why we still have Pax I will never know.

Is this the sign of the times with our handlers.

Only had 2 sectors.

Time to move on.:ugh:

[Joetom]

Airline web site today shows.

All longhaul T5 departures normal....

T1 and T4 departures normal....

But it also shows the following flights are canx....LAX,PVG,IAD,JFK,JFK.

At least the information for passengers is clear to misssunderstand !!!

[BAengineering]

BA shares open down 4% within minutes of market opening. I think it is loud and clear from our investor stake holders. Sack WW and his amazing bunch of half wits. Amazing PPrune and its comments so in synch with feelings about BA.

[BAengineering]

I think i'd be right here to say that BA press department press release to the 'Press association'. Just like this mornings offering;

Calm descends on troubled airport

7 minutes ago
The atmosphere in Heathrow's Terminal 5 on Monday morning was calm as passengers saw an end to snaking check-in queues and delays at departures.
The building was starting to resemble the optimistic artists' impressions penned before its opening as travellers moved smoothly from check-in point to bag drop and on to security.
The Monday morning rush usually fills Heathrow's other busy terminal buildings to the seams but Terminal 5 looked almost empty. However, the calm comes at a price after British Airways was forced to cancel more flights again after a weekend of chaos.


The lack of passengers is probably because nobody trusts BA to fly them, they have voted with their wallets and gone elsewhere!!! Read between the lines...

[pappabagge]

We all thought the former Iraqi Minister of Information Mohammed Saeed al-Sahaaf (remember him??) went to ground after escaping with his life.

What wasn't so well-known was his association with a camel that resulted in a half-human half-camel being born to the happy couple.

Now we know just who his b@$tard offspring is - BERKWOOD al BA-RUNNAH soon to be late of Wet Waterslide parish.

Berkwood RIP :eek:

[John Blakeley]

I am not qualified to comment on what has gone wrong at Terminal 5 - I just plan to avoid going there or flying BA, and I will continue to use BMI's new services to LAS and Silverjet to Newark for two currently planned trips to the USA and the excellent service via AMS from my local airport for other long haul flights. However, you would have thought that this far into the crisis of confidence BA would be getting the information on their web site right. They are saying today:

All longhaul flights from Terminal 5 will operate as planned.

Take a more detailed look at the list of cancellations from T5 and they include:

BA279 to LAX at 1005
BA169 to PVG at 1605

Since when have either of these been short-haul destinations?

They are also cancelling three US flights from T4 - presumably as a "knock-on" from the problems in T5 - and these are the premier routes where competition is going to become very intense with the new open skies agreement - another triumph for BA management?

JB

[muppitt]

Disappointing to see that BA has persuaded the BAA to remove all the cancellations from the Heathrow website.

With thanx to Open Skies, here's one departure which will make the little leprechaun's (& BA shareholders) toes curl....

17:00 AF060 LOS ANGELES SCHEDULED T2

[Bobbsy]

I know I'm a bit late with this but I'm quite a few time zones out of sync with most of you...

Anyway, several pages back a number of people complained about not being able to see certain videos on Youtube and assumed it was BA censorship.

For once, BA is innocent. It's the BBC who have forced Youtube to restrict access to their copyright material when posted on that site. (This may well apply to some other UK broadcasters as well but it's only BBC I know about for sure.) I'd love to see some of those videos too, but am used to seeing the "not available in your region" message whenever I try to get BBC stuff.

As for the debate about whether BA or BAA is responsible for this fiasco, it's a bit of a sterile argument. I bet you'll find that, contractually, they're both as guilty as each other. On a project like this there will be a massive service level agreement between the two companies and, on past experience, I'll wager neither of them thought much about the passengers or the potential problems when this was being drawn up.

Bob

[LTNman]

It is definitely happening. A colleague here in Dubai (a Gold Exec Club Card holder) was due to fly Biz class tomorrow with BA to T5, but decided not to take the risk of bags not arriving in good time (!).

Just spend an age on a VERY busy Virgin Atlantic site to book Premium Economy with them instead. Strangely, this Gold Card holder is also vowing never to fly with BA again. I doubt whether that statement will hold true, but it is definitely true that (from Dubai at least) Emirates and Virgin are most definitely scoring big, thanks to BA's own goal.

Silverjet, no Heathrow , no queue, no lost bags and Private terminal at each end

[FAStoat]

Talking about the little Leprechaun.I gather he has been seen sitting on the ground with his head between his knees.A little Girl passenger comes up and asks if he is a Goblin with a MSc,or a real Leprechaun,with a MBA.Willy Wonka looks and cries"No I have an effing headache"!!!!!!!!!

[daelight]

All the personal and racist remarks towards Willie Walsh ...

You sure show yourselves up gentlemen. :D

No mention by name or nationality or stereotype junior school name calling... the head of BAA?

Also, the BBC can no longer report with ANY credibility any censorship issues in the media.

[whatbolt]

MBA - ? would that stand for Missing Bags Assistant

[muppitt]

Since when has referring to a short-arsed Irish bully as a leprechaun been a racist comment?

Yours,

A Fellow Celt

[13 please]

when they canx both SH and LH flights, the knockon, effects then more Sh flights as crew and aircraft are at the wrong places. the knockon is felt the same day on more and more SH flights. whereas the knockon effect on LH is not felt till the next day. And then we have more pax waiting to use SH services. BA do not canx more SH to protect LH. They cannot use SH crew or aircraft for LH services.

The whole of BA staff, at LHR at least, have received emails asking for volunteers.They cannot get airside passes for non-airside staff. My sister, (non-airside), has volunteered, and spent time answering phones from pax, helping to rebook. unpaid. Some staff may be extra, but on overtime, if that is already their normal workplace, but they are on days off. Some staff may be diverted to help in T5 from their normal workplace, eg waterside, but in their normal working hours. And also some will be volunteering for nothing in their own time. so although they may have 400 extra, they will not all be strictly volunteers or doing it for nothing. But some certainly are and well done to them.

Re skynews's "secret camera", it's amazing how the camera is always facing the correct direction!!.. And then at some point the suitcase stops, looks down, and films other luggage passing by underneath, amazing!!!:rolleyes:

[Sunfish]

As an MBA and as a former airline management person, I'd like to add my cup of petrol to this little fire....

For a start, thanks to the British class system, "British Management" is an oxymoron.

Unless you are a product of Oxford or Cambridge, life is pretty much against you in a management role. It breeds the usual class divides where feedback from the plebs is not welcome. This has led, in manufacturing industry to the point where household names like Jaguar and Land-Rover are now trade names of an Indian company.

I mean really folks, you invented the "East West" engine layout and the Mini - and then left it alone for twenty years while the rest of the world caught up.

I still remember the "sales team" (my italics) who came to sell us the Bae 146. One clown patiently talked me through "the maintenance innovations" and I had to listen politely to his patter about things that Boeing had put into the B727 at least twenty years before.

To put t another way Chaps and Chapesses, don't blame MBA's. You can produce an equally wonderful mess without them.

And...on the bright note, if you are allowed to (by senior management), I'm sure you can muddle through and produce a respectable result. Remember the blitz.

P.S. Sorry, I'm letting my xenophobia show through. I was married to one of you and I think your disdain for Australian wines has actually worked in my favour (price wise).

But I really wish the British would listen to people North of Oxford.

[heidelberg]

Moderator - please remove those racist comments posts.
They have no place here.

The problems with T5 were the result of 'experts' of many nationalalities including those from England, Scotland and Wales not getting it right.

However It's not the first time a major project - in any part of the planet - had opening teething problems and it will not be the last.

BAA as the operators of T5 have to shoulder most of the responsibility for the problems; then BA must 'carry the can' for the remainder.

In a couple of weeks time everyone will move on to the next problem area with T5 working as it should.

Those of you who are unable to comment without getting personal and racist please move on and if you don't I hope the Moderator does it for you.

[apaddyinuk]

Well at least we know the outcome of what happens when Pilots try to run an airline!!!! :}

I jest I jest....or do i?

[Sunfish]

Hiedelberg, your post suggests unfamiliarity with the dynamics of project management. It is an exceedingly difficult environment that requires first class technical knowledge plus an enormous amount of tact. I know, I've tried it it, and I've got to a draw with a $40 million project.

Basically for a project of this magnitude to mess up requires major senior management dysfunction. The middle management project managers who were hired will no doubt have been the best available.

[ceedee]

Don't know how interested folk here are about SLF experiences but I came across a frequent flyer's eloquent account of making it through T5 (http://tinyurl.com/3ygxdu) this weekend and thought I'd risk posting a link here.

His conclusion: "So, in the end i got my flight. Yet it was just a collossal disappointment that had nothing to do with a bunch of lost bags. It was as if we’d spent £4bn on a nice shiny car, but nobody had bothered to learn how to drive it."

[beamender99]

Very early on in this sad saga I found several video clips on Youtube that could not be viewed.

I assumed censorship but now believe it is about BBC ownership rights.

I posted links to the BBC site where three videos were available.

1. W Walsh

2. Gareth

3. Max Clifford interview.

I cannot re post them cos I am in a hurry.

I have not found any video of Gareth doing a runner and the door shutting scene

This info is for all those viewers who do not have time to read all the postings.

[A2QFI]

A news report this morning that T5 is returning to normal. I am sure we are all hoping for something way better than the normal we have seen so far. If you think T5 is bad wait until you see the 2012 Olympics!!

[BAengineering]

Still no call for the Wee Willie to pudh off....yet....

link to full city article here (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/money/main.jhtml?view=DETAILS&grid=&xml=/money/2008/03/31/bcnba231.xml)

[Storminnorm]

I'm just totally amazed at the responses to the T5 cock-up
on this site. 700 plus posts, and endless critism and carping
about WW and his pet Poodle.
What good is it all going to do?
This entire sorry mess has absolutely wrecked BA's image,
WORLDWIDE, and nothing that has been suggested about
what WW should do, either to himself or to others, has the
least influence on the situation.
WW's blind faith that " Everything will be O.K. on the day."
only goes to show what bad judgment he has of other
peoples performance, and I'm sure he MUST regret many
of the decisions he has made over the last few days.
He, obviously, HAS to go, But what is the next move?

Who will be willing to take the reins of the Company under
the present conditions? Branson? Sugar? Who would put
their neck on the block under the present circumstances?
The situation is totally desperate for BA, and I think that
this whole FIASCO should be looked into by many of the
regulating bodies because of the total lack of PROPER
foresight and judgment involving ALL the mangement(?)
involved.

Heads should roll over this situation; but Knighthoods
and Peerages will probably be handed out instead!
Vive la Republique. N'oubliez pas Madame Guillotine.http://www.pprune.org/forums/images/icons//icon8.gif

[Fargoo]

BA shares fall on Goldman Sachs downgrade
Still no call for the Wee Willie to pudh off....yet....

link to full city article here

I suggest you visit your GP and have that chip removed :rolleyes: How many posts have you put up in the last few days??

[2infinity]

Well Sunfish I profoundly disagree with your remarks. What on earth has the “class system” really got to do with the shambles T5?

The failure(s) can be put down to a lack of leadership, from the top to the bottom and probably at several tiers in between.

So please, spare us the flannel and class system claptrap. Poor leadership and the inability of some to take responsibility for their mistakes, omissions and lack of foresight led to this fiasco.

2infinity

[BAengineering]

Fargoo - I wouldn't be on this site if it wasn;t so desperate at BA. Like I stated in an earlier reply to a similar spleen vent, I only arrived at PPRUNE to voice my support for my pilot colleagues at BA. THat was one post, 4 weeks ago. No spleen venting, no obsessive committment to posting. Then what happened next really got my goat.....

I think my enthusiasm to state what is going on in the real world outside of waterworld, where you may possibly reside on a 9-5 basis, should be commended not castigated with childish remarks.

I am/was passionate about BA, the company I have worked for in the region of 2/3 of my life. I deplore what has been done to such an exceptional organisation I joined. The persons who are accountable should resign immediately. I don;t think that it will help at any rate as I believe the descent rate has been too steep at BA and the effect is TERMINAL.

One last thing, that'd be the 59th post since Thursday, not a huge amount in relation to a story that has headline news all around the world... Fargoo - feel free to get posting, it is what this is all about..free speech.:ok:

Also I didn't know my GP was qualified to remove my BA chip from my ass, I thought this could only be conducted by my line manger. I'll get right along at the next available opportunity, I think that'll see me out till this terminal fiasco dies a natural death. Oh his first avail appointment is Mid May.

[BAengineering]

You have to feel sorry for them, BA Press dept has gone all sensitive, check this quote from the Press association website;

'On Sunday night BA would make no public pledge about the resumption of full service. A spokesman said: "No. You would just use that as a stick to beat us with if it didn't happen."

The earlier post about Hubris attracting Nemesis which delivers judgement (incidently which was moderated (deleted))

Now those at the top know how it feels to be down trodden and beaten by those above them in the chain.

[BAengineering]

Now has anyone considered that this situation brought on by the arrogance of BA management, may have something to do with the banning of the Christian cross?

Please consider the timing, that the BA disaster follows immediately after Easter Sunday, the origin of the cross as a symbol of the suffering of the Son of God for the sins of humanity. The BA Disaster may well have higher origins.

Indeed the following Daily Mail quote shows the arrogant WW in all his glory when asked if he had any regrets over the handling of the Eweida situation;

Willie Walsh issued a defiant message in the face of a torrent of criticism from Archbishops and Cabinet Ministers over its ban on staff wearing the cross. The head of British Airways last night said he had "no regrets" over his handling of the Christian cross row.

He might be regretting it now, indeed as the volunteers dry up (cause they'll want the time off in lieu, TOIL as we call it at BA) and the chaos continues into the week, Willie Walsh will be needing all the help he can muster. Oh, if your reading Willie you might like to reverse the Christian Cross wearing decision. :E

[Southernboy]

Oh no not fundamentalism please. I thought she was banned simply due to the BA dress code, which forbad personal jewelry.

[xs-baggage]

A ghost wearing a bowler hat was allegedly seen in the area during the 1980s, asking about the whereabouts of his briefcase. Could this have contained the contingency plans?

[BAengineering]

How on earth is stating that the co-incidence between British Airways lurch toward bankruptcy has indeed occurred after the ridiculous debacle over BA banning the cross, this is not fundamentalism. I would suggest if I were insome way making an effort to convert you to any particular persuasion or waging a war on the grounds of religion, that may be fundamentalist.

I was merely highlighting the uncomfortable truth.

Oh another worrying esculation;

'BA admitted that air passengers face a summer of disruption' Dailymail (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/news.html?in_article_id=550768&in_page_id=1770)

It's getting worser!!! (as my 8 yr old might say)

[Xeque]

My friend, I don't know who you are but so far your input to this important thread has, in the main, been good with the possible exception of the Holocaust comparisons.
References to staff wearing personal jewellery at BA have no place here.

[Storminnorm]

:eek: Willie shouldn't be wearing a cross, he should
be on one.
Back to the all souls theme for a minute Chaps!
Wasn't it the previous Archbish of York who said
that he didn't believe everything in the Bible?
The following night the Cathedral was struck by
lightning and part of it went up in flames.
A salutory lesson to ALL.
Sorry, it should read "Minster", not Cathedral.
The "Yorkies" just couldn't spell it correctly.:ok:

[BAengineering]

I think the papers are getting it all mixed up, take for example the BA party they had whilst Peri Oaks the **** processing plant (T5 is built on the grounds of an old sewage plant) was making a comeback. The report below taken from the dailymail (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/news.html?in_article_id=550768&in_page_id=1770)


There was also fury that BA bosses held a back-slapping party at their Heathrow headquarters - complete with a string quartet and doughnuts - as chaos reigned at Terminal 5.

The report given to the paper was 'The 'Doughnuts' are having a party with a string quartet, whilst chaos reigns at Terminal 5'

See how they mix **** up, that's just poor journalism...

[PAXboy]

As I read the level headed info from BAengineering, his reference to the 'cross' affair was an example of how BA lost staff confidence and support. They could have done it differently and reached the same result

hiedelbergIn a couple of weeks time everyone will move on to the next problem area with T5 working as it should.I doubt it. If the problems had last two days, then I would have said yes but a project that is wrong for five days (a/c positioning not withstanding) then it will take proportionately longer to fix. The move from T4 will be delayed and T1 will be have to carry some of the load.

The reference to social class by Sunfish is, I suggest out of date. I would agree that 20 years ago it was that situation - but not now. What I see in the companies I have been involved with across the last 20 years (and see on the news and current affairs programmes) is that the people running the companies are now often from lower middle class and and working class backgrounds. They have worked they way up by education and all the usual means. Many have started their own outfits.

The social classes in the UK have very different strata to 25 and 50 years ago. Not gone (as every society has a class structure) but different.

[simon brown]

I'm not in the least bit surprised at all the chaos at T5 its inevitable you will get teething problems with any large project....

It has been reported that management were told during the development process of the baggage handling system, that certain things wouldnt work...and these observations were ignored.....so the chickens have come home to roost.

It appears yet another British "Management" cockup where management arent interested in being told the stark truth, but what they want to hear and bugger the consequences....

I expect those at fault will get a golden handshake of half a million quid and will end up "running" rail track or somesuch....

At least the government werent involved as they normally are in suck f**k ups.

I avoid Heathrow like the plague whenever I have to fly anywhere. Its a good representation to foreigners visiting as to the taste of things they can expect in this poorly run island of ours...

[coldair]

I have just heard on BBC Radio 5 Live that the press have been banned from T5.

The presenter said :

"The BBC are banned from Zimbabwe and now we are banned from Terminal 5".

[DingerX]

I don't like MBAs as a group, for the simple reason that many people who pursue MBAs are not passionate about anything other than making money. To them, MBAs allow them to work in "Business" where they get "Rich" and "Powerful", and one Business is as good as another. To other people in management, the new kid with no experience and an MBA knows nothing about managing, and yet pretends to know everything.

That's the stereotype. And there's probably something in it that makes MBAs so disliked in the business world: some of them just don't care, it would seem. Heck, in the US, the country's economy has proudly flourished under its first MBA president.

But separate the degree and the person. There are plenty of smart people who get MBAs, and some of those have a passion for something other than abstract administration.

In any case, for this screw-up, the MBA is a red herring. In fact, Terminal 5 will be studied and taught in the business schools of the world for some time to come. It is a spectacular, textbook example of how to screw things up on the management end. To judge from the statements here, the people involved who were convinced T5 would actually be a huge success consisted entirely and exclusively of senior management.

They had plenty of warning. Automated baggage systems have historically caused huge problems. BA themselves enjoyed a foretaste of that a few months ago (and I seem to recall some posters saying that T5 would be *much* better. Bigger isn't always better, of course). I can't speak for HK, but my experience with Copenhagen (your bags will arrive some time within 2 hours of landing) and Amsterdam (your bags will be forwarded to your destination sometime within the week) baggage systems has not been one of amazing speed and efficiency.
But those other launches just had baggage problems. This is multiple catastrophic system failure. It's like a transatlantic flight suffering an uncontained engine fire, taped-over pitot tubes all lavatories unserviceable, and all this while taxing out, and still electing to take off.
You can blame the BAA if you like, and I'm sure they're worthy. But from a management perspective, it's not the BAA that fails on its contract with the passengers. And it sure isn't the BAA that plainly violates (albeit now retracted) its EU-mandated obligations of carriage. And banning the press from T5 is sheer genius: we may all assume the worst. If you're not going to allow the press in, why the Hell are still you allowing the public there?
BA is a company whose entire purpose is to develop and maintain complex systems of personnel and technology, where the costs of failure are extremely high in terms of human and economic cost, as well as negative publicity. When a publicly-traded company fails so completely as this, the management has no choice but to fall on its sword. For I cannot see the shareholders standing for this idiocy much longer.

[ZFT]

coldair,

have just heard on BBC Radio 5 Live that the press have been banned from T5.

The presenter said :

"The BBC are banned from Zimbabwe and now we are banned from Terminal 5".

Really!!!

[Fargoo]

I think my enthusiasm to state what is going on in the real world outside of waterworld, where you may possibly reside on a 9-5 basis, should be commended not castigated with childish remarks.

Mmm, standard repsonse to someone not agreeing with you on these forums - accuse them of being a manager :ugh:
I'm closer to you than you think but fortunately realise that BA payes my wages not the BBC. If they want to go all out on a lost baggage/cancelled flight bonanza fine but i'm not about to join in biting the hand that feeds me.

If you really want to vent your spleen why not pop onto the discussion forum on the Engineering Intranet. Lack of balls would prevent that i'd guess.

Fargoo :ok:

Edit - P.S. This is aimed at the forum user BAengineering who chose a username that implies he speaks for all of us.

[Storminnorm]

MBA = Mindless Bl**dy Assholes. Sorry about that,
Couldn't resist it!:O
As an aside Fargoo, I'm absolutely sure that BAengineering
IS totally correct in his concerns about the situation.
He's probably harbouring thoughts that this situation
COULD have an effect on not only his job, but also on
the jobs of many at BA in the long term.:sad:

[FAStoat]

And so the Meltdown continues with 50 some flights cancelled today.Call me a cynic,but I would bet several pints that this will not be resolved this side of MAY!!!!!!I wonder what William Hills would give as odds?I have Emails from Bus Driver Mates in other European Airlines ,that call T5 a total laughing stock.Even a certain West African Capital International Airport,had a better start than T5.We used to have Tea Shirts which stated "Happiness is V2 from Lxxxs".Just how many punters will be left at LHR T5????

[two green one prayer]

I have a suggestion for WW. Unlike most other Ppruners my suggestion won't hurt at all. All you need to do is bring the pilot's strike forward.
See? Management is easy.

[BAengineering]

I took the opportunity to call the BBC on 0800 132022 and ask the News desk if the rumour is true.

The BBC spokeswoman Mary Hawker refused to be outright confirm that the BBC had been banned, but stated the following;

'I will not use the word ban, I will say the BBC have been unable to report from inside Terminal 5 today'

That my fellow PPRune chaps is BAA 7 BA censorship, I suggest all of you call the BBC on the number above and lodge your complaint that the BBC in the interests of good coverage should be permitted into the terminals.

Like all good dictatorships, you must maintain control of the state media. This is exacly what is happening. It is horrendous.

Finally, when asked by the BBC where I was from, I stated from PPRUNE, she knew exactly what I was refering too and was happy to discuss matters. that's probably as they get all their information from here.:ok:

[Storminnorm]

Unhappiness = Flap 40 into LHR.:uhoh:
Dammit, I missed post # 757. I got 737 & 747.
DRATTS!
I'll have to wait now for 767, Join the waiting list.

[peterinmadrid]

How about rather than cancelling 30-50 flights per day, operating some of them from T1? Surely it would be best to reduce the load until they get things sorted out.

[Two-Tone-Blue]

I have a suggestion for WW. Unlike most other Ppruners my suggestion won't hurt at all. All you need to do is bring the pilot's strike forward.
See? Management is easy.

Then presumably the only remaining question will be "Who wants to buy the remains of BA" as the entire Ship of [Aviation] State fades gently out of sight.



What's that curious habit the Japanese have, where they cut their bellies open with a sharp knife ... ?

[woodpecker]

Arrived as pax on BA from IAD this morning... bags beat us to the baggage hall! Mind you it was T4

[Storminnorm]

T5/T1 swop?
Rather defeats the object doesn't it?
So much for the "Welcome to Our new home" banner! :ugh:

[BAengineering]

Ah but Fargoo - you may think you are close to me, but we are worlds apart. (probably about 9 floors as I suspect your at the top of TBC!) To suggest you don't bite the hand that feeds you is a ridiculous statement to make in the circumstances. It’s one of the reasons with staff at BA being so afraid to speak out that this current fiasco has manifested. Reference over 30% of staff admitting they are bullied at BA (Sunday times article, 30th of March 2008, reference earlier in this forum)

So, please be my guest to continue kissing the hand that beats you, though you may be one of the chosen few that enjoys a good stroking! Little pet. Being worried about the pay is generally a sign of a manager speaking, as most of us employees with skills are too valuable to current or future employers. It;s the untalented MBA managers who are quaking in their boots at the prospect of no BA.(this is sadly a real prospect) Hence why the pilots are so confident that they will prevail, one way or the other, as they have transferable skills(and there is a shortage). What other airline will take Willy Wonka if its all over? There is always Mars choclate factory in Slough, here they are looking for a plant manger, its only 5 miles from Waterworld.

As for speaking for all of engineering at BA, of course that's ridiculous as my title stands for Big Aircraft Engineering, apologies for any confusion. Anyway I couldn't comment for the whole of BA engineering because engineering is in such a divided and detached place most don't really care what happens to BA. I would IMHO suggest that my views would sit well with a majority at BA let alone engineering.

Finally, you might be right that the standard response to persons supporting BA is to accuse them of being a waterwallower, in this instance it is clearly true, looks like I caught a live one! And to suggest I would wish to use the BA internal communications forum, April fools is tomorrow!! And only a fool would use that thing as it is just asking for retribution!!! Indeed it identifies the individual and then the next thing you know I'd be having my collar felt by some ogre manager.(which might be you for all I know) No for me I prefer the PPRUNE anonymity, freedom of speech and all that this entails. Though maybe you could just cut and paste my comments to the internal forum, sort of posting proxy, I bet you won;t, go on I dare you.

Anyway bored with this, so your on my ignore list from now.

Big Aircraft engineering:ok:

[Storminnorm]

I say, Well spoken Sir!

[BAengineering]

Terminal Thursday as it has become affectionately known by BA competitors is looking like set to cost in excess of £50 million by city estimates.

Interesting slagging off by bloomberg - LINK (http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601102&sid=aQnbbyQudA1c&refer=uk)

British Airways, whose Chief Executive Officer Willie Walsh (http://www.tailored.com.au/uploaded_images/ass-758565.jpg) says he accepts responsibility for the chaos, fell 13 pence, or 5.4 percent, to 227 pence, the biggest decline since March 6, and was trading at 233 pence as of 2:35 p.m. in London. The stock has declined 25 percent so far this year

See Bloomberg have picked up on the TERMINAL decline in BA over the last year. This has nothing to do with T5 Tits up but demonstrates all is not well with BA fr sometime now. The writing is all across the papers despite the news broadcast ban, its a matter of time before the bigwigs start falling.

(cheers storminnormin for the exhaltation)

[Storminnorm]

No prob bruv OK