Chaos at Terminal 5

[cwatters]

Great quote here..

http://www.reuters.com/article/rbssIndustryMaterialsUtilitiesNews/idUSL2836939520080328

"We're trying to cope with the overhang from yesterday's problems and to do that we've cancelled 36 flights in order to create more capacity," said BA spokesman Michael Johnson."

I guess that works because some people don't immediatley rebook? A chap on News 24 said his flight, due to depart tonight, was cancelled so he rebooked for 8am today (eg 12 hours earlier). Brave chap. He'd had a mad dash to the airport and was calling from the gate. Had been told at check-in he had 8 mins to get to the plane, ran all the way only to find no gate staff, and an hour later still no staff.

[aviate1138]

All I need to complete this mighty fiasco, is for 24 hour news media to interview the first passenger to claim for post T5-raumatic stress, or has it happened already?

Lawyers will be down there in droves! :rolleyes:

I have a spare short sword for Willie.........

[trident3A]

Slip and Turn,
Yep welcome to 21st century Britain where the country's infrastructure is seen solely as a way to extract large profits from the public. No-one thinks that having an affordable, organised, well run transport system might actually benefit the country as a whole. Short sighted greed prevails! I feel sorry for the poor sods caught up in this charade.

[Navy_Adversary]

It's a good job that BAA didn't introduce the fingerprinting recogntion system as well.

Suvarnabhumi got some stick during the BKK changeover, surely that was no worse than LHRT5.

Standby for The Bearded Wonder to appear on your TV sets shortly:)

[cdmc]

I actually flew out of DIA on the first day of operation and there was nothing like this level of disruption. Don't forget in that case they were opening an entirely new airport - 4 terminals on a different site to the old Stapleton - not just a new terminal on the same site as the existing operation.

As with most people I have avoided LHR unless there are NO practical alternatives. I guess from now on even impractical alternatives will become more attractive!

[Bus429]

Yep welcome to 21st century Britain where the country's infrastructure is seen solely as a way to extract large profits from the public. No-one thinks that having an affordable, organised, well run transport system might actually benefit the country as a whole. Short sighted greed prevails! I feel sorry for the poor sods caught up in this charade.

Trident, you've just about summed it up perfectly. This is what the UK has become. Short-term greed, greed and more greed.:mad:

[magman]

After 37 years with BA why was I surprised. We all sat around waiting for the inevitable to happen.

But the real kick in the teeth for BA Staff was that moron Kirkwood, who stood in front of the cameras looking like a schoolboy reading out a poor school report to his parents, then scurrying away with a BA Press Officer as if he was a movie star.

Bloody disgrace.

Could this debacle of happened with King and Marshall in charge... I don't think so...
... but we have employed second rate 'Yes' men who don't want to listen and don't know.

There is more spinning done in Waterside than in a busy laundrette..

I am absolutely embarrassed to be part of what was once a great company and is now a laughing stock....

[RTM Boy]

Getting angry ultimately doesn't solve anything, but I'm not surprised this happens. They may not be highly paid, but too many BAA and BA staff do as little as possible, stand around chatting, opening gates when they feel like it :=, and the things I've seen baggage handlers do to luggage airside are shocking (not just at LHR) :bored:.

You need to do more than wear a uniform to be professional. It's a state of mind - a way of thinking. That applies from top to bottom of BAA and BA.

[Skylark58]

This is just another example of what is wrong with ‘UK Plc’. We have been brainwashed by the mantra of ‘Private Ownership good’ Public Ownership bad’ and persuaded that private corporations produce slick efficient results. Time and again this is not the case. The railways, the post office, etc, are increasingly inefficient and more and more costly, as staff numbers and proper training are cut to maximise profit. The buck passing of management directly parallels that after a rail incident, with the various disparate entities trying to blame each other, while letting the passengers and the staff at the sharp end suffer

[ZFT]

Navy_Adversary


Suvarnabhumi got some stick during the BKK changeover, surely that was no worse than LHRT5.



Some of that stick was from me but they changed airports - this is only a partial terminal move. Useless to$$ers.

[Shaggy Sheep Driver]

The folk at BAA should take a short ride down to St Pancras International rail station to see how a 21st century terminal should be done. Tasteful, efficient, with only selected quality retail.

Today's airport terminals are little more than downmarket shopping malls. :(

[The Big Easy]

All together now,

'Bye Bye Kirkwood we'll be seeing you'!

[RTM Boy]

Skylark58, Network Rail is controlled by the DfT after it effectively renationalised Railtrack plc. Is Network Rail any better for it? The Post Office and Royal Mail are both still state owned and losing alot of money and when they go on strike you don't get your post for six weeks. How is that any better?

It's down to the quality of management and leadership in any organisation, whether you're a commercial orgainsation, charity, public sector body, Government department or whatever. The problem is that too many people in management positions can neither manage nor lead effectively. Employees get disgruntled. The rest you know.

[Skipness One Echo]

The level of genuine embarrasment and outrage at this fiasco has been reassuring. For two long we have been fobbed off with crap airport service with the promise of jam tomorrow. The promises are now shown to be lies based on greed where it is more profitable to have people delayed in the lounge using shops than speedily passing through on their way to their destination. The whole mindset and competence of BAA and BA is rightly shattered. Hoist by their own petard, no one is going to give them credibility for a long time. Willy, you presided over a shambolic farce, step aside for someone who can deliver a quality service at a well run airport. Cheerio !

[Bus429]

This is just another example of what is wrong with ‘UK Plc’. We have been brainwashed by the mantra of ‘Private Ownership good’ Public Ownership bad’ and persuaded that private corporations produce slick efficient results. Time and again this is not the case. The railways, the post office, etc, are increasingly inefficient and more and more costly, as staff numbers and proper training are cut to maximise profit. The buck passing of management directly parallels that after a rail incident, with the various disparate entities trying to blame each other, while letting the passengers and the staff at the sharp end suffer

Another succint summary. I've nothing against private enterprise and feel that well-performing managers (and staff) providing value-for-money services should receive reasonable bonuses. There are some entities that cannot exist in the private sector - BP's Lord Browne said something similar - such as utilities (gas, electricity etc) rail and transport infrastructure.

The Post Office is a good example: how many of you have used post offices in Germany, the Netherlands, Scandinavia or Finland? Nice clean areas, not the poky dirty offices to which we have become accustomed in the UK.

[Golf Charlie Charlie]

On post offices, you should see American post offices, which are frequently far worse in their squalor, wait-times etc. than UK ones. Sorry, carry on.

[RTM Boy]

The Dutch post office is privately owned - TNT. So what does that prove?

I wouldn't be so quick to listen to Lord Browne either:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2007/may/02/media.pressandpublishing

[rsuggitt]

Can I just say... mayne it's been said before... it's a pity they didnt gradually phase in the opening, as opposed to the big-bang approach.

[RTM Boy]

...and those of you who fly DHL planes will know that DHL is part of Deutsche Post. So that says what about public or private ownership :confused:?

Lord Browne had to resign from BP last May after he lied in court. So, he is an expert in what :hmm:?

[boaclhryul]

One key thing missing from the disaster recovery plan...

HRH should have popped by to finish the job she started a few days earlier. A few judiciously placed words to her loyal subjects, and even WW would be slaving away to make it all better.

Unless they've privatised the monarchy while I wasn't watching...

[Bus429]

Come on, RTM - he resigned for personal reasons. Anyway, potential for thread drift if I continue in this vein; merely making a point.

[Momo]

Well, I had the dubious privilege of taking BA738 home to Geneva last night from T5, having done the same thing a week ago from T4. Last night we left close to 2 hours late, with no hold baggage. A week ago, we were told tha the catering vans were not able to clear BAA security and that there would therefore be no catering on our flight. We were told that had been happening for most of the day. That was March 19th.

[green granite]

This is what the UK has become. Short-term greed, greed and more greed.:mad:

The companies have caught the disease from this government and it's tax increases, if they can rip the public off so can we attitude.

The trouble with modern management is that they only employ sycophants in middle management positions, get rid of anyone who suggests something won't work and then express surprise when it goes pear shaped. :ugh:

[Bus429]

We might as well shut the country. The way "security staff" jobsworths act you would think that is the intention.

I use AMS for most travel, leaving the UK from NCL which is not too bad an airport by UK standards.

[Rightbase]

rudolf said in post #159:
Python had it right, circa 1980.

http://www.last.fm/music/Monty+Python/_/I'm+So+Worried (http://www.last.fm/music/Monty+Python/_/I%27m+So+Worried)Absolutely Brilliant - what a fantastic memory you have, and what fabulously good taste! To think it is nearly 30 years old!

I'm almost crying - a mixture of laughter, pride that we Brits gave the word Monty Python, and congratulations to BA and the Spanish 'B'AA for keeping the humour going.

And sadness to think there's no chance of anything changing by 2012.

And depression at the horrendous cost of it all.

[groundhand]

Magman quote "After 37 years with BA why was I surprised. We all sat around waiting for the inevitable to happen."

Sums up what most people think most of BA do most of the time. Sad thing is that this poster seems to think it's normal.

As for the mention of the gangsters King and Marshall, they should still be with HMP for what they did to UK aviation during their tenure.

[clunckdriver]

It seems little has changed since I hit the age sixty rule, I can only quote my F/Os on one of my last flights,"this place has without a doubt the best ATC of all our overseas destinations, so how come everything else here is such a godamn screw up?"Maybe someone could answer this question?But the UK is not alone in this, Toronto Pearson is right up there with the best when it comes to foul ups and gouging the public.

[brakedwell]

"British Airways has not delivered and we need to deliver," he said. "I am accepting responsibility, the buck stops with me."

Will he resign or forgo his big fat bonus? No way Jose!!

[RTM Boy]

Actually it does make a relevant point to the approach taken by so many very senior people in positions of power and authority - that of supreme arrogance.

Lord Browne had to resign because Mr Justice Eady said to him: "I am not prepared to make allowances for a 'white lie' told to the court in circumstances such as these - especially by a man who prays in aid of his reputation and distinction, and refers to the various honours he has received under the present government, when asking the court to prefer his account of what took place."

So, getting back onto subject it's this kind of arrogance that leads to the kind of embarrasement that is T5 today. At least Lord Browne had the decency to resign. Will WW?

[Captain Jumbo]

Sorry to be guilty of thread creep, but has anyone thought of the Olympics - if we ramp from the Dome to T5, via Nulayber, the potential is truly awesome.

A WORLD CLASS LAUGHING STOCK!

[derekvader]

I can't understand why BA/BAA didn't do simple things like move all the baggage handlers' car parking spaces LAST week or LAST month and bus them back to T1/T3/T4 for a couple of weeks. That way all of those silly parking problems would have been dealt with already. It's an absolute no-brainer with a big project that MUST go well on day one even if it falls apart on day two by which time the media have all gone home, you should do EVERYTHING you can possibly do in advance, in advance. What's the cost of a few buses to move people back to their old workplace for a few weeks?

And take a leaf out of Eurostar's book - don't leave the move of vital equipment until the night before. Eurostar moved all their x-ray stuff or fitted new stuff at St Pancras ages before the move of service, and put hired or retirable equipment in Waterloo to keep it going for it's last few weeks. This new terminal cost £4.3bn, why didn't they keep a few mere million back for equipment hires to back-fill T4 so that they could take their time fitting T5 out properly? In fact even if T4 had been left short resulting in chaos there for the last few weeks, if it had allowed T5 to open properly fitted out instead of rushed and understaffed, the overnight improvement would have been fantastic publicity.

Still waiting for resignations from BA executive management, I guess we are not going to get them :ugh:

[slip and turn]

No, no ... don't let BA and BAA listen to Terry Gilliam again - they'll make some kind of reverse justification out of it :\

[Ken Wells]

The Mañana luggage sysyem, hmmmm very Spanish

[Southernboy]

Previous postings re WW going make a very valid point but we've seen no more of the wooden GK & I would like to know who had the day to day responsibility for this project. Surely more than one head should be rolling here?

I also wonder how much experience of opening new terminals the management team had. Plenty of other's to learn from.

[Gulfstreamaviator]

That will be the biggest transfer in history.

I hope the ICAO code is release soon, it will take a few years to get to the updates.

Abu Dhabi will open the new terminal and runway first, so that would be a good wet run....

did Serco get the airport contract, or just the monorail contract.???????

glf

[Basil]

groundhand,
As for the mention of the gangsters King and Marshall, they should still be with HMP for what they did to UK aviation during their tenure.
King and Marshall were the best thing to happen to BA during the 24 years I worked for the company.
Whilst on secondment to Gulf Air in the 80s, I discussed BA with our pax without letting on that I was from BA. They almost invariably made glowing comment upon the way the airline's attitude to passengers had been turned around by K&M.

'Usual suspects', 'heat', 'kitchen' spring to mind :hmm:

I see one or two of them have now joined the baying mob.

[Yahweh]

Have to admit that on the face of it BA got a lot of things wrong but with anything on this scale there are bound to be teething issues. Not everything can be planned for and when something does goes wrong everyone is quick to blame the man at the top. When disneyland first opened there was chaos.

In the coming days and weeks I have no doubt that things will begin to operate smoothly. Have a little patience people.

And no, I don't work for BA :ok:

[Southernboy]

Someone told me there was a party at T5 yesterday. anyone know if that's true?

[Skipness One Echo]

anything on this scale there are bound to be teething issues.

Bollocks, if you can't get a bag to an aeroplane in a building that you have been crowing as having been thoroughly tested then you're not fit to run an airport. The problem with BAA is that they don't know how to run airports. Shops yes, airports, no.
I'm sick of their excuses as they've screwed people over once too often.

[Eboy]

I actually flew out of DIA on the first day of operation and there was nothing like this level of disruption.

I flew in to DIA on the first day also, and things went smoothly. That is because the opening was pushed back from October 1993 to February 1995 after problems were found in the high-tech baggage system. It was to be fully automated, and after more than a year of tests and troubleshooting it was scrapped for a hybrid automated/manual system that exists to this day.

[groundhand]

Basil,

I'm sure K & M were "the best thing to happen to BA during the 24 years I worked for the company" if you worked for BA. History shows that they led a less than honest management team that used the government of the day's protection to manipulate the market and other airlines' passengers. Yes, they did turn BA round. it was their methods that were totally unacceptable and they should have been held accountable.

However, these past exploits have nothing to do with the incompetence shown by the current BA management over the last few years. It amazes me that so many passengers still travel with them. I will do almost anything to avoid BA and particulalrly BA at LHR. Every once in a while I am left with no choice but to fly with them and they never fail to live up to their well earned reputation of NOT being the World's favorite airline.

[DartHerald]

I think our friend above is having a laugh.

Patience? How would he/she like to be hundreds or thousands of miles away with no luggage, or have their flight cancelled or be delayed for hours with young kids and no info.

It's all very well for people to say there will be teething problems but this debacle is indicative of some serious mis-management and those people should be held accountable.

Menawhile the poor traveling souls affected by this should be given some serious compensation for what has gone on.

[BYALPHAINDIA]

I laughed at the program - 'Checking into Airport Chaos' = and now it's reality.:ugh::}:rolleyes:

[derekvader]

Hmm the opening of the new terminal at DXB will indeed be interesting. I see it is intended to handle 43million passengers annually (http://www.business24-7.ae/cs/article_show_mainh1_story.aspx?HeadlineID=3720#) whereas LHR T5 is designed for 30million.

How will people defend LHR's "teething problems" if DXB T3 manages to open smoothly?

[Mister Geezer]

What I found a bit of a kick in the teeth was that BA was offering to reimburse up to £100 for a hotel room for last night. At short notice you won't get a room at an airport hotel for that price! Therefore potentially leaving the customer out of pocket when it is not the customers fault!

[towerview]

I wonder if Michael O'Leary should start a consutancy arm and teach BA how to turn an aircraft round in under 30 minutes? With some bags on board?

[PAXboy]

green_graniteThe companies have caught the disease from this government and it's tax increases, if they can rip the public off so can we attitude.I don't agree. I think the govt caught the attitude from business! In 1988, I watched my employer (an American merchant bank) introduce Outsourcing. I predicted that quality would fall but, because money was saved, it would be marked a success. It was.

Ten years later and both the old Tory and new Labour govts thought Outsourcing was flavour of the decade.

Ten years on from that (2007) and you are seeing some business' ending their outsourcing and bringing control back inside.

As to the Olympics in 2012 ... I am sad to say that the day they were 'awarded' to the UK, I predicted disaster.

"British Airways has not delivered and we need to deliver," he said. "I am accepting responsibility, the buck stops with me." W.W.As brakedwell states, WW will not resign. The new fashion is for the CEO/PM to accept responsibility and then carry on as normal. We saw this with Blair so no need to expect any different from a UK company.

Having worked in telecommunications and IT for over 25 years and done many large corporate moves, I am ASTOUNDED to learn that some equipment had to be moved 'live on the night'. You always buy new for Day One and then move the stuff you have to move for Week Two and so on. That is Project Management 1.01

King and Marshall?? You mean the best thing for BA that got them in court for trying to trash a competitor by underhand means? The operational staff of BA deserve better.

Lastly, soooo pleased to hear the Pythons. "Trouble in the middle East and the baggage system at Heathrow."??? We need a 'smiley' for: Rolling On The Floor And Laughing My A$$ Off.

[chrisr150]

The Dutch post office is privately owned - TNT. So what does that prove?

And its also a pile of sh!t! Late post, letters delivered to wrong letterboxes, theft in the postal system...public/private ownership means nothing, its who you've got working for and with you that counts...

[ezypezy]

ANY person with a shred of common sense would have avoided H'Row fro at least a week after this opening.
How can anyone be surprised?

[Evanelpus]

I wonder if Michael O'Leary should start a consutancy arm and teach BA how to turn an aircraft round in under 30 minutes? With some bags on board?

MOL is probably wetting himself with laughter over this, it certainly deflecting attention away from him.

There goes WW's knighthood!

[Hand Solo]

Having worked in telecommunications and IT for over 25 years and done many large corporate moves, I am ASTOUNDED to learn that some equipment had to be moved 'live on the night'. You always buy new for Day One and then move the stuff you have to move for Week Two and so on. That is Project Management 1.01

In fairness, most of the equipment that had to be moved live on the night was large pieces of machinery such as loaders, hi-lifts, aircraft tugs and aircraft. Thats's not really the sort of stuff you can afford to duplicate. The majority of computer systems and comms had been in place at T5 months before the actual move date.

[Nick Riviera]

I received an email yesterday afternoon from the BA Executive Club proudly announcing the opening of T5. It contained the following paragraph:

'At Terminal 5 everything has been streamlined and designed to make your journey through the terminal calm and relaxed. And this morning we saw all the planning fall into place.'

So could you all stop complaining about the problems that have occurred. They are not problems, they are all planned occurrences.

[vanHorck]

Free Willy :D

[Iver]

Did BA not conduct test runs in preparation? What about risk management tests if problems arise? This was avoidable with proper preparation and testing. How many months did they have to prepare? BA will lose passengers to other airlines as a result.

Sounds like a terrible PR blunder and I would be embarrassed if I were BA employee. Walsh should get fired.

[O'Neill No6]

Terminal 3 at Changi opened recently.

Teething troubles? Zero

Passenger experience? Excellent.

A seamless transition from T2 operations.

How come it can't be done at Heathrow? It's an absolute disgrace.

I thank God I wasn't having to go through that airport in the last few days.

[SeLFish_Flyer]

Those big bags under WW's eyes, I take it they were hand baggage only?

:rolleyes:

n.b. that was meant as a response to post #243 (I havent worked out how to quote)


By the way, did I see that Shanghai opened a new terminal the day before T5? How did this go??

[brakedwell]

This was posted on another forum, but it is a harsh indictment on airport culture and security.

This is a long post, but worth a read for the chuckle....

Anyone in the Hell Hole called t5 today?

I have had a sh*t of a time..... both with BA and BAA.

It started off at security, when I presented them with my online checkin printed boarding card (no baggage). They told me the boarding card was invalid.

I ambushed one of the thousands of staff wearing the "Can I help you..." tee-shirts and they said, oh, it probably means your flight has been cancelled.

I checked one of the big flight boards, and sure enough, they dont now say "cancelled" they say "contact airline" - cant have pictures of cancelled on the front cover of tomorrows press can we!?!?

Off I went to a huge queue, that had 109 people infront of me... but thought, hey, I have a gold card, l'll call the exec club.

The exec club girl laughed and moved me onto another flight.... great... a 4 hour wait..... but at least its my own bed tonight...

Another hour passed... and then the next flight was cancelled.... exec club again... moved flight.... another time passes...flight cancelled... AGH!!!

Phoned exec club again (queues were terrrrrrrible....) and no more flights today... so booked on first flight tomorrow morning....so we will see....

Next hassle... how do I get out of here? T5 airside has NO exit signs... I could not escape. I asked 4 BAA staff and was sent from one end to another (remember just how big this place is...) and I could not get out.


I eventually found what looked like a senior BAA guy, and started the conversation with the statement around " its a criminal offence to detain someone without cause or charge" in the uk.... you are detaining me and not allowing me to exit your premesis. Turns out that T5 airside has no escape route! I questioned fire exits, and was told that they take you from building A to B to C and not outside!


Anyway...70mins later I managed to get down a staff route into arrivals.... to be presented with customs.... so off I trotted thinking if I get stopped...it will be fun.... walked through...

Next, yes, you have guessed it, immigration....!


I was at the front of the queue... eventually and was asked for a passport..."sorry, dont have one" was my reply... "you have to have one...." I was told.... "where did you come from"..... "slough"......I replied.... "how did you get here"...taxi, I quipped....it went on and on... then a few heavies appeared.... oh no I thought... started the "where is your passport" again... "edinburgh" I replied....yawn....

So , next they say, ok... "can we have some other ID....." "nop"e I say... "we need some ID".... " I ask "what rule or law requires that given what and where I am going?"....they look at eachother....


They then ask for photo id or credit card.... I tell them I have that, but under data protection laws, they have no power to request or record those details......


Anyway...it went on and on.... and thankfully they saw the funny side... I , although really pi**ed off, was cool and jovial....


I eventually escaped the place.... and my favourite hotel put me up for the night at my usual rate, having kicked out some poor soul lower down the "social" ladder..... I hate doing that, but it beats a park bench.... all the LHR hotels are full tonight and its dog eat dog!


Anyway... advice to anyone (and me) - steer clear of Ba and T5 for a few weeks.....

[XX621]

The only positive which might come out of all of this, is that prat, who calls himself "Director of Operations", being given a new career opportunity. To be replaced by a greater prat no doubt.

Sigh. What has happened to the UK?? :confused:. Its soooo depressing.

[wiggy]

Yes BA/BAA did run tests. Talking to some of the Cabin Crew involved (i.e this is second hand) it seemed that on a least one test departure/arrival about month ago all the bags completely disappeared within the bowels of T5. After waiting for over 30 min at the belts the "crew" and "pax" were told that the baggage aspect of that particular trial was going to be ignored, they were then waved through immigration, and told "thanks very much, bye". I also understand this was not an isolated occurance during the trials...I'm sure management came up with a fix during the wash up - didn't they:ooh:

Sadly having heard the stories of botched trials for a while now I don't think many of us outside the confines of Waterworld were not particularly surprised by yesterdays events..saddened yes, surprised, no. It may have helped if BA had thrown more manpower at the problem(s) but the operation has been cut back to the bone over the last few years and there is no "spare" in the system. There is no money in the pot to pay people to work the extra hours, and in the current climate very few people were prepared to give up their spare time for free.

I hope for the sake of our long suffering passengers that matters improve - quickly.

[beamender99]

MOL is probably wetting himself with laughter over this, it certainly deflecting attention away from him.

1. When he was interviewed on BBC R4 this morning the did not knife BA but concentrated on wanting BAA split up.

2. No clever adverts in the press today from MOL.

3. Jamie Bowen being quite nice

[Hermano Lobo]

I was slagged off on this forum after I had done the T5 trial.:cool:

One of my main points was that the trials were nowhere near
realistic enough.

Lots of people ticking the right boxes in the answer page already
given to them. Nobody doing the unusual or making waves.

It has obviously not been rigorous enough, and was the usual
management trying to fix things into the date they had proposed.

The baggage handlers couldn't get past security. Couldn't log into
their computers etc etc.

What happened to the dry run to make sure things work ?

"Oooh mustn't say this is crap and not working properly because
I will lose 'Brownie Points' with my manager, such a nice man!"


I wonder if they have improved the sighting and size of the
flight departure information yet ?

Don't worry chaps, it'll be alright on the night.

Fred Karno BA/BAA

http://blogs.citypages.com/amadzine/images/shhtan.jpg

[andyhargreaves]

Wow, this thread is famous! It's just been shown on BBC News 24.

The newsreaders read out posts 281 (http://www.pprune.org/forums/showpost.php?p=4008760&postcount=281) and 287 (http://www.pprune.org/forums/showpost.php?p=4008778&postcount=287).


:cool:

[schoolkid]

Wow, this thread is famous

And why not, everybody seems to be actually speaking off the same hymn sheet for once:O

Favourite quote came from a few pages back...

Same old circus, just in a new tent
:E
Fantastic!!

[beamender99]

Wow, this thread is famous! It's just been shown on BBC News 24.




Several responses shown and read out.

Followed by Max Clifford.
"On a range of 1-10 where does T5 situation rate ?" " 12 !!!"
He suggested the launch should have been delayed until the start of next month, then all could see the joke.

[Vino Collapso]

Sounds like the standard British disease of 'a ship being ruined for the want of a ha'perth of tar'.

You can just imagine the scenario..... some middle manager in a sub-committee saying 'no we don't need that backup device, so we can save ourselves a tenner', 'we can use a paperwork mitigation by saying we train the staff to a high level that makes such backups un-necessary' He then wanders off and gets a pat on the back by his seniors for saving the company a tenner. The next middle manager then saves a tenner by cutting back on training costs and gets his pat on the back from his seniors.

I bet the public never get a satisfctory explanation of what actually caused all this. Just a load of management speak from a PR prat who has been paid three tenners to come up with a cover up.

(for our foreign readers a 'tenner' is roughly 10 GBP, in other words an insignificant amount.)

[rasobey]

I'm still amazed that "teething problems" are being blamed for the cancellation of, as it was yestersday I believe, 36 or more flights.

Surely it would not have been too hard to make sure primary systems (i.e. baggage belts!) were actually in proper working order?

I feel very sorry for the first passengers going through all this. I bet they're wishing they were back in T3 or whatever...but I suppose it's a lesser of two evils :)

[sky9]

If you want a really good laugh have a look at:
http://www.terminal5.ba.com/en/

Reminds me of that song:

Little Willy, Willy wears the crown, he's the king around town
Dancing, glancing
Willy drives them silly with his star shoe shimmy shuffle down
Way past one, and feeling alright
'Cause with little Willy round they can last all night
Hey down, stay down, stay down down


Enough said.

[Hand Solo]

It seems the baggage belts were working. In fact it appears most of the infrastructure is fine. The problem appears to be cost cutting on the people front, with BAA not providing enough security staff to allow BA to get enough people in, and then when BA got the people in they hadn't trained them well enough. I'm sure 'Manager T5 training' got a good bonus for keeping his budget down.

[BAengineering]

Just incase the script gets removed from the BA T5 site, here it is posted for all of the WWW immortality. You may laugh at your leisure. Mr Walsh, it's time you got your coat, oh and take that Gareth Deadwood chap with you on your way out.

BA Terminal 5 mantra:

'At London Heathrow Terminal 5 we’ve created a natural, logical journey that’s so calm, you’ll flow through. It should only take ten minutes to get from check-in to departures *. Transferring and arriving are just as simple and calm. Spend the time you save enjoying the excellent range of shops, cafes and restaurants. Or simply relax and be wowed by the world class architecture.'

[BAengineering]

T5 Alternative mantra:

At London Heathrow Terminal 5 we’ve created a natural bag jam, an illogical journey that’s so frustrating, your blood will literally boil. It should only take ten days to get from check-in to departures *. Transferring and arriving are just as bad and stressful. Spend the time stuck in T5 enjoying the excellent range of shops, cafes and restaurants. (all fully functional) Or simply relax and be wowed by the world class green house we built to store your baggage.


*That's if we can't cancel your flight before you get there

[Storminnorm]

I loved the sign shown in the BBC news from T5.
It read," Welcome to our new home".
Judging by the chaos and delayed flights it should
read " WECOME TO YOUR NEW HOME".:D
Are you LHR based BAengineering ?
Can you nip across and amend it?http://www.pprune.org/forums/images/infopop/icons/icon14.gif

[BAengineering]

Enough of this misery, Wee Willie is on his way out.........

The link below takes you to the new T5 security training video.. Hilarious


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z7AWw7t5zj0

Enjoy

[towerview]

MoL speaks on the Ryanair website.......fair comment I think



Ryanair’s Michael O’Leary said:

“This morning’s chaos at Heathrow provides further compelling evidence of the need to break up the BAA monopoly. We should allow competition between the London airports to deliver more efficient facilities, better passenger service and lower costs where the BAA airport monopoly has failed.

“If the BAA London airport monopoly was split up, competition would deliver better services and efficient terminals which actually work as opposed to complicated Taj Mahals like Heathrow’s T5. It is high time to break up this BAA airport monopoly”

[BAengineering]

What's with the 'Not our finest hour'

Wee Willie, you said you were taking full responsiability'

Quote: 'The buck stops with me' (though i did think he said boook?)

Therefore I must rephrase the BA PR statement to the following;

'Yesterday was definitely not British Airways' finest hour, it was a moment of pivotal change within the airline. For many years we have mistreated and abuse ourstaff, been ignorant of their efforts. As a result of this and the T5 fiasco I tender my resignation live and direct to the British public. I have made a mamouth and wholy unacceptable managerial cockup. goodbye'

Maybe give Wille a helping hand and write your own departure speech. You never know, with the popularity of PPrune within watershed, the communication lot might actually select one for his use.

Farewell Willie, nice knowing you. Go maire sibh bhur saol nua

[old,not bold]

Of course the group of people who are actually responsible for making a complete nation throughly ashamed of itself is the one group who would be surprised, offended even, that anyone should think that they should give up the income and perks derived from doing nothing except vote when they are told to, and not even knowing that it was all going horribly wrong.

Some of them are Spanish, of course, and wouldn't actually care, even if they did know.

They are all frightfully nice chaps, I expect. You know, the kind of team player who doesn't rock the boat.

Step forward the Directors of both companies. For further amusing reading on the backgrounds of these useless idiots, and their qualifications to run our national airline and primary gateways, there's a link under each list. In fact some of the links to BA Directors have been preserved when I copied the list.

The BAA list is, as we can see, out of date. However I've left it like it is because both lists are lifted from their websites today. Why is it no surprise that it's wrong?

British Airways
Martin Broughton (http://www.bashares.com/phoenix.zhtml?c=69499&p=irol-govBio&ID=87294), Chairman
Willie Walsh, Chief Executive
Keith Williams (http://www.bashares.com/phoenix.zhtml?c=69499&p=irol-govBio&ID=145731), Chief Financial Officer
Martin van den Bergh Non-Executive Director
Baroness Kingsmill (http://www.bashares.com/phoenix.zhtml?c=69499&p=irol-govBio&ID=129334) Non-Executive Director
Jim Lawrence (http://www.bashares.com/phoenix.zhtml?c=69499&p=irol-govBio&ID=158685) Non-Executive Director
Baroness Symons (http://www.bashares.com/phoenix.zhtml?c=69499&p=irol-govBio&ID=139259) Non-Executive Director
Ken Smart (http://www.bashares.com/phoenix.zhtml?c=69499&p=irol-govBio&ID=139258) Non-Executive Director
Alison Reed (http://www.bashares.com/phoenix.zhtml?c=69499&p=irol-govBio&ID=111133) Non-Executive Director
Dr Martin Read (http://www.bashares.com/phoenix.zhtml?c=69499&p=irol-govBio&ID=87298) Non-Executive Director
Chumpol NaLamlieng (http://www.bashares.com/phoenix.zhtml?c=69499&p=irol-govBio&ID=146338) Non-Executive Director


http://www.bashares.com/phoenix.zhtml?c=69499&p=irol-govBoard

(Don't you just love " Alison Reed is a Trustee of Whizz-Kidz. She was a Trustee of BBC Children in Need from 1994 - 2000. Alison’s interests include travel and theatre. She enjoys long walks on the beach on the south coast." BA's safe in her hands, then.)

BAA
Sir Nigel Rudd, Non-Executive Chairman
Stephen Nelson, Chief Executive Officer
José Leo, Chief Financial Officer
Luis Sánchez Salmerón, Deputy Chief Executive Officer
Eng Seng Ang, Non-Executive Director
Richard Drouin, Non-Executive Director
Renaud Faucher, Non-Executive Director
Ghislain Gauthier, Non-Executive Director
Ínigo Meirás, Deputy Chairman and Non-Executive Director
José María Pérez Tremps, Non-Executive Director
Lord Stevens, Non-Executive Director
Nicolás Villén Jimenez, Non-Executive Director

http://www.baa.com/portal/page/Corporate%5EAbout+BAA%5EOur+Management%5EThe+Board/b54ab3d073f32010VgnVCM100000147e120a____/448c6a4c7f1b0010VgnVCM200000357e120a____/


Are we going to see any non-exec Director sackings for doing a bad job?

Ummmm, no. We're even unlikely to see many executive sackings, in my view.

[Mariner9]

This is amusing: Baggage retrieval riot (http://www.theregister.co.uk/2008/03/28/t5_reconstruction/) :E

[Storminnorm]

I'd love to go to see the You Tube video about the
T5 training, but I can only take so much in a day,
And it may have an adverse effect on my medication:{
Thank Goodness I live near Gatwick!:hmm:

[SeLFish_Flyer]

And from the T5 part of the ba.com web

"The creation of Terminal 5 was a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity for us to redefine air travel. Our aim was to replace the queues, the crowds and the stress with space, light and calm."

And how have they gone about this??? Well they have hacked off the travelling public so much that they will not be booking BA, hence the T5 will remain light and calm as there will be no passengers to make queues!

[WetBehindTheEars]

I know I'm being incredibly naive but a more balanced view from the UK media would be welcomed. The BBC and Sky still have scolling banners proclaiming "more flights cancelled" or similar. To my knowledge no new flights have been cancelled today - i.e. other than the 36 that were planned and published at the start of the day. This just creates further panic from passengers planning to travel and more people cancelling or calling up to check their flights. I've seen most of the coverage today and not once have they mentioned that the 36 flights were cancelled in advance to create a firebreak. In fact the BBC News 24 reporter has just said that no flights seem to have been cancelled after 8:00pm tonight - that's because none were planned to be!

Neither has there been mention of other problems with other new airports. This article sounds very familiar...
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/asia-pacific/129891.stm
DEN, KUL and BKK all had problems with their openings too.

[rmac]

Symptomatic of UK plc today. Everything designed by committee which is too far away from reality. No connection between management and implementers. No one wants to rock the boat, or take responsibility for delivery. Am not at all surprised at how corporate UK could screw up such a high profile mission in such a spectacular fashion.

But they probably had plenty of vision and mission statements as well as committments to "shareholder value", what about the bloody customers, and I include to certain extent BA as a customer.

Also what kind of a moron have they hired as head of security, who seems to think he/she is doing a good job if no staff get in and those pax that do manage to get in get fingerprinted (on the back burner for now thank god)

[derekvader]

Everything still seems to be leaving T5 an hour or more late today so what's still going wrong?

Love Willie on Sky News "hey it's a brand new terminal building". Yes it's a shame you didn't realise that last week so you could ramp up the staff numbers until they got used to it.

[wallie wilsh]

Its been an open secret for months now amongst all BA employees at the coal face that the grand opening would be a damp squib. Rumours of bungled trials, staff not turning up, T5 reps exclaiming 'itll all be ok on the day' etc. buts its the scale of the debacle that is frightening. Apparently muttered misgivings were reported back to Waterworld but completely brushed aside, and now here we are, wee Willie crestfallen on international TV his big shiny new Wonka factory a shambles.
(Please spare a thought for those poor souls trying to sort out wee Willies mess as we speak, one of whom had her nose broken yesterday by an irate pax)

[beamender99]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/player/nol/newsid_7310000/newsid_7318700/7318730.stm?bw=bb&mp=wm&asb=1&news=1&bbcws=1

[lexoncd]

Quote: Old,not bold


The BAA list is, as we can see, out of date. However I've left it like it is because both lists are lifted from their websites today. Why is it no surprise that it's wrong?

British Airways
Martin Broughton (http://www.bashares.com/phoenix.zhtml?c=69499&p=irol-govBio&ID=87294), Chairman
Willie Walsh, Chief Executive
Keith Williams (http://www.bashares.com/phoenix.zhtml?c=69499&p=irol-govBio&ID=145731), Chief Financial Officer
Martin van den Bergh Non-Executive Director
Baroness Kingsmill (http://www.bashares.com/phoenix.zhtml?c=69499&p=irol-govBio&ID=129334) Non-Executive Director
Jim Lawrence (http://www.bashares.com/phoenix.zhtml?c=69499&p=irol-govBio&ID=158685) Non-Executive Director
Baroness Symons (http://www.bashares.com/phoenix.zhtml?c=69499&p=irol-govBio&ID=139259) Non-Executive Director
Ken Smart (http://www.bashares.com/phoenix.zhtml?c=69499&p=irol-govBio&ID=139258) Non-Executive Director
Alison Reed (http://www.bashares.com/phoenix.zhtml?c=69499&p=irol-govBio&ID=111133) Non-Executive Director
Dr Martin Read (http://www.bashares.com/phoenix.zhtml?c=69499&p=irol-govBio&ID=87298) Non-Executive Director
Chumpol NaLamlieng (http://www.bashares.com/phoenix.zhtml?c=69499&p=irol-govBio&ID=146338) Non-Executive Director


http://www.bashares.com/phoenix.zhtm...=irol-govBoard (http://www.bashares.com/phoenix.zhtml?c=69499&p=irol-govBoard)

(Don't you just love " Alison Reed is a Trustee of Whizz-Kidz. She was a Trustee of BBC Children in Need from 1994 - 2000. Alison’s interests include travel and theatre. She enjoys long walks on the beach on the south coast." BA's safe in her hands, then.)

Brilliant Reply.......Try a google search on them and you'll find little to reccommend them to a main board. So tell me Baroness Kingsmill apart from being on the competition board what have you achieved and how in your career....

[finfly1]

A single word has recently appeared to characterise the behavior of many large US businesses and certainly the US government, and now, sadly, it seems very applicable to the Europeans as well. DYSFUNCTIONAL!

[Storminnorm]

The penny has JUST dropped!
You have ALL fallen for it!
The reason for all this is that Wee Willie is in league
with Red Ken and they will shortly introduce a NEW
charge for aircraft polluting the skies over London.
Devious WW has decided to reduce air travel to an
acceptable level until they can BOTH agree on just
how much BA will have to fork out!
And you thought it was a cock-up! HAHAHA!:{

[spannersatKL]

lexoncd
Barroness Kingsmill surely in charge of the sandwiches?:{

[brakedwell]

Yeah, thick sliced!:yuk:

[Storminnorm]

Baroness Kingsmill? In charge of the sandwiches?
They'd be stale!

[steamchicken]

I don't think I've ever seen a PPRuNe thread where the signal/noise ratio was so poor; nowt but the media bollocks>media-based whinge>more media bollocks quoting media-based whinge cycle, people who think "short back and sides" is a qualification for software developers (ffs, you've never heard of Jon Postel, have you...), I told you so because my dog sniffs somebody who lives next door to Richard Rogers' wife's hairdresser's dog's backside, plain I told you so without explanation...

Only the A319 posts have any content.

The problem here is that upgrading something that's already in use is always harder than starting from scratch; it's always the way. Also, for my contribution to the unfounded speculation mountain, is it not possible that the focus on delivering the building on time and on budget, plus the epic relief and self congratulation when this was achieved, has got in the way of the next lot of problems?

[silverelise]

I've just checked the BA website. Think I can see the problem :

http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b22/silverelise/T5Beta.jpg


...and as someone previously commented in this thread:

http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b22/silverelise/terminal5.jpg

[172driver]

The problem here is that upgrading something that's already in use is always harder than starting from scratch

Upgrading ??? Did I somehow miss T5 through all these years enduring LHR ???

[vanHorck]

The solution remains the same..... Free Willy !

[anotherthing]

Steamchicken

T5 is not an upgrade in the sense you state - it is a totally new 'product'.

It has not been handled well - possibly because the management at BA have over the past few years, whittled away the infrastructure, leaving a shell of what was once a Great British company.

BA is no longer the 'Worlds Favourite Airline' - its service provision is generally poor, mostly due to mis-management, and partly due to the attitude of a select few who believe that the name BA overrides any deficiencies.

I truly feel sorry for the many good people who work for BA - they are getting the brunt of the reaction from a public who are still deluded enough to think that as BA is our national flag carrier, it must therefore be the best.
A sad and huge mistake; caused not by the ordinary worker, but by inept management and poor investment.

[beamender99]

There used to be a nasty smell at the western end of LHR.
A big smell has returned?

At least WW was doing the TV rounds ( eventually) but without a supporting cast and of course missing yesterdays clown.
And BAA PR ?
hiding in the basement?

BBC R4 was reporting no queues this afternoon.

Having joined in the BOOs I do hope they get things sorted over the weekend and the place functions as it should prior to the next flights migrating.

[ihatechewinggum]

Stuck at T5 right now. About a third of flights on the departure board are showing "Enquire Airline". How many airlines operate from T5? :confused:

[steamchicken]

Hey, if you could do a beta building and release-early-release-often, this probably wouldn't have happened...but you can't.

[ZFT]

WetBehindThe Ears,

Neither has there been mention of other problems with other new airports. This article sounds very familiar...
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/asi...fic/129891.stm (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/asia-pacific/129891.stm)
DEN, KUL and BKK all had problems with their openings too.

Yes, lets have some balance. It is NOT a new airport, just a partially utilised shopping mall with terminal facilities.

[Sunfish]

The problem of "incompetent" senior management is worldwide, just look at Wall street at present.

There is a type of person who is internally "broken" and cannot empathise with people, yet who are highly intelligent and hard working. They have recently been characterised as "Industrial Psychopaths" or suffering "Narcissistic Personality Disorder". They have a huge sense of entitlement, a grandiose sense of their own self importance, will lie and scheme to get ahead, they do "ruthless" very well, since, being unable to empathise with their victims, they sleep well at night. Arrogance is also a dead giveaway. They surround themselves with sycophants, most of who will have exactly the same personality and are quite prepared to grease their way up the management tree by sucking up to the boss.

Now in our efforts towards equity and fairness, which are noble goals, we now hire essentially on "Merit", and hardworking narcissists do "merit" very well. In "the bad old days" of class and the old school tie as a prerequisite for a senior management role these people could not get ahead, because by virtue of class and the old school tie, the selectors had observed the behaviour of these loathsome creatures over many years, and under many conditions, and knew well enough not to have anything to do with them, no matter how glittering their resumes read.

These creeps infest the upper management of many large companies, and HR Departments do not yet have the tools to weed them out, in fact some of them were even hired by companies for their deliberate ruthlessness, which was seen as a virtue at the time.

P.S. And looking at the Board of BA makes my point for me., especially the Chairman's resume.

[no sponsor]

Fantastic: "The £4.3bn terminal, which opened this morning, has been touted as the gateway to a new UK, where dwindling industrial and North Sea oil revenues will be replaced by the proceeds from duty free sales."

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2008/03/27/t5_opening_day/

[Mark in CA]

For those of you who are having difficulty fully comprehending the fearful chaos inside Heathrow's new Terminal 5, inaugurated this week amid the kind of anarchy which only BAA can really pull off, we're delighted to offer this afternoon our representation of the scenes inside the building as enraged passengers storm the security gates in the vain hope that armed action might reunite them with their luggage:

http://regmedia.co.uk/2008/03/28/t5_scene.jpg

We should explain that the security operatives seen here have just accidently shot dead the only person capable of fixing the baggage handling computer system, since he tried to get past them with an illicit 250ml of black coffee without decanting it into the regulation terror-busting plastic bags.

Anyone who's wondering why the other participants in this drama are dressed as pirates should be aware that while our Playmobil Security Check Point fortuitously turned up this morning, the box of 500 angry customers we also ordered has been delayed in transit, since it was apparently routed from Germany via a well-known UK airport.

Accordingly, we have improvised with our extensive collection of Playmobil buccaneers.

[CorkEICK]

Has any spokesperson from the BAA made any comment on TV or radio in the UK?

[PAXboy]

CorkEICKHas any spokesperson from the BAA made any comment on TV or radio in the UK?No. On the PM programme, they reported that BAA would not respond to any requests for interviews.

WetBehindThe EarsI know I'm being incredibly naive but a more balanced view from the UK media would be welcomed.When T5 was being planned, all involved knew the nature of the British media and knew that any mistake would be writ large. The fact that the failures were of Titanic proportions produced a similar response.

In the BBC Radio 4 programme 'PM' today, they quoted BA staff who had to remain anonymous saying: "We told them about the problems during testing and they ignored us." As per my previous post - I am not surprised.

(Cheap shot coming up) At 18:45 the BAA website still says:
Terminal 5"Imagine Bond Street and Knightsbridge under one roof"Except that they have car parking and you can leave with what you came for ... Seriously, someone in BAA should have told the web master to pull all such own goals as soon as it started to go wrong.

[beamender99]

ITV is now quoting from this thread.

54 flights scrubbed tomorrow. An improvement in numbers from today!

[ThreadBaron]

Mark in CA

That hit the mark in UK.:ok:

[candoo]

I find this whole episode a tad reassuring.

Media have done a great job of exposing the sheer ineptitude of Senior Management in all of the concerns involved.

Hopefully more peeps will wake up and smell the coffee regarding the demise of the "British" tag as a positive.

UK (and Irish) Corporate Executives beware :p

[NYhelipilot]

And from yesterday's Telegraph letters page (I wonder how they're feeling now?):


T5 engineering inspiration

Sir - Heathrow Terminal 5 opens to the public today: a triumph of modern engineering. With five levels, the size of 10 football pitches, it is the largest freestanding building in Britain.

Catering for up to 35 million passengers a year, it provides a crucial part of the transport infrastructure required to grow the British economy.

Part of the building's innovative technology is a rainwater-harvesting system that reuses up to 85 per cent of the rain that falls on site.

This project not only demonstrates the vital role that engineering and technology play in supporting our society, but it will also inspire a whole new generation to pursue careers in engineering.

Dr John Morton Chief Executive, the Engineering and Technology Board; Tom Foulkes Director General, the Institution of Civil Engineers; Robin McGill Chief Executive, the Institution of Engineering and Technology; Professor William Banks Senior Deputy President, the Institution of Mechanical Engineers; Blane Judd Chief Executive, the Chartered Institute of Plumbing and Heating Engineering; Nick Reeves Executive Director, Chartered Institution of Water and Environmental Management; Kevin Macan-Lind Chief Executive, the Institute of Acoustics; Dr David Brown Chief Executive, Institution of Chemical Engineers; John Williams Chief Executive Officer, Institution of Gas Engineers and Managers; John Long Chief Executive Officer, the Institute of Healthcare Engineering and Estate Management; Mary Lewis Chief Executive, the Institution of Highways and Transportation; Dr Graham Woodrow Deputy Chief Executive, the Institute of Materials, Mineral and Mining; Michael Yates Secretary, Institute of Measurement and Control; Colin Porter Chief Executive, the Institution of Railway Signal Engineers; Lt Col David Hamilton Chief Executive, the Institution of Royal Engineers; Keith Read CBE Director General, the Institute of Marine Engineering, Science and Technology; Dr Keith Eaton Chief Executive, the Institution of Structural Engineers; Lynn Cooper Chief Executive, Institution of Water Officers; Keith Mans Chief Executive, the Royal Aeronautical Society; Trevor Blakely Chief Executive, Royal Institution of Naval Architects; Professor Raymond Clarke OBE Chief Executive, the Society of Environmental Engineers; Judith Walker Secretary, Institute of Highway Incorporated Engineers; Tim Jessop Chief Executive, the Welding Institute

[sanjosebaz]

... And now Sky News has joined the throng of PPRune quoters with the "lions led by donkeys" message. This is far from being a farce now; more a very sad story involving many, many innocent people (and I am including the poor 'ordinary' BA staff as well as the infuriated pax).

I am living in Dubai at present and sincerely hope that the soon-to-be-opened "Emirates Only" DXB T3 will learn from these "teething problems". Thankfully, it is hard to see it being any worse than LHR T5.

Depressing. :\

[ubreakemifixem]

Just reported on BBC London BA to cancel 54 flights Saturday.I thought it was getting better not worse as said by Willie on BBC.What is going on?

[sanjosebaz]

Just reported on bbc london BA to cancel 54 flights from T5>i Thought it was getting better not worse?Not in any way defending the situation, but actually it is slightly better. There will be 'only' 27 flights canceled in each direction (today they cancelled 38 flights out, I think).

[BAengineering]

I can top your 54 with this contribution from Bloomberg;

March 28 (Bloomberg) -- British Airways Plc (http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/quote?ticker=BAY%3ALN) canceled 78 flights at London Heathrow (http://terminal5.baa.com/Terminal5/index.html) airport's new Terminal 5, or more than 20 percent of the scheduled total, as the building's chaotic opening spilled into a second day.

Anyone top my 78 flights?

I'm sooo glad our Pilots opted to delay their Industrial action till after Easter. Like they stated on another thread on Prune, best leave BA Management to screw things up all on their own over Easter Holidays.

WHat a bunch of wasters, the timing is great as well with many families on an extended Easter break, Wallies all the way

[candoo]

There you go - thanks NYhelipilot

Everyone is out harvesting the current intermittent rain for the environmental tax relief rather then running an airport.

As for the Telegraph letter - signaturees should be accountable.

[ubreakemifixem]

How many flights have been cancelled/delayed today so far?

[ubreakemifixem]

Thanks BAEngineering you answered my post before I posted it.Are you psychic?

[BAengineering]

Little posting on the LSE rumour board for BAY shares' I laughed my man boobs off!

CityQueen (http://www.lse.co.uk/member-info.asp?nick=CityQueen)
Posts: 3
Trade Opinion:
No Opinion

Price: 240.25
A new begining
Wed 17:05

T5 opens tommorow......Lets wait and see the outcome....

Me is thinking another management troll surfing the net, there really must be individuals working at BA doing this for a living. I'd love the job though I think I'd be a little more truthful.

Or maybe, just maybe, the post above was intended to be an forewarning. Whatever.....

[BAengineering]

Item from Bloomberg on passenger views

Gabi Zimpfer, traveling with her family to Basel, Switzerland, said she got a recorded message when ringing the British Airways helpline and had to turn to a travel agent in Germany for information. Her 2:05 p.m. flight was canceled and she was booked onto an evening departure.
``At first we thought it was a joke,'' said Zimpfer, a religious instructor.


Don;t you get it? It was a joke, April fools......

[ubreakemifixem]

Allegedly 9 B.A. loaders have been suspended for fighting in T5 over the chaos anyone now any more?

[Vino Collapso]

So having trawled through this thread and read news reports is it fair to say a summary of the problems looks like this...

1. Inadequate staff parking (BAA problem)
2. Inadequate staff numbers for a showcase opening (BA problem)
3. Indequate security staff to screen workers (BAA problem)
4. Baggage backlog due lack of staff, baggage system fails (BA problem)
5. Technical fault with baggage system (BAA problem)
6. Numerous other shortges and failures in equipment and staff (Both BAA and BA)
That reads as inadequate staff by both BAA and BA to ensure any last minute glitches could be coped with.

Which equals management on both sides looking to run this 'showcase' development at minimum financial outlay on staffing. No wonder things are not improving, if you haven't got the bods on the shop floor you are not going to cope with the workload, outlook similar.

Am I reading this story correctly because both BA and BAA will not give a straight answer.

[lambourne]

As a US based pilot I have enjoyed the novelty of flying in and out of LHR over the years. However, I must say the novelty started fell off quite quickly. Everything from the need for every person within a mile of the airplane to wear a reflective vest, to the most recent cluster fornication of security waits at the vehicle checkpoints for crews and the liquids f-up. I will fly to just about any other city in the world before I bid any LHR trips.

It is a shame that such a great place has been ruined with poor administration. Not realizing there are such things as a forest, none the less trees is setting this holding this airport back. Even on a good day it is a mess and the smallest of issues leaves thousands standing on the curbs with cellphones trying to convey the fact that they won't be coming home today.

What are the solution(s) to fix this airport? Can the reflective vest union be unseated? Is it possible to trust a flight crew member with a tube of tooth paste and god forbid a jelly filled donut? Imagine the destruction that donut could cause! Is there anyway to get the vehicle checkpoints to flow more smoothly? It is akin to going to the Department of Motor Vehicles in the states to just get to operations. Long lines, disinterested employees with nothing but their time to take up your time.

Good luck to the great people of the UK, but LHR is a disaster. Can not imagine what the new cluster will look like when the other US carriers turn up there in a few days. I wake up at night hearing, "delays are running Three Zero minutes, I will call you back". I think that might be the best we see in some of the coming months.

Perhaps you guys feel the same way about JFK? Not sure if it is painful for you as LHR has become for the other team.
Lambourne

[Storminnorm]

Many thanks to silverelise, post #352, for the up-dated version
of the wonderful banner reading "Welcome to your new home".
Very well done, and very apt! Thanks.:D

[BAengineering]

No Ubreakmefix, not psychic, pure psycho...... Then most of BA employees are feelimg mentally stretched with the sheer unadulterated incompetence of our leadership team and their leaching underlings.

Glad to be of service, if 78 flights is the total, email Willie @

[email protected] or instead of calling that stupid helpline that is always engaged, why not give his lordship a call on +44 20 8738 5117 and tell him what you really think of his performance. Maybe if anyone has any suitable job offers they may wish to make him a proposal?

Sure his inbox will be full of complementary musings from his supporters telling him how he should stay on and see through this move into that big bad building that bit him so hard on his tiny arse......

Alll things are small with Wee Willie, budgets, training even his apologies!!!

[SWBKCB]

Enough about cancelled flights - who can address the important points like how are the retail takings doing?? :rolleyes:

[BAengineering]

Nice collectgion of famous quotes from Wee Willie;

From telegraph;

Willie Walsh, chief executive of British Airways, had sought to assure us at the beginning of this month: "The opening of Heathrow's Terminal 5 will change the way international travellers look at Britain"

Damn right it did Willie, you really are a man of your word...:D

[chris weston]

Love BAEng's term of disapprobation "leaching underlings"; pun or not Day 2 LHR T5 is still washed up it seems.

On a statistical basis it has to get better. It must get better.

CW

Love to fly :ok:, hate to shop :{.

[BAengineering]

Channel 4 news link - Terminal farce

http://www.channel4.com/player/v2/player.jsp?showId=11552

[i.Plane]

Still waiting for my bag.... we were stuck on the BA aircraft for 2 hours, Very poor handling from the captain... if at least he would say that he has no news either, something, anything but not saying anything at all?? He let his cabin crew down because they were getting all the hasle from the passengers. Passengers were very nice for the first 1h45min but then they got fed up. First the crew refused to leave with only half the bags on board. (At reclaim at the destination airport there were only about 20 people to report their lost bags). Then they said that they would leave with nog bags...

T5 looks very flash, it would be nice if it would work but I'm not suprised that it doesn't. Most peole I met when working around London just don't care, nobody cares, nobody takes responsibilities, you continuously get passed to another call center, nobody knows about anything.

Additionaly, at least one thing didn't change when T5 opened. BA still doesn't leave on time.

[greekdalek]

BA = Bl***y Awful

BAA = Bl***y Awful Aswell

I won't bother with the plc bit - it might get too rude:sad:

[Storminnorm]

All this terminal 5 blather is going to pall into insignificance
before too long when WWW ,aka,Wonderful Willie Walsh, takes
on the pilots over his wonderful " Open Skies " brainwave.
Think youv'e got problems now Willie, Just wait and see how
problematic life really CAN become. Boy o Boy!:=

[BAengineering]

Stormin, really hate to :mad: on your parade, whilst i agree completely with what your saying, there is the 'other' thread for that kind'a comment. However while we're on subject, he can't, he wouldn't, do you really think he'd have anything left of his tiny ball bag after this fiasco to risk getting his scrotum squeezed anymore by out professional and very dedicate colleagues at the pointy end bit... ( I get confused on 777 as the rear is more pointy than the front)


There is a wind of change a blowing through BA, it is time for all of the employees to stand together as one, pull together as a team, get 'winning for customers' and rid ourselves of a whole load of empty ballast holding us back.

Oh, that's you Willy and the LT team if your reading

[Hand Solo]

Sadly I really think he will push it. It's starting to become apparent that WWs strategy is to blindly pursue whatever idea comes into his head with little regard for reality. It's his airline, and his right to manage it is more important to him than the fallout of his ideas.

[BAengineering]

Is it only me that found the phrase 'baggage performing issues' as a description of the debacle that was T5 opening as very amusing?

THe bags didn't perform as expected?

Naughty underperforming bags, samsonite was the least obedient, though the Delsey was very compliant to managements wishes. Indeed strangely for some observers the Victorinox 'swiss army' cases really rallied around when the going got tough and helped out in true military style. Certainly the lowerclass baggage from Tesco's was just plain stubborn in its flat refusal to co-operate. These unruly types just told WW and his management BIGWIGS to BOGOFF.

I can just imagine the next big management performance meeting, powerpoints at the ready with a chart detailing the 'baggage performance' chart!!!!!!

Losers......

[Ken Wells]

Spanish owned BAA spokesman Manuel said today " I know nuthink" I come from Barcelona"

[Storminnorm]

Sorry BAengineering, but you can bet your sweet back-side
that it will end in blood and tears.
This present situation will only serve to make confrontation
inevitable.
Willy will be going balls out to try to get some credibility back,
but has already revealed MAJOR weakness to the whole World.
I'm sorry to have raised this issue here, but it needs to be put
forward.
Perhaps I shouldn't have raised it now, and I am sorry.:sad:
PS Try finding the nose wheels to find the proper pointy bit.:ok:

[manrow]

You cannot blame all this mess on Willy.

This is part of the Heathrow malaise where it is always someone else's fault.

Without Willy I don't think the airline would have still been here; so think again!

[Splodge2]

1. Inadequate staff parking (BAA problem)
2. Inadequate staff numbers for a showcase opening (BA problem)
3. Indequate security staff to screen workers (BAA problem)
4. Baggage backlog due lack of staff, baggage system fails (BA problem)
5. Technical fault with baggage system (BAA problem)
6. Numerous other shortges and failures in equipment and staff (Both BAA and BA)
That reads as inadequate staff by both BAA and BA to ensure any last minute glitches could be coped with.

Vino, I'm blaming this 100% squarely on BA and would answer your points above like this:-

1. How many spaces did BA request BAA to provide for Staff?
3. How many staff did BA tell BAA to resource up for?
5. I dont belive that there was a baggage system fault at all other than one surrounding the lack of BA loaders.
6. How much equipment did BA request from BAA in the first instance?

What acceptance testing of T5 did BA themselves actually undertake? looks to me like none!

My view is that Willy's clowns didnt undertake enough "mass testing" of T5 and left it all to BAA. BAA can only resource up for the figures that BA requested which would obviously have a cost associated with it. I bet BA chipped and chipped away at BAA's charges and ended up buying a Lada rather than an BMW let alone a Rolls Royce!

BA are now a laughing stock and need a big big clear out of managers at all levels in order to change the culture which starts at the board level. Where were the contingency plans? How many BA "managers" got their "hands dirty" and helped the baggage problem.... None I bet!

I feel sorry for BAA who can only work with the information that they are supplied with by BA.

I'm a shareholder of BA and obviously appauled at the total incomptenance of BA and will be asking questions at the AGM if there is any space in the queue or if the company survives that long!! When is the AAIB report on the 777 incident? If the 777 was at fault surely they would have all been grounded by now so I wonder who else can be responsible?

BA forget the grinning cabin crew and smart lounges, get back to basics and provide a quality service for a quality price. Employ some fresh blood and work at the end to end customer experience which starts with flights on time and being able take luggage!

United for me across the pond from now on!

[Hand Solo]

I beg to differ. Rod Eddington and Andrew Sentance left BA in pretty good shape financially. If the airline owes it's survival to anyone it's AS. The Heathrow malaise exists because management refuse to listen, they are incentivised not to. That is in no small part the work of WW.

[BAengineering]

Just saw this on Wickipedia;

Early life
Walsh was born in Dublin (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dublin), Ireland (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Republic_of_Ireland). He attended his local secondary school Ardscoil Rís (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ardscoil_R%C3%ADs). At the age of 17 he became a pilot at Irish (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ireland) flag carrier (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flag_carrier) Aer Lingus (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aer_Lingus), joining as a cadet (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cadet) in 1979 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1979). During his time as a pilot he acted as chief negotiator for the Irish Airline Pilots Association (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Irish_Airline_Pilots_Association&action=edit&redlink=1) (IALPA) and is quoted during this time that "a reasonable man gets nowhere in negotiations". (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/4330349.stm) He also acquired a Master's degree (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Master%27s_degree) in management and business administration from Trinity College, Dublin (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trinity_College%2C_Dublin) during his pilot years. 1 (http://www.flightmapping.com/news/17.aspx)
He later joined company management, with various positions including that of Chief Executive (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chief_Executive) of then company subsidiary, Futura (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Futura_International_Airways) from 1998 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1998) to 2000 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2000).

[edit (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Willie_Walsh_%28Irish_businessman%29&action=edit&section=2)] Aer Lingus Chief Executive

In October 2001 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/October_2001) he was appointed Chief Executive from his then position of Chief Operating Officer (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chief_Operating_Officer), succeeding Michael Foley who had resigned following a harassment complaint. The carrier was in financial difficulty in the wake of the market downturn following the events of September 11, 2001 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/September_11%2C_2001), losing £ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irish_Pound)2m per day[citation needed (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Citation_needed)]. Walsh took action by eliminating 2,000 staff positions, reducing the number of aircraft types and selling non-core assets, including an art collection at the company headquarters. He reconfigured Aer Lingus as a low cost airline (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Low_cost_airline) in imitation of Ryanair (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ryanair), and began withdrawing from various services like short-haul Business Class and cargo services and heavily restricting the airline's frequent flyer programme (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frequent_flyer_programme), TAB.
The company operating profits rebounded but the cost of the write-offs and redundancies meant that net profitability was not as quick to recover. Not all of Walsh's reforms were successful, such as the outsourcing of aircraft cleaning. The contracting had not been agreed with Aer Lingus unions which led to large payments to the private contractor while Aer Lingus employees did the cleaning work. A three day lockout (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lockout_%28industry%29) occurred in 2002 during the peak of the cutbacks.
The management team suggested to the principal shareholder, the Irish Government (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irish_Government), a float of Aer Lingus on the stock market (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stock_market). Stock floats are often rewarding to top management and this was opposed by the unions who feared a privatised Aer Lingus would impose even tougher working conditions. The Government eventually turned down the float and this led to Walsh and other management executives resigning from the company in January 2005 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/January_2005).
The Irish prime minister, Bertie Ahern (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bertie_Ahern), subsequently described Walsh's offer of an MBO as "[a time] when management wanted to steal the assets for themselves through a management buy out, shafting staff interests." Dáil record, 17 May 2006 (http://debates.oireachtas.ie/DDebate.aspx?F=DAL20060517.xml&Dail=29&Ex=All&Page=1).
Dermot Mannion (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dermot_Mannion), formerly of Emirates Airline (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emirates_Airline), succeeded Walsh as Aer Lingus Chief Executive.

[edit (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Willie_Walsh_%28Irish_businessman%29&action=edit&section=3)] British Airways Chief Executive

The British Airways (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Airways) board were seeking a successor to Chief Executive Rod Eddington (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rod_Eddington) who had announced plans to return to his native Australia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Australia) at the end of his contract. Walsh was hired in May 2005 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/May_2005) at the age of 43 with a six month shadowing period to get to know the business before the departure of Eddington on October 1 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/October_1), 2005 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2005).
Since Willie Walsh took over the reins of British Airways as CEO in October 2005, he has headed the airline during a time of unprecedented turmoil and industrial relations problems.
Summer 2005 - ground staff walk out in support of Gate Gourmet
Summer 2006 - Fuel surcharge price fixing - airline fined record £270 million
Summer 2006 - British Airways was announced by the Association of European Airlines as having lost the most luggage in 2006 compared to other major European airlines. For every 1000 passengers carried, it lost 23 bags, 46% more than the average March 2008 - T5 Chaos - opening of £4.3 billion heathrow terminal descends into chaos.

Famous 'not our finest hour' quote by Willie Walsh

In an interview provided for Skynews Mr Walsh vowed to stay on at the airline, probably to sort out his own mess.


Feel free to go edit and add your own comments to the historical document.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Willie_Walsh_%28Irish_businessman%29#British_Airways_Chief_E xecutive

[118.70]

Searching for what google had to tell me about Andrew Wolstenhome, I came across this interesting little Powerpoint presentation , presumably from BAA to some regulatory body.

http://www.baa.com/assets/B2CPortal/Static%20Files/regulation_terminal5.pdf

At that time (2003), Andrew was T5 Construction Director and slide 52 talks about how T5 would learn from other projects (e.g. Denver).
Denver failed "to realise the criticality of the baggage handling system to the overall project in time"

The mitigation for T5 was to have "a highly visible Baggage Team within project governance structure and Independent Project Board"

Another issue would be helped by having "operational expertise integrated into the Project Team."

Andrew appears to have risen to Director of Capital Projects for BAA.

It would be interesting to hear how his mitigation plans worked out since 2003.


Incidentally, I think it unfair to criticise Stephen Nelson as being unable to organise festivities at a brewery. I had the pleasure when he was MD of Guinness UK of him shutting the brewery down for a day and bussing the entire UK workforce to a filmset where we participated in various artistic endeavours (including line-dancing and drumming) culminating in a cringe-making finale where he was presented with a guitar on which he could jam along to us all.

[The Little Prince]

Sadly I really think he will push it. It's starting to become apparent that WWs strategy is to blindly pursue whatever idea comes into his head with little regard for reality. It's his airline, and his right to manage it is more important to him than the fallout of his ideas.

"He" being Willie Walsh. Not much like you at all then Hand, because after all, you KNOW you're right! And as we know, the BACC has the right to manage as well - particularly if they disagree with Willie.:eek:

[boaclhryul]

Is there an airport equivalent to JADEC that enumerates "Latest Hall Loss Accidents"...?

Michael

[RTM Boy]

With BAA mortgaged up to its eyeballs in £billions of debt courtesy of Ferovial, perhaps they didn't have the cash to finish T5?

That's why the lifts don't work (a case of "elevatory non-conformity" as WW might describe it) - they couldn't afford the electricity to test them, or anything else.

Security swipe cards not working? That'll be "workforce processing misalignment"...:ok:

[pasoundman]

BAengineering
Walsh ..... also acquired a Master's degree in management and business administration from Trinity College, Dublin

Oh fancy that ! I am so NOT surprised he has an MBA. MBAs are like the kiss of death to any organisation.


Walsh ..... is quoted ... that "a reasonable man gets nowhere in negotiations".

Speaks volumes. He SHOULD resign I'm sure but I can't see it happening.

I'm curious just how long the fiasco will continue. I can't see them fixing it any time soon yet if they don't who is going to want to fly with BA ?

[the heavy heavy]

is the little ponce in need of medication?

Hand a spot on observation. This man's ego will now absolutley refuse to back down on OS. He needs a victory to distract his next employer s from the disaster that he had 3 years to get ready for. We the pilots will be his smoke and mirrors.

If the board let him it really will be time to put the buy orders in for 90p.

As for the crack smoking lunatic who believes WW has saved BA! manrow what exactly do you do for a living?

[Viewfrom5Bells]

no longer top story on bbc.co.uk/news. The bits of T5 my colleagues in IM look after worked perfectly but then we are able to scratch our arse without having to be instructed.

[BAengineering]

Viewfrom5Bells,

you must have a view from the pub, are you pi55ed?

This is not a story, it is a national disgrace, and typical of all the 'clean' suited types at BA your bit was ok. Well good for you that a computer programme you didn;t design and have to call in the developers if a byte goes wrong.

Certainly the reason you know how to scratch your arse is because that's what you practically do from 9-5.

Oh the waterworld Trolls are back:\

[ChristiaanJ]

Even French TV news had a nice one tonight about the shambles.
No "we could have done better", just a few select snippets of the chaos.

[BAengineering]

BBC QUOTE:

Mid-morning they, and we, all rush to hear BA chief executive Willie Walsh admit Thursday's events were Not Good. (understatement)
He sweats under the lights of the cameras.
But presumably it's not only the heat that's making him perspire.


And unlike our friends in baggage dept, it was most certainly not honest sweat. It was the sort of sweat you would expect to collect from a slimey belly crawling lizard, crawling from the underside of a large garden slug.

[Hand Solo]

The bits of T5 my colleagues in IM look after worked perfectly but then we are able to scratch our arse without having to be instructed.

Thats good to hear. Now can you sort out that abortion of a system called Crewlink that your department inflicted on 15000 of your colleagues? You've had at least 4 years and it's still a bag of sh*te. After that you can start on BidBuilder.

[BAengineering]

I am sorry to say I really dislike Viewfrom5bells, to say the story is dieing and has dropped of BBC top stories is plainly ridiculous. ( i have czeched)

It's a little like WW's early morning quote to CNN's Richard Quest that he thought all things considered the morning has gone well.

Waterworld trolls, the inane ability to ignore reality, an ingrained characteristic they share with other lunatics.

For the record, T5 Chaos is number 2 on BBC top stories.:ugh:

[Private jet]

I worked for BA for several years as an engineer before i started flying, during what many would regard as BA's "golden age" in the 90's. Even back then i became progressively more dissillusioned with the type of person that always seemed to get promoted to management positions. Apart from wanting to go flying its the main reason that i left.
In the main, they were;
1. YES men. "YES we can do this.. YES we can do that... no problem" was the line to their superiors. "Make this happen...YOU make this happen" was the line to their subordinates. That does not take a lot of intelligence
2. They were "arse crawlers" before promotion
3. They were arrogant after promotion. That old rhyme "The working class can kiss my arse, i've got the bosses job at last" is very applicable.
Willy Wonka is, in my opinion not as talented as he thinks he is. But, there is also a whole tier of BA middle management who are the same. They consider themselves to be "top drawer clever dicks". They are not.
Dispatching Wonka will not solve BA's problems, the problem is deeper than that.
Also, i think some of the "ashamed" BA staff need to do a bit of soul searching too. I recall in my time there that there was a lot of the "thats not my job/problem" attitude and some aircrew were obsessed with trivial matters with respect to status and money (my father was senior flightcrew at the time and can vouch for the somewhat petty behaviour of his collegues)
I hope BA does not suffer as a result of this T5 fiasco (remember they are having to top up the pension scheme with X millions of pounds per year)

[BAengineering]

As we speak the BBC talking point has 71 pages of customer comments, a record and the story is dieing. Sadly this is one of the top recommended comments;

Added: Friday, 28 March, 2008, 09:41 GMT 09:41 UK
Two simple rules for easy travelling:

1. Never fly with BA unless you absoutely have no choice.
2. Only use Heathrow if you can't fly from any other airport
Elizabeth Straker (http://newsforums.bbc.co.uk/nol/profile.jspa?userID=5544540&edition=1&ttl=20080328221134)
Recommended by 141 people

I think business is going to drop of rather sharply, advance bookings no looking too clever.

[Preppy]

Rather than getting better as promised by Willie Walsh, the T5 shambles may be getting worst. My flight to Munich tomorrow (Sat) has been cancelled and as there weren't any other seats available on BA, I have been re booked on Sunday morning's flight. Four hours later I find out that the Sunday morning flight has also been "chopped".

Can anyone explain the reason for the continuing disaster?

[Skipness One Echo]

Calamity at Heathrow still led the BBC news at 10pm and front page on the Evening Standard again. There's a massive feeling of anger out there, no wonder that BA Manager ran from the press poor guy heh heh.

[infrequentflyer789]

I know I'm being incredibly naive but a more balanced view from the UK media would be welcomed. The BBC and Sky still have scolling banners proclaiming "more flights cancelled" or similar. To my knowledge no new flights have been cancelled today - i.e. other than the 36 that were planned and published at the start of the day.

More flights have been cancelled, 54 by my count, - straight from ba.com:


British Airways plans to operate 293 out of 347 scheduled flights to and from Heathrow Terminal 5 on Saturday 29 March 2008.


So they cancelled 36 (you say) on Friday to create a "firebreak" to sort things out, and as a result things were obviously so much "better" that they've had to cancel more flights to make another firebreak on Saturday.

[BAengineering]

My word, the beast is growing horns!

Skynews (oh and it's their TOP story) states the following;

Weekend travel misery for Heathrow Terminal 5 passengers has been confirmed after British Airways announced 59 flights have been cancelled tomorrow.

That's more than todays 38 !!!! Holy smoly the wheel is really off the trolley. I've changed my mind, sorry Willy you can stay,

[Sunfish]

http://www.employersworld.co.uk/Articles/article.php?id=10"

Lies, Self-Love and Paranoia

Adrian Furnham discusses the types of dysfunctional managers found only too often at the top of organisations.


Adrian Furnham
Professor of Psychology at University College London.

Recent research compared the personalities of in-mates of a maximum security prison and successful CEOs of quoted companies. The game, of course, was to find similarities rather than differences. And this is indeed what was found. The groups are most similar on three personality disorders; anti-social, narcissistic and paranoid.


.................The narcissistic manager is marked by grandiosity (in fantasy or behaviour), need for admiration, and lack of empathy. Self-centred, selfish, egotistical: they are everywhere in business – alas. They are self-important and exaggerate their successes and talents, expecting to be recognised as superior without commensurate achievements. Most are preoccupied with fantasies of unlimited success, power, brilliance and money. They believe they are special and unique and can only be understood by, or should associate with, other special or high-status people (or institutions). They may try to ‘buy’ themselves into exclusive circles.

Read the rest yourself.

[BAengineering]

BA press dept admit they cocked it up!!

http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2008/mar/28/theairlineindustry.britishairwaysbusiness3

like the bit about Mr Deadwood running away from the press pack without answering a single question.

'Instead of taking questions, he ran off once the statement was complete.
Another mistake, admits Simpson, but again down to the fact he had little up-to-date information to impart.'

Or is that 'he is a clueless imbecile':hmm:

[BAengineering]

Sunfish I read it and am very worried as I have all the characteristics except I don't have a high powered job and suit. Just fix the bits the flyers bust enroute.

I better go see my shrink or maybe a career advisor, could I make it to the top of a PLC with all these wonderful personality disorders?

[BAengineering]

Financial times;

'Walsh’s fate lies with BA shareholders not passengers'

full article here

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/c3b03f38-fd01-11dc-961e-000077b07658,s01=1.html

[BAengineering]

Looks like AUC will be fining BA

Check this out

http://travel.timesonline.co.uk/tol/life_and_style/travel/news/article3642905.ece

BA looking at the cheap option again, more egg on face!!

What a bunch of wallies

[David Roberts]

I hope WW is going to refund my additional hotel bill etc and alternative route / airline back to UK. First BA flight Friday evening OSL-LHR cancelled, now I find Saturday's cancelled as well. Now shopping for anything but BA / LHR.

[BAengineering]

Willy your FIRED!

http://business.timesonline.co.uk/multimedia/archive/00305/alansugar165_305612a.jpg

Get your coat:D

£614,000 smakaroonies a year, now that's rich.......

[Vino Collapso]

IMHO a turning point is approaching.

WW will have to leave BA, maybe not immediately but certainly in the not too distant future. He will go with a golden handshake and a chorus of support from 'The Board' who actually will be glad to see him go. But publicly the politics will have to be seen otherwise. The new guy will have a mountain to climb but a few concessions to staff will have him looking good externally. But beware internallly as all thse CEO's are the same in the longer term. (save money, increase profitability, cut staff costs)

BAA is dying on its feet. Only a matter of time before its parts are sold off. But who will be brave enough to take on the monster of LHR?

[Petley]

Seems like BA are facing fines over their alleged false claims information given to passengers.

http://travel.timesonline.co.uk/tol/life_and_style/travel/news/article3642905.ece

[Wod]

Sorry if someone has mentioned The Pythons already. Too many posts to wade through for my attention span.

I first heard this enroute SYD-LHR many years ago.

http://www.lyricsdepot.com/monty-python/im-so-worried.html

[Blue heaven]

Flew through SIN recently, on opening day plus one for their new terminal - clockwork!! Efficient smiling faces ever willing to help. Relaxed, clean and even during the peak, an air of tranquilness.

Now comape this to LHR where we departed (T4) from 12 hours earlier - dirty, smelly and ques everywhere. Grumpy ole men, and women, demonstrating their displeasure at being there onto the poor (no option after getting sucked in at the grotty shopping mall checkouts) punters.

Send some of the so-called experts to other regions to learn how to do the job properley!!!

[flyr767]

Anything new with the logistics of a large international airport is going to have problems that will take at least a couple weeks to work out all the kinks. I wouldn't worry too much about it.

[al446]

You lookin for a BA/A management job Fly67? Otherwise you are being overkind.

[Solar]

Similar experience as Blue Heaven, came through Sing's new terminal recently from LHR chalk and cheese.
fly767
It may be a new terminal but its not exactly the first one is it?
I assume that it will eventually come together but that seems to be the norm in the UK these days, it'l be alright on the night.

[ThreadBaron]

Just received an e-mail from Flybe offering 'alternatives' to BA and T5.

They might be onto a winner!

[HectorusRex]

Willie's not leaving on a jet plane just yet

By Damian Reece
Last Updated: 1:35am GMT 29/03/2008
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/money/main.jhtml?xml=/money/2008/03/29/ccom129.xml&DCMP=EMC-mcn_29032008
Should Willie Walsh resign? The comedy of errors at Terminal 5 (funny for us, not so funny for British Airways customers) will go down as one of history's great corporate gaffes.
• Terminal 5 joins the list of top PR blunders
• T5 fiasco won't be terminal for Walsh
• Read more of Damian Reece
The opening days of T5 have resulted in embarrassment as complete as that other London white elephant, the Millennium Dome, whose grand opening was just as dreadful. Each bookmark a period when infrastructure problems have become acute. T5 was supposed to be the answer to at least some of these problems, yet isn't working.
However, just as the Dome finally found a useful purpose as an entertainment venue, T5 will come into its own and very soon. This week's chaos has heaped deserved derision on Walsh and the management of BAA, where chairman Nigel Rudd recently replaced his chief executive, and must call into question Walsh's thought process. How could he allow the most high-profile public relations event in BA's history to fail?
Given the fact that he personally welcomed the Queen to the grand opening of T5, he can hardly shirk his responsibility.
But with lessons learnt, in three months time a smoothly operating T5 will mean that these past few days are a fast receding memory. The chaos will damage BA's reputation a little more but it regularly survives similarly chaotic scenes caused by all manner of issues from the weather to industrial disputes. This will not dent profits, and a 3pc fall in the share price is easily recoverable. In the context of these factors, a Walsh resignation appears too dramatic a reaction.
Am I being as complacent as Walsh was over T5's opening? No, because resignation remains a distinct possibility if, by the end of next month, the situation has not radically improved. This is when flights from T4 should have been moved to the new terminal.
This next phase will now probably have to be delayed for a time, but if that delay is significant, and the recent chaos not resolved, then that will be the time for him to go.

[Walnut]

I believe the end of April is going to be the crunch time for T5 when most of the longhaul flights move from T4. At the moment about 40% of BA's pax are using T5, & the system is just about coping with a 20% of these planned flights culled !!!!. So when the rest arrive what then???
If the story is true that BA is to be heavily fined for all the disrupted PAX, (say £1000 x 10000 pax pd = £10M pd my best guess) then it would be cheaper for the airline to shut down.!!!!!!

[BAengineering]

Oh you missed the bit of the article that leaves a big query,

'did Mr Walsh ignore his staff warnings?' If so his head has got to roll.

Well I for one emailed him my personal views over one month ago, what do you think happened? Nothing.... no response.

COmputer says no.... Oh OH

[BAengineering]

Simon Calder: "By the end of Day One, BA's chief executive may have been praying for fog, to obscure the national embarrassment that he helped to perpetrate."


complete article here

http://www.independent.co.uk/travel/news-and-advice/simon-calder-terminal-turmoil-for-british-airways-802310.html

[warkman]

I like this :p:p

http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/news/society/richard-branson-dies-laughing-20080328826/

Its all a plot by BAA. Trap passengers at T5, more retail sales :ok:

[qwertyplop]

To be honest - this is the bit I just don't get.

What bit of any of this made anyone think that Great Britian would deliver a world class terminal on time - to budget and without problems.

The staff that turned up for work on the first day were NOTHING to do with the problems. The problems are an endemic and systemic failure of project management - communication and oversight. These factors combined to make the mess BAA and BA are in today but it's a mess with global dimensions that reflect really where we are in the world today.

Moreover - it's like just about everything else that is undertaken on any scale in the UK today. Olympics in 2012 - if people are laughing now what will they be doing in 2012?

What have the government done? What price any remaining but rapidly diminishing semblance of national reputation we may have left? Come to Britain to spend your money and locate your companies the government cries - well if you were the CEO of a large multi-national - what the hell would you think?

I'd be setting up my plant in China frankly.

Tn5 is an analogy for New Labour and the Great Britain that they created in their image.

[ConstantFlyer]

From the Retail Gazette: A brand new state-of-the-art shopping centre has opened in west London. Situated at an erstwhile international crossroads, the centre opened its doors – and some of its lifts and escalators – to prospective shoppers in a blaze of publicity. Hundreds of shopkeepers and restaurateurs braced themselves for a massive influx of retail fans eager to experience the architecturally-enhanced designer-laden shopping opportunities that the centre was keen to offer.


The celebrations were cut short, however, by the appearance of a vast flash mob of besuited business travellers and so-called holidaymakers wielding heavily-laden suitcases. Uninterested in availing themselves of architecturally-enhanced shopping experiences, the masses lined-up their baggage trolleys and formed themselves into queues, chanting their mantra: “Check-it-in, check-it-in”.


Faced with such a lack of spending customers, shop staff left their handbag displays and pyramids of faux tins of cheap imitation Scottish shortbread to go in search of them. Their route was barred, however, by a huge backlog of fluorescent jacket-wearing baggage handlers queueing to get through a single security control point.


Shopping Centre manager Mr I.N. Visibleman said “I have no comment, as I'm not here”. Chief Sales Director Mr Y.R. Wewaiting said “I am delighted that so many paying customers have decided to make use of our architecturally-enhanced shopping facility today, and to spend so much time and money with us. It has been such a success that we are considering adding extra benefits for our longest-suffering shoppers, such as beds and planes.”


The shopping centre is thought to be in line for an award – the Hounslow Market Traders Most Innovative Stall Award, together with a special commendation for its see-through canopy and see-through sales figures. Senior management are looking forward to visiting Buckingham Palace Road job centre with their P45s. Normal service is expected to be achieved some time in 2011.

[derekvader]

There's a couple of flights that have managed to get away this morning with only a 25 minute delay but most of them are still departing over an hour late, according to the real time flight info from BAA's site http://www.heathrowairport.com/.

Why are the first flights of the day still going out an hour late?

[openfly]

I was on the first departure to CDG on the 27th. Yes we departed on time and the service on board was perfect. Why is this not the norm rather than an exception? (I have never seen so many 'men in suits' at the gate!)
The T5 experience should have been perfect on the first day.

This morning, two days after the opening, I received a shiny brochure from the BA Executive Club singing the praises of T5....the first sentence begins 'We are just weeks away from the opening of T5....'!! They cant even get this right...

All very sad. But I bet that there will be umpteen knighthoods and medals dished out for a 'job well done'.

[Southernboy]

Re BA Engineering's earlier post:

"like the bit about Mr Deadwood running away from the press pack without answering a single question.

'Instead of taking questions, he ran off once the statement was complete.
Another mistake, admits Simpson, but again down to the fact he had little up-to-date information to impart.'

Or is that 'he is a clueless imbecile':hmm: "

He has form. After presiding over chaos in Bristol a few years ago he also refused to face the angry public.

It is THE mark of a responsible manager. Anyone remember M Bishop after Kegworth? That's how you do it.

[theredbarron]

I flew down from EDI to T5 yesterday morning and we were on stand for 15 minutes before any BA staff arrived to position the air bridge onto the aircraft. Some colleagues who arrived from MAN just after me waited for 35 minutes for the same reason. Both flights were on-time arrivals. This has to be pure and simple crap resource management by BA ; not something they can blame on technology.

We all switched to BD for the return flights back north but by the looks of things those departures that did get away last night were all running pretty late.

[Geezers of Nazareth]

And, to put that into perspective ... I have seen exactly the same happening in T3 (they still have a few flights operating from there). BA 747 pulls onto stand, no BA staff anywhere to be seen. Nobody to apply ground power, nobody to apply chocks, no ground engineer with a headset to talk to the crew. I've also seen the aircraft waiting for about 15 minutes before the jetty starts to move.
I'm a 'ramp agent' myself, so I know what should happen; if I did something similar (or, not, as the case may be), my a&%e would be kicked from one end of the airport to the other.

[xs-baggage]

Because the staff in the public eye - check-in, cabin crew - are superbly professional and a credit to our industry and to the UK.

Because the backroom boys and girls - flight deck, baggage hall, engineering, and the rest - are skilled, dedicated, and committed.

Not only Mr Walsh but every other manager in a service industry should remember that
1. Long-term profit comes from paying customers.
2. The points at which the customers interact with the business are critical and staff in these positions have a right to full management support at all levels and at all times.

I was saddened to hear of assaults on BA staff. What a sick society we have become.

[ZFT]

Unfortunately you are as good as your weakest link, whether it is cleaners, ramp staff or as you put it, the staff in the public eye. BA management seem to be weak everywhere.

As to being a credit to the UK!!!!!!

[G-CPTN]

Heard a quote from some BA guy (might even have been WW) that the situation for passengers (yesterday) had been somewhat better, as most had checked before travelling and discovered that their flights had been cancelled so didn't turn up . . .
That's the trouble that bus drivers have - having to stop to pick up and put down passengers. Without passengers transport operations could run 'efficiently'.

[172driver]

Because the staff in the public eye - check-in, cabin crew - are superbly professional and a credit to our industry and to the UK.

Because the backroom boys and girls - flight deck, baggage hall, engineering, and the rest - are skilled, dedicated, and committed.

One would hope you say this tongue firmly in cheek. Then again, given you are a first-time poster, you're probably working for this sad outfit.

One really has to wonder how far this mis-management extends in BA. While in the past it would never have crossed my mind to doubt the high standards of the behind-the-scenes work, nagging doubts about the whole operation start to creep into my mind.....

[colegate]

IMHO this shambles will give government all the ammunition to "destroy" BAA. I guess that when the Competition Commission they will recommend that LHR is sold. The sale of either LHR or LGW will not change the way the company behaves. The sale of LHR will. It will be floated on the stock exchange. New management will transform it from the unloved beast that it now is to a great company.

BA will have to do something radical to improve. Perhaps Alan Mullaly should be recruited from Ford.

[Local Variation]

The truth of the matter is that the dust will settle; Joe Public will calm down; normal mundane life will return at LHR and this weeks news will be next weeks fish and chips papers.

That's the British way.

As for BA. Time has proved again and again that their brand is bomb proof and this will turn out to be just another example.

As an aside, where did WW get his Operations Director from ? Strewth, like myself, I'm sure most viewers thought "no wonder" when we watched his juvenile, inept, turn and leg it performance on the Beeb on Thursday night.

As someone else has previously eluded too, it would have been a different day had a certain "proud to be British" BA predecessor been pacing the gleaming new floors with his braces and Union Jack tie.

[TURIN]

Have the management really damaged relationships that much that the staff are helping to destroy their own company?

That's about right.

Sad isn't it? :sad:

[muppitt]

It appears that BBC film crews and reporters have been banned from interviewing pax and filming inside T5.

Astonishing!

[ThreadBaron]

Does anyone else remember the job ad that BA put out a couple(?) of months ago for a Service Recovery Manager.

By God! Someone will be earning their package this week!:uhoh:

[Val d'Isere]

Its the first few days of a complex new operation. No surprise there's been problems. Not helped by the snowball effect. I think we'll still see very healthy profits for all concerned once all is up and running.

However the BA Ops guy should delegate TV statements in future. Some, like him, have an unfortunate knack of coming across badly, for whatever reason.

[Skipness One Echo]

Even the damage control is appalling here. Look at Branson after the Virgin Rail derailment, open, upset and empathetic with his customers and those affected. As was said, Mr Bishop after Kegworth. Perhaps not a loss of life but mayhem and delay all round still. They are media amateurs it seems, a long way from the days of Lord King and Colin Marshall.

[Gertrude the Wombat]

no option after getting sucked in at the grotty shopping mall checkouts
Why is everybody going on about shops at airports?

My last several recent trips through airports go like this:

(1) Arrive two hours before take-off, as that's the earliers the check-in desk opens.

(2) Queue two hours for check-in.

(4) Queue forty minutes for security.

(5) Get onto plane late, and continue to wait on plane for the other late passengers to finish queueing.

OK, if you're travelling with someone, one of you can keep the position in the queue whilst the other goes off to get some sandwiches, so you can have a "meal" consisting of eating sandwiches standing up in a queue, but there's no other opportunity to do any shopping.

Has it not occurred to airport mangements that if the punters didn't have to spend all their time queueing they might actually get to spend some money in the shops?

[rubik101]

I suspect MO'L had a hand in the chaos at T5.
Yet again yesterday he is quoted as saying that BAA needs to be broken up. The mismanagement over T5 simply reinforces his argument.
btw, he actually prepared a press statement yesterday that did NOT mention that there would be no fuel surcharges, ever.
However, later in the day, announcing the loss of 40 jobs at the call centre in Dublin, he did manage to add it to the end of the statement.

[threegreenlights]

Thought I would take a long weekend off in beautiful Prague...great idea:D and fly from the new terminal 5:ugh:

Now I am here late and without my luggage...thanks to BA/BAA and the T5 fiasco. Well Messrs Walsh and Kirkwood and the unnamed BAA management - your airport shops do you proud...lots of staff and things to buy - Not that I did!

Unfortunately airside is a shambles. Got through the gate two hours late...no announcements or apologies...nobody to put our luggage on the aircraft. So BA made a unilateral decision to fly us without it. Then we couldn't get a tug for a pushback? The Captain and crew were marvellous and tried to explain what they knew...
...Now I have to buy clothes and a new suitcase for the stay and journey home...P L E A S E BA/BAA don't lose these:=

...I know one thing - my flying days from T5 will be over sooner than I expected.:ok:

[Rollingthunder]

I've not travelled through T5 and probably won't as BA is not my airline, so I won't comment on the various fiascos, those utter failures of preparation and planning.

I've never understood what the attraction of the post-security shops are. There is no more duty-free. All they seem to do is hamper progression from security to the gates, so I usually get to glimpse the pricing. Unless the goods at them are actually cheaper then in peoples home countries - why bother? - and aside for possibly Scandinavia, I can't really think of anywhere where they would be cheaper. I laugh when I see the prices. Actually laugh.

I buy real duty-free onboard the flight home and save about 50% over the crap offered at LHR. I might buy a chocolate bar or have a cheeseburger at the pub, but that's it.

[skyman771]

Can someone enlighten me on the difference between Gerald Ratner & Willie Walsh other than that WW still retains his job ?

Sorry, but I think I have worked it out myself, Ratner admitted selling "crap" !:D

[Hand Solo]

Ratner was honest.

[Thomas Doubting]

Well I guess Willie’s knighthood is completely out of the window now! Perhaps a peerage would be the most appropriate piece of historical ‘baggage’ for him to carry, in his soon to become retirement, “ Lord Walsh of T5”. Very deserving I would say.

[BAengineering]

Ratner is taller than 5ft4"

Ratner has humility

Ratner ruined his OWN business

Ratner was actually 'joking' not serious in his remarks

You'd probably buy Gerald Ratner a beer


Oh I just found this the ROOTS of Willie Walsh' name

Forename: William
Origin: German (Root: William)
Meaning: Will Helmet
Surname: Walsh
Origin: A Welshman - A Gaul, which the Germans pronounce with a 'w,' as Wallic for Gaulic. Wallis, Wallish, Walsh. The Welsh were originally from Gaul.

Well that's it for me, what a combination, a Germanic Welshman with an Irish accent!!!!! No wonder he wants to destroy British business...

[BAengineering]

How funny,

SKYNEWS attached hidden cam to their luggage, go to skynews to watch!!!

Very inventive and funny;)

[sky9]

I understand that due to the poor publicity with T5 there will be a name change. In future it will be known as;
Little Willie's Comedy Warehouse.
Comedians are being recruited for a 24hr a day show, Ken Dodd and his Happiness Show from Knotty Ash will now be from Perry Oaks. He has been signed up for the first 5 hours so don't miss the last plane home, followed by an extended live version of Father Ted.

[biddedout]

I had the dubious pleasure of spending several hours in T5 on day one and had a lot of time to speak to staff. The underlying problem seemed to be a total lack of information and very few middle / senior managers on site able to make decisions and to apply some flexibility with the rules to keep things moving. Staff had identified many simple problems which could be fixed easily, but they were not allowed to change anything as Management had a plan and were sticking to it regardless. Only about ¼ of the fast bag drop desks were open and most were manned by staff who were having to make it up as they went along. After queuing for about 25 minutes at a “fast bag drop” we got to the front only to find the teenager behind the desk receiving a text message. She had to go, “it was what the phone told her”. So there we all were, the desk closed and we had to join another queue. This was just one example of a problem that could have been fixed easily, if there was anyone with authority on the shop floor. The general consensus was that most of the managers were hiding.

There was a small gaggle of managers hogging the seats in Nero complaining that they had been up since 4 am. It’s a good job no one who had hobble in from a long-haul flight heard those conversations. In between sipping his late, one was making loud calls to HQ explaining (apart from a few protesters) how well it was all going. A couple of hours later just as people started staggering out of baggage reclaim after a four hour wait, someone was overheard discussing with a BAA boss the fact that some bad news press reports were getting out and that they needed to “suppress” them. Wonder how they do that?

The general consensus of the front of house staff was that it was 90% good, but they were deeply frustrated at the lack of support or visibility from those above in listening to and dealing with the niggles which combined were bringing the place to it’s knees.

If BA / BAA are to be allowed to control such a massive public building, they should be forced to have some serious contingency plans in place. For starters, 10,000 deck chairs so that the people arriving in knackered off long-haul flights don’t have to sit on a marble floor waiting four hours for bags. Until basic human comfort provision is in place, they should be allowed to operate the building.

sky9. One of the helpers I met admitted that she didn't know anything about BA and didn't have any numbers for he moble phone since she was an actress and had just been hired in for the day to be nice to people. :rolleyes:

[172driver]

Watch this (http://video.news.sky.com/skynews/video/?&videoSourceID=1311107&flashURL=/feeds/skynews/latest/flash/baggagestone_290308_0900.flv) - hilarious.

[FAStoat]

I have never liked BA Management,ever since I lost a confirmed course and job with Britannia,when BA closed Hamble,and was told that a 21 year old Hamster was a better bet than a low houred 16/38 cat entry!!!Later on I had the misfortune to fly Lord King up to his shooting estate in Scotland,as Speedbird 1000,from an AOC Charter Company,usually nothing to do with Birdseed.Not only was he exceedingly rude,arrogant,he seemed totally unaware of what it entailed to fly himself and his Shooting Party,up North,and stated very loudly that any problems that may arise would be because the crew were not wearing BA Uniforms!!!!!Suffice it to say,everything went well and at least some of the pax actually expressed their thanks.Not so,Lord King,who stormed off into the distance to his Limo.All their problems stem from an air of arrogance, that pervades the entire company.So called mates of mine,having obtained their shiny 4 silver bars,used to say that apart from the "Checks",they never had a conversation with their F/O,nor even could remember his name!!!!I believe this still exists.This time the 7 Ps spring to mind,and should be firmly embedded on the Wonka Factory Bosses Head-Proper Prior Planning Prevents Piss Poor Performance.It could'nt have happened to a nicer Airline!!!!:D

[Hand Solo]

So called mates of mine,having obtained their shiny 4 silver bars,used to say that apart from the "Checks",they never had a conversation with their F/O,nor even could remember his name!!!!I believe this still exists

Sorry stoat but thats just pure, unadultered bullsh*t.

[monkeybusiness2]

Sorry 172driver what was so hilarious about it?

[Campbelldaniels]

Willy Walsh is a fun name. And he's Irish.

Expectation: personality, creativity, lateral thinking, inspiration, no bull****.

Realisation: an early-model android. It's not just that he's short. Michael Edwardes, who faced up to Red Robbo at BL, was short. It's that WW is short on stature, short on leadership and, above all, short on putting together a manageent team that don't look like the invasion of the body snatchers.

In the days running up to T5 launch, somebody told BA management that they hadn't had enough training/familiarisation with the luggage handling system. It doesn't matter whether that warning is genuine or mischevious. It's a dead cert that, unattended, it will prove itself to be correct on the fateful day. Who at BA did the baggage handlers' leader raise this concern/warning? Whoever it was, the warning was ignored. Of course, it wasn't relayed to WW because no one gets on in BA by imparting bad news to one's boss. That's typical corporate culture today. Only the right kind of boss at the top can encourage honest communication rather than whitewash. WW is clearly not that kind of boss. He is a drone surrounded by drones. Witness his performance when interviewed after the T5 meltdown. He actually thinks that saying sorry will help his PR. But the BA head of ops who read out to reporters a platudinous statement of the obvious, with all the personality of a speaking clock, and then glided away without answering any questions, that's the true and unacceptable face of BA. As long as WW allows such people to be senior managers at BA, the airline will continue to be a pseudo-nationalised basket case.

It's amazing that pilots can somehow overcome corporate obstacles of this magnitude and get aeroplanes safely to their destination. I feel so sorry for them. They are working for an airline that once had enormous prestige and through no fault of theirs, is now reviled.

[Pinkman]

OK, after wading through the entire thread I think we got the message: the project management was dire and the interface between BA, BAA, and the project was evidently faulty. (I'm being nice).

Longer term, it will settle down. But, what interests me is whether there are any takeaways in terms of BA management in other areas of the business. If they really are this bad at listening to staff and predicting managing and sorting problems, does this also mean that I should be concerned about things like maintenance and reliability, training, safety reporting, the decisions they made over their long-term fleet replacement, etc? Or is this just an isolated event? And those of you who know me know I'm an oilhead, not a journo, although its a journo-type question. Is this a one-off?

Pinkman

[G-CPTN]

Whilst I can appreciate that there are numerous 'parallel' tracks between check-in and aircraft (and there will be 'return' routes for inbound baggage) highlighting the fact that there are eleven miles of conveyor seems to accentuate the fact (just maybe) the system is too complex.
According to the Sky video the bag took forty minutes to traverse the distance from desk to aircraft container. Of course there could be some delay inbuilt for early check-ins, but is this the reason why check-in closes so long before departure because baggage transit takes so long?

I've had myself accepted (long time ago) onto a flight which had already boarded, and really didn't expect my hold baggage to make it, but when I reached the aircraft steps my luggage was being removed from a truck and being stowed into the hold (it had probably travelled in a straighter line than me however).


Oh? and what function do the 'baggage handlers' have other than to unload the conveyors into aircraft containers (and vice versa)?
Doesn't the system automatically direct bags after reading the radio tags?
What we need is an Eagle (comic) exploded view and description of how the system works (or should work).

[Hand Solo]

Maintenance, reliability, training and sefety reporting succeed in spite of the managers, not because of them. It is only in the area of human resource management that the workforce are unable to influence the management, which is why everything goes T.U. so regularly.

[L337]

Stoat your post tells me more about you than it does about BA.

So called mates of mine,having obtained their shiny 4 silver bars,used to say that apart from the "Checks",they never had a conversation with their F/O,nor even could remember his name!!!!I believe this still exists.

Total complete and utter rubbish.

[rubik101]

This on MSN News.

"The airport does look beautiful but it looks at bit like Asda when they are in the middle of restocking."

A spokeswoman for BAA said it was "looking into" the complaints about the phones and lifts but claimed: "Everything is running quite smoothly. Everything is going absolutely to plan."

A BA spokeswoman said earlier: "We are hoping things are going to steadily recover. We are looking at just small delays of around 30 or 40 minutes to a handful of flights. Things are going according to plan."

Good to see its all running smoothly and going to plan, both from BAA and BAs point of view.

So no worries there then!

it's a disgrace and beyond a joke; the rest of the world must be amazed at the sheer incompetence.

Bonus's all round for BAA, BA and senior contractors management I suppose?

[Storminnorm]

My son got 4 "shiny new bars" with BA many years ago.
Amazingly he still speaks to me and his mum!:ok:
Aren't we the lucky ones Stoat?
Very well put L337.

Rubik101

It should be "Bonuses," not "Bonus's."
Well deserved, I'm sure you agree ?

[FAStoat]

You must have short memories.Only a few years ago in the Dunadry Hotel,2 poor F/Os were bemoaning the fact that their Captain would not hold a conversation with them,but only with the Girls!!When the transport arrived,my crew offered me the seat the BA Captain usually had,much to the disgust of the BA Cabin Crew.Suffice it to say the BA Captain arrived at the enth minute,and complained bitterly that I had taken his seat.First come ,first served said my team.Much further back,you only have to remember" PI".Simon T was a mate of mine then,and like everybody else he died!!!!!!

[luoto]

Is there a good technical reason why x% of flights couldn't have been transferred to T5 in week 1, followed by x% in week 2 etc? I admit I am not a ground ops person but if you have (made up figures) 30 tugs for 50 flights per hour why not move 10 of them, handle circa 16 flights (and just focus on certain routes) and move over a third of the staff ?

[Hand Solo]

FAStoat - I presume you are aware that nobody who works for BA has even the faintest idea what you are talking about?

[apaddyinuk]

Me thinks Fastoat is hitting the gin a little cos he seems to be mumbling some total and utter rubbish in my opinion because lets face it, no cabin crew would be seen dead being chatted up by a BA captain!! :}
But in all seriousness, in my career with BA I have only come across a handful of miserable and unsociable people (either side of the flightdeck) and its all an individual thing. Most of the BA lot are total professionals both onboard and downroute and make very good companions when away from home.


Luoto, I am of the same thinking as you I think. I do not understand why they did not do it in a more stepped process. I feel they would have been better switching all 747 flights over initially as it is easier (or at least you have more time) to turn around a longhaul service and it is at a less hectic pace than shorthaul so it would have given a more seemless switch. Then when all the longhauls are over they should have started on the shorthauls. Just my opinion. But then BA and "sensible" rarely go together in the same sentence!

[HALOjumper]

On Thursday/Friday night/morning, I flew from Lagos on BA 74. The flight was some 5 hours late; the reason [sic], a BA "oil shortage". On boarding the aircraft, the skipper admitted the reason was due to a disturbance prior to take off, on board the outbound flight. Get your act together BA.

Any press reading, for a fee will tell all...

[Hand Solo]

I'm sure the press are just dying to hear your story, so I'll gazunder you by telling them they had to offload over a hundred disruptive passengers which caused the delay. So sorry, no T5 angle there either as LOS operates from T4.

[sinsin]

Sure, by all means blame Willy Walsh, but where was his "army" of managers ?
Very disapointing that all did not work harder to make the opening a success.
I note that the recent opening of T3 at Changi was flawless.
The Singaporeans make the UK look like an African country.
Where is the pride of a once great nation gone ?

[BAengineering]

most of it has emigrated longtime ago

[lexoncd]

In light of this latest fiasco the sooner " London Airways" gets its act together the better.

Quickly off the top of my head.

Gate gourmet fiasco
Check in staff and the cross
Selling off the regions to flybe
The multi coloured tailfins
Price fixing both passenger and freight
BA dirty tricks against Branson

For those of us "up North" theres proof that customers are thinking of any alternative of travelling other than BA.

[green granite]

BA have admitted that there are 15,000 pieces of luggage piled up in T5 some sources say it's nearer to 20,000.

[Airways B]

BBC reporting Fifteen, possibly Twenty Thousand bags are stranded at Heathrow!

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/7320771.stm

[BAengineering]

As a result of the disruption to flights from Terminal 5, some customers' bags will unfortunately be delayed.
We are working hard to process delayed bags and reunite them with customers as quickly as possible.
If your bag has been delayed, you can register your details and track your luggage here (http://www.britishairways.com/travel/baggen).
The baggage tracing system on ba.com will be updated as we process bags and arrange delivery to you. If there is no new information available, it is because we are still processing your bag. We will provide the latest information as quickly as possible.
Due to the disruption to the baggage system in Terminal 5 on Thursday (March 27) it may take us several days to process luggage as we have to process each bag manually.
We understand how frustrating this is. We are very sorry for the inconvenience this has caused.
The move to Terminal 5 is one of the biggest and most complex airport moves ever undertaken. We are working hard, together with airport operator BAA, to resolve the issues as quickly as possible.


Yeah by a complete bunch of amateurs........ and who moved the airport? it was the opening if a new terminal, not an airport move.....:mad:!

[bermudatriangle]

press cameras banned from T5 and rumoured to be in excess of 20000 items of mishandled baggage stacking up in all LHR terminals,this crisis is lurching towards an utter disaster. if BA and BAA fail to get a grip within the next 24 hours,the whole LHR operation could be compromised.this is surely the most disastrous operational situation BA has ever faced and i do not believe that they are doing enough to prevent a total meltdown.operationally the options are severely limited due to all the excessive security measures in place involving passenger and baggage screening.trying to implement emergency backup procedures is virtually impossible.the only option may be to suspend all T5 operations and return to T1 until the operational integrity of the terminal can be guaranteed.there is obviously no chance of the T4 longhaul operations moving into T5 in 4 weeks time as the baggage volumes will dwarf the current levels which are proving impossible to handle.i expect some very tough and embarassing operational decisions will have to be made very shortly....what a dreadful,shambolic situation.

[Hand Solo]

Far be it from me to defend BA but:

Quickly off the top of my head.

Gate gourmet fiasco

Hardly BA's fault if a supplier goes on strike and then the TGWU organise an illegal walk out (for which the ringleaders were sacked)

Check in staff and the cross

Or more precisely one religious fundamentalist deliberately flouting the rules to make a point. The Industrial Tribunal came down on the side of BA once the hubris had died down.

Selling off the regions to flybe

They weren't making any money.

The multi coloured tailfins

Yep, that was an ostrich up

Price fixing both passenger and freight

You can't fix prices in isolation. Where's Virgins bad press?

BA dirty tricks against Branson

Errrrrr, how many years ago?

[old,not bold]

Even more quickly, from the hole in my tail,

Gate gourmet fiasco
Customers get the suppliers they deserve..the whole Gate Gourmet affair was rooted in disastrous decisions made by BA bean-counters

Check in staff and the cross
That sort of incident does not happen in well managed companies, which see it coming...

Selling off the regions to flybe
They weren't making any money due to BA management.

The multi coloured tailfins
Yep, that was an ostrich up

Price fixing both passenger and freight
You can't fix prices in isolation. No you can't, but that doesn't make it good management to be one half of the crooked combo.

BA dirty tricks against Branson
Errrrrr, how many years ago? Not that many.

BA's history since 1975 is one of bad decisions and poor management. The above is only a sample.

[ChristiaanJ]

... in excess of 20000 items of mishandled baggage ....Oh what a beautiful occasion for looting and pillage.

Anybody wants to take bets on what percentage of that will be reunited with their owners... unscathed... ??

[StillStanding]

I was at a conference in the Netherlands a couple of weeks ago, which finished with awards. The winner was for the installation of the T5 baggage system. As usual award = kiss of death!

[DespairingTraveller]

Anything new with the logistics of a large international airport is going to have problems that will take at least a couple weeks to work out all the kinks. I wouldn't worry too much about it.

I trust this post was meant as a joke. And even so it's in extraordinarily bad taste. There are real people being seriously messed about right now.

I'm just SLF, but in three days' time I'm due to fly BA to DME. With an onward connection the following morning to Kazakhstan. There are only two flights a week to where I'm going. I was actually excited when I found out I'd be going through T5. Fool.

What the hell do I do now? I can't risk my bag being lost or delayed, because there's no way for it to reach me if it is. So that means hand baggage only. For ten days, and with a pile of camera gear to fit in as well. But my onward flight out of Russia has a 5kg limit on hand baggage....So at best I'll have to repack in Moscow.

How could anyone possibly get T5 into such a shambles? Haven't they heard of testing and training?? Planning for contingencies?

At the moment, BA are proudly announcing that all passengers can now check in with both cabin and hold baggage, but are conspicuously silent on whether the hold baggage stands the remotest chance of getting onto the same flight as the passenger. Wow!

I am sick to the back teeth of British Airways and British airports. And what does Willy bl**dy Wonka say on the telly? "Not our finest hour", indeed. What about "It's a complete cock-up, I resign because I couldn't run a whelk stall"....? I don't care how big and complex the project was. You're running a big and complex organisation. Deal with it. B*ggered up is still b*ggered up. Weren't they expecting passengers to arrive with luggage?? What happened to simple old-fashioned ideas like a phased start-up? Oh, no, transfer everybody and everything all in one fell swoop. Chuck the chips up in the air, and who cares where they fall, it won't affect our bonuses, anyway...

There's absolutely nothing that can be done by BA or BAA to recover the situation for this passenger, because there's insufficient time to establish a track record and recover trust. So what is a unique trip for me is badly impaired already, and has the cloud of a cancellation hanging over it.

BA have now sunk so low that I am seriously considering rebooking onto a Russian airline as a more reliable option. Only a few years ago, I would never have credited that that thought could ever have entered my head. Only the cost is deterring me.

If I ever, ever in my life show even the slightest inclination to book a British Airways flight again, I'm telling my wife to have me sectioned for my own protection.

I'm sorry for those of you who work hard and competently for the company, but there is no room for a "these are only teething problems" attitude in this sort of project. No problems to passengers is the minimum acceptable performance. Anything less is a complete failure.

[Spitoon]

Just went throught this thread - well, the alternative was doing the chores....no doubt I'll pay for it later!

OK, there's little argument with the view that the project management on the part of BA and BAA was poor and that the PR from both organisations was abysmal. On the former point, it's unclear who was responsible for co-ordinating the operation and transtion into service - the only message that I really got from BA management was that the staff let them down, and, of course, BAA were nowhere to be seen. I would have expected BA to have brought in a world class project manager for this one - I'm presuming they didn't because surely they'd point the finger at him/her!

On the PR point, the big lesson that I would take from the whole debacle would be don't sing your own praises until you've something to sing about. The PR hype that has gone on around T5 is such that it would have to go perfectly in order not to be a laughing stock (or at least raise a few smiles). How much better would this appeared if, in the run up, BA had been saying 'It's a big change to our operations, we've done everything we can to make sure it goes smoothly for our customers and staff but the real test comes on O day, and we'll have plenty of staff on hand in the first few days to make sure that any problems are sorted out as quickly as possible.' (and made sure that they did all that) and then, when everything wen't well, gave themselves (i.e. management), staff a pat on the back at the same time as thanking any pax who were inconvenienced for their patience. Mind you, I don't think even that would have worked given the reality!

One last point that I notice cropped up earlier - but then seemed to sink without trace - but the ATC at Heathrow and in the London area has undergone some significant changes in the last few years. Arguably these changes were are not complex from a logistical perspective but were potentially hugely disruptive and had far more safety implications. I wasn't very close to the changes, but they seemed to go remarkably smoothly - I'm guessing this was as a result of good project planning and, for the safety aspects, proper regulation. I'm no great fan of NATS, the ATC operator, and the way that it works in many respects (as many of my posts will show) but credit where credit is due - there could have been similar headlines and UK airspace closed if the BA approach had been taken. It doesn't have to be the BA/BAA way!

[Spitoon]

The multi coloured tailfins
There must be something wrong with me. Whilst there's no doubt that the flag looks good, I rather liked some of the World designs. And the rest of the aircraft maintained the brand - something that, today, some people in BA might wish could fade away!

[Hand Solo]

I remember a couple of days when NATS computers went down leading to huge delays and massive flow restrictons in UK airspace. Their boffins didn't get it entirely right!

[chrisbl]

I have just completed a round trip to Newcastle from T5. I am not sure the difficulties I face are just T5 related because in the last 6 trips they have all fallen short of a decent service.

Yesterday we were late boarding and once everyone was on board the Captain stood at the front and tried to put together an apology. Overally 1 hour late taking but some of that was due to a weather ristriction.

He described the apology on television as inadequate and insincere. He said there was 4 containers of luggage and that some passengers would not be getting some luggage.

On arrival, in Newcastle, I received an email telling me my return flight for today had been cancelled.

Thankfully I managed to rebook to a later flight.

On arrival back at T5 we ended up on a bussing stand, but with no steps. Cannot have everything I suppose but half an hour lat ended up as 45 minutes late.

However once on the bus it was only 10 minutes before I was in my car on the way out of the car park.

Anyway, I will be giving my secretary a very simple instruction, ABBA.

Nothing to do with music, simply Anything But BA.

[ConstantFlyer]

So the BBC is now banned from Zimbabwe and Terminal 5. At least Mugabe is holding an election before he's out on his ear.

[Pinkman]

Both Willy and Bob will survive. I lived in Africa too long to think it will be any different. And as we are now apparently a Banana kingdom why should it be any different here? All we need is a bit of green in the Union Jack, a few more power failures and we're good to go.

[ChristiaanJ]

I hope a LOT of people will read DespairingTraveller's post (#497 at the moment).

THAT is the reality.
People doing a professional job...
Relying on air travel from A to B.
And finding themselves let down by a totally incompetent operation.
All pi$$ and wind.

Who is going to reimburse him for all his unplanned expenses? And the business he may have lost?

And some of his equipment, which is probably being pilfered at T5 as we speak?

[Storminnorm]

Sorry Pinkman. we can't be a banana kingdom.
Nobody knows how to peel them.:oh:

[biddedout]

Maybe the time has come. The CAA should pull BA's AOC for a while, just long enough to concentrate minds. It could be re-instated the minute the final lost bag is returned to its owner. Meanwhile, the few senior managers left might spend a little time listening to their staff in order to fix T5 ready for the return to service.


The CAA monitors the financial performance and position of most other operators, and may in certain circumstances take action to revoke an Operating Licence. Its objective in doing so is primarily to secure a better outcome for the travelling public, and revocation will in many cases not have this effect: revoking a licence will turn a potential failure into an actual failure and may lead to losses on the part of ticket holders and disruption to passengers’ travel plans. However, revocation or suspension may still achieve a benefit if it minimises the effects of an inevitable failure.....

TheCAA's policy clearly uggests that revocation is the last resort but since we have "an inevitable failure" in progress a few days without mangement being able to tinker with the trainset might just be in the best interests of the passengers.

[Hand Solo]

That'll really help the tens of thousands of people stranded until the AOC is re-issued.

[sky9]

There are named persons on the AOC to ensure that competent people are in charge. They could always look at the evidence and take a view.

[PartickThistleNil]

Christiann,

What unplanned expenses? He said he is travelling in three days time.

I wasn't aware that BA were liable to pay compensation to people that haven't even travelled!!

[HALOjumper]

I'm sure the press are just dying to hear your story, so I'll gazunder you by telling them they had to offload over a hundred disruptive passengers which caused the delay. So sorry, no T5 angle there either as LOS operates from T5.

Gazunder? You :mad:! They off loaded 130 plus, off which maybe 25 were disruptive, two arrests. No T5 angle - duuuuh - "angle" was BA managment; BA mangment lies, but the story has been sold.

BA crew going out - very professional. Despite their earlier ordeal.

[biddedout]

Just sugesting it since it would probably never occur to BA management that this could actually happen to them.
Maybe a 24 hour suspension to allow them to concentate on reuniting the 15,000 or so passengers with their bags might be in the best interests of the travelling public. A few hours listening to the T5 terminal staff and allowing them some say in how to fix things might be a good idea too.

[Gertrude the Wombat]

Gate gourmet fiasco

Hardly BA's fault if a supplier goes on strike and then the TGWU organise an illegal walk out (for which the ringleaders were sacked)

Eh?? They:

(1) contracted with a dodgy outfit in the first place

(2) didn't have a Plan B for when the dodgy outfit went titsup.

Perfectly reasonable to do business with a cheap subcontractor, but the clever trick and cunning plan is to do a risk analysis and have something in place ready for when the risk comes true. Yes that costs, but you pay for it out of the money you've saved by contracting with a cheapo outfit in the first place.

[BAengineering]

T5 Project mis - management - The BAWay

Each directorate within BA appointed their own individual from within (jobs for the boy's or in Engineering's case girls)

These individuals were then titled 'Directorate name' Manager Terminal 5

i.e. Engineering Manager Terminal 5

These individuals most without any real managerial experiance were let loose with planning training etc. If you take a look at the engineering board for BA on www.airmech.co.uk (http://www.airmech.co.uk) you can find man examples of how this training, familiarisation went. For most it involved a drive around the outside of the building in a coach....

What a joke -

[DarkStar]

Re: The baggage mountain at T5. Latest rumour is that it's become so unmanagable that it's become cheaper to 'lose' the bags and pay minimum compensation rather than re-unite pax/bags. This apparently happened last summer where bags were 'flown' to various European points for 'disposal'. :E

I'm due to operate tomorrow, I'm rather dreading it actually...:(