SFO parallel approach

[Optimus-Prime]

Is this real or has this shot been enhanced ? :eek:

http://cdn-www.airliners.net/aviation-photos/photos/6/9/5/1298596.jpg

Photos: Airbus A319-112 Aircraft Pictures | Airliners.net (http://www.airliners.net/open.file/1298596/L/)

Qantas 747-400 (VH-OEI) is seen going around, climbing past us in the A319. We were performing a parallel ("side-by") approach to Runway 28 in San Francisco (SFO) when apparently the heavy couldn't stay behind us and had to go around. It was the most spectacular thing I have ever seen from inside an airplane!

[Avman]

Although parallels are close ar SFO (I've done it and got the t-shirt) I believe they are supposed to be staggered. This photo is slightly enhanced by the zoom factor. Nice though.

[OFBSLF]

Zoom lens makes it look closer than it is.

[settogathrust]

I've been side by side several times. It's not as close as it appears. As long as you "keep them in sight".

[wiggy]

It's real, though the lens has compressed it a bit. It's a tad alarming the first time you see it and it looks and feels a bit more comfortable if you're flying the bigger beast..:}

[TopBunk]

I can believe it, having been there and landed simultaneously on 28R in a 747-400 with another (can't remember what type) landing on 28L quite a few years ago.

It happened due to us catching up the other aircraft due to differential approach speeds. It was serious cavok conditions, but I still, to this day, wonder if continuing was the correct decision:hmm:

[Pugilistic Animus]

Here the criteria for all types parallel approaches: as you see from the numbers it can seem tight---tight. I heard that the after ldg the greatest danger is taxiing to the ramp:(

SFO:
http://www.myairplane.com/databases/approach/pdfs/00375LDAPRM28R.PDF
http://www.myairplane.com/databases/approach/pdfs/00375IPRM28L_C.PDF
http://www.myairplane.com/databases/approach/pdfs/00375LDAPRM28R.PDF
http://www.myairplane.com/databases/approach/pdfs/00375LDAPRM28R_C.PDF



Simultaneous Parallel ILS Approaches
http://www.faa.gov/airports_airtraffic/air_traffic/publications/ATpubs/AIM/Chap5/F0504017.gif ILS PRM Approaches
(Simultaneous Close Parallel)
http://www.faa.gov/airports_airtraffic/air_traffic/publications/ATpubs/AIM/Chap5/F0504018.gif
ILS PRM Approaches
(Simultaneous Close Parallel)
[/B]http://www.faa.gov/airports_airtraffic/air_traffic/publications/ATpubs/AIM/Chap5/F0504018.gifg[/IMG]Parallel ILS Approaches
http://www.faa.gov/airports_airtraffic/air_traffic/publications/ATpubs/AIM/Chap5/F0504015.gif
[I]FIG 5-4-16
Staggered ILS Approaches
ILS PRM Approaches
(Simultaneous Close Parallel)
http://www.faa.gov/airports_airtraffic/air_traffic/publications/ATpubs/AIM/Chap5/F0504018.gifhttp://www.faa.gov/airports_airtraffic/air_traffic/publications/ATpubs/AIM/Chap5/F0504016.gif

[threemiles]

Applies for IMC only.
What you see is VMC and approaches are almost parallel to avoid wake turbulence.

[Fokker28]

Sure, I've flown them dead-even into SFO. Another QX CRJ and mine were side by side on the most recent. I was able to easily recognize the captain of the other plane.

[Re-Heat]

It's not as close as it appears. As long as you "keep them in sight"
Which is why some airlines (BA included) do not permit crew to accept visual approaches at San Francisco (i.e. losing the protection of the radar controller)

[Check Airman]

"Objects in the image are farther than they appear"

Great shot though

[Flap33]

An interesting topic.

I, as a BA 744 driver, go to SFO fairly often and have seen most approaches. SFO has been one of the most problematic destinations in recent years for the fleet due to ATC expecting or requesting us to perform in a similar way to a 737/CRJ. It just can't be done so high energy approaches are more frequent.

Back to the original point, I have been on a parallel approach with an EVA 744, the most incredible experience I have had during my time on 744. We touched down within a few seconds, just wish someone had got the photo!

For the record, we often accept visual approaches, I'm not aware of any restriction. We do, however, request a 10 mile final. Most approaches in US finish up being visual approaches - just the nature of the beast!

[742]

I can believe it, having been there and landed simultaneously on 28R in a 747-400 with another (can't remember what type) landing on 28L quite a few years ago.

It happened due to us catching up the other aircraft due to differential approach speeds. It was serious cavok conditions, but I still, to this day, wonder if continuing was the correct decision:hmm:


Ditto. In my case I was in a 74 near MGLW and right at bug--and passed an A320 very close in. I suspect that United had a few shocked passengers. IMO going around is really not a good option, as the wake turbulence geometry gets worse.

And for those commenting, the compression effect is small. SFO is a very tight, very flawed system. Just look at the airport diagram.

[sevenstrokeroll]

While the lens makes this a heckuva picture, SFO is really like this...really.

While in recent years the concept of side by side has gone away, stagger by approaches are in vogue.

the real danger is when two planes are being vectored to their respective VISUAL finals and go "belly up" to each other.

From one side (the south) you turn left to intercept 28 left final...going belly up to a plane from the north turning right to intercept the 28 right final. At this moment their is some danger if someone overshoots.

I've flown into SFO with three different small airlines and one very big one.

This happens to allow sequencing of departures off the "ones" (one left and right). It is all an effort to do MORE with an airport that has runways that are too close together and has too many flights.

Except for the fog, SFO usually has nice wx...

BUT really watch out when you have english as a second language foreign carriers...just be careful.

[kansasw]

FWIW from SLF, I recall coming into SFO a while back on the right runway, and the pilot announced that if we looked left we would see the sister ship right beside us approaching the left one, sho nuf. COOL!

[Hartington]

I'm not a pilot but, prior to 9/11, I had the privilege of riding the approach to SFO twice in a cockpit. On one occasion we did a parallel approach as shown in the picture.

The second occasion they were doing staggered approaches to the 28s because of the wind. The "normal" operation at SFO seems to use parallel approaches to the 28s with interlaced departures on the 1s - two aircraft land on 28 followed by departures from 1 then two arrivals on 28 etc. On this occasion the wind did not permit the use of 1 so as we landed (on 28L) there was a 727 departing 28R. In its' way this felt even more interesting than the "norm" because the space between the runways is very limited - just space for one aircraft.

If you drive down the 101 Bayshore Freeway from SFO towards San Jose you very soon come to Coyote Point. It's a park (small fee) and you can sit and watch the approaches and see the departures in the distance - it's instructive.

I was once told a story by a 747 senior FO who was operating with a new Captain (new to the rank, new to the aircraft). The FO warned the captain to slow down early as they came down from Point Reyes over the city to cross the airport at 10000 ft. Unfortunately they didn't manage to get rid of the speed early enough which led to a 360 spiral to loose the altitude - didn't make ATC happy. Remember that was 2nd hand so I can't verify it.

[n5296s]

As a PPL I've never flown *into* SFO but I often fly overhead/alongside en route back to my base at Palo Alto (the tiny scrap of a runway that the pros might spot if they look very carefully around where they line up on final). Side-by-side and staggered approaches are both pretty common, I see them all the time.

n5296s

[WindSheer]

If you're interested I suggest you all obtain (and watch) the ITVV Virgin 747 LHR-SFO Video/DVD.
A visual into RWY28L is flown with a united 757 parrallel on 28R.
ATC clearly state to 'maintain visual seperation from that A/C, and DO NOT OVERTAKE'. They fly it with TCAS set at TA only to avoid any resolutions.
The a/c touch down simutaneously, and it is a very good insite into parrallel operations - although it is obviously no big deal to the crew.
Cheers all..:ok:

[Self Loading Freight]

If you're SLF with a fairly good idea of separations, and you find yourself down the back of VS19 having done your best to impress your companion with the details of how all this flying stuff works, and she points out of the window on approach to SFO and says "Why's that so close, then?", and you've never actually flown a parallel approach before, and for a good few minutes all that happens is that the other a/c gently drifts towards you... well, you learn to keep your mouth shut.

R

[derekl]

In happier times, I too used to enliven my monthly commute to SFO by riding up front on Speedbird 287/5 into SFO (my company does stuff for Boeing and my son works for NATS so the BA folks made me welcome).

For me the fun bit of the approach was descending on the glideslope to 28L/R while aircraft on 1L and 1R were given clear take-off across our bows. Incidentally, as I recall, there is only an ILS on 28L, an ILS 28R approach being flown as an offset to 28L.

Also, parallel visual approaches were commonly flown by BA then.

SFO rapidly gets congested if the weather closes in, as only 28L can then remain open for ILS landings, as I recall. Diversions to Oakland and SJC rapidly follow.

[n5296s]

Incidentally, as I recall, there is only an ILS on 28L, an ILS 28R approach being flown as an offset to 28L.

That may have been true once, but now they each have their own ILS:

http://204.108.4.16/d-tpp/0712/00375IL28R.PDF
http://204.108.4.16/d-tpp/0712/00375I28L.PDF

There's also an ILS to 19L. There are only circling approaches to 10L/R, and nothing at all to 1L/R. It's very rare to see landings on 1L/R. I've seen it a couple of times. It must be quite exciting to fly in a 747. While I was waiting to take off recently (as a pax) the Blue Arrows came in to refuel, and their support C130 did a low pass on 28R then circled round to land on 1.

The full list of SFO approaches is here:

http://www.airnav.com/airport/KSFO (you may need to scroll down a bit).

n5296s

[747-436]

I was lucky enough to be upfront in the jumpseat on a BA 747-400 in 1997 into SFO on 28L. I don;t recall whether we were parallel with someone else but there was a lot of traffic around.

Been in the flightdeck many times in recent years with another airline but nothing has so far beaten the approach into SFO!

[memyself]

If you haven't seen the approach check it out here on You Tube

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b3YoE-marko

Of just type in 'Parallel landing at SFO' They have several good pax video's of both parallel and staggered approaches.

Did this myself month ago in a 744 with a AeroMexico 757 alongside - like someone said earlier beware the belly-up to each other scenario in the turn, and if new into SFO, the FO's tendancy to watch the parallel aircraft rather than instruments / ahead.

[shorty2rj]

Quite frankly it can suck. Outside of getting dumped like Nor CAL always leads you, last time we were told not to OVERTAKE an EMB-120. I was in a fully loaded 737-800 w/150 app speed. Even with the Brasilia going balls to the wall it was ugly, so we had to s-turn right at 900 feet. Real comforting on a two-three mile final! The controllers have got to get more realistic about sticking the props on parallels with the bigger jets. Pain in the @ss to get into, but great layover.

[Hand Solo]

Which is why some airlines (BA included) do not permit crew to accept visual approaches at San Francisco (i.e. losing the protection of the radar controller)

Eh? There's no ban on visual approaches at SFO in BA.

[Taildragger67]

Another one (http://www.airliners.net/open.file/0652327/M/) by the same photographer.

[Shanwick Shanwick]

Off to SFO on Friday. I'll take the camera, without any lenses, and try to get a shot of the real view as seen from the flight deck. It's close, but not that close!

[Da Dog]

well if there is Hand I'm in the poo, last few times, only fun left on the fleet these days..........

I thought the demand a 10 mile final in the NUBRIEF was for management only:mad::mad::mad:

[TopBunk]

Shanwick

It's close, but not that close!

I can assure you that the photo is pretty realistic. The runway separation is minimal, and I have touched down simultaneously on 28R (in a 747-400) with one on 28L.

For sure, it doesn't happen on every approach by a long way, but it does happen.

It wouldn't surprise me if the Qantas went around because the captain was handling and lost sight of the other aircraft.

ATC issuing instructions 'do not overtake...' can be unrealistic when you are in a 747 with a final approach speed of 150kts vs a turboprop at 100 or a 737 at 130.

[Shanwick Shanwick]

TopBunk

As has been pointed out earlier in the thread the photo was taken with a deceiving telephoto lens and doesn't look like that in the flesh. Not during my 100+ approaches into SFO in a 744 anyway.

Brgds
Shanwick

[Graybeard]

Here's one I took from jumpseat of PSA MD-80 some years back.

http://www.graybeardaviation.com/clr2land.jpg

[Beausoleil]

Aside...

So when they say please turn off and stow all electronic devices, does that not apply to video cameras?

As a sometimes nervous flier, camera fanatics are second on my hate list to audiophiles with earphones plugged in so they don't hear the request to turn off electronics. A recent BA flight was the only time I've ever seen a member of cabin crew sort this out.

[alaska65]

The clearance for the visual at SFO includes a restriction that you not pass the aircraft you are cleared to follow and to keep in sight. Sometimes NORCAL approach sets one up for an especially exciting experience by saying "Maintain visual separation on that aircraft, maintain 170 KIAS to the bridge, cleared for the visual approach 28L (or 28R)". So at the bridge you are fast and the airplane you are following is already slowed, and getting from Flaps 5 to Flaps 30 or 40 seems agonizingly slow while one still attempts to stay within "Stabilized approach parameters."

I too have gone around on that one. What I should have said was "Unable 170 KIAS to the bridge, cleared for the visual 28L."

[MrSoft]

On the first pic, the fore-shortening effect of the telephoto lens is being over-stated by some posters. There is a little, but not so much. Otherwise you'd be looking at a huge winglet in your face. I would estimate 2x but no more.

On the subsequent photos posted, it's different : a very long lens has obviously been used.

[TopBunk]

Shanwick

As has been pointed out earlier in the thread the photo was taken with a deceiving telephoto lens and doesn't look like that in the flesh. Not during my 100+ approaches into SFO in a 744 anyway.

What can I say - I have been there in a 744 (on the flight deck, in the RHS) and it looked remarkably like that, except that he was a medium jet (737/MD8x/A320 type), and as such was relatively smaller visually, but importantly just as close.

Maybe in your 100+ approaches (more than my 30 or so) you have been fortunate?

[Shanwick Shanwick]

Didn't manage to catch the Continental 737 yesterday for a decent shot.

[INNflight]

Quite a nice picture from above showing two ac above the rwy's already. Glad the 744 barely fits between the runways too :cool:

http://www.airliners.net/open.file/0777174/L/ (http://www.airliners.net/open.file/0777174/L/)

[sevenstrokeroll]

Beausoleil:

you indicate a problem with video camera being on during flight...and that is a fine statement.

BUT

is it possible, the person taking the pictures from a PSA JET (which merged into usair circa 1988) USED A ...forgive the phrase, FILM CAMERA?

Imagine, a chemical method of obtaining and keeping an image, not using digital technology!

What a breakthrough!

Oh yeah, its been around so long you forgot about it...and the photographer probably just scanned the PICTURE for our benefit.

wow...a non computer camera! amazing!

[stue]

Don't talk of such witchcraft!!!!!:eek:

[CityofFlight]

I'm scared Aunty Em...I'm scared! :uhoh:

[C172-Heavy]

I know this thread has gone cold, but I ran across this video today . . .

http://videoontheweb.faa.gov/aviation_industry/GA-05-2003.asx


It talks about just this sort of procedures, and I thought you all might like it . . .

[Khaosai]

Hi,

operated in there a few times on the 744, and its certainly fun for sure. First time we flew very slightly behind a 757, catching it up, and touching down at pretty much the same time. Shame i did not have the camera with me.

Been a while since i have been there but the runways look like they are approx 800 ft apart between centrelines !.

Rgds.