Pilot shirts

[Happy Wanderer]

Sensible post this (honest) - anyone know where I can get hold of some decent 100% cotton shirts, instead of the poxy cotton/poly combos that only seem to be available in shops, mail order etc?

Cheers,

HW

[skyflyer737]

I think you'll struggle to find any that are 100% cotton I'm afraid. I find the Van Heusen 'Aviator' shirts very good and far better quality than anything else on the market.

I bought most of mine in the USA when I was there and struggled to find anyone selling them in the UK, so when I needed more I mail ordered them from the US. They are a thicker material and far longer lasting than anything else I've seen.

Good luck!

[Drop The Dunlops]

Try Greenbergs in Liverpool, about 5 mins from the airport. They sell 100% cotton shirts for about six quid, and damn good quality they are too.

[Happy Wanderer]

Thanks chaps...
SF737 - I'm in San Diego hour-building as I write this, so may pop into the local pilot shop to get some VH shirts - for info the VH 'Commander' seems to have a slightly higher cotton content.
HW

[Dani]

Sorry if I touch a slightly indiscreet matter but why do all men want cotton cloths? Have you ever seen any top athlet wearing cotton cloths? Women are used to wear these new fabrics and it hasn't hurt them.

I would loooove to throw all my cottons away and get some "Polyester", if they don't feel like plastic of course. It has to be microfibre (if it's made from cotton sometimes, then called Modal), and woven correctly, like coolmax. Btw the first microfibre was silk. Some very rare cottons are spinned so finely that they have similar properties, like the "Egyptian Cotton".

I try to wear as much as possible synthetics on my body, especially underwear. They let you sweat much less and if you do, the sweat goes quickly away from your skin. Most of the widely available cotton is so much contaminated with insecticides that you could never buy it if it would be food (That's why you shouldn't eat cotton ;) )

Dani

[LowNSlow]

Dani, try applying a flame to non-cotton fabrics and see what happens. With cotton you get a chance to beat the flames out, with man made fibes (nomex excepted obviously) they will melt and eat into your skin. THe chances of ever being invloved in an aircraft fire are minimal I know but why take the chance. Escpecially as most cottons "breath" far better than man made fibres when you are sweating a cross wind landing in the summer time.

[dublinpilot]

Why do people worry about what clothes they wear in an aircraft in case it went on fire, but arren't concerned about what clothes they wear while in a car?

Is an airplane more likely to catch fire? If so why? Or is it just that we are more used to thinking about safety when it comes to aviation?

[Floppy Link]

...in a car you can stop and run away from the flames. In an aircraft you have to sit there with the flames licking your shirt :\ until you get it on the ground, then you can run away.

Unless you have a 'chute...

[Bad Robot]

......made out of Egytian Cotton of course. ;)

BR.

[dublinpilot]

How often to aircraft catch fire enroute, where the flame makes it into the cabin and injures the occupents, but the fuel tanks don't catch fire, so the crew has enough time to land and evacuate? Any other senario, I can't see the clothing you are wearing making any difference.

In a ditching situation, cotton would surely be worse, as it would hold the moisture, and ensure you lost heat quicker from evaporation.

I'm not saying cotton wouldn't be better in a fire situation, but rather that the risk is so small as to be irrelevant, and no more serious that in a car accident. In a car accident, you are much more likely to be unable to exit the vehicle, at least in an aircaft, you stand some chance of being able to make a normal landing.

dp

[Mile_Hi]

And why do they all seem to be tight around the neck and so baggy around the waste you have to tuck in about 3 yards of marterial into your trousers.

Anyone know of shirts cut for a slimmer fit?

[Dani]

LowNSlow,

you still have these old synthetic fabrics in mind, there where few cases where they were burning when exposed to flames. Most synthetics don't have these properties anymore, otherwise they would never pass the rigorous testing - well, if they come from China I don't know ;)

Newer polymers rather melt than burning. And it has to be very close to the flame. If you are so close to an open fire, you have much other problems... - try to grab a Dräger Oxycrew for example!!

I also disagree that cotton "breathes" better in hot situation. Try to wear a Nike or Asics T-shirt on a hot sommer day and exchange it with a cotton one, you feel the difference. If these synthetics are worse, why would all marathon runner wear them? And not only them.

Dani

[Windy Militant]

Sorry if I touch a slightly indiscreet matter but why do all men want cotton cloths?

In my case I'm allergic to man made fibres, I can wear them for a short while but prolonged wear brings me out in a rash.

When I was a spanner bender it was no problem off home to Wales and stock up at the farmers shop. Now I drive a desk It's costing me a fortune and it also takes ages to find pure cotton shirts especially as until very recently you had to open the pack to find out what the material was. :ugh:

I still cringe at the thought of the Nylon shirt I had at school in the blazing hot summer of 76 it was like having my neck sandpapered. :{

[airborne_artist]

You should ask survivors of ship fires about wearing man-made, melting clothing, next to the skin. Some still have the shirt on now, 25 years after the Falklands War.

The Royal Navy now only issues cotton clothing, but in the 70s it had become fixated with appearance, so had ordered polyester shirts that needed very little ironing.

Given the choice between cotton and man-made, why buy the item that you know will not perform well in a fire, whether in a plane or a car?

[Dani]

I don't know why you all emphasize the fire problem above all, since it is very very unlikely that you as a pilot would be exposed to direct fire and survive it (if there are open flames in your cockpit, I think you have a bigger problem than your shirt!!).

But, ok, I understand your fear. This anxiety can be easily resolved: Synthetic fibres are much much less prone to taking fire.

1. Fibres like Nylon, Viscose aso. only melt where they are directly held into flames. All around it, nothing happens. If you do the same thing to a cloth of cotton, everything takes fire, your whole shirt burns.

2. What do professional fire fighter wear? Correct, synthetics. I agree these are special garnment and treated accordingly, but if you go layer through layer of their working suits, you see nothing but synthetic fibres.

3. Your friends in The Royal Navy are poor guys, I agree. I would go so far that with conventional cotton clothes, they wouldn't have survived. So you can choose what to wear after such a horrific fire accident: Your synthetics for a lifetime or your last shirt...
Remember that over a certain percentage of skin burnt, you just die.

4. Self-Incineration: Natural fabrics start to burn even without exposed to fire, just when it gets hot. OK, it must be already very hot. But if there is fire in your cockpit, they certainly could. Modern synthetic fabrics don't do that. I couldn't find out the self incinderation temperature of cotton, maybe somebody could help?

All in all I don't wear Polyester because of these issues (since I said before that the danger is rather low), but because of comfort issue. Do you want to know how many people in the world are allergic against cotton, or the toxics inside the cotton? Have you ever watched how they grow cottons in the US, in Russia, in Australia, everywhere? There isn't another plant we grow that is more exposed to chemicals than cotton. They treat it against bugs, other plants, bacterias, pests, insects... - they spray it to blossom, they spray it to let go the leaves, they spray it after the harvest! Do you want to know more? Because it's a natural fibre, part of this toxics will stay inside the fibre, no washing will help. Synthetic fibres on the other hand are pure polymere fadoms, they only consist of plastic, i.e. mineral oil. Nothing goes inside, nothing goes outside. That's why they are so resistent against dirt, sweat, smell ...

Dani

[strake]

Given the choice between cotton and man-made, why buy the item that you know will not perform well in a fire, whether in a plane or a car?
I'm being beaten-up on another forum regarding safety at the moment so I might as well go the whole hog....
I guess there is a "pure" form of safety awareness which we all deal with in our day to day lives in the home etc There is then "applied" safety: don't smoke in petrol stations, wear a seat belt and so on. Then there is "application" safety:such as if you are a climber, parachutist, racing driver etc, all dangerous sports which have safety equipment that lowers some of the risk.
Private flying is difficult. In spam cans, we don't tend to wear helmets,nor do we tend to wear Nomex flying suits. To be honest, I check the fire extinguisher and have some sort of plan about what I'd do if I had a fire in the air and had to get down quickly but I probably try not to think too hard about it. The reality is that if you've got a bit of smoke at 2000ft you have a chance. If flames are licking around your hands and feet or you've gone in hard from a stall well......cloud, new harp and "Nearer my God to Thee" springs to mind.
It's a risk game and we all conciously or otherwise take it because, despite the horror stories, that odds are stacked well in our favour even though we are putting wings on a 128litre avgas tank and taking it flying. So, I don't think I'll be buying my shirts on the basis of being in a fire.
However, in private flying, it's a matter of choice.....but will you require your passengers to wear them as well?

[frostbite]

My favourites are the mixed fibre ones I have that NEVER need ironing.

[wsmempson]

Many years ago I remember being cornered as an impressionable teenager by one of my mothers then freinds (a dyed-in-the-unbleached-wool, birkinstock wearing, bearded lesbian who was one of a bunch of ladies who appeared after my parents divorce in the early 70's) who drummed into me the three ummutable rules of life:

1. Never drink red wine less than three years old.
2. Never wear un-natural fibres next to your skin.
3. Never, ever, underestimate the power of women.

My mother dropped all her dodgy "wimmin" friends after an edition of 'Spare Rib' appeared with the headline "how to make your own tampons".

I have stuck religiously to 2 out of the three life rules.:)

[airborne_artist]

3. Your friends in The Royal Navy are poor guys, I agree. I would go so far that with conventional cotton clothes, they wouldn't have survived. So you can choose what to wear after such a horrific fire accident: Your synthetics for a lifetime or your last shirt...
Remember that over a certain percentage of skin burnt, you just die.

I'm talking about the ones who survived, in this case. Their skin injuries were completely avoidable, if they had been wearing cotton.

[Runaway Gun]

Anyone heard of the recent aerobatic SU-31 crash in Virginia?

Sergei awoke in his crashed inverted Sukhoi, unable to get out.
He had to wait until the canopy began to melt before he could extract himself.

Yes, he got burnt. I don't yet know what he was wearing.

Gloves, Helmet, Nomex - not suitable for general GA flying, but it can never hurt in aerobatics and warbirds etc. Synthetics? Leave them for the nightclub.

[LowNSlow]

Dani, I appreciate the point about the risk of fire being minimal in an aircraft and I would say it is even more minimal in a car. Most modern cars have an impact resisting structure around their fuel tanks unlike aircraft where they tend to be sufficiently strong to retain fuel and not much else.

The most common cause of aircraft fires seems to be when people over prime before start and there is a fire in the intake manifold which can blow back through the air filter. These are usually non-events if you keep cranking the engine to suck the flames in. The worst that will happen is that there may be damage to the air filter. If the pilot panics and stops trying to start the engine, he/she may be sitting facing a burning engine very quickly. :eek:

From what research I've done (not particularly extensive I must admit!!) it seems that man made fibres generally tend to shink when exposed to high temperatures long before they burn which is not going to be pleasant. When they do burn they tend to form a crust which also shrinks onto whatever is underneath it. :bored:
I fly a 61 year old taldragger. The fuel tank is above my knees and the fuel lines run aunder it to a Ki-Gass primer (prone to leaking occasionally) and down to the fuel selector valve on the floor. Given the age of the system there is a possibility of a leak. Just next to the fuel tank are the mag switches which have the potential to produce a spark when activated. So the ingedients for a fire are all there if attention is not paid to the integrity of the fuel system. All in all I prefer to have cotton jeans on when flying just incase I have to beat out burning avgas on my legs with my gloved hand!! I don't wish to sound paranoid but it's just another thing to be taken into account when flying especially ancient old aeroplanes. I will get around to getting that Nomex flying suit one day but I don't think it is a must have right now item. :)

[Dani]

Synthetics? Leave them for the nightclub.

Gun, Nomex *ARE* synthetics!

As are Kevlar, Aramid, glas fibre aso.

Go have a look at all modern fire fighter proctections, they are all synthetics. Cotton is a thing of the past, forget it.

I agree that the Polyamids (Nylon, Perlon, Viscose...) you normally buy at H&M are not of the properties of the above mentioned techincal clothes, but please go away with your outdated opinion that there is something dangerous about micro fibres. It's simply not true and compared to the alternative, cotton, they have much more advantages.

Dani

[Runaway Gun]

OK, I made a mistake. Nomex is sythetic. The difference is that it will not melt onto your skin.

But you won't catch me wearing nylon or other meltable materials, after I have seen what they have done to aircrew in the past.

If you have something better than cotton at your disposal, then by all means wear it, and tell us all how easy it is to buy.

But try to avoid wearing something worse - like Nylon....
I can't believe that pilot stores sell flying jackets made of this stuff !!

[Dani]

Gun, I'm sorry that I insist on this matter. But it needs to be mentioned because it's the most common misconception about clothes.

Nylon is one of the most advanced materials you know. The problem is that it's also used in very cheap fabrics. The problem is not the material itself, it's how its transformed from a single filament to a woven fabric.

Let me go into details of this offtopic: The finer the filaments, the more material you need, more time and effort, thus it's more expensive. The same is valid for your carpet from Iran or from your grand mother woolen scarf. Cheap shirts are therefore made of thick filaments and are of a bad quality.

The same is true for cheap cotton shirts. They have big cotton filaments and are therefor lousy. Please check my post above about very fine Egyptian Cotton.

Let me itinerate that one of the finest materials are made of Nylon. They are woven from extremly fine filaments, they feel so extrem comfortable on the skin you don't want ever someting else. Ask your wife or your women pilot, they know it! ;)

And top athletes know it too. There isn't any single fabric with such a variety of application. You can use it in summer for cool clothes, in winter for warming ("fleece", "Polartec"). Most functional clothes are made of it. Your wive's bra. Your maid's cleaning tissues...

Dani

[Runaway Gun]

No problems Dani.

I'll wear cotton undergarments, and a nomex suit and I'll fly alot happier than if I was wearing Nylon.

You wear whatever you like. Just tell me how comfortable and smooth it feels when it melts onto your skin in a fire. You'll have to live with it.