Flying below a CTA - who to talk to?

[Mikehotel152]

Sorry if you all find this a daft question, but...

...if I route north from Ware VRP underneath the Luton/Stansted CTAs at about 2300ft (the CTA is from 2500ft), to whom should I be talking?

Essex Radar? :confused:

[bookworm]

I would. Sometimes they're too busy to give you anything more than a FIS, but occasionally will offer a radar service -- in that airspace I'll take all the help I can get. Another option is to squawk 0013 and just listen out on Essex Radar.

[tangovictor]

is there a list of squark codes ?

[Roffa]

tangovictor, see this part (http://www.ais.org.uk/aes/pubs/aip/pdf/enr/2010602.PDF) of the AIP.

You'll need to register if you haven't already.

[Whirlybird]

Sorry if you all find this a daft question, but...


There is no such thing as a daft question.

[dublinpilot]

I think you might be asking the wrong question, as (I'm sure you know) there is no need or requirement for you to talk to anyone in the open FIR.

I find it better to ask myself "Do I want to get somthing via the radio?"

If the answer is no, then there is no need for me to talk to anyone.

If the answer is yes, then I ask myself "what do I want?", and "who am I most likely to get that from?" The answers then to come easier when you know what you want, rather than wanting to know who you're supposed to be talking to. ;)

dp

[bookworm]

is there a list of squark codes ?

Bear in mind that there are very few that you would use without an instruction to do so from ATC. 0013 is a special one, see Yellow 228 (http://www.ais.org.uk/aes/pubs/aip/pdf/aic/4Y228.PDF).

[Chilli Monster]

And as an add-on to what dp says. If you are going to fly under without talking to anyone PLEASE make sure the transponder is set to "ALT".

[BackPacker]

There is no such thing as a daft question.

Allright then. Intrigued by the question above, I tried to find any reference to "Essex Radar" on my (current ICAO UK) map and in my UK VFR flight guide. Couldn't find any. I also looked through the UK IAP to no avail. So...

How am I (as a foreigner) supposed to know that there is something like "Essex Radar", who may provide me with a FIS or RIS, in what area. Or, in general, if I'm in a particular area, how am I supposed to know what services I could use.

Obviously my map shows the FIS with the frequencies for London Info, it shows all CTRs and tower frequencies. ATZ, airfields and AFIS/A/G frequencies are there. It also shows MATZs and their frequencies, and mentions those that offer a LARS. But strangely enough, it only shows frequencies for some CTAs and TMAs. Not for all of them, and no name of the controlling agency. Same, my flight guide contains airfield, ATZ, MATZ, LARS frequencies, but has no list of frequencies for CTAs or TMAs other than the approach frequencies for airfields.

(And I'm then assuming that Essex Radar is somehow the controlling agency for a CTA or TMA that's actually listed on my map. Is that true or does Essex cover another area?)

Furthermore, how am I supposed to determine the squawk code of a facility to be used when just listening in, other than searching through a big document listing every squawk code that may ever be used in the UK?

At least on the Jepp charts, there is a little number near each airspace designator (except ATZ and CTR), and there is a legend somewhere at the edge of the map listing the controlling agencies and their frequencies.

[bladewashout]

I fly there all the time, squawk 0013 mode C and listen in to either Luton or Stansted without announcing yourself (whichever you are closest to). If you are near the south eastern tip, it's nice to drop down to 1400 so they don't worry too much about you, but there are some towns around that you have to skirt.

It can be quite busy in that area, particularly near the southern end.

Trying to get in on a FIS can take a while, and by the time you have the service, you are often nearly beyond the point where it's useful! 0013 is a nice new way to go through.

Question for ATC: if you saw two aircraft on a converging course and one (or both) were squawking 0013, would you blind-call to make them aware?

BW

[Tall_guy_in_a_152]

Backpacker, you should find the details for Essex Radar on the VFR chart, associated with the Stansted CTR - probabably along the edge of the Class D boundary. I don't have a chart to hand to confirm.

They do not provide a service to traffic outside controlled airspace, so no reason for them to have a mention in a flight guide except for the Stansted airport pages. Nothing to stop you giving them a call if you have a specific reason.

The Squawk 0013 is an experiment, known to those who fly regularly in the area, those who frequent fora like this one and a few people who actually read the AICs. There is no obligation and 'foreigners' would not be expected to do it.

[vintage ATCO]

Question for ATC: if you saw two aircraft on a converging course and one (or both) were squawking 0013, would you blind-call to make them aware?

Personally, no. But they haven't let me near a radar in 10 years so you are probably safe. :)

[englishal]

I used to think it was good to talk, but have realised over the past few years that there is often no point or indeed no need when outside CAS.

I was flying under Bristol's airspace a few days ago and thought about calling them up for a FIS just to let them know I was there really. But listening out the lady was pretty busy and basically turning everyone away who wasn't in her airspace with a "listening watch only, keep a good look out"....so I didn't bother as I already had the altimeter.

BUT if I am flying in the SW, I'd nearly always call up Plymouth Mil for a RIS, partly because they can then advise me of danger area status (and hence I can take some short cuts) and also in case they have any fast jets flying around.

[BackPacker]

Tall Guy, the only thing listed in tiny letters near the "Stansted CTA 2000'-3500'" text on my map is 120.625. And as that is the same frequency as what's listed for the CTR as well as for EGSS itself, I would probably call them "Stansted Tower" or "Stansted Approach".

I would be very confused if they came back to me calling themselves Essex Radar, since I have no idea on what/where Essex is.

BTW I have now seen the AIC about 0013. As it's a one-year experiment, fair enough that it's hard for me as a foreigner to obtain that information.

[BackPacker]

Got that one. Came with the map. Still would made me call them Stansted Approach instead of Essex Radar.

Reminds me of my (CAA/UK) met exam. Given metform 214/215 and then asked about the weather in Surrey. Surrey, what or where is that?

[XL319]

I was under the Luton CTA yesterday. I just free called Cranfield and asked for FIS. If your in G airspace there is no requirement to call, but obviously it is good practice to do so. If you call Luton the chances of getting a response are pretty slim and they will only tell you to keep out of their airspace.

[Roffa]

BackPacker, admittedly it's not very obvious but if you check the Stansted textual entry in the AIP it gives the H24 callsign of freq 120.625 as Essex Radar (see EGSS AD 2.18 here (http://www.ais.org.uk/aes/pubs/aip/pdf/aerodromes/302SS01.PDF)).

Any other (VFR) flight guide should be taking its info from the AIP and should pick it up and give Essex Radar as the callsign for 120.625. Would make sense if it was also printed on the chart though.

[BackPacker]

Okay, thanks everybody.

Back to the original question of MH152, the correct answer would then presumably be:

"You don't need to talk to anybody, since it's class G. The designated agency for getting a FIS is London Info on 124.6, but you can also try and get a FIS or RIS from nearby units such as Luton (Luton Radar 129.550) or Stansted (Essex Radar 120.625) . In addition to this, there is currently a CAA/NATS trial where you can monitor Luton or Essex Radar without contacting them. Read AIC Yellow 228 and squawk 0013."

[Roffa]

That about covers it. London Information may also ask you to squawk, though not to provide a radar service, just for conspicuity.

[Tall_guy_in_a_152]

Can anyone explain why Essex Radar is not called Stansted Radar or Stansted Approach? Likewise Solent Radar for Southampton? Solent trips off the tongue slightly easier than Southampton I suppose.

Incidentally,
Sorry if you all find this a daft question, but...

It is a very good question. So good, that I asked it myself back in 2003!
http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=100714

[Roffa]

Essex is called Essex because it handles traffic through the airways system in to more than just Stansted. It also controls traffic in to Luton and to a lesser degree places like Cambridge.

For the main airports (Stansted and Luton) Essex is the initial approach freq, working traffic for both airports before handing it off to Stansted and Luton director/approach as appropriate.

I think it was thought having traffic going in to Luton calling Stansted might have been a bit confusing... whether to pilots or ATC I'm not sure :)

Solent I guess is similar because I think it also handles Bournemouth traffic at some point.

[SQUAWKIDENT]

I've flown a route from Bovingdon - Brookmans Park - Barkway and back twice recently.

As a relatively inexperienced PPL I asked Luton for a FIS which they happily provided. I wasn't intending on entering their (or the Stansted) CTA but I felt a bit more comfortable knowing they were keeping an eye out and advising me of nearby traffic.

If it's too busy on either Essex or Luton frequencies I just Squawk Mode C 0013 and listen out. I don't think London FIS is much use around that area and their lack of radar makes calling them pretty pointless.

Roll on London LARS:ok:

[bookworm]

Still would made me call them Stansted Approach instead of Essex Radar.

And the controller would have no problem at all if you addressed them as that on the initial call. Many of us who are regular users occasionally forget and call them "Stansted". Actually sometimes they do too. ;)

I used to think it was good to talk, but have realised over the past few years that there is often no point or indeed no need when outside CAS.

In many parts of the country that's fair enough. But the corridor between Stansted and Luton is very busy -- I've had more sightings of close-by-similar-level aircraft through there in about an hour's aggregate airborne time than in the rest of my flying in the last 3 years!

Roll on London LARS indeed.

[Roffa]

In many parts of the country that's fair enough. But the corridor between Stansted and Luton is very busy -- I've had more sightings of close-by-similar-level aircraft through there in about an hour's aggregate airborne time than in the rest of my flying in the last 3 years!
Roll on London LARS indeed.

I'm not privy to the detail but bear in mind that to the best of my knowledge it's not going to be full coverage from day one.

The Stansted/Luton gap may or may not be covered in the first phase, due mid Sept now I believe.

If chevvron pops up here he should be able to give away a bit more info.

[stickandrudderman]

Have to admit also that I'd never heard of Essex radar until I was recently advised to contact them by Thames radar!

[vintage ATCO]

Can anyone explain why Essex Radar is not called Stansted Radar or Stansted Approach?

That may in part be down to me . . . . :cool:

Back in the 90s, before Luton joined NATS and I was Manager ATC at Luton, we were told that all Luton inbounds were to work Stansted initially. I said, somewhat tongue in cheek, that I thought it inappropriate that Luton inbounds were to work our major competitor. I then heard it was going to be called Essex Radar! Well, I like the story any rate . . . . :)

[J.A.F.O.]

call them Stansted Approach instead of Essex Radar

As bookworm said, it wouldn't be a problem. I tend to call somewhere XYZ Approach if I'm actually approaching their field and XYZ Radar if I'm not but they'd know who you meant and if you tuned in and listened to the 463 airliners that would have spoken before someone took a breath for long enough for you to get a word in then you'd have got the callsign.

It can be very busy - some of the controllers don't appear to need to breathe in at all during their shift.

I think that the 0013 with Mode C is a terrific idea, well done whoever came up with that.

[javelin]

Most big CTA's have a conspicuity squawk MAN is 7366 and monitor the local freq.

So, you don't have to talk to anyone - bliss !

They don't want to talk to you ............... unless you are about to infringe :sad:

Fly, enjoy, listen, say nowt :ok:

[chevvron]

London LARS East sector frequency and transponder codes have been allocated. Area covered will not initially cover Luton/Stansted, but it's coming. Watch out for official press release & NOTAMs soon for initial runs early September.

[magpienja]

I get the idea with some aspects of atc and flight in class G with 737s ect all over the show into regionals as they do these days, that the right hand don't know what the lefts doing sometimes,

What a hotch potch,

Very confusing to a new pilot.

Nick.

[bookworm]

London LARS East sector frequency and transponder codes have been allocated. Area covered will not initially cover Luton/Stansted, but it's coming.

Pllleeeaaase encourage coverage of the BKY BPK corridor as soon as possible. The traffic density there is considerably higher than anywhere else I can think of, though I imagine BIG-OCK-Farnborough is just as bad.

[chevvron]

Don't worry it'll come! It'll take longer due to the need for extra equipment to be installed at Farnborough. I agree that traffic density in the 'north' area is as great (or even greater) as the present Farnborough area; the 'north' area will cover north of Luton and Stansted as well so it's a bit more complex to implement. Also remember the present Farnborough LARS is 30nm radius of Farnborough.

[bladewashout]

Does anyone else duck when you see a 737 going across your path, about 1-2000 feet above you, in the Luton/Stansted corridor?

At 2000 feet, twice last week I had one go over about 60 seconds ahead of me, looked to be at about 3000ft, but hard to tell. I believe the wake falls at about 500ft/min, but I wasn't going to hang about, so down to 1000 ft I went!

BW

[bookworm]

Does anyone else duck when you see a 737 going across your path, about 1-2000 feet above you, in the Luton/Stansted corridor?

Frankly no! It's the (usually light) stuff within 200 ft vertically and a few hundred yards horizontally that I could do with a bit more warning of.