Strange Habits of Your Captains

[randomair]

Thought this would run nicely alongside "Strange habits of your co-pilots".
Cause to be fair, we're not the only people who do daft things.:=
Care to comment...:ok:

[Rainboe]

No thank you. Your job (especially at the ripe age of 21) is to sit there, shut up, adapt to different techniques, and start learning the job, and not criticise the people who have to work with you, worthless that you are. You will meet many different types of people, all of whom have shown they are fit to command an airliner. A few hundred hours do not make you an ace. You have no basis yet on which to make judgements of people, so temper your derision and criticism until you know more!

[RoyHudd]

Enjoyed that Rainboe!! Not far off the mark.

But there are the odd dodgy captains around, and it is behoven of the young 'uns to keep a bloody close eye. Their issue is when to say or do something. Getting that right is also a big part of the learning curve.

Bet you didn't stay quiet all the way to your command, pal!:)

[svenny]

"Your job (especially at the ripe age of 21) is to sit there, shut up..."

interesting crm, especially if the other chap has made a mistake... :oh::suspect:

[randomair]

Couldn't of asked for a better reply....well theres one stupid thing already that a captain (i assume) has done.

"Your job (especially at the ripe age of 21) is to sit there, shut up"
"You have no basis yet on which to make judgements of people"

Dont really need to reply to that comment...but i will. Although i have youth on my side being 21 i still have 3 years commercial jet experiance with 2 jet types and 5 years total flying. I'm fully aware this is not 30 years flying experience, but it still gives me the grounding to be able to identify good/efficient ways to operate an aircraft and not such good examples.

You should appriciate that not every co-pilot flys for a large airline, where the captains that you fly with have a wealth of experience. Like yourself!
In my previous airline, if i stayed there i would be undertaking command training as we speak on a jet aircraft. So would it be my job to sit there and shut up??? And just because I would be a captain..does that mean i wouldn't do silly things?

"adapt to different techniques"

This is exactly the reason why this topic is valid. Being a co-pilot we continually have to vary the way we operate in order to fit round the captains masterplan. It is these different techniques that that we have to operate around, that we can find questionable methods....Not necessarily wrong but sometimes silly...and we can talk about them on this forum...to the benefit of everyone.

"A few hundred hours do not make you an ace"

True.....neither does 2300hours with 2100 jet...which i have.

Thought i just finish my post with an immature twist...just like yours.:}

randomair

[TopBunk]

Take a quick look at Rainboe's signature, and his final !.

What he is saying (if I interpret correctly between the lines), is, be ever alert to the operation, be prepared to speak up unequivocabley whenever and every time when you are outside your comfort zone - and sooner rather than later, so that you can reassured and/or your views properly assessed at a more leisurely time rather than late in the approach, when other factors kick in.

As a low-hours pilot, your views will be welcomed, but sometimes you will find them discounted - expect this. Unless you think you are about to die, the best time to discuss your concerns sometimes is on the ground after the flight over a beer [but not before the next flight in 30 minutes:)]. In this environment the matters can be discussed leisurely with nothing else going on and the discussion will be more fruitful.

Everyone can get a 'reputation', some good, some bad. For an FO the 'crying wolf' reputation is not a good one to have, 'cos sometimes then legitimate and valid concerns will be automatically disregarded. This is why I say speak up when you are outside your comfort zone, and not to say 'I have control' when a someone is 1/2 a dot high and 10 kts fast on the ILS to a 3500m runway! The same viewpoint is valid to a wet 1700m runway at 1 nm final (the facts at least if not the taking control ie call for a go-around).

[con-pilot]

The only thing worse than a 20,000 hour captain with 40 years of experience who is arrogant is an arrogant 2,300 hour pilot with 5 years of experience. :hmm:

[SR71]

Hey randomair,

Are you random in the air?

;)

Sorry...couldn't resist.

:ok:

[randomair]

No i'm just consistently bad. :eek:

Con Pilot, that was good, and no doubt true. Even i had to laugh.

Just having a balanced debate thats all.

randomair

[Rainboe]

Thanks- some people have seen the point! You must adapt yourself, young man, to different characters in the left hand seat, and take time to learn to work effectively with them, because one day, you are going to be in that seat and you will have to work with all sorts of weirdos in the right hand seat. Does it surprise you to learn that far more evils take place in the rhs than ever the lhs? It comes as a complete shock to learn that not all [word self-censored] are in the left seat only! You have, ass a Captain, to find a way of working effectively with whatever you are given in the rhs, be it 'difficult', incompetent, slow, ignorant, arrogant, whatever. So have patience with the guy in charge, because he's the one carrying the can and ultimately responsible. The least you can do is not belittle him! You're going to want that respect one day.

[randomair]

thanks point taken, i fully understand that.

All i was creating was a topic to sit side by side "Strange habits of your co-pilots." basically a sign that i've got too much time on my hands...

randomair

[haughtney1]

I flew with a guy once who had a habit (at 3am in the morning) of setting his Egg timer to go off. Which used to scare the living sh#t out of me..because the bloody thing sounded EXACTLY like the fire bell :uhoh:
Another "interesting" fellow used to eat his food all the way down from TOD to getting the geardown when he was PF..and still did a better job than I will ever do:8

[411A]

In over thirty five years as a heavy jet Commander, I had only one co-pilot complain to management.

The result?

This turkey was demoted to a lower fleet, as the respective heavy jet fleet manager couldn't stand him , either.
And, he stayed there for 5 more years.:E

[overstress]

I have flown with egg-timer man. My version has a little ritual where he unpacks an eggtimer and a little flipper thing, to be placed on the centre console. The eggtimer is used to check on the cabin crew ie that they contact him every 20mins. The flipper is a little private joke (only flip it over in case of emergency).
I didn't mention the baseball cap with the obscene slogan on.
On tours with this geezer I was careful to stick rigidly to SOPs and be clear to stick to the party line for the benefit of the voice track. I have a mortgage to pay.
I provided my own sandwiches on tours with our hero; such was his antagonism of the cabin crew, I was bathed in their derision and could not risk a 'special marinade' on the beef.

[Capt Claret]

F/O's quickly come to learn that almost all captains do things differently, and are oft heard to lament, "if only they'd all do it the same way".

Then, when they move to the left hand seat, if they're observant, they realise that all the F/Os do it differently too! :8

[ShyTorque]

Every day, I look across to the left hand pilot's seat - and there is no-one there.
And I sometimes talk to myself - is that a strange habit?

Sometimes I'm a rebel, too. I start the "odd" engine on an "even" day. That'll show em, hehehe. :E

[Denti]

Still remember the first day out of supervision, proud to have 150 hours 737 under my belt. Flew with an old geezer a sector to barcelona, he was flying, manually of course the whole time without any automation on. In the descent i noticed the aircraft leaving the intendet track, called it out two times, looked over to find my handflying old captain thoroughly asleep ;)

Of course i let him sleep and just flew the damn thing myself until he woke up 20 minutes later.

12 hours later after our duty we had a couple beers and talked it over, end result was i never learned as much as from that chap, especially in regards to flying without all that automatic stuff.

Nowadays i enjoy all the different ways of doing the right thing, the small techniques and all i can learn from it, be it a good or a bad example. The only times im really scared is when i have to fly as a safety on the jump seat with new hires. And every time i have to ask myself: was i really that bad myself back then?

[dustyprops]

Hey you know what, it really is a shame to see people bashing each other over what seat they sit in, or what experience they have or haven't had. Makes me think that the "bad old days" unfortunately haven't quite disappeared for a few people. In my own experience (sitting in both seats) i tend to find that those who are particularly overbearing or those who are arogant in any way, tend to use this as some kind of veil to hide the fact that they lack some confidence and/or ability when it comes to doing the job. Thankfully these people are in an ever decreasing minority, and most of the people i get to fly with are an excellent bunch. Lets face it, flying is a job, the sooner people realise this, leave there ego's at home, and just try to enjoy a good day out, the better. The whole operation runs a lot smoother and safer that way.

[Bob Lenahan]

From personal experience I remember when a Captain: had to make a go-around on short final because he was high and hot (VMC); wouldn't call "Gear Down" although I'd repeated numerous times "Standing by Gear"; I took immediate control of the a/c because it was apparent (to me) that he was going to land on top of a building approaching MDW (3:00 in the morning)- "apparent" as neither one of us ever confirmed the incident; and he got lost on climb out resulting in non-happy responses from ATC.
There we go, 4 things that I recall. Could have been some others.
From personal experience I remember when a co-pilot: well, I could write a book on this one.
Oh yeh, I remember on occassion a stewardess, oppps, sorry, flight attendant, on occassion would say, "My job's just as important as yours."

[Bullethead]

I flew with a captain once that didn't have any strange habits! :8

I thought that was strange! :E

BH

[DFC]

Hay Rainboe,

Some people sit in the left seat for years wondering how on earth they ended up with such idiots on their right. When they reach the age where they must return to the right seat, they look left and see why.

Regards,

DFC

[kiwi chick]

This little girl has just about been bowled over by all the testosterone (or Rainboe, should that be Testosterone? ;)) in this thread! I think I may be growing testicles as we speak.

Some people sit in the left seat for years wondering how on earth they ended up with such idiots on their right. When they reach the age where they must return to the right seat, they look left and see why.

Good call DFC.

Every day, I look across to the left hand pilot's seat - and there is no-one there. And I sometimes talk to myself - is that a strange habit?

Same here Shy Torque and I'm beginning to think it might be for the best :ok:

Please, PLEASE assure me that this, er, "Person of High Status" is the exception rather then the rule.

Kiwi Chick

[Rainboe]

Well, some would say (not I!) that you girlies have broken into a man's world, so I suppose you had better be prepared for the consequences!

Have you noticed in the morning your face is growing bristles, and maybe a shave might be a good idea? I am appalled when I see a crusty old Capitano (like myself) and a young, attractive lady copilot walking along, and the Captain is carrying the copilot's briefcase! In fact I am downright aghast. If you ladies are breaking into a man's world, and have the ability to do so, why on Earth would you need your briefcase carried for you? See? You can carry your own briefcase, and you can do it better than any man, right?Unless of course all that shaving gear was rather heavy.

So rather than any weird thoughts when the Captain is looked at by the copilot, I would rather when the copilot looked at me, he (in a non-gender manner) was thinking "what have I forgotten, should I get some weather, and the Boss has forgotten this......how can I gently remind him so it appears it was me that forgot?" Trouble with copilots these days is there is no finesse or gentle discretion anymore (not like I had).

[john_tullamarine]

Why has all this stuff to be discussed in the "Tech Log" ?

Obviously it doesn't have to be .. however, so long as it is reasonably polite, pertinent .. and occasionally touches on technical matters, it is a useful subject and might just as well be discussed here as elsewhere ...

[wobble2plank]

I too have sat in the right hand seat for many a year, glanced across at the LHS to see either nobody there or a young fella me lad who wanted my job :* I operated in extreme weathers, in and out of tight sites etc...

Then, after many, many years of beating the air into submission I fancied the easy life that is piloting an airliner around. Rocket science it aint.

So now I find myself, in the words of the Toxic Rainboe, having no experience, nothing to add to the conversation and no skills to bring to the party. Ummm maybe not. I realise that he/she in the LHS that carries the can and signs on the dotted line but as long as my ass is in that aeroplane I will make sure that my views and my experience are taken into account. I do that with humour, forethought, suggestion and assertiveness when required.

Not all co-pilots are 21 and some have a whole lot more command hours than the guy/gal in the other seat, alot of the time in aircraft operated within far more extreme environments. Life circumstances and the need for a change of scene puts many people there. I like it and I get on well with just about everybody I fly with.

Always keep an open mind, the cross cockpit gradient has been known to go the other way before.

:E

W2P

[Rainboe]

What 'vitriol' are some of you talking about? It's not me that wrote:
Some people sit in the left seat for years wondering how on earth they ended up with such idiots on their right.
I don't happen to have that attitude, and I don't talk like that! I was rhs for nearly 19 years before my turn came up, and I do make a proper working atmosphere with no overtones, unlike some, in both seats, I have flown with! Any vitriol in this thread was reserved for one taking cheap scoring points for a minor typographical error. But this thread damages working relationships encouraging copilots to drag up awful or embarrassing stories. Unless there is respect on the FD for the Captain, whatever the rhs thinks, you do not have a safe environment, and 500mph is no time to start discussing it.

This illustrates what I mean:
I realise that he/she in the LHS that carries the can and signs on the dotted line but as long as my ass is in that aeroplane I will make sure that my views and my experience are taken into account.- can this mean "I'm taking away some of that authority, but I don't have to sign on the dotted line!"?
Views by all means 'taken into account', but not overriding- as long as we remember there is ONE boss. A crew is not a 'partnership'. Sometimes I think CRM dangles almost over the edge of a proper safe operation by almost encouraging any blockheadedness and obstructionism to be forcibly 'taken into account'!

[wobble2plank]

Rainboe,

We all make mistakes, I have made some as 'Captain' and have had them pointed out by my colleague before they became a safety risk. Thanks were in order and a debrief and review of my own performance. Not a problem in any way, just a good way of improving my own performance.

If you think you are a 'flying god' due to passing some airlines command course then good luck. They train/convert Captains based on commercial need, not necessarily skill/personality/capability or in your case lack of.

We are all now commercial entities, nothing more nothing less. When you hit the minimum requirements then they will feed you through the command minching machine and out you pop, as Rainboe, an all knowing, dismissive, bitter entity.

Cheers

W2P

[stator vane]

i thought as captains, we were to lead a bit.

if he didn't ask for the gear, i would give it.

and if he/she were too high and fast, i would have slowed him/her down early enough to get it down the first time.

hell, i carry cabin crew's bags when i like.

[john_tullamarine]

Folks,

While the thread stays half reasonable .. it stays .. if not ... it gets locked and disappears into the depths of history ... please keep the chest beating for R&N and like appropriate forum vehicles ...

regards,

John

[stator vane]

if my post was viewed as chest beating--

excuse me----

[john_tullamarine]

stator vane ... had your post so qualified it would no longer be visible .. ergo, it is a fine post ... apologies if I offended.

[Nubboy]

Enuff
now I've got to put my 2 penn'orth in. (Not a typo, I'm old enough to remember proper money).
The most bizarre behaviour I've ever seen from the LHS when, after fortunes plunged following yet another aviation damaging event generated from the sand pit, I was returned, temporarily, to the RHS and being Mr Chameleon again, whilst other, older longer serving colleagues stayed in situ.:ugh:
One guy had so much personal baggage he lost the plot completely and I had to take over command, from the RHS. He later took extended leave to get himself back together. Another wanted to complete an ILS with full fly down and fly right indications, in IMC. He needed two calls to Go Around and only just beat me to the TOGA triggers. By then I'd given up talking for a bit and wanted some positive action. Yet another refused to include me in any form of decision making whatsoever. That was a fun day out. Another took control at 50 feet on landing onto one of those mega large runways they have in Germany as the wind had gone outside of "First Officers Limits".:mad::ok:
In contrast, the newbies in the RHS are well trained, good fun and willing to learn. They pose far fewer surprises than us old codgers and most of their problems, being based on lack of experience, normally reasonably predictable.....
Enjoy, as they say.:ok:

[Rainboe]

Here it comes- exactly what I feared- a raft of stories about how handsome, debonair, ace, steely jawed copilots saved the death megajet from instant destruction because the 'old codger had a temporary self lobotomy'.

May I remind people this is an open forum, not a private place for aviators to swap secret stories, few of which bear any truth. Maybe many feel washing dirty linen in public is an acceptable thing to do, but by trotting out these fables and tales, it is demeaning to the Captains authority of airliners and inevitably not good for the confidence of the travelling public- hearing these tales is quite frankly abhorrent, especially when the other party is not here to answer his side of the story.

Why not just let it go? There are enough non-aviation people here who spend inordinate amounts of time here whose only interest seems to be to demean the profession and the industry. Before we know it, journos will have scoops of the latest 'aviation outrage! Incompetence!' Let's stop putting ammunition in their hands from these one sided 'disaster' stories please! They're garbage.

[parabellum]

Well said Rainboe.

Nubboy Cant believe you posted all that stuff:=

Never taken control from anyone, no one ever took control from me and the only cases I've heard of up until now are genuine incapacitation, which are rare.

[400Rulz]

So you're a captain. You are responsible for the safe and efficient conduct of the flight. But that doesn't make you god, and it doesn't mean you are going to be automatically respected. That may have been the case 40 years ago (and yes, I was around then), but it is not now. Since the introduction of CRM, the number of crew related incidents has declined dramatically, especially when one takes into account the increase in aviation traffic over the years. F/O's are no longer afraid (at least in my airline) to speak up, as our system is completely transparent. There is a "no blame, no shame" culture now, and it has resulted in a much safer and efficient environment.
I have had the CRL experience (centre, right, left). I have seen as many stuff-ups by RHSeaters as LHSeaters. We are human=fallible. The older we get, the slower we get (but hopefully wiser), and chances are that some quick witted chap in the RHS is going to pick up an error before we do. I would rather have him say something before it becomes an issue, than to allow the holes in the cheese to line up.
One of the great levellers in the system has been the company's insistence on adherance to SOP's. There is no longer the latitude afforded us once-upon-a-time. We can no longer say "I have always done it this way, so I'll continue to...". As a S/O I used to hear that more often than not, but all those old duffers have since retired, and aviation is all the more safe for their departure.
And that leaves one variable - personality. If you always operate according to SOP's but have an arrogant attitude, guys will say "He's safe, but an ar&ehole to fly with" or "one more day away with him and I'd have killed him". Respect is no longer demanded - it is earned. Treat your RHSeaters with respect and you'll get it back. The same applies to F/O's. It is a two way street.
:}

[MelbPilot85]

400Rulz and Nubboy very well said, you two are the sort of captains we respect he most. Respect is to be earned.
parabellum (will I get introuble for no capital P even though you spelt it that way?)and especially Rainboe. Hope I never have to fly with either of you. I doubt any of the unfortunate (though probably laughing- I mean now as they read this post) F/Os who read this post say what they really think of you as you may well intimidate "respect" (and I use the term loosely). Grow up both of you. Rainboe, you started this thread down the path it has taken, all that was required was a sane response.
Mods, do what you will to this post. They deserved it, though, it is only my humble opinion, and nobody has ever been shot for that(maybe in their world).

[Rainboe]

well how interesting! The clue is in the 'Melbpilot...' bit. It is undoubtedly true what they say about chips- you sound very well 'balanced'! But leaving aside the personal abuse (which is genuinly funny), we are mutually concerned we don't ever fly with each other- your arrogance will be larger than you! Just stay down in the antipodes pal, and don't bring your bitterness up here.
Your post:
Unfortunately when some people get into a position with just a little power they turn into absolute w@nkers.
Yup-little power in the right hand seat OK.

teeepee, you obviously haven't got a clue. Jetstar Asia have pilots from many countries, even direct entry captains. Now what do you think would happen if all the expat pilots got up and went home? How many airlines in the region would have trouble crewing aircraft?

It would seem to me (and this is just a guess), that perhaps you were knocked back and are a little bitter.....

It becomes clear where your chip stems from. The desperation cries out loud and clear!

[hetfield]

In the beginning of the thread I raised the question if this forum would be the best place for it. A pprune moderator answered:

so long as it is reasonably polite.....

In the meanwhile I have the impression, that this is not the case.

[Rainboe]

If everyone talks like this chap in the Dannunda and Godzone forum, I can see why it was closed for a while. Expletives flying around like that- don't people realise once you start swearing at people, you have lost your point altogether?

[john_tullamarine]

Be assured that the thread is being watched closely .. with the odd deletion of naughty words and such like here and there it is just managing to stay decent.

Why not, though, avoid the invective (which doesn't reflect well on the person concerned) and discuss the tech/CRM implications of non-SOP and other idiosyncratic behaviours ? .. which is where I had hoped the thread would tread ..

For information, we go to considerable lengths to avoid locking threads unless they get altogether too silly or go right off the rails of decent discussion ... there are other places which welcome that sort of thing .. we are more interested in facilitating the discussion bits relating to tech matters ..

.. and, for any who might think that I can be offended and caused to flare up in retaliation to perception .. rest assured that I have the most enormously thick skin ... it is just a matter that the totem pole folk have dictated certain standards and we just set about trying to balance facilitation against the maintenance of prescribed matters ..

Robust argument, even if a tad heated, is fine ... we just endeavour to keep it reasonably polite and decent for a G-rated audience ..

[parabellum]

Interesting that you should consider yourself qualified to issue judgment on me MelbPilot85, but your illiterate post actually reveals far more about yourself than myself.
One of the very valid points Rainboe was making in his post, (#42), yesterday, which you seem to have missed completely, was that there are a lot of pseudo make-believe pilots on PPRuNe now, (yourself perhaps?) who will grab any scaremongering story, rush off with it, embellish it, repeat it and eventually bring scorn and derision on our profession. Back in the days of cockpit visits, (well before your time, I suspect), one would frequently have to debunk a passengers version of a publicised event which had obviously been exaggerated out of all proportion.

The good news for me MelbPilot is that I shall never have to fly with you , you are much too junior! Thankfully the hundreds, if not thousands, of F/Os I have flown with have not been troubled by the experience;)

Now, stop wasting the Moderators time and run off and play with your Flight Sim, you naughty little tosspot you! Next you'll be telling us how many hours you've got!

[400Rulz]

I believe this forum is called "Tech Log". If you want to mudsling, why not start up the same thread in "Jet Blast"? I am constantly amazed at the holier-than-thou attitude of some of the so-called "professionals" who have posted on this thread. Everybody is entitled to their point of view, but if you are mature AND professional, you should be able to put forward your argument without resorting to personal insults. This applies to Captains and First Officers alike.
I am not a high-time skipper (yet), but I have spent 13 years as a F/O. And as such, have heard many not-so-good things said about many operators (both seats). Interestingly enough, none of the people commented about ever thought that their crew thought badly about them. Just the opposite in most cases! I think it is human nature that we like to think we are admired and respected, to the extent that we sometimes block the negative. I recall being asked years ago "why do the crew never come out with us?". I couldn't truthfully tell the person concerned as I still had 3 more sectors with him, and figured that maybe it was me :}. Turns out virtually everybody felt the same about him. Yes, I was an F/O at the time, but this analogy applies to some F/O's as well. Human nature. Again.
Perhaps we should cut the insults and have a sensible discussion about why there is such a rift between the thinking of LHSeaters and RHSeaters? F/O's are, after all, supposed to be trainee commanders, and Captains once used to be F/O's. When we become commanders, just when is the god-complex bestowed? Is every F/O waiting with a pen to cross your name off the seniority list? :bored:
One of the things about the internet is that it is largely anonymous. I wonder if you would say some of the things said in this thread to the face of the person concerned? Personally, I doubt it. Unless you are one of the god characters..............:=

[Luke SkyToddler]

Man I'm glad I've just bought a wide screen laptop, gives me a better perspective on some of the massive egos being stroked on this thread. I guess some people go through life loudly DEMANDING their respect by virtue of their position, most others just quietly and humbly go about EARNING that respect every day.

To me it seems that being a captain brings out the best and the worst in people, the best in about 98% of people and the worst in the rest. Before all you old timers start burning out the batteries in your pacemakers, I don't think anyone here seriously is questioning the fact that a captain who is

(1) highly experienced, WHO IS ALSO
(2) properly socially adjusted
(3) conscientious with SOPs and
(4) approachable with all crew members

that kind of captain is indeed at the top of the aviation tree, and yes Rainboe you are completely right in your assertion that FO's will do well to role model on that kind of individual and learn from them.

I've just recently stepped from a spell of several years in the LHS with a regional and I'm now RHS on a medium jet. Woop de doo. Am I somehow less of a pilot than I was before? I have absolutely no qualms in admitting, looking back on my time with my previous company, that the standard of piloting in many many cases was higher from the guy in the RHS. Partly caused by the fact that so many of the good young pilots left and went to bigger things before they got command, but the main problem was several highly experienced long term captains who can be politely described as 'accidents waiting to happen'. Total non-adherence to SOPS, minima busting, lack of situational awareness, non briefing of approaches whatsoever even with inexperienced FO's, utter utter laziness with regard to basic aviation discipline such as tuning and identing navaids etc, the list goes on and on. Basically people who think the rules no longer apply to them because they've been flying the same old simple old aircraft on the same old route for 30 years. Admittedly they tend to be found more amongst the smaller and turboprop operators but they're out there, make no mistake.

I do wonder 411A, with regard to your cooler-than-thou assertion that the one guy who complained about you got demoted and spent 5 more years in the RHS - you do appear to be under the impression that that incident somehow proves something about the infallibility of your own judgment or captains in general, perhaps you'd care to elaborate? I can certainly relate a story from when I was an FO, there was a recently hired DE captain who'd scared the living bejeezus out of several of us in the short time he'd been there, a quiet unofficial word was had with another skipper whom the lads trusted and respected, and he took the matter higher - the 'turkey' was flown with unannounced by a standards captain who was so horrified by what he saw that he went to management and threatened to resign on the spot if that same 'turkey' of a captain was ever allowed to set foot in a company aircraft again either in the left or right seat. The guy was in fact sacked the next day and he's still barred from the premises as far I know.

Now Rainboe I'm all in favour of "adapting to different techniques" but ultimately I'd rather that we all had the same techniques, and that I learn my techniques from a TRAINING captain who has formally demonstrated their skill in passing on knowledge in a company approved manner, (and tends to be a lot more humble about how they teach it)! Most line captains make lousy trainers. There's a very fine line we have to walk sometimes with 'adapting to different techniques' of our fellow pilots, I'm sure you don't mean to say that FOs should have to sit there and tacitly endorse the behaviour patterns of someone who's rude, lazy or who likes to creatively interpret the SOPs.

If there's one thing I have learned in my time about how to deal with prickly characters and prima donna captains, it's to stay on the edge of my seat because invariably if the flight is going to turn to rats it's when someone with a big "I'm the Captain" ego trip is on board.

[400Rulz]

:D:D:D:D
Well said, LST

[speedrestriction]

"how can I gently remind him so it appears it was me that forgot?" Trouble with copilots these days is there is no finesse or gentle discretion anymore "

Rainboe, I'm a bit surprised at this post. I don't see it as my job to pretend for the captain's sake that he has not forgotten something. If I spot something which has been missed or something which I am not comfortable with, I air it straight away - in an open, polite, non-confrontational, co-operative manner. If I am wrong I thank the captain for clearing up the situation, if I am right it means I'm doing my job properly. The vast majority of captains I have operated with are mature enough to realise that questioning does not mean that I am doubting their judgement; they are also mature enough to not feel offended or embarassed when I point out something which they have forgotten.

Would your statement be more accurate as "Trouble with some captains these days is that they expect gentle discretion"?

sr

[cjam]

"I don't see it as my job to pretend for the captains sake that he has not forgotten something"
In my opinion that statement exposes a lack of understanding of human factors and a definate lack of finesse. You don't have to pretend he hasn't forgotten, but if you give him a chance to realise and remedy his mistakes before pointing them out the whole flight deck environment will be better, communication will be better and therefor ethe flight will be safer.
you are part of a team made up of two or three people. People are funny machines , they have personalities that interact, there is no doubt that some interact with each other better than others in producing a safe and efficient flight deck with excellent communication and S.A.
Imagine if your FMS was like that, get on well with it and it does a great job, be rude to it and it only tells you the bare minimum of what you need to know.....told you we were funny machines.
So it might not be laid out in black and white that you are to do certain things but that doesn't mean you can't show a little 'finesse' in your effort to create a safer, more enjoyable flight. Who knows, people might look forward to seeing your name on their roster as well.
PS it makes no difference whether it's left or right seat either, the courtesy/ airmanship flows both ways.

[speedrestriction]

cjam
I was refering directly to Rainboe's post (#24) which suggests that an FO should pretend to have made a mistake rather than highlight an error of the captain's. Don't worry, it was not my all-encompassing view of CRM, merely a rebuttle of someone else's post.
sr

[Rainboe]

OK chaps, maybe use of the word 'technique' was incorrect. What I was trying to say was the long serving copilot learns to adapt to different 'styles' instead. Hopefully we have the 'techniques' sorted out- I did not mean the word in an operating standards type way at all. All pilots have different styles, and who's to say which is best. You should not read techniques with the meaning of non-standard operation.

The other post was a tongue in cheek reference on how he should be thinking how he can draw attention to an omission in a way that takes the blame on himself! I can't believe a little bit of humour is absent altogether from this thread, even though it contains expletive emitting Australians!

But frankly, we don't need a load of one sided stories about how stoic, heroic copilots took control away from a Captain about to kill them, any more than we need stories about copilots being prevented from killing a planeload of people! These stories rarely contain serious disaster scenarios in actuality, and the other side of the story may make some interesting reading. We all have temporary lapses- that is why there are at least 2. A temporary lapse (which every single pilot here has had) doesn't necessarily mean disaster was imminient. Sometimes, the observer can misjudge a situation just as much as the observed can be thought of to have made 'a mistake'. In reality, in 36 years professional flying, I've only had to once take control from a copilot who momentarily lost control at a difficult time. It's quite possible the same thing happened to me in my early days, I really don't recall- we're all there to learn and just try and do our best until pension time!

[wingbar]

Rainbow,
As a recently employed F/o on a jet I feel that there are definately attitudes towards the F/o's which exist in some company's and in others they do not. At my company, we are the last in the pecking order, and have zero respect.
I also feel very afraid to question a particular captain for fear of retributions.
The majority of captain's I fly with are superb operators and generally very nice chaps.
However, of late, we have had an influx of foreign direct entry captain's who are not the most popular and have an awful way of crm environment on the flightdeck.
It is as though we are not capable and stupid in the RHS.
Let me ask a question, if our ability to pilot that aircraft was in question, or our ability to follow company procedures at fault, should we really be there at all? - After all we got through sim, we got through circuits and through line trianing.
The sheer lack of involvement from some captains is shocking, we in particular, have a character who openly airs his relationship, in crew rooms and on the cabin whilst on duty, but then commands all manner of 'respect' when on the flight deck. - Just because he is has the position of captain.
Remember the captain has to be the leader and in order to have the respect from your colleagues, you need to act in an example setting manner, else don't be suprised if your not flavour of the month.
Just my little slant on things, sure many f/o's have had the same thoughts.

[Rainboe]

Wingbar- I'd say don't be too quick to make a personal judgement on someone you may not like. He has shown he, too, has the ability, skill....and experience. You don't have to like him. But you do have to ensure you bend to provide him with effective support, no matter what your personal opinions are. That's the fact of it- you are going out for a multi sector day with him, whether you like it or him, or not. He has to provide an environment for effective work to proceed (and some people have peculiar styles!), and you have to ensure it happens. It's not a popularity contest- you don't have to like him, and he doesn't have to like you, but you do have to ensure between you that an effective work environment exists. That does not mean he has to kowtow to everything you say, and at times you will feel you have been humiliated, but it's your responsibility to ensure you get the job done despite that.

Can you believe at this stage it's actually good for you to fly with bastards, bores (and some here would say people like me!) and people you don't like? You have these years to develop a style of your own that produces the goods, even under unpleasant conditions. The end result is when you are in the lhs and you fly with an extremely unpleasant so and so in the rhs (yes, they do exist!), you will have the maturity to shrug it off and still get the job done, and not have the operation come apart. I would fear for you if you only flew with nice people (like prune moderators). Always remember there are many ways to skin a cat (should you want to), and surprisingly, you don't always know which ways are best (I find it better to boil them for a minute first, then the skinning is easier).

[TyroPicard]

In the beginning was the Single Pilot, and he was called Captain. After a while Captains began to have accidents, like CFIT, and overruns, and forced landings when they got lost.
And so They invented the Co-pilot, to keep the Captain out of trouble, and help him on dark and scary nights. And Lo the accident rate has declined ever since.

[command]

Rainboe
No thank you. Your job (especially at the ripe age of 21) is to sit there, shut up, adapt to different techniques, and start learning the job, and not criticise the people who have to work with you, worthless that you are. You will meet many different types of people, all of whom have shown they are fit to command an airliner. A few hundred hours do not make you an ace. You have no basis yet on which to make judgements of people, so temper your derision and criticism until you know more!
FO's job is to sit there and shut up, what sort of captain says that?
The last time I checked, airline operations were 2 crew (minimum), You should be setting a cockpit atmosphere that asserts your authority and encourages team input, not discourages it. Your first reply implies that you have a very negative attitude for low time FO's. Sure, they have a lot to learn and a long way to go before they too become ready for command, but you need to remember that you were once in that seat too, and im sure that you would not appreciate a captain thinking that you are just there to sit down and shut up.

[wingbar]

Command, that is the best post yet sir!
Finally someone who realises what an MCC environment is about, we aren't in the 70's anymore!

:ok:

[cavortingcheetah]

:hmm:
When one was a buck first officer, some years ago, one used to carry a little notebook in which one wrote down all the little peccadilloes of each captain. This made crew resource management much easier from the right hand seat.
As a captain one used to give each first officer with whom one flew, on the first flight ever, a brief on how things should really be done and what was the approved method of operation for this captain in his cockpit to which the first officer had been invited, as an unwanted adjunct to flight operation, by the company.
Now it is much easier just to hand out a couple of roneod sheets of paper with personal SOPs listed thereon. That way there is absolutely no ambiguity at all and no basis for argument with the dictum that today's squeaky newbie flight appendix should never be allowed to touch anything below ten thousand feet.:D

[TopBunk]

Cavorting Cheetah said:couple of roneod sheets of paperNow there is a word I haven't heard used by anyone in about 30 years:eek: (and then it was by a 40 year old;))

Add the two together I would presume that you are approaching your 2nd or 3rd retirement date:) - maybe that explains somethings .....:E

[16down2togo]

Wow,
I thought the days of the MASTER and SERVANT where long since gone. Don't know which outfits you guys are flying in but I honestly feel sorry for everyone which has to quote like that.
A few really bad examples aside, I learned to fly in a 2 crew (not the hat thing) enviroment and I have to say that my first officers always where and are the bst of all life insurances!!!
Arrogance kills the the pilot

[parabellum]

I wouldn't take it too seriously 16down2togo. A lot of what has been posted here is tongue in cheek and just as much has been posted with the deliberate intention of 'winding up' those FOs who are naturally stroppy, it only takes a couple of sentences or well known phrases and the obvious few bite every time!;)

[Rainboe]

What an extraordinary set of posts! Go away for a couple of days and out this stuff comes from the woodwork!
My response to:
Cause to be fair, we're not the only people who do daft things.
was
No thank you. Your job (especially at the ripe age of 21) is to sit there, shut up, adapt to different techniques, and start learning the job, and not criticise the people who have to work with you....
because sometimes, I am convinced this CRM training has gone too far, and people are coming out of school clutching their CPLs and 250 hours or whatever, and they've been told that whatever they don't like, they must stop, whether they have any basis to make a judgement or not. Well believe it or not, they know zip all, so sometimes it's better to shut up and see the operation and learn! They think 2 pilots are a partnership- they're not, no matter how 'clever' or 'highly experienced' they think they are at 21. I've flown with quite a few new ones, and there's sometimes an arrogance there that 'I've made it, I've got the uniform, and now I'm here, so listen to what I have to say ('cos that's CRM!)'. It actually takes quite a while before they become a positive asset on the FD. So I really don't like to listen to those comments mocking the lhs, because it is making them lose respect for the boss, and when that happens you have a bad and unsafe operation.

We've had Respect is to be earned! Stuff and nonsense! You respect the Captain who has shown he has the ability to do the job long before you were even flying (or born)! I don't see many Naval Captains having 'to earn respect'. If you don't 'respect him', your Naval career goes up in smoke. Where did you guys get these ideas? It's that damn CRM again! Thank God the navy hasn't gone down this road! You 'respect' the position until you show you are up to the standard to 'earn' your own respect boys! And have the experience (and maturity) to make a judgement. And here's the difficult bit (obviously for some of you judging by your attitude), even if you don't have 'respect' for him, you bloody well hide it and make sure you are the best copilot there is, or the work relationship breaks down and people may well die. So keep your derision/disrespect/animosity so totally well hidden it's not true, because you let that out, or he catches wind of it, and you have destroyed a working relationship and spoiled the operation.

That's why I don't like threads like this, from either angle. That, and the other reason is one has the feeling that one is really talking to a flight simmer who thinks he knows it all. There are too many pretenders here these days who like wasting time.

Atishoo- what are you doing here? You are a shivering, tantrummy wimp of a nervous flyer! You have no 'respect', even as a passenger fer goodness sake. Show you have some backbone before you interject where you are positively not wanted (and have so totally no business).

[tonker]

If a captain regulary pulled up on stand and without an APU/GPU shut both engines down, thus plunging the aircraft into relative darkness how would this sit with most people? Are there any legalities(health and safety) that would affect such a procedure?

Any replies appreciated.

Regards Tonker

[On speed on profile]

Woaahhh there Rainboe! I completely agree with your comments on Newbie f/o's but no one here is mocking the LHS as far as I can tell!

As you say, Captains rightfully deserve respect for the position they are in but they can sure as hell throw that away in a heartbeat with one flippant or derogatory comment to the f/o or any other member of crew for that matter, and although you think that "Damb CRM" is a load of bollocks, it has been proven that "Damb CRM" has raised safety levels to an unprecedented level since it was introduced!

You may think that "this CRM training has gone too far" but all it has done is to increase safety levels. Massive cross cockpit gradients have been reduced and flying has got safer!

Arrogance on either side of the cockpit must be eliminated, especially in those new f/o's with 250 hours climbing onto a shiny jet (dont even get me started on how wrong I think that is), but that doesnt mean your F/O has to hide his dislike from you. He/She shouldnt have to!! If you are arrogant and hard to work with, you are comprimising CRM and ultimately the safety of the flight and you should expect to be put in your place!

At the moment, I think your integrity as a Captain is treading on thin ice mate.

[cavortingcheetah]

:hmm:

Well there's a thing now.
Here's a little link to help you out.

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/Roneo

But its usage were more an evil play on a name than anything else.

:cool:

[parabellum]

Well, I've been there when it happened:

Cause 1: sloppy FO, (me) didn't do after landing checks properly

Cause 2: As the load came on APU failed

Cause 3: APU was U/S but crew forgot and just did after landing checks anyway.

It shouldn't happen 'regularly' and after it has happened once it is the duty of both/all crew members to ensure it doesn't happen again.

Please explain what you mean by regularly Tonkar, if it was a multi sector day and you monitored this happening more than once then it is you who has failed.

[Rainboe]

Arrogance on either side of the cockpit must be eliminated, especially in those new f/o's with 250 hours climbing onto a shiny jet ... but that doesnt mean your F/O has to hide his dislike from you. He/She shouldnt have to!! If you are arrogant and hard to work with, you are comprimising CRM and ultimately the safety of the flight and you should expect to be put in your place!

At the moment, I think your integrity as a Captain is treading on thin ice mate.
I don't deny CRM has improved safety, but it's a question of to what degree you alter the slope. maybe in the past it was too steep. I think now some virtual ppl+ holders are joining an integrated crew and thinking it's a level playing field! It most certainly isn't!
but that doesnt mean your F/O has to hide his dislike from you. He/She shouldnt have to!! You bet he has to! He is going to work with a lot of people with different styles. If he once shows dislike or disdain, he won't know what hits him! He most certainly must completely hide it! This is where kids are coming out of school with no respect for authority or experience, having never really played competetive games. Do you really think a Naval Captain would take active dislike from his First Lieutenant? Or a lack of respect for his experience? It's not for him to judge! It's up to the Captain to be as arrogant as he likes- that copilot must find ways around to work effectively. But so many these days are little prima donnas who flounce off and sulk or become shrinking violets- the failure is them for not finding a way to get the work done effectively, which is their duty.

But either side losing respect for the other by largely untrue or embellished tales, like the title of this thread, does nothing for your much vaunted CRM. Don't you think it has an element of the industry washing its dirty laundry in public?

[skiesfull]

Respect comes with the rank and has to be maintained once earned.
It is easily lost!

[Rainboe]

Doesn't that work both ways? The new copilot starts off with no respect and has to earn it. The Captain has respect as he's shown he can do the job. Quite frankly, how far do you think he worries that the copilot 'does not respect him'? Not a lot. But if you're saying that if the Captain has lost respect for some reason from that copilot, well- how much does that worry the Captain? How are they going to get through the day/trip? Who has to bend to find a way to get the job done? Let's see...........I wonder who?

[TyroPicard]

Do you really think a Naval Captain would take active dislike from his First Lieutenant? Or a lack of respect for his experience? It's not for him to judge! It's up to the Captain to be as arrogant as he likes- that copilot must find ways around to work effectively.
Recently read about a certain Naval Captain in the Falklands campaign who was as arrogant as that - the cock-ups and incompetence that resulted are amazing to read.
TP

[pakeha-boy]

me.....

I provide all the beer....

I provide all the women/men....

I provide all the food....

and all the F/O has to provide is........his/her presence

life is just too short for mucking around!!!

[timzsta]

Old n bold Instructor said to me (young and foolish) "Don't ever tell a student you are a better pilot then they are. You are merely (a little) more experienced".

[BillHicksRules]

Rainboe,

"It's up to the Captain to be as arrogant as he likes- that copilot must find ways around to work effectively. But so many these days are little prima donnas who flounce off and sulk or become shrinking violets- the failure is them for not finding a way to get the work done effectively, which is their duty."

Do you actually bother to read what you post?

Are you actually saying that a Captain can act in any way he sees fit?

Are you further saying that an FO has to perform their duties no matter what the Captain does or says?

I assume that you are a Captain. If I am wrong then I hope you can see how I make that assumption.

Therefore let me say this. You are a pilot not GOD. If as a grown adult whose job is to ferry others around you show a staggering lack of social skills.

You are not omnipotent or all knowing. In fact you actually could do with realising just how little you do know. All good pilots know their limitations yet you feel you have none.

Cheers

BHR

[skiesfull]

Unfortunately, too many people feel the point of CRM skills is to share authority. It is not. The point of CRM teaching is to lessen the authority gradient, especially between older Captains and younger inexperienced crew members, so that safety is enhanced by 'juniors' feeling confident enough to speak up and voice their concerns. The law is quite clear that only one person - the aircraft Commander - has overall responsibility. Sharing the workload efficiently is one thing, but sharing authority is definitely not the purpose of CRM.
Often those who think that their CRM skills are very high, are those that require further education in inter-personal relationship.
I prefer the 'KISS' philosophy myself - 'Keep It Simple Sucker': it makes for an easier life and a safer one!

[On speed on profile]

Skiesfull, you hit the nail on the head! CRM is not about sharing authority, it is about lessening the cockpit gradient so that the Captain doesnt find himself/herself in the position where the S$%T has hit the fan and they are working as a one man band!

Rainboe, you do have some valid points with regard to the level that CRM must be applied but just listen to yourself for one second and you may realise that the self styled "Toxic" attitude that you portray only serves to hinder your job as a Captain by fostering an atmosphere that will either beat fragile f/o's into a blubbering mess, incapable of helping in any situation or even worse.... make your f/o's who are actively hiding their dislike for you, actively want to see you mess up just to put you in your place.

Both of those outcomes are ones that ultimately bring us back to the days of pre CRM and we all know what happens then!

When I question my Captains decisions, or point out deviations from SOPs, I do it in a tactful and respectful way because I need to clarify that I am right, not that the captain is wong! I am happy to hold my hand up when I am wrong, make a mistake or dont know an answer but thats part of the learning curve so I sure as hell expect the reaction/answer to be a civilised one. Some of those LHS's out there must remember that they are still on that learning curve as well, albeit further along but on that curve none the less. If you think your time has come to stop learning (in either seat), its time to retire!!!

[Rainboe]

"It's up to the Captain to be as arrogant as he likes- that copilot must find ways around to work effectively. But so many these days are little prima donnas who flounce off and sulk or become shrinking violets- the failure is them for not finding a way to get the work done effectively, which is their duty."
Do you actually bother to read what you post?
BHR- I'm a little surprised you don't seem to understand. A Captain is the boss. He can act how he pleases. BUT- being a little Hitler/excessively obnoxious, it will come to the attention of his seniors, and if it's bad enough, action will be taken. So, it's a self regulating system. But the important thing is, on the actual day, when you have to fly passengers to 4 or 5 places, it is very much up to the copilot to ensure he adapts to the Captain's style. He does not yet have the experience or (often) ability to be independant, and to show resentment or insult will create a worse environment than even if he was not there at all. The captain leads, the copilot must adapt.

Statements like this:
but that doesnt mean your F/O has to hide his dislike from you. He/She shouldnt have to!! are a walking disaster!

[On speed on profile]

but that doesnt mean your F/O has to hide his dislike from you. He/She shouldnt have to!!

Rainboe, maybe I should clarify that statement.

If your f/o has a dislike for the captain because they are a jumped up little 250 hour idiot then they are the ones who need to get sorted out by management. Having said that, if the only reason they dislike the captain is because they are put down, belittled or treated as just the "radio operator" then the company needs to look to the LHS.

I bet you wouldnt have these opinions if you were getting guys into the RHS who had some decent hours, who had scared themselves flying SP MEIR a few times and who generally had some life experience!!

[john_tullamarine]

A few thoughts ..

(a) this sort of thread is useful (provided we keep reasonably cool heads) for its ability to present a pretty wide range of observations .. the fact that some folks get a little more agitated than others merely is a reflection of the human condition

(b) it is unfortunate that some pilots possibly never have worked outside the flying game .. it's not much different anywhere .. the boss is the boss and the juniors have to toe the line to the extent necessary for the thing to work. If it doesn't work that way on the day then it doesn't work well.

(c) in some jobs (flying, surface vessels/submarines, surgery, hazardous chemicals are several that come to mind) there often is not time to schedule a committee meeting to discuss the pros and cons .. the system has to put its trust in its ability to end up with effective, functional and appropriately decisive leaders. Sure, it doesn't work all the time but we have to go with the percentages overall. In other jobs .. routine clerical work, for instance, the urgency for decision making and the consequences of bad decision making are such that perhaps those systems can tolerate a bit more PC than flying

(d) the main variation one sees (throughout the workforce) is that associated with the principle that there exists many ways for the boss to lead and command .. some better and more effective than others .. and this, too, varies according to circumstances. In my simplistic view of the world, I like to think that the main aim of CRM etc., is to grab all the best that there is out there and present it in a manner best suited to making it easier for the guys and gals to learn by the mistakes and successes of others .. there really just isn't enough time for all of us to make all the useful learning outcomes mistakes ourselves .. not to mention the cost associated with bad mistakes in modern aircraft. Where this approach becomes especially important is when the experience level goes down due to the normal longer term cyclical nature of the industry .. particularly when the new commander experience level is limited. In the military system, a very active flight by flight authorisation process seeks to take up the slack .. but this doesn't apply in the civil arena in general

Apart from the proactive approaches embodied in CRM etc .. I go with the old saying that one should observe one's colleagues, take note of what works well and what doesn't ... incorporate the former into one's own practices ... and discard the latter

The system is not perfect by any means .. but it bumbles along reasonably well most of the time ...

[On speed on profile]

Fundamentally JT, in all those industries, the most effective ones are the ones where the Leader/Manager/Captain fosters development, openess and leadership practice while all the time delegating and maintaining the professionalism and expertise that is expected of them in their particular role. The LHS of a jet is no different.

In all those industries, the outcome relies solely on the individuals ability to lead a team. Just because you are the boss, doesnt mean you can lead a team effectively!!

If the team leader needs to make an urgent or critical decision then provided the team has been kept appropriately informed and consulted, that decision is going to be easier to make and more widely recieved!!

[john_tullamarine]

.. that's pretty much what I set out to say ... you just managed to do it far tidier than I ...

[eagle21]

Unfortunately, too many people feel the point of CRM skills is to share authority. It is not

I agree. What could be shared are the leadership skills. Also as good leader the FO should display good followership skills.

I hope this makes sense.

To keep it simple. The captain has got the authority, but both pilots do have the same opportunities to make inputs that improve safety and efficiency. The FO should assist the CP as much as he can while making valuable obervations.

[lfbb]

"Captain, what do you want me to want?" and if you feel that you are going to die tell him... but if you are very, very and absolutely sure you are going to die press the red button and don't forget to say I have control!!:}

[Gary Lager]

Interesting. As a Captain I feel I have to adapt to the character and experience/skills of my FOs as much as I ever did with Captains when I was in the RHS.

Only one thing never changes, everyone is different. I don't think it matters which seat you sit in. You won't like everybody, and for extrovert, motivated technically competent pilots it is often hard to be the one not in charge, so Captains get a lot of stick.

Some of the arguments on here from those in RHS are lucid, logical and show that the authors have a real grasp of the fundamental issues of CRM and how it relates to flight safety. I bet, however, that when they are next in the LHS not every FO will have great things to say about them. Such is the sacrifice we make for all that extra money...;)

[airbus757]

Many here may or may not "respect" Rainboe, but there is 1 undeniable fact. He is clever enough to introduce just enough thread creep into this whole discussion to prevent folks from answering the original question. Perhaps his true personality has been hidden and he has used shock and awe to get some folks off topic. Well done Rainboe. I too don't like to read about others silly or stange habits as it does serve to belittle our industry.

A few exceptions aside this tread has actually provided some argument from all points of view. Perhaps we should all meet in the middle.

7

[Rainboe]

I actually thought nobody had noticed. This thread is humiliating and denigrating to the profession, and I'm surprised people were so happy to spout tales that do none of us any credit (and are one-sided anyway- who knows what the truth is?).Perhaps we should all meet in the middle. ....and I have the baseball bat, OK?

To show balance, I also intensely dislike the other thread about copilots. Just as denigrating, and I am still young enough (just) to remember when I was learning this job and making daft mistakes. I was carried through by the patience and understanding of others for years, so I can't help questioning how a 21 year old considers himself ready for a jet command! There is still a long way to go and a lot of experience to tuck away!

[Floppy Link]

Go single pilot folks, it's the way ahead!

Just taking meself off round the back of the bike sheds for a good thumping

[randomair]

well it was a barbie jet...didn't mention that...:} .

You say you cant understand how a 21 y/o considers themself ready for a command....if a 21 y/o has the nessesary hours, passes the command assessment, has a good route and aircraft knowledge and generally has a bit of common sense...why is that different from a 40 year old with the same hours? Of course the 40 y/o has naturally 'tucked more away'...but that doesn't mean the 21 y/o wouldn't be a good operator.

I'm under no illusion that everyone has alot to learn as they grow up and gain experience, but you either have an assessment process that works or it doesn't.

I shouldn't bring up the 24 y/o TRI that i know of.......should I?? :oh:

[con-pilot]

You say you cant understand how a 21 y/o considers themself ready for a command....if a 21 y/o has the nessesary hours, passes the command assessment, has a good route and aircraft knowledge and generally has a bit of common sense...why is that different from a 40 year old with the same hours? Of course the 40 y/o has naturally 'tucked more away'...but that doesn't mean the 21 y/o wouldn't be a good operator.

Okay, I can answer that question. My father, at the age of 20, was a B-17 aircraft commander in 1942. He was obviously Air Force trained. However, he was not the only young aircraft commander in the military back in those days, he was one who survied. The ratio of combat losses to operational/training losses was 1 to 10. In other words for every aircraft lost in combat, 10 were lost in non-combat. Another little know fact was that the older the pilot was when they entered training the better odds were that they would survive.

One saying my father had, that is just as true today as it was then, is that you 'cannot train experience'. If one looks at the air war in Korea it was not the young buck 20'ish year olds that had the majority of the air to air kills, no it was the older guys.

I am not saying that there are no 21 year old pilots that are "ready for command". I'm sure there are, but not in a Boeing 747-400 or any heavy jet, or mid-size jet. They need to get experience starting from the bottom of the food chain, so to speak.

Now having said that, do not compare military flying with young pilots to non-military young pilots. A whole different world that is.

In any case randomair, good luck in your career. :ok:

[dustyprops]

Wow, it's like stepping back in time reading some of what is written on the subject of command. We all know people that have commands with all different carriers who are young. In my case i know someone with a command at age 24 on B757, reason, he's been flying commercially since age 19 and knows what he's doing. In fact you could argue that a young mind is a sharper one and more able to think 'outside the box' which as we know is a very important quality in a good Capt. Experience is important no doubt, but you don't have to be old to get it!