View Full Version : Which plane to buy..
grasspirate
25th Jan 2007, 10:49
HiHi,
Calling all the aeroplane experts....Which 4 seaters would match the following criterias :
able to operate from 500 m grass strip
lift 1,000lb with full IMC/autopilot equipment
above 120kt cruise
easy to maintain/insure
engine can use 100LL or 96UL
Thanks for your help...
S-Works
25th Jan 2007, 11:10
HiHi,
Calling all the aeroplane experts....Which 4 seaters would match the following criterias :
able to operate from 500 m grass strip
lift 1,000lb with full IMC/autopilot equipment
above 120kt cruise
easy to maintain/insure
engine can use 100LL or 96UL
Thanks for your help...
My Cessna 172 XP!!!
360BakTrak
25th Jan 2007, 12:06
Cessna 177. Great aeroplane but the insurance would depend on experience, as with any aircraft.
Shunter
25th Jan 2007, 13:44
Another vote for the 177. Bought one approximately 3 months ago. It's a genuine 4 seater with loads of room inside, and it will carry 4 adults on full fuel. A standard 172 and any sub-200bhp PA28 can't do that. Plus it looks great, has set-back wings and no struts so much better viz than 152/172. VP prop, but very easy to fly.
Comes in a choice of fixed gear or retractable, although the latter are more common. Fixed will give you a good 120kt, retract upto 150kt. Oh, and they only use around 35L/hr of avgas. Performance is excellent; under 300m to get airborne, so a 500m strip is more than adequate.
Insurance was £2200 with no low-hours restrictions, although if your're loaded with hours you could probably shave £500 off that.
IO540
25th Jan 2007, 14:31
Bose, is your Cessna legal running on mogas?
Monocock
25th Jan 2007, 15:28
There are loads that perform within your requirements. The Mogas is the only issue though as far as I know.
If it were me i'd go for a Cessna 180 or 185:)
S-Works
25th Jan 2007, 15:39
Bose, is your Cessna legal running on mogas?
Yes it is according to the maint guys. I wouldn't use it due to the limitations on alt and temp etc. But I guess in a squeeze I could.
stray10level
25th Jan 2007, 19:23
IO540, do you reside in the Yorkshire Moor's by any chance?
A 4 seat Jodel (1050?) will do all that. If you slow down to 120kn it will burn very little fuel, and if you want to put skeys on it and visit some of the more challenging strips in the Alps, no problem.
Rod1
drauk
25th Jan 2007, 22:16
A 182 ticks all those boxes. My (N reg) 182 is certified for mogas, by virtue of a modification. Never tried it though.
TheGorrilla
25th Jan 2007, 22:34
Or, a Yak 18T?
Pilot DAR
25th Jan 2007, 23:13
Hello,
Cessna 177 is an excellent, roomy airplane, but much better if you aren't the person paying to fix it! If it's an RG, the landing gear is really cool, but fussy, and expensive to maintain. Though it seems to work the same way as the 172 and 182 RG, there are many differences which make it less desirable. Also consider the cost of fixing minor damage, it's not common plane, and getting old. Many airframe parts for the 177 are getting very hard to find as replacements. Insurance companies know this, and will price hull insurance accordingly. The more common the type of aircraft, the more available, and thus more economical, the replacement parts.
The 177 could be operated from 500m by a pilot with experience on type, and favourable conditions , but planning this type of operation as a new venture may be expecting too much, particularly with passengers. A STOL kit, and really good training from an instructor very familiar with the 177 and STOL kit flying would be a benefit.
A Cessna 182 would be a better choice than the 177 if this load out of this runway length is important.
172XP is a great plane, and reasonable cost to maintain, other than the TCM IO-360 engine, which can incur some expensive repairs over time.
The Cessna 180/185 would be an excellent choice for these requirements, but more pilot skill requirements, and higher insurance costs will be involved.
The Piper Cherokee 235 (Dakota) would be suitable, other than it may not leave you feeling relaxed in a 500m runway. Straight tail Arrow is also a great plane, but avoid the "T" tail versions into short runways.
You could also consider the Found FBA-2C series of aircraft, they would meet all of these requirements, with the exception Mogas, and possibly autopilot.
120kts cruise speed is going to cost you quite a bit more. Do you really want to pay half again the cost for that added 10-15 kts?
Cheers, Pilot DAR
Lucy Lastic
25th Jan 2007, 23:39
A 4 seat Jodel (1050?) will do all that. If you slow down to 120kn it will burn very little fuel, and if you want to put skeys on it and visit some of the more challenging strips in the Alps, no problem.
Rod1
Much as I love Jodels, I think that is pushing it for a 1050. I'd not go off a 500m grass strip 4 up, unless the others were as small and svelte as myself.
sir.pratt
25th Jan 2007, 23:58
http://www.pilotfriend.com/aircraft%20performance/Robin/Robin%20200i%20President.htm
and there's a nice DR400 for sale here >>> http://www.trademe.co.nz/Trade-Me-Motors/Aircraft/auction-85631731.htm
stray10level
26th Jan 2007, 00:38
130kn cruise, 5 or 6 pax, operate from a 50 meter strip! Runs on Jet A1 or whatever you want to call it at half the price of mogas, or just ordinary petrol as most people know it! Maintenance is a bit more of a grey area. But as IO540 says, a new piece of kit wont cost half as much as a decrepit old banger will, so it wont be too much if you keep it all upto date. Plus you get to up your street cred by having a chopper to play with:) Should impress the girleys!
I'm sorry, but did you mention budget? Well £150k should get you a working example i think!
Bravo73
26th Jan 2007, 08:43
Sorry to burst your bubble, stray10level, but I must correct a few of your details:
130kn cruise, 5 or 6 pax,
Not from a Jetranger, I'm afraid. With all 5 seats full and a bit of fuel, you'll be lucky to get 95kts. Now, if you meant a LONGranger, then you're looking at a cruise of 110-120kts with 5 or 6 pax.
operate from a 50 meter strip! That much? ;) Within reason, you can safely operate from your back garden.
Runs on Jet A1 or whatever you want to call it at half the price of mogas, or just ordinary petrol as most people know it! Yep, burns nice 'cheap' JetA1. Unfortunately though, it burns it at about 30USG an hour!
Maintenance is a bit more of a grey area. But as IO540 says, a new piece of kit wont cost half as much as a decrepit old banger will, so it wont be too much if you keep it all upto date. Cost of maintenance? Well, if you want to budget for it, think of a number. Then double it. Then double it again. And again. Essentially, if you are going to compare it to fixed wing maintenance costs, then just think LOTS. :(
Plus you get to up your street cred by having a chopper to play with:) Should impress the girleys! You ain't wrong there! :ok:
I'm sorry, but did you mention budget? Well £150k should get you a working example i think! Unfortunately, £150k will only get you 'a decrepit old banger' Longranger. Triple that amount for a reasonable example.
But I do like your thinking! :D:D:D:ok:
PS I thought that this was a plane...:
http://www.abbeypowertools.co.uk/webupload/APOWER/DRAPER/APOWERSMALL56628_p4.jpg
:E
Sorry, someone had to say it! I know; hat, coat, door etc...
High Wing Drifter
26th Jan 2007, 09:18
No, this is a proper plane:
http://mathworld.wolfram.com/images/eps-gif/Plane_1001.gif
tiggermoth
26th Jan 2007, 15:48
(I find an electric sander much more handy than a plane. :) )
Would a PA28-180 cut the mustard possibly?
Mark 1
26th Jan 2007, 18:56
The Jodel 1050 fails on payload and speed, nice little machine though it is. The DR250 however ticks all the boxes. Payload about 400kg, but you get away with less fuel on an O-320 burning 27-30 l/hr at 120 knots.
DR400-180 and D140 Mousquetaire from the same stable are worthy contenders too. The D140 maybe a little slower, but will lift a massive payload.
If you,ve got a workshop and some time to spare, howabout building an RV-10 and really go places?
IO540
26th Jan 2007, 20:57
Doesn't a Robin (most of them being wood) need good hangarage?
Mark 1
26th Jan 2007, 21:18
Apex will tell you that they live fine outside. This is possibly true if they are flying almost every day, but prolonged outside parking will likely cause eventual degradation of the woodwork, especially vulnerable areas like the trailing edges, stern post etc..
Hangarage wasn't raised as an issue in the original post, and even a cheapish polytunnel shelter would be sufficient adding less than £3K to the budget.
Dicky5
26th Jan 2007, 21:26
I bought an old PA28 (a 180C to be precise) last year for sub £30k and am very pleased. The "old" wing seems to lift very well, I operate from a 600m grass strip with pylons near to one end and never have an issue, even when hot; I can do 120kts all day at 30 to 33 Ltrs/ hr, and up to 135kts if I need to. I can lift 480kg, so 4 x 13 st people plus full fuel. Also much more stable than a Jodel / Robin type esp in imc bouncy stuff. Really great plane, totally reliable, can leave ourdoors with cover and parts / maintenance are good value, I think of it as a "Ford Escort" of the sky, similar to the C 172 in that respect but I think cheaper to buy.
Happy hunting!:)
A and C
26th Jan 2007, 21:31
All you have to do is keep the rain off a Robin DR400 A pollytunnel would be just fine as long as it had lots of ventilation.
At one time I had a DR400-140 on a 370M farm strip but it could not lift a full payload off the strip, 500M would have solved all the payload problems.
S-Works
27th Jan 2007, 07:45
All you have to do is keep the rain off a Robin DR400 A pollytunnel would be just fine as long as it had lots of ventilation.
At one time I had a DR400-140 on a 370M farm strip but it could not lift a full payload off the strip, 500M would have solved all the payload problems.
Which goes back to a Cessna my 172 will if its full payload of 1000lb out 370m and so would a 182. Robin's are wonderfull aircraft though, the cranked wing is very efficient.
S-Works
27th Jan 2007, 07:48
130kn cruise, 5 or 6 pax, operate from a 50 meter strip! Runs on Jet A1 or whatever you want to call it at half the price of mogas, or just ordinary petrol as most people know it! Maintenance is a bit more of a grey area. But as IO540 says, a new piece of kit wont cost half as much as a decrepit old banger will, so it wont be too much if you keep it all upto date. Plus you get to up your street cred by having a chopper to play with:) Should impress the girleys!
I'm sorry, but did you mention budget? Well £150k should get you a working example i think!
Your having a laugh! 95kts with load 110kts at a push 2 up. It just sounds nice. But a lot to pay for a nice noise!
grasspirate
27th Jan 2007, 15:33
Which goes back to a Cessna my 172 will if its full payload of 1000lb out 370m and so would a 182. Robin's are wonderfull aircraft though, the cranked wing is very efficient.
Thanks for your reply. Just checked on Cessna's website and it appears that the 172 cannot lift 1000 lb, but a bit less than 900lb.
grasspirate
27th Jan 2007, 15:36
I bought an old PA28 (a 180C to be precise) last year for sub £30k and am very pleased. The "old" wing seems to lift very well, I operate from a 600m grass strip with pylons near to one end and never have an issue, even when hot; I can do 120kts all day at 30 to 33 Ltrs/ hr, and up to 135kts if I need to. I can lift 480kg, so 4 x 13 st people plus full fuel. Also much more stable than a Jodel / Robin type esp in imc bouncy stuff. Really great plane, totally reliable, can leave ourdoors with cover and parts / maintenance are good value, I think of it as a "Ford Escort" of the sky, similar to the C 172 in that respect but I think cheaper to buy.
Happy hunting!:)
Thanks for your reply, is your plane retractable ?
rug-rats
28th Jan 2007, 17:18
Hi have you thought about the Jabiru J400? go to http://www.jabiru.co.uk/aircraft/aircraft_range.htm click on the J 400 scroll down to the comparison with a Cessna 172, it comes out quite well:)
grasspirate
29th Jan 2007, 07:17
Thanks rug-rats. Just checked on the website. It doesnt have the payload required unfortunately.
The DR400 180 would tick all the boxes, with a useful load of about 1080 lb.
Rod1
FullyFlapped
29th Jan 2007, 10:43
Cessna 210 will eat the load/distance/speed criteria for breakfast ...
FF :ok:
tangovictor
29th Jan 2007, 11:10
All you have to do is keep the rain off a Robin DR400 A pollytunnel would be just fine as long as it had lots of ventilation.
At one time I had a DR400-140 on a 370M farm strip but it could not lift a full payload off the strip, 500M would have solved all the payload problems.
re the pollytunnel, don't they require planning permission now ?
172driver
29th Jan 2007, 12:12
Cessna 210 will eat the load/distance/speed criteria for breakfast ...
FF :ok:
absolutley correct.... and I even know one for sale (not mine, alas).
grasspirate
29th Jan 2007, 12:38
Thanks for your suggestion. Will this P210 be easy to maintain/insure and will it run on 96UL ?
FullyFlapped
29th Jan 2007, 13:17
Thanks for your suggestion. Will this P210 be easy to maintain/insure and will it run on 96UL ?
Ummmm ... no, and no, unfortunately !
And a P210 is the pressurised version ... even more trouble and expense !! ;)
FF :ok:
IFollowRailways
5th Feb 2007, 15:33
A Rallye 235E will do all of this with the possible exception of the fuel grade. I believe the 235 is a low compression engine, but not sure that it has been stc'd for mogas.
Yes - I know they can corrode, but I own a Rallye 180Gt (MS-893E) fitted with a wobbly prop and can honestly say I have had more FUN flying it than any of it's predecessors (Assorted Cherokee's, Turbo Arrow, Commander 114). When light/bit of a breeze, I can take off and land from the grass in front of my hangar instead of taxying to the runway! With the vp prop I can cruise at 118 Kts (24 Sq) although if I'm not in a rush I tend to go at 105 kts with 2350rpm, 21" manifold as I am getting tight in my old age and this uses around 30 litres/Hour verses 40 litres at the higher setting.
I think a lot of planes will do this job, except the MOGAS bit.