Bigger airports kicking out General Aviation!

[HR200]

I am beginning to notice that lots of growing airports like Leeds Bradford, Liverpool, Doncaster, Bristol, etc, are starting to expand in such a way that it is making it harder and more EXPENSIVE for general aviation pilots to get into them.

I am a PPL currently building hours to start moving up the ladder, and love being around a true airport environment.

However, my home airport Leeds Bradford, seems to be GA unfriendly, closing down rwy 09/27 which was perfect because at LBA the wind is usually from the west, but no we have to use the main 14/32 which is often above the X/W limit. Also, the costs are going up and they aint to interested in helping you.

Airports like doncaster, liverpool, bristol, inverness etc etc, and starting to move that way too.

I would appreciate all comments on this.

[sternone]

I would appreciate all comments on this.

True, sadly it's the law of economics, they do not wan't these small GA planes in their traffic... and they are maybe preparing/making space for VLJ in the near future ?

[GOLF_BRAVO_ZULU]

Busy Controllers also find, even well intentioned, GA Drivers a pain in the bum. Slow moving and verbose (particularly fast of lip) is not a recipe for a stress free day.

[JackOffallTrades]

Yes well the airport managers of these over-inflated ego driven little domestic airports (if they qualify as airports?) are the biggest problem. Absolutely no idea how insignificant they are in the world of BIG aviation or how much of a wart on the butt of REAL aviation (GA) they really are. Infact, these prats need a good hard kick in the ........ds..
GRRR....

[False Capture]

The key is how these places identify themsleves.

You don't hear about Heathrow International Airport, Gatwick International Airport, Luton International Airport or Stanstead International Airport.

However, you do hear about Birmingham International Airport, Blackpool International Airport, Bristol International Airport, Bournemouth International Airport, Cardiff International Airport, Exeter International Airport, Leeds-Bradford International Airport, Liverpool International Airport, Newcastle International Airport and Norwich International Airport.

Any Airport which identifies itself as an International Airport is clearly suffering from an inferiority complex. As such, these places should be avoided by GA pilots as they will charge you too much money in terms of landing, parking and handling fees.

[JackOffallTrades]

Indeed,
Many of the "International Airports" listed here, thank you False Capture, would not even qualify as suitable emergency alternates for my B777. Nor would I ever want to visit them in my spare time flying a Piper Cub or Chipmunk.

Quite frankly I think the management of these airfields need to review
their business plan if they ever want to attract anyone other than start up outfits in RJs or Ryanair cheapskates.

[cessna l plate]

The annoying thing is that 10 years ago, before the onset of the Lo-Cos, these airports were MORE than happy to host us and let us visit. This is the bit that sticks more than anything. A case of playground "rules", yes I will play with you until someone with a bigger packet of sweets appears.
All that said, as opposed to most of the aforementioned airfields, Manchester IS an International airport and is not struggling for an identiity, it always has been a leading light in the regional airport business, even if there are problems but that is for another forum! As GA we can still visit today. I think the landing / handling fees are about £30 or £35 through MSF, which although more than a tenner at say Sandtoft, is not bad value when you get the opportunity to put it in your log book, and have the attractions like Concorde on site and get to enjoy all the same "aids" as the bus drivers. The ATC guys are in the main "old school" and will help you where they can as long as you aren't a total muppet!
Might not be a destination of regular choice, but there are challenges in flying there and for a "different" place to go it has to be worth a try now and again!

[Single Spey]

Busy Controllers also find, even well intentioned, GA Drivers a pain in the bum. Slow moving and verbose (particularly fast of lip) is not a recipe for a stress free day.

GBZ, with an attitude like that then I think you might wish to consider another vocation, if you are a controller. Slow moving, verbose GA pilots are a fact of lile, like it or not, and they have just as much right to fly as the full time professionals.

[soay]

my home airport Leeds Bradford, seems to be GA unfriendly, closing down rwy 09/27 which was perfect because at LBA the wind is usually from the west, but no we have to use the main 14/32 which is often above the X/W limit.
Same story at Blackpool International. They are going to close 07/25 and 13/31, so that they can build a parallel taxiway to 10/28, to get the jets off it quicker. This winter has seen long periods of strong southerly winds, so if that plan had already been implemented, flying club renters and student pilots would have been grounded on many days.

[stillin1]

I would dare to suggest that you need to take a pragmatic and realistic look at the situation before getting all emotional.
Smallish regional airports for example = not a lot of ramp space = use the concrete that they do have to cater for the revenue-making commercial traffic = bye bye unneeded runways.
GA does not pay it's way when compared to commercial in a scenario where it has to be one or the other (limited staff / facilities / space etc etc). As a profit making company, what do you expect them to do?
It is not "nice" it may seem unfair and it is not friendly but it makes cash sense.:rolleyes:
The bottom line = Max PROFIT for min cost!
Now as for the GA can pay for facilities that it does not need question - Mode S as an example = there is a whole new argument:mad:

[ALEXA]

As regrads landing/handling fees at Manchester International, my recollection is that I paid someting like £72 last summer for an AA5, so rather more than the £30ish suggested by the earlier poster. And I was warned that departure in the "busy period" (after 4pm) would push it up to the £200 range!

That apart, ATC were absolutely brill - it was my first visit and I felt well prepared - but they were great on both arrival and departure. Helpfull, friendly, efficient.

Would I go again? Only if there were compelling business/family reasons - and certainly not in the busy periods!

[Single Spey]

Afterall, it is really a problem of society not allowing us to develop new GA airfields appropriate to our needs.

Fully agree. I would love to see some GA only airfields opened up close to major cities. Grab a chunk of regulated airspace back - under the equitable access principle - and operate with minimal ATC/AFISO. Just because it appears difficult for the current ATC system to accommodate doesn't mean it shouldn't be acheived. A major selling point for local residents could be that the aircraft operated are less of a nuisance than big jets, don't operate much at night, and are not all-weather so overall movements are less intensive.

Why shouldn't GA open an aerodrome next door to an exisitng regional for example? Any objection by the existing airport could be referred to the monopolies commission as anti-competitive to GA.

[Captain Smithy]

Single Spey, it would be a great idea, I too would love to see it happen. But that's in an ideal world.

Fact is is it would never happen, NIMBYism and Eco-Nazis would see to that. :ugh: :mad: :yuk:

A shame, really.

[Sir George Cayley]

False Capture - Although I agree with the sentiment of your arguement I think missing the fact that Ringway changed its style of name last century slightly undermines you.

Also, when John (Air Race Ace) Spooner was in charge the decline was tempo reversed. Hell, he even had a fly-in!

Back to the thread.

The CAA Strategic Review of GA did point this out and it will be interesting to see if HM Govt does anything about it.

Sir George Cayley

[soay]

The bottom line = Max PROFIT for min cost!
True, but it is likely to have the side effect of making flying school operations at those airports that close their crosswind runways economically unviable.

[False Capture]

Sir George Cayley and Cessna L plate,

Including Manchester Airport in that list of airports was an error, I meant to include Blackpool International Airport instead.

I have edited my earlier post.

[stillin1]

soay
Cruel and sad but true enough.

[HR200]

It annoys me, because, I fly light aircraft at the moment, but that is to build hours to move up the ladder, and I love a challenge and an experience.

So, flying into big airports is brilliant for me, but just not worth it in terms of cost, the only reason I fly out of Leeds Bradford is because its the easiest airport to get to. I love flying through other people airspace because it makes it a challenge for me, and increases my work load constanty talking to ATC, which is all good practice for me.

[Chilli Monster]

Why shouldn't GA open an aerodrome next door to an exisitng regional for example? Any objection by the existing airport could be referred to the monopolies commission as anti-competitive to GA.

You mean like Nottingham, Leicester and Derby airfields (GA) alongside East Midlands (regional Airport to those same three cities).

No problems there at all.

[unfazed]

Unfortunately for GA main growth in commercial traffic will be seen at the major regional airports so it is a fact of life that we are going to have to deal with

[Slopey]

As a recent PPL, I'm so disappointed with the attitude towards GA in the UK. Having done my training last year in sunny FL the can do, go anywhere, municipal airports all over the place, general attitude towards GA was idyllic.
Back in blighty - the attitude seems to be *humph*, can't do or no go.

And up in the NE of Scotland - there's only Aberdeen, Dundee, Inverness - we're not blessed with many airports as it is - if Inverness locks GA out then it's one less place to go - there's no where else up there at the moment except Dornoch.

I was planning on flying up to Inverness quite a bit over the next 3 years for work - I may well have to suffer that damn road instead :( Either that or it's back to America!

You'd think in this day and age that airports might like a friend in the form of GA - the general populous get to fly from the airport on pleasure/training flights, which builds the profile of anotherwise brick wall organisation, demistifies the world of aviation - and maybe next time they want to extend the runways the GA mob would weigh in and support the airfield etc. Getting the public a bit more sympathetic about aviation matters would be no bad thing.

And I pity all the training organisations which will be/have been forced out of decent airports - no wonder most people head to the US these days.

[Floppy Link]

Perth doesn't count ?

[Slopey]

Whoops! Forgot about Perth ;)

[Croqueteer]

:) Insch? Near a rail station.

[rodan]

The way I read it, Inverness are not planning to 'get rid' of GA, just acknowledging that as and when commercial services begin to put a strain on available apron space etc. that they will have priority. Can someone from the area confirm that Inverness is nowhere near this kind of scenario yet, and although the apron space is limited around the terminal, there is no reason why there shouldn't be a grass or concrete GA apron constructed somewhere else on the airfield?

[Slopey]

Yep - we fly out of Insch in the summer months. And there's other grass strips I know, but it's nice coming in and out of larger (hard runway) airfields. Especially in winter.

[niknak]

From a purely personal point of view, I am embarrassed and ashamed that my place is one of those is one of those which has hiked fees to make it a considerable financial disatvantage to GA to visit, or even operate as a based operator.
With us , we have our commercial customers to look after, which I accept is obviously the priority for the airport operator, so why not keep GA separate and be looked after at no extra cost on another part of the airfield?
Despite at leats two operators offering to give GA a home, nowt has been done and this really pisses me off.

We've never made any money out of GA and never will, so why not encourage their trade and let them do what they do and the commercial op's pay our way?

[Shunter]

09/27 at Leeds wasn't closed just to piss off GA operators, it was mainly to give Jet2 space for parking at the 27 end.

I recently bought a aircraft and it's based at Leeds. Shares in it were so popular I'm probably going to buy another one, also to be based there. The only current constraints for GA at Leeds are the amount of hangar space Multiflight have. Oh, and it's not cheap, but you get what you pay for!

I don't think you have anything to worry about as regards GA there at all. Whilst I can see some airfields making it difficult for GA operators and squeezing them out, having an organisation like Multiflight with a large flying school and a large number of home-based operators does quite a lot to cement GA's position.

Not that I'm saying it will never happen of course, just that in my opinion Leeds is one of the regionals it's least likely to happen at.

[Single Spey]

The way I read it, Inverness are not planning to 'get rid' of GA, just acknowledging that as and when commercial services begin to put a strain on available apron space etc. that they will have priority. Can someone from the area confirm that Inverness is nowhere near this kind of scenario yet, and although the apron space is limited around the terminal, there is no reason why there shouldn't be a grass or concrete GA apron constructed somewhere else on the airfield?

Quotes from the Inverness airport Master Plan Proposals:

2006 To 2010.

Light Aircraft - it is acknowledged that from an operational airfield viewpoint the continued growth in activity at the airport will put increased pressure on the operations of the light aircraft community. Moreover, the existing hangar facility used by the club is reaching functional obsolescence and is scheduled for demolition to make way for the expansion of car park 3. Therefore, the proposal as part of the master plan is to provide the flying club with a clearly defined grass area of the airfield which could be occupied on a leasehold basis but on the basis of clear right of vacant possession by the airport.
It is, however, acknowledged that the continued growth in passenger activity will, over time, put increased pressure on these activities and will ultimately lead to a requirement for light aircraft to relocate away from Inverness as has been the case at other expanding regional airports.

2011 To 2020
Light Aircraft - no changes are proposed over the medium term.

2021 To 2030

Light Aircraft - by 2030 light aircraft will have long been relocated off site.

:{

[RAC/OPS]

I love flying through other people airspace because it makes it a challenge for me, and increases my work load constanty talking to ATC, which is all good practice for me.


As long as it isn't Doncaster's new airspace (looking at your DSA airspace grab post about avoiding chunks of controlled airspace)?

[HR200]

As long as it isn't Doncaster's new airspace (looking at your DSA airspace grab post about avoiding chunks of controlled airspace)?

All I was saying is that there is not many places you can fly just to have fun up here except in the Vale Of York AIAA, anywhere else, you have airspace everywhere, class A airspace above you. I do like going through lots of airspace to increase the work load a bit for practice and experience, but I am slowly starting to find that because a lot of controllers are busy, they refuse you entry, then, that really restricts what you can do. I think thats where the airspace in the USA is good, spaced out, and you can enter most of it just on contact with the controller.

[cessna l plate]

I am quite sure that the airspace in the USA is easier to use. There is also a lot more of it!

Our skies are crowded. Yes there seems to be something of a back door attempt to create controlled airspace all over the country, and if that happens then perhaps we need to look, through the help of organisations like AOPA how we develop a new way of interacting with that.

The bit that makes me laugh over this is that greedy airport managers are quick to kick GA out if they get a whiff of Easy, Ryanair et al, and yet don't give a moments consideration as to where the jet drivers come from. I am quite certain that if you carried out a poll of 100 jet pilots, 95 of them will have at least one hour in a 172 somewhere! We need to sit back and watch carefully. Manager reduce the available areas for GA, GA dries up, then after a while the available pilots for the airlines is woefully short and they start cutting services to cope. Can you see where this is going?

[GOLF_BRAVO_ZULU]

Single Spey

You will be pleased to know that it's many years since I shuffled the flying machines. You are, of course, right that "Slow moving, verbose GA pilots are a fact of life". I was merely pointing out that they don't always endear themselves to a busy controller on a busy frequency. Having to ask "say again" because the, often nervous, SEP driver gabbled out his text book transmission so fast that it was unreadable doesn't help. Assuming that he wants to leave your Class A (Rule 22, then) airspace at Buxton when what he said sounded like Barton is not a good idea. The Controller who sounds calm and helpful (because to sound otherwise just makes matters worse) can feel wound up like a watch spring inside.

As an aeroplane owner, I too feel concern about the way the bigger aerodromes are pricing us out. I also feel that there is a case for charging at a variable rate. Discouraging GA traffic during, say, the mid-week teatime rush may have merit; but the charges for the Sunday afternoon siesta time must be fair and reasonable. The solution to everything in our wonderful Country is to price everything to the maximum the "market" can stand. That applies to car parks, public transport, licences and permits for this that and the other, you name it. A further consideration, now, is that any aerodrome that can't immediately satisfy its financial targets will soon be able to get instant Planning Permission for high profit housing. There is also the mind-set of, if you can afford to own an aeroplane and to fly it, you can afford to pay over the odds.

[DB6]

Dear CAA,
If you're going to let bigger airports kick out GA could you please get your fingers out and allow training from unlicensed airfields? Oh, and while you're at would you please tell JAA/EASA to F*^K OFF?

Lots of love,

DB6 :}

PS Sorry it's a bit late for Christmas

[rodan]

Quotes from the Inverness airport Master Plan Proposals:
...
It is, however, acknowledged that the continued growth in passenger activity will, over time, put increased pressure on these activities and will ultimately lead to a requirement for light aircraft to relocate away from Inverness as has been the case at other expanding regional airports.

2011 To 2020
Light Aircraft - no changes are proposed over the medium term.

2021 To 2030

Light Aircraft - by 2030 light aircraft will have long been relocated off site.
Thanks for posting that. I see that they are indeed planning on a new grass parking area. As for the rest, they are plainly delusional.

[Hampshire Hog]

As with so many things, why can't we British manage what other countries seem to without a fuss (or enormous charges)?

Many EU countries mix GA and commercial traffic without a problem, whilst one of my club instructors who used to teach in the USA was telling me about flying a SEP into New York Kennedy - where he was treated to a landing fee that was so cheap it would put most UK regionals to shame + 2 hours free parking (imagine that at LHR!)

What really bugs me is the attitude of the controllers spreads out from the airport. Solent have gained a real reputation for poor service to GA, whilst along the coast Bournemouth is really helpful. Now, Southampton has become busier over the last couple of years - and they have effectively kicked out GA from the airport, but it is no Heathrow or Gatwick and I cannot see any reason why Solent Radar should behave so miserably towards us.

I transited the Luton zone a while ago - now that's a really busy area - and they couldn't have been more helpful.

HH

[IO540]

What is really needed is a change in planning regs, to enable people to set up full-planning (not 28-day rule) strips in open countryside, with a shed to keep the plane in.

There are thousands of places like that in the UK already, but mostly in areas where aviation activity is widespread so people don't complain (much). Most of them don't have planning so they have to keep visitors out and don't like to share the place with others.

Quite where PPL training is going to move to when the bigger GA fields close to developers, I don't know. Unlicensed strips I guess - just like it was many years ago. But then you really need freelance instructors; something else that has been killed off in recent years.

[Single Spey]

Golf Bravo Zulu

It's also been many years since I 'shuffled the flying machines' although I haven't yet risen to the heights of aeroplane owner - just renter.

I must also add that it isn't always the sole fault of the lowly PPL. I was recently flying in the vicinity of Inverness airport and called on approach for FIS as I would be crossing the approach at 5 miles, 3500 ft, N to S. However the frequency was almost entirely taken up by the controller dealing with one commercial aircraft inbound from the S decsending to 3500 ft, for a visual, and another light aircraft departing to the SE for a rejoin. This must have involved at least three transmissions to each aircraft: passing instructions and clearances, then passing full traffic info to each, and finally passing regionals, winds, threshold elevation etc etc. For an inexperienced PPL just trying to work out when to jump in would have been daunting enough, let alone remebering what to say in which order, whilst safely flying the aircraft, coupled with the fact that the response would probably have gone through all the same traffic info and pressures which sounded very complicated (threshold elevation? never been told that before). Fortunately this was all outside CAS so there wouldn't have been the added pressure of navigating clear of a zone until cleared etc etc. I had time to complete a gentle climbing 360 and must have then covered another 4-5 miles before I had a chance to call.

Thus I do believe that the environment in which ATS is provided can have a big impact on how a PPL interacts with the system. I think it is a very great shame that controllers are not taught to fly at least to the standard of having to plan and execute a cross country through Controlled airspace. This wouldn't have to be solo, but could be carried out with an instructor just there as safety, with the controller doing all the flying, navigating (no GPS) and RT as handling pilot. After all, all controllers talk to pilots, but it doesn't have to be the other way round.;)