Video of C-182 crash

[rotornut]

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=ca29358d1d

[ProcATCO]

Rotor,

I cannot believe that you are so sick that you put a link like this on a forum such as this!!!!!!!

The aircraft was overwieght, the pilot totally inexperienced, UTTER STUPIDITY!!!

You should be totally ashamed := :sad:

[kevmusic]

This video has been posted before (I think it was on this forum), about 6 months or so ago, and was much discussed.

[eharding]

Rotor,
I cannot believe that you are so sick that you put a link like this on a forum such as this!!!!!!!
The aircraft was overwieght, the pilot totally inexperienced, UTTER STUPIDITY!!!
You should be totally ashamed := :sad:

As kevmusic says, been done here before.

An excellent reminder that W&B screw-ups get you killed.

[MikeJ]

I agree ProATCO with your comment.
But even so, its a lesson for all of the dangers of lifting the nose too early, getting airborne in ground effect on the back side of drag curve.
Disaster!
Much the same happened to an instructor taking a trial lesson at Bournemouth in 1999. 3 on board killed. But just inside W&B.
As with the Biggin fatality last year, the instructor had never flown the type before.

[eharding]

So why the big wagging finger?

[BerG-NZ]

Here at the International Aviation Academy watching crash videos is our favourite passtime!

[stickandrudderman]

ProcATCO, I think you are being a liitle harsh.
As MikeJ says, it's an excellent example of the dangers of overloading/lifting the nose too early.
IMHO it looks to me as if the pilot could have recovered had he lowered the nose and flown in ground effect to build the airspeed, but he persisted in trying to gain height, which was his ultimate downfall.
I'm no expert but that's how I see it.
Personally I think every pilot should see this video!:D

[QDMQDMQDM]

ProcATCO,

Get off your stupid, politically correct high horse. Of course this video should be seen here.

Hot day, rearward CG, overloaded, barely airborne in ground effect at critical AoA, back of L/D curve, pilot unable to reduce AoA due to resulting loss of lift and unable to climb out of ground effect due to lack of power and excessive drag.

This is something we should all see, say three Haily Marys and swear on our mother's name never to do ourselves.

QDM

[IO540]

Any opinions on how far over (%) MTOW that plane was?

[172driver]

Any opinions on how far over (%) MTOW that plane was?

Not so sure it was overgross at all. If you look closely, there appears only one person (plus, one would assume, the sick/injured child and the oxygen bottle) in the back. For a 182 this, at first blush, doesn't really look like a problem.

The way the t/o is handled (or rather - mishandled) is a different matter altogether. Nose wheel off way too soon, AoA, pretty much everything is wrong here. Seriously f***ed up shortfield t/o, methinks.

We watch and we learn (hopefully) and may these poor chaps RIP.

PS: ProATCO, you probably made a wise career decision - stay on the ground

[scooter boy]

What a tragedy! Those poor people.

Rough strip, very hot, close to MTOW, he nearly made it - I think he would had he been on tarmac with more runway.

IMHO Seeing this kind of thing first hand brings home the unforgiving nature of miscalculation in aviation, hopefully it reminds us to reevaluate the risks we take and helps to reinforce good practice.

Sometimes a horrific event like this can be a wake up call.

RIP

SB

[englishal]

Of course we should watch videos like this, and learn from them. A couple of days ago we had a presentation which showed a person having their head chopped off by a helicopters rotorblades. It showed this mans brain laying on the helideck after the incident. It was not particularly nice but the idea of the presentation was safety around helicopters.......and it certainly drummed it home. I for one will be ducking in future ;)

[Pilot DAR]

Hello fellow flyers,

What a useful training aid! For those, like me, who watch such videos so as to learn to be better pilots, go here:

http://www.alexisparkinn.com/aviation_videos.htm

proACTO, I'd stay away from this one, it would overload your delicate sensibilities for sure!

It is my opinion that this pilot's only failings (though obviously severe) were to choose a soft field takeoff technique on what would appear to be a reasonably firm and suitable takeoff area, to fail to allow the aircraft to accelerate once airborne, and to fail to maintain directional control once airborne. The C182 can be very safely pulled of the ground early, as long as you immediately allow the plane to accelerate once of the ground. Though W&B could be a factor here, the plane would get airborne this way at any weight or C of G. A STOL kit can let you get further into this phase of flight as well.

When you fly this way, the nose is so high that seeing the runway ahead is not possible. Directional control can only be maintained with reference to the runway edge out the side of the windshield. This runway does not appear to me to have a clear edge, so probably he let it drift over, without really noticing.

The often repeated saying "learn from the mistakes of others, because you won't live long enough to make them all yourself" seems to apply here.

Cheers Pilot DAR

[rotornut]

You should be totally ashamed

ProcATCO a.k.a. the Archbishop of Canterbury;)

[RatherBeFlying]

Shortly after liftoff, the a/c drifted off the runway heading at low level. You can see the people on the ground who were taken by surprise and had to suddenly get themselves out of the way:eek:

I have taken off from sand in a C-172 with 4 adults aboard and full standard tanks. Once you're rolling at 35-40 kt. you have to ease forward keeping the nosewheel just above the ground to gain flying speed.

Before you do this you designate an abort point on the runway where you chop the power if not airborne -- no problem stopping on sand;)

[stevef]

I'm not a pilot but I've been involved in aviation for nearly thirty years and naturally follow the safety aspect of flying from an engineer's viewpoint. I've been unfortunate enough to witness a flying accident in which five aircrew were killed and the aftermath of several other incidents, both fatal and non-fatal. Very unpleasant, either way. The Alexisparkinn website has some interesting clips but I've avoided every one that has fatal consequences. How would you feel if it was a friend/colleague/family member that was killed and the accident put on display for all to see?
There is plenty of information available on the AAIB/FAA sites if someone is really interested in the cause/prevention of accidents and not seeing the last few moments of a fellow flier's life.
Sorry - I feel strongly about this.

[QDMQDMQDM]

Steve,

The fact that you are a non-pilot is relevant here.

Most of the Alexis Parkinn fatal clips are not directly relevant to the mass of flying pilots and watching them represents simple voyeurism. This one, however, is relevant to everyone who has ever sat behind the controls of a light aircraft and we are all only ever a whisker or two from an accident of this sort.

This video should be seen by every student and licenced pilot.

QDM

[PompeyPaul]

How would you feel if it was a friend/colleague/family member that was killed and the accident put on display for all to see?
If it prompted debate, and a pilot in a similar situation recalled the video, remembered what to do and it saved his and his passengers lives, then it would've been worth it.

[Pilot DAR]

I politely disagree with QDMQDMQDM: "Most of the Alexis Park Inn fatal clips are not directly relevant to the mass of flying pilots and watching them represents simple voyeurism." (sorry, I don't know how to make the quote function work properly here (inadequate training!))

It is my opinion that most of the accident/incident video clips available for viewing are relevant to all pilots because all of these events would be the result of either poor decision making, or inadequate training. The fact that I do not fly B-52's does not make the video of the guy knife edging it into the ground voyeurism (unless I watch it numerous times I suppose). It is one of the many things that sticks in my mind every time I fly. A very poor decision was made.

I'm properly trained and current, how will I always make a good decision, and do better. How lucky am I that the few really stupid things I've done in a plane were not caught on tape! Were they to have been, for certain, someone would have remembered mine, and made a better decision! (Don't worry, only pride and some aluminum hurt. Aluminum repaired, pride set to a lower level for a long time!)

For those who have watched "No Easy Days" video (US Navy carrier mishaps), you could say that most of us will never attempt a carrier landing, but watching those propeller driven fighters attempt a go-around, and roll on their backs, sticks in my mind when I fly the C185. It's certainly no Corsair, but you can still go off the side of the runway if you're not paying attention when you add power!

I consider my participation in this exchange group a good opportunity to share safety and wisdom. As I reap it, I shall certainly do my best to spread it too!

Cheers, Pilot DAR

[ProcATCO]

QDM - you obviously have little appreciation of "politically correct"!

clearfinals - I have organised CAA Safety Sense meetings!

To all and sundry, I am happy my comments have engendered a good discussion on this!!

;)

[vee-tail-1]

Thanks for posting that gut renching video.
Crap weather, haven't flown since September. Being pressurised by a friend to take him flying next nice day. Pulled the aeroplane out of the hangar, then realised what a "prat" I had nearly become!
That video reminds me of the consequences..
Next nice day means flying with an instructor and practising until I am safe to fly with ME, let alone take a passenger.

[Say again s l o w l y]

Watching videos like this is not for fun. In fact anyone who enjoys this sort of thing is a very sick puppy indeed.

However, these are very useful training aids, but not pleasant to watch and definately aren't entertainment.

[High Wing Drifter]

The problem with this forum is that people seem to lose their senses of restraint - perhaps we should call it "forum rage"?
The Flyer Forum was OK when the majority of posters used their real names. But it went mostly anonymous and then it seemed like every post was going to result in kneedboards at dawn. It is better now but still cussy like PPRuNE.

I wonder if forcing real names would improve things or kill the forum stone dead?

[Wicked shimmy]

I wish as a young, inexperienced commercial pilot I had seen this video. I crashed in a very similar fashion at max weight in very warm conditions when departing from a mountainous airstrip in an ancient, underpowered Cessna I was flying for the first time. The result was a piss poor attempt at a short field takeoff and climb out from rising terrain because I didn't know any better. Luckily we hit the forest canopy, that although ripping the aircraft apart, slowed us down gradually and saved us from serious injury. Unfortunately the occupants of this flight didn’t have the same luxury.

As PompeyPaul says, if a pilot in a similar situation recalls this video and it causes him to think twice and react appropriately, then this video is worth everything.

[IO540]

The Flyer Forum was OK when the majority of posters used their real names. But it went mostly anonymous and then it seemed like every post was going to result in kneedboards at dawn. It is better now but still cussy like PPRuNE.
I wonder if forcing real names would improve things or kill the forum stone dead?

The thing that gets up my nose is when a forum goes all cliquey; when people start posting one-liners about anyone fancy a beer tonight. Or one-liners containing zero information, like some sort of pi**ing contest of smart-ar*e remarks. Thankfully we don't have much of that on pprune.

Forcing real names would strip the forum of its best contributors, IMHO (and I am not counting myself in this, BTW). Most people with something worth reading have real jobs and businesses and do real flying, and they can't post frankly under their real names, for fear of risking their ground arrangements. One can google for all this stuff and how much do you want a google on your full name to turn up a catalogue of your views on all and sundry?

The only aviation forum I am aware of where many people use real names is one paid-members-only forum, and it has very few participants indeed. It's also vigorously moderated - presumably because a forum with few participants can be. I remember the Compu$erve forums from the early 1990s, which forced everybody to post under their full CS account name, and they had very few participants (worth reading that is) and were also heavily moderated and probably for the same reason.

The way to stop aggression here is to simply ignore it, or tell the aggressor that you are not taking the bait, or something like that. Most people get the message.

[wbryce]

If it prompted debate, and a pilot in a similar situation recalled the video, remembered what to do and it saved his and his passengers lives, then it would've been worth it.

I agree, I don't like watching these videos, nor do I like reading AIB reports with fatalities involved but I read for the benefits to learn from others.