Uwo Cam

[wannabepilot1531]

Hey, just wondering if anyone in this forum has, or know of anyone who has graduated/attended the University Of Western Ontario's Commercial Aviation Management Program? I am currently in grade 11 right now. Any comments about the program, how difficult was acceptance? what were your marks prior to being accepted?

[l_reason]

I have no idea about the UWO program other then it’s going to cost you a medium size fortune. I keep my plane across the taxiway from Empire and they do a lot of flying when the weather is good. I would look into other schools and programs before you sign up. Depending on if you want to become an instructor or north to the bush when your done with your flight training. You will NOT be burning jet fuel until you have more then 1000 hours. Have a look at avcanada.ca

On another note London is a great town for young people! It can be quite a party town, this could pose some problems for you if you are one for spending time with a cold drink in your hand. Rather then with a book in your hands.

If you do make it to town look me up I’ll show you what a “real” plane is like.
Cheers

[doubleremix]

I know several people who have graduated from the program, and none of them seem disapointed with their investment. UWO is a great school with a great reputation, and as pointed out earlier, London is truly an amazing city.

You can't go wrong with getting a university degree (regardless of what others will say), and obviously you need to get your licences and ratings finished as well. Yes, the program is expensive, but it is no worse than if you were to get a degree and do your training seperately.

My recommendation is to go and visit UWO, go check out Empire Aviation, talk to the instructors as well as students, and then make your own decision. Regardless of what you decide, try to go to university. You won't regret the decision and it is slowly becoming a necessity.

Have fun!

PS - The program seems pretty intense - be prepared to work harder than you ever did in high school.

[wannabepilot1531]

Thanks for the input guys, it is greatly appreciated!... and if possible, keep it coming!
Aaron.

[sepia]

Being a newer program there's a very small number of grads out there in the industry. So that said, it won't have the reputation like Sault or Seneca college within the industry. I would personally go to Sault, Seneca or Confed. You'll have a much larger network of people within the industry that know and respect your education when you finish.

[wannabepilot1531]

thanks sepia, but that post brings up a question. do you really think that employers would rather see a 2/3 year college diploma (eg:, sault, seneca or confederation) from a college with a good reputation then a 4 year university degree (eg:, bachelors degree with commercial aviation management from western)? just wondering what you guys have to say about it. thanks again

[sepia]

That's a good question. There is currently only one employer that will directly give you points for your education. Air Canada holds a Sault or Seneca diplmoa at par with a degree from anywhere. Sault and Senca are truly Aviation programs, rather than a buisness program some flying tacked on. Sault and confed are also much cheaper options.

So to summarize, unless you're unsure about wanting to fly in the future and desire a degree to fall back upon: Why pay more, go to school longer, fly worse planes, etc etc etc.

[20driver]

Sepia has some good points. I was curious and looked the UWO website and it struck me as being expensive.
Something to consider if you can get into Sault or Seneca you can top up your education later to a full degree at a lot of places. You will get credit for a fair bit of your diploma.
It would be worth while to visit the three and spend some time on the flight side to see what the feel is.
Good luck with it
20driver

[ea340]

Wannabe
Sault and Senca are very good programs BUT not enough money to graduate all their students so many good pilots are weeded out to meet the budget. Moncton, Confed, Mount Royal ,and Selkirk also all run very good programs. The UWO is a new program but it is very good program with a solid flying program. If I was to do it again I would go to UWO you never know when the industry or your medical tanks talk to the guys a C 3, Jetsgo or Canjet . UWO flying program is run by a guy named Bill Welsh who runs a first class program . They have a good mix of very experienced instructors with class 1"s and and new grads. The program is not cheap . Good luck:ok:

[wannabepilot1531]

Some great advice coming on here guys. thanks a ton!

[sepia]

Sault and Seneca weed out the weaker pilots and students to assure a standard is met. This standard should, in an indeal situation allow someone to hire a Sault or Seneca grad and know they've got a quality pilot. When you pass UWO on your ability to fork out money to do extra training that takes away the exculisvity of the Sault and Seneca programs.

I started Sault with around 90 pilots, we finished with a handful over 20. If you think you're going to be one of the 70 that couldn't meet the standard, then I would suggest a pay as you go operation. If you're willing to work hard and apply yourself to the flying, go to Sault or Seneca. Your pilot education will be second to none within Canada.

[rigpiggy]

great, another space shuttle driver! derision and laughter, I'd rather fly with some bush guy, than somebody whose **** don't stink.

[doubleremix]

If you go to UWO, I guarantee you won't be passing based on your ability to pay. A university degree does not come easy.
I think it comes down to what you think you want out of your education/life. If you are set on going to UWO, do it! Don't worry about what biased losers online think (including myself). Just make sure you go and visit the schools before you decide.

[sepia]

rigpiggy,

How classy. I spent 4 years in the bush flying out of half a dozen substance abuse filled crap holes. So I must fit your criteria of someone good to fly with then. You've obviously taken things a bit too seriously here. Is what I said out to lunch? Are Sault and Seneca not the two best aviation schools in Canada? Not once did I say that you can't be a great pilot and go to a private school, uwo, moncton, etc. It's no different than saying Queens or UofT are on a different level than Ryerson or Concordia.

doublermix,

If you were to fail a class can you retake it next year, do you have to meet a minimum GPA to stay enrolled? If you were to need some additional time to pass your flight tests could you simply buy more?

[rigpiggy]

Sepia that maybe the case. I've flown with a number of seneca/sault guys, alot of the best ones are now at big red/little red tabernack and skycervice. there are however about 10% of your ilk that think your **** don't stink. I also know several that I wouldn't trust to fly my family. there are several people I know not from colleges that I wouldn't trust my family with. MRC, CP MFC and others are equally as adept at putting out good people, and to tell you the truth, I'd trust a newbie from mfc, at least he/she's seen some **** weather, or the mrc/cp who's seen the rocks. Ontario is easy in comparison, dodge a cb or two and slow to 170 50 miles back, I miss EROG though

[sepia]

rigpiggy,

Can you cut and paste where I say that my **** doesn't stink? You seem to refer to this motif over and over agian. I'm not implying that everyone from Sault or Seneca are god's gifts to aviation. I am saying that Sault and Seneca are the best schoools in Canada though.

The fly the nicest equipment
They offer the most indepth aviation training
They offer the largest alumni networks within Canada
They cost magnitudes less than other schools, though Seneca has changed in that respect recently.

I think you seriously need to reconsider your vantage point here. This thread started with someone asking about where to go to school. I've posted both factual and opinion based info on the subject for the original poster to sift through and use or throw out. You've done nothing more than try and discredit what I've said by saying I haven't spent time up north (which I have, in many different locations, flying many different planes), and trying to imply that I have some form of superiority complex.

Please, if you have something other than BS to post please do.

btw, mfc doesn't do ppl or cpl training in rvr 600 or 1200 days. If anything it just means those poor sob's just sit around more waiting for the wx to improve. It's the same VFR only operation as any other flight school.

[doubleremix]

doublermix,

If you were to fail a class can you retake it next year, do you have to meet a minimum GPA to stay enrolled? If you were to need some additional time to pass your flight tests could you simply buy more?

sepia,

As with all reputable universities, students are required to maintain a certain GPA to proceed to the next year. I am not sure what the exact requirement is.

In the past, students have been removed from the program because their flying skills haven't been up to par. Each lesson is carefully controlled and little slack is given to poor performers.

This is fact.

Are there colleges that are doing training in RVR1200? That is scary. :eek:

[rigpiggy]

WB1531, get a degree first if you can then get your license. a business degree is better than an aviation diploma, especially if you decide to go the expat route

Here you go Sepia

Sault and Seneca weed out the weaker pilots and students to assure a standard is met. This standard should, in an indeal situation allow someone to hire a Sault or Seneca grad and know they've got a quality pilot. When you pass UWO on your ability to fork out money to do extra training that takes away the exculisvity of the Sault and Seneca programs.

Your pilot education will be second to none within Canada.


Flew with a seneca guy last month. he rocked me to sleep. High standards indeed. Seneca and sault are subsidized by the ontario govt. so ability to pay goes hand in hand with where you live when you apply, as these programs aren't available to out of province students. yes taking your ppl/cpl on the bone is nice but if you had to pay for it all yourself what would you be driving?

FYI I couldn't return to finish my degree as I was to busy flying getting paid shiite to afford more schooling

[wannabepilot1531]

From what ive heard and researched, both sault and seneca are excellent schools, and every pilot that graduates from there seems to know what they're doing. but thanks

[Robertkc]

While we're on the topic - Does anyone know of/have any recommendations of any courses similar to the UWO program available in other parts of the world?

[ea340]

Embry Riddle in Florida and University of North Dakota. Oxford Air Training in the Uk is very good but not a university. The four folks I have flown with from Embry Riddle loved it . You are talking big bucks. I would stick with UWO although a new program is starting at the University of Waterloo Sept 2007

[wannabepilot1531]

ea340:

Thanks alot for pointing out that Waterloo had a new flight program commencing next year, i had no idea this was happening. It looks like a great program!

[wannabepilot1531]

Do we have anyone in this forum that has actually attended the Commercial Aviation program at Western University??

[Mist Approach]

Hi Wannabe...

I'm a UWO grad and I recently wrote this for a guy who had questions regarding the program on the avcanada forum. Maybe it will help you as well.

"I'm glad you're interested in the UWO program and I think you'll get a lot out of it.

In any case, I may not be the best person to tell you about admission averages now-a-days, because it's been quite a long time since I had to worry about those. My best advice is to contact Prof. Keith Fleming (519 661-2051 x82051 or [email protected] ([email protected])) with any questions you may have in that regard, as the BMOS and CAM programs are sorta his baby.

What I can tell you, is that your first year will be a riot. Now granted, you won't be flying, but trust me - it will actually help you in the long run. The first year is designed to get you used to university life. Almost everyone I know lost at least 10% on their averages from high school, so you will have your hands full just trying to keep up. On top of that, add all the good times that come with living in rez (I'm sure by now you've at least heard of Saugeen) and you probably won't remember much come summertime. Just be careful that you don't have too much fun or you won't make it into second year at all! In my year, we started with roughly 50 students and by 2nd year we were down to 25. Although it has probably changed by now, all you needed was a 60% to continue to year 2.

Year 2 is probably the hardest year of them all. Not only do you have a full course load, but now you must add your flying schedule as well. You will usually have 3 to 4 flight bookings a week, although the law of averages says at least half will be cancelled for weather. The reason that the workload is so hard here is that very few of your courses at school will work towards your Private Licence. This is because you can do the university courses without the flying and it has to be able to stand on its own. In a nutshell, you will find that the work load at least doubles year 2.

From there it's a piece of cake. Ok - well maybe not easy, but it will seem like it's getting better. By my 4th year, I was able to take on a 20 hr/wk part-time job on top of flying and school. You will find that by this time, fewer and fewer people will be droping/failing out of the course.

With respect for the quality of the flight training, it really is top notch. Empire will work you hard and expect you to perform your best. As a former flight instructor myself, I know this is not something you can get just anywhere. It may not be something you can put on a resume, but you will most definitely be a better pilot for it. I HIGHLY suggest going for a tour of Empire's facilities before you agree to anything. Contact Empire's General Manager Bill Welsh at 514.455.3020 and he can tell you all you need to know about Empire and how it operates.

I'm not aware if it's advertised, but CAM grads also have a great reputation in the industry and do very well for themselves. Just off the top of my head I can think of 3 Air Canada Jazz Managers, 2 Successful Cathy Pacific Cadet Program Candidates, 1 Ops Manager for a Northern Air Operator, 1 Jet First Officer, 1 Turbo-Prop FO, Many Single Engine Pilots doing all sorts of jobs, Several Military Recruits, 1 Masters student down at Empry Riddle in Daytona Beach, 1 student studying law (specifically aviation law), several guys working ramps and Tones of Instructors working at Empire and all over the country ... and those are only the grads I can remember. I also know that Old Empire Instructors have gone on to work at companies like Trasport Canada, Air Miksew, Voyageur, Nav Canada, Air Sprint, Flightexec and Wasaya. Not bad for a program with only 4 sets of grads!

Alright - Well that's about all I have to say about that. If you have any other questions, feel free to send them my way and I hope this helped you out. "

Mist

[wannabepilot1531]

Mist Approach,

Thanks alot for the info, but guess what, im the same guy that was asking about it on the avcanada forum lol.

Aaron

[Fingersmac]

Check out Confederation College. You're done in two years (18 months), start flying right away in first semester and there are no quotas. You have to attain a 70% average in aviation courses and a 60% average in non-aviation courses; if everyone in your year passes, then everyone continues to the next semester.

You get a CPL with a float rating (24 hours on floats) and a college diploma. No Multi-IFR though, although they do prepare you for the written exam. The entire program costs approximately $8500, with the flight training completely subsidized by the government. We have a brand new multi-million dollar facility that was built in 2001 and a fleet of 14 aircraft (1x C180, 1x R172K, 4x C172S, 8x C172N). The senior instructors are very experienced career instructors (some have industry experience as well) and the intern instructors are all past graduates of our program. Both senior and intern instructors are always available to help with all aspects of the program (academics and flying).

If you want a degree, you can use your diploma to secure advance standing at most universities. I plan on working towards a degree in my spare time through Athabasca (who will grant me 1.5 years of university credit) while building hours (which is much more important than the degree, for the most part).

Confederation grads have been very successful in many facets of the industry including Air Canada, Jazz, Westjet, Cathay Pacific, Canadian Forces and the MNR (CL415/215 waterbomber pilots).
It's worth a look for sure.