Some advice on my RT please

[SparkyBoy]

Hi,

I'm only a few lessons away from the circuit and then solo and I've still not really got to grips with my RT conversations.

I know what I'm supposed to say, but when it comes out I often get things wrong, for example saying "Oh" instead of "Zero" and if anything is not a standard request I appear to get in a funk over it and the instructor takes over.

I'm not a particularly nervous person, and really shouldnt have stage fright! :eek:

Has anyone got any hints or tips?


Thanks

Sparky

[AerBabe]

Practise!

Get together with someone else at a similar phase and take turns playing the parts of the piot and ATC. I know it sounds daft, but it helps if you know what reply to expect to your call. And practise making calls in your car, or on the bus - ask for departure info/clearance, make position reports etc etc.

Also, get a scanner and listen! Don't spend a fortune though.

[mazzy1026]

Hi Sparky

This is very common indeed, something which we have all done. The hardest part is the so called 'radio freeze' when you hit the button and then, well, freeze!

There is no quick way around this other than practise, however here a few tips which seemed to work for me:

1) Write down all the common calls, I.e. request taxi, depart, landing clearance etc and have them to hand when flying (not so good in the circuit, as a lot of it can be just casual English) but when you get to the Navigation stage this will help a lot.

2) If you drive a car (I know this might seem a little sad) just mumble to yourself the radio calls as you go along and eventually you will remember them no problem.

You will get to the stage also, when you know what the controller will say back to you, so you can pretty much write down the entire conversation for a flight, before you even leave the clubhouse!

Finally, study the material and in a few more hours time, have a go at the RT course, which is challenging, but extremely helpful. Other than that, enjoy it and don't worry too much about it - it will all fall into place!

Best of luck,

Maz :ok:

[Pitts2112]

Yeah. Stop worrying about it. You're a student. People will know that as soon as you key the mic. They'll cut you some slack. Just think about what you want to say before you transmit and if you miss anything, you'll be asked.

And fly the airplane through the controls - not the radio!

If I could open up Wylie's School of Flying, I'd keep the radio off until a student was getting ready for his first solo Xcountry...and I'd teach initial skills in a Cub at a grass strip...but that's my fantasy and probably not your reality.

Radio's a lot easier than we think it is.

Pitts2112

[AerBabe]

Read my article on RT in a recent issue of Today's Pilot. :}

[Mercenary Pilot]

Did you know that as soon as you press that little button...it instantly attacks the part of the brain which gives humans the power of speech . What you’re talking about happens to everyone so don’t worry about it.

Seriously though, practice is the key. Good RT is an asset, there’s nothing that pi$$es me off like someone umming and errring while the controller is trying to turn me onto base, a localizer intercept or an issue a landing clearance.

Good RT gets you across control zones, your RT is the only indicator of your general ability to ATC. If you sound like a muppet, there’s a good chance the controller will think you will botch a transit clearance so may not issue one. Which means it’s the long way round for you .

[gcolyer]

Hi,

"Oh" instead of "Zero"

Sparky

I had this trouble when i joined the army. When it came to getting paid during basic training, you would have to march up to your commanding officer, slute, state your name rank and number. All fairly easy i thought....until i said "Oh" in stead of "Zero"..at this point you get told in a ...unsocial manner where to go and if i want paying next week to remember "Oh" is a letter and "zero" is a number. I soon learnt.

Not really sure how this will help your RT though.:hmm:

Practice is all it will take for you. I was the same, my first few solo circuits were diabolical on the radio, after that it starts to fall in to place.

Try to anticipate what ATC shuld be saying to you and keep your transmissions as short and to the point as possible. If you don't give enough info or the right info they will ask you for it.

It is just a matter of time and doing it for yoruself.

[DeeCee]

What is Wylie's School of Flying?

[ronnie3585]

The best bit of advise i ever got about RT is as simple as it is practical - for the most part RT is echoing i.e. no. 1 call finals etc.

Its easy for me to say, but try to relax.
Be confident in what you are saying. I find if you sound confident the controller thinks you actually know what you're talking about!

Above all never forget to Aviate Navigate Communicate.

[mazzy1026]

Oh (zero :E ) and if your unsure of something or didn't hear what was said - NEVER be afraid to ask for clarification:

"If in doubt - shout"

:ok:

[BroomstickPilot]

Sparky,

Is there an R/T groundschool course where you are? If so, I would suggest you join it.

It is so much easier to learn R/T in a properly equipped classroom, with a good R/T instructor, where you are not trying to control an aeroplane with your other hand and both legs, and you are not spending £2 per minute.

Good luck,

Broomstick.

[splatt]

I haven't been flying for quite some time, but looking at getting back into my training in the next couple of months. When I left off I was always worried about getting my phraseology wrong very much like the original poster.

Just wondering if, in the interim, any of those radio telephony audio CDs that the pilot shops sell are any good? I do about an hour of driving every day. Perhaps I could use this time by practicing with these CDs. Anyone have any experience of them?

splatt

[Mercenary Pilot]

Splatt

I think there is a company called airspeak who produce that kind of product

[Pitts2112]

What is Wylie's School of Flying?

That would be the flying school I would set up if I didn't have to pay for important things like food and shoes and stuff where I would teach people to fly the way I think it ought to be taught, based solely on my experience as a PPL, not as an instructor (notice nice little disclaimer there to ward off the inevitable flames?)

Wylie's School of Flying
A Two-Chapter fantasy in several parts:

A few provisos:

I would be teaching people who weren't necessarily headed for a professional track but were more interested in grass strip, grass-roots, vintage flying on a summer evening, followed by a tall glass of iced tea under the tree the airplane is parked next to. And sitting under said tree with a half dozen mates talking about flying as much as doing it. With an old barn/hangar/workshop just behind said tree with a few old taildraggers and a truly odd collection of airplane parts, old car bits, and old license plates screwed to the wall going back to whenever.

Chapter One: Where the Student first gets into the air and then gets rid of the instructor:

I would teach people from scratch up to Xcountry in a vintage taildragger like a Cub or, even better, a Taylorcraft. No radio, no systems, no tower, no airspace - in short, no "aviating", just flying like it used to be taught. This way students could learn the feel of the airplane without all the distractions of the modern environment. They'd learn proper stick and rudder skills that they'd never forget and that only a taildragger can teach. I'd use retired guys, or weekend pilots, as instructors; they would be teaching because they wanted to and would be focussed on the student more than their interview with an airline. I'd teach them at a grass strip, or at least an uncontrolled airport where NORDO traffic was the norm so they'd learn to see and avoid and not be distracted by the noise-maker in their headsets. Here they'd spend their time until they were ready to leave the nest and start doing their cross-countries. We'd teach all the weather stuff here, too, so students could start using their own judgement about whether they should be flying or not and how the day would likely turn out.

Chapter Two: Where the Student flies the coop once, then once and for all.

At the point a student knows how to fly and how to read the weather man's tea leaves, he then needs to learn how to aviate - how to operate with other aircraft around, maneuver the complexities of airspace, and talk to people on the ground. From here I'd transition them into something more practical for the purpose, say a new two-seat trainer or something with a few radio nav-aids and GPS fitted. That's when we'd start flying into other airports with more traffic, with radio requirements, dealing with airspace and navigation skills, doing the cross countries and preparing to take the GFT.

There's more to the philosophy but that, in a nutshell, is how I'd prefer to run a flying school. I'd probably go broke doing it, but it's how I think it ought to be done, for that kind of hobby flying.

Pitts2112.

[planeenglish]

I haven't been flying for quite some time, but looking at getting back into my training in the next couple of months. When I left off I was always worried about getting my phraseology wrong very much like the original poster.
Just wondering if, in the interim, any of those radio telephony audio CDs that the pilot shops sell are any good? I do about an hour of driving every day. Perhaps I could use this time by practicing with these CDs. Anyone have any experience of them?
splatt
Hi splatt and sparkyboy,

Airspeak is a book (with audio tapes) that has been out of print for ages. It was written by Fiona Robertson. (She is being pushed by the aviation english community to make a revamped version.) It is difficult to find, expensive when you do find it and a bit out of date but teaches the basics and is structured quite effectively.

Wlico, English for VFR pilots volume 1 is a pretty good cd rom source.

AOPA has some excellent free courses on line http://www.aopa.org/asf/online_courses/
I learned R/T and have taught it in the classroom with professional pilots for years (my job being a purely linguistic aspect). I have recently started studying for my PPL and found myself freezing up when I needed to make a communication. I believe you can spend any amount of money you want but it may just be a waste, get in there and try.

I discussed this exact topic with my instructor at length Sunday past. His response was "it is my job as an instructor to know when you can and can not make a communication due you are busy flying. I have you begin making radio calls from your first flight but do not expect you to make them all."

Best,

PE

[FlyingForFun]

All excellent advice so far. (Pitts... if you ever find that you can live off of Super Noodles and you've got all the shoes a man can reasonably need - surely two pairs is enough for any man? - and you open your flying school, drop me a PM if you need an instructor!)

One thing to add, though, is to arrange a visit to an air traffic control unit. Partly to see what goes on up there.... but also to realise that the voices on the other end of the radio are just people. If all else fails, try talking English to them, and there's a reasonable chance they'll understand you. They know that "oh" means "zero", they almost certainly don't say "decimal" (or even "deysimal") anywhere near as much as they ought to themselves, and they like to believe that they are there to help, not to intimidate.

Good luck with the rest of your flying!

FFF
-----------

[J.A.F.O.]

Try eBay for the RT CD or tapes - I bought them during my training, listened to them in the car and then sold them back for more than I'd paid.

Pitts - Please PM or email me with an application form for your club, any man who can read my dreams deserves my support.

[RudeNot2]

I just completed my forst solo this morning and god only knows how I can stil type..

The rt is something you pick up on quite quickly.. I have completed about 14 - 15 hours and cxxked up one call during my solo..

Best of luck mate - it will come..

Dave

[Whirlygig]

Where do think my personal title came from?

I had a complete brain freeze at the point where I had just almost maybe possibly got the hang of hovering. I was then told to ask Tower for a right hand circuit. I got as far as half the call-sign and then the only word that came out was "FFuuuuuuuu......."

You get the picture - I'm sure it amused the captain of the KLM flight that was about to take off!

Cheers

Whirls

[Pitts2112]

FFF and JAFO,

Thanks for the support. Keep your eyes open for lottery winners. If my name appears, send in your CVs immediately!

Oh, by the way, do you have your own BBQ grills (mandatory for the hangar chat after beer o'clock under the tree)? I suppose we could pitch in and by one for the company.

We wouldn't make any money, but we'd teach people to fly properly and we'd have a hell of a lot of fun doing it.

Pitts2112
Future owner of Wylie's Flying School

[Foxy Loxy]

None of us are perfect.

I'm an ATCO of a fair number of years experience - I still screw up often! Stick to the basics. If you can't remember exactly what you have to say, it's who you are, what you are and what you want.

We'll work it out. Stay confident. You'll be OK!!

Foxy

[phillpot]

Sparkyboy,

Dont worry about it chap, RT freaked me out when I started, I once replied to a radio call with "Roger That" took me weeks to live that down!!!

Remember ATCOs are just human they are there to help us OK I admit they do sit up in their tower but thay are not scary really.

I used to sit on the loo and practice or in the car, if in doubt on what to read back do it all and always have a piece of paper and pencil handy to scribble down squawks and clearances.I know youre not quite there yet but when you start flying x-country when making en-route calls try to remember this

Who you are,
Where you are,
What you want.

Remember that and youre there, if you get it wrong just say "apologies" and start over.

Remember you learnt to talk cos all day long you heard people talking, a few more hours flying and you will be amazed how fast you pick it up above all dont get in a flap about it and enjoy the flying.

good luck.

[phillpot]

Oh Ive just read Foxy Loxys post about who you are, what you are and what you want, maybe I sould have read that before posting the same thing!!!

I`ll get me coat then!

[J.A.F.O.]

Pitts

I've got one of those half oildrum affairs, keep on picking the lottery numbers and don't worry about us running out of sausages.

Can I have a Husky and a Waco Biplane, please?

[Pitts2112]

Pitts
I've got one of those half oildrum affairs, keep on picking the lottery numbers and don't worry about us running out of sausages.
Can I have a Husky and a Waco Biplane, please?

Will definitely be in the fleet. Oildrum perfect!

Pitts

[theresalwaysone]

Sparky dont worry about it
If you read some of the posts above you will see that most pilots are full of **** and make it up as they go along. So take a leaf out of their books and soon you will be talking **** over the airwaves too!

PS but Sparky the only thing I ask is keep the **** brief as i spend my working day every day listening to it!

[sir.pratt]

Sparky,

It is so much easier to learn R/T in a properly equipped classroom, with a good R/T instructor, where you are not trying to control an aeroplane with your other hand and both legs, and you are not spending £2 per minute.
Good luck,
Broomstick.

you have to use your LEGS to fly an aeroplane?

[sir.pratt]

P.A.T

Position - ABDC 10 miles south west of Timbuktoo

Altitude - self explanatory, add atis/awib and qnh (as qnh is a component of what your altitude should be)

Intention - with @# POB, request joining for full stop/transit/circuits/whatever


same goes for unattended aerodrome or position calls in any MBA >> P.A.T. can't go wrong.

[MelbPilot85]

Like everyone else has said just practise. I used to walk around mumbling under my breath the call I would make and then the calls I would get back from Tower, and later on did the same thing to learn the IFR departure calls etc. It works! As for the phraseology, start by getting your message across (briefly), the right terms will come.
The main thing is to relax. Once you hear airline pilots screw it up, maybe that will help. I was on delivery the other day, got out the callsign, and that was about it, followed by an ummm.... errrr..... and a bit of silence before I remebered the golden rule, if you screw it up, just take your finger off the button. Then try again. Of course the controller knew what I wanted and gave me the clearance.
A good piece of advice would be to accept that you are gonna screw up, everybody does, so just learn from it. Don't let the fear of screwing up hold you back.

[theresalwaysone]

Don't let the fear of screwing up hold you back.

GOOD ADVICE-- I have made a career of it!

PS
The advice I used to give was

Get word perfect in your living room if you cant get the script correct on the ground you will not get it right in the air.

RT is abbreviated talk so be brief-- you dont have to read everything back to ATC thats why the phrases Roger and Wilco exist.

Remember at the end of day ATC are paid to provide a service for you its not the other way around.

Nobody is born with an Rt licence, everyone has to learn

[SparkyBoy]

Thank you all for some great advice, much appreciated. :ok:


Cheers

Sparky

[speedbird676]

As mad as it sounds, next time your in the car, read off every single number plate of every car which passes, using the correct phonetics and numerics. Should help everything come more naturally before long.

The other advice I can give you is if you have a copy of MS Flight Sim, sign up for VATSIM and practice your RT online. Plenty of very experienced controllers running the VATSIM network and loads of people to give you some instruction. It helped me no end before I started flying and my instructor commented on how naturally my RT was after only a couple of actual lessons. check out www.vatsim.net (http://www.vatsim.net).

[SparkyBoy]

As mad as it sounds, next time your in the car, read off every single number plate of every car which passes, using the correct phonetics and numerics. Should help everything come more naturally before long.

The other advice I can give you is if you have a copy of MS Flight Sim, sign up for VATSIM and practice your RT online. Plenty of very experienced controllers running the VATSIM network and loads of people to give you some instruction. It helped me no end before I started flying and my instructor commented on how naturally my RT was after only a couple of actual lessons. check out www.vatsim.net. (http://www.vatsim.net.)

I've got MSFS, just registered with vatsim now, thanks for that!

Cheers

Sparky

[splatt]

Thanks for the pointer on the Airspeak CD. Found one on eBay and got outbid yesterday. Will probably just buy from a 'pilot shop' as the final price on auction was quite close to what you'd pay at a shop anyway.

Phillpot, I have said something similar too. In response to notification of helicopter traffic nearby. I responded "Roger that Helicopter". Innocent enough, first clue was my instructor laughing in the RHS!

With regard to VATSIM, I tried it sometime back. I found that only big airports had any controllers. To fit in I started flying the Learjet and was promptly told to come back when I had learned to fly. Presumably, by some spotty teenager who was acting controller at the time. It's mostly kids on there in my experience. Their RT not quite the same quality and breadth as real life controllers.

My best buy so far for my RT has been a cheap little airband radio. Tuning into the local frequencies has taught me that some folks who already hold licenses are worse than me. I can pick out at least one pilot almost straight away due to his bumbling RT and insistence on talking just as he would do over a telephone ie. absolutely no RT phraseology. He hasn't been told off yet so I must be at least tolerable in comparison!

splatt

[IO540]

I haven't read the whole thread but listening to radio traffic on a radio is of limited value for learning the radio calls. I would say the majority of GA pilots don't use the correct phraseology, and many are so bad one wonders when they last used the radio.

Yesterday I left the ICOM on in the house (to flatten the battery so it could be properly recharged) and was listening to the Farnborough frequency 125.25; quite staggering. ATC must tear their hair out sometimes.

Personally I found the radio very hard during training, and again very hard during the IR in the USA due to their different phraseology. What I found helpful was writing down the standard radio calls (before flight) on bits of post-it pads and sticking them somewhere. It looks daft but one soon learns it.

The other bit of really good advice I picked up was: "speak to as few people as possible and when you do, say only what they need to know". This is not quite how the radio is taught in the PPL; students are told to call up London Info with everything including their inside leg measurement, but the service they get is close to useless (no radar).

[Jumbo Driver]

you have to use your LEGS to fly an aeroplane?


SP, if you want to fly a taildragger successfully, YES !!


JD ;)

[Sir Thomas]

He should have gone to Wylie's excellent school of real flying:}

[dme4ils]

IO540,
As a Farnborough ATCO there are times when we do dispair with the RT. I would emphasise though that everyone has to learn somewhen. In a previous life I held a PPL and learnt to fly in Guernsey. I used the "listen on a scanner" method to improve my RT, but then I was listening to Guernsey Approach with professional pilot types on it.:)
From a personal perspective the two main problems I get on 125.25 is pilots turning the volume down on a busy frequency (results in us being unable to deconflict you against large business jets! or unable to tell you about the hunter about to buzz you also on a FIS), and the all too regular occurence of pilots not listening before transmitting, and stepping on a readback of another pilot which of course just delays everyones requests whilst I confirm that the readback was correct.
Another post to this forum recommended visits to ATC. I thoroughly agree and most of us at Farnborough welcome anyone that wants to spend some of their valuable time with us. TICKETS ARE FREE AS WELL:ok: