Two men injured as plane crashes

[yakker]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/5171672.stm

[Cactus99]

A remarkable story, with a good outcome, well done to the guys!! :D

I liked to point out stories like these to some of my students and PPLs who never saw the point in practicing PFL's after there skills test.

This is why we practice PFL's, it may just happen to you one day, when your least expecting it!!:eek:

[Pudnucker]

Here here... I practice PFL's at least once a month - find it incredible that some simply don't do it... it will save your life (possibly) one day!

[stiknruda]

The Beeb photo suggests that the a/c came to a halt in a standing crop. Tall crops are notorious for catching the undercarriage and causing rapid decelleration.

It is a shame, had they been luckier with the surface (short grass) then the aeroplane may have remained Dunlop side down.

At this time of year (in rural UK) it is often difficult to judge what you is in the field of your choice until you are committed. Notwithstanding that, you won't find many cattle/sheep in standing crops!

I think that I would be happier chancing it by landing in a ploughed field (with the furrows) than by landing in a wheat field.

[gcolyer]

I would pick a road if it is wide enough. Whilst on my skills test i was asked where i am going to land for my PFL, i told the examiner on the bloody great motorway below me. He smiled said and said he never heard that and most people elect for one of the multitude of fields around them. I said the motorway is a lovely runway, just a little busy thats all. He seemed happy enough.

[Fournicator]

And people wonder why I rant on about how low the acceptable standards for a PPL are...........................

[Mike Cross]

You weren't by any chance one of the many Fournicators at Popham last weekend (seemed to be mainly German reg)?

Mike

[gcolyer]

Given the choice in possibly wrecking your beloved light single in crops or a furrowed field and landing on a nice big road (even though you might upset the traffic flow) what would you choose???

How is this classed as a low PPL standard? Obviously i see the dangers of putting down on a road or motorway, ie. hitting a car or a car hitting me. But surely it can't be a low standard.

You could say it is a low standard to land in a field and have the possibility of flipping over or mowing a cow down, or realising when you get down close to the ground there is a load of dead ground which is really going to spoil your landing.

Each option is equally as hazardous and choosing either option is not a "low standard"...at least in my opinion.

[Fournicator]

Mike:

I wasn't there, but pretty sure my aeroplane would've been, with one of my syndicate partners, who's quite big in that world.

GC:

How many roads are there in the UK, with no traffic on them, straight and flat, and orientated at least reasonably into wind?
Maybe in somewhere like Oz or sparsely populated parts of the US, yes, but in the UK?
How many UK gliders safely land out in fields during the summer months, managing to find suitable fields, devoid of too many beasties or tall crops? There are planty of eminently suitable fields out there.
And as for your use of the term motorway??? Strewth!
Saving the remnants of the aeroplane that has just let you down should be relatively low on your list of priorities, certainly not above avoiding needlessly and stupidly endangering the lives of anyone on the ground. Regardless of their safety, a moving vehicle will probably inflict much more damage on your puddlejumper than crop or pretty much any farm creature would.

Surely this is too obvious for even someonw outside aviation to understand, and is more common sense than airmanship? I can only hope that your PPL examiner thought you were joking when you made your somewhat idiotic comments.

[markflyer6580]

I can only hope that your PPL examiner thought you were joking when you made your somewhat idiotic comments.
Thats a bit harsh.....

Ther have been many succesful forced landings on roads,I seem to remember a PC12 turboprop doing so last year in the states and the pax walking away,also that 172 in the states who landed succesfully but the departure was awful,I am sure you have seen the video.....

Not to mention that film of the airliner landing on the car:p

I would certainly land on a road(IF a suitiable field was not availiable),a freind of mine tells me this is a routine thing in the world of microlight training.:eek: :)

Cheers

[Fournicator]

In the states being the important bits of information there, not such a good option in the UK.

There are many eminently landable fields in the UK, if you just bother to learn what different crops look like from the air.

[Say again s l o w l y]

I personally can't think of anywhere I'd LESS like to land than on a British motorway or road. Central reservations, lights, overhead gantries, road signs, power lines and flyovers.
That's without taking into account of traffic and our responsibility of not putting people on the ground into undue risk because of our actions.

So whilst Fournicator's words may be harsh, they are accurate.

I'd much rather find a nice safe field to stick it into.

[Chuck Ellsworth]

Interesting reading these back and forth insults on these forums.

With regards to landing on roads, a road is a better choice than a field with a standing crop as long as you make sure it is clear of traffic and wires in the area you plan on touching down.

And of course there is ample room to do so.

Chuck E.

[Gertrude the Wombat]

With regards to landing on roads...
Ah, well, Vancouver Island is certainly different to south-east England ...

Flying a floatplane (at not-very-much above the treetops) I asked the instructor what we would do if the fan stopped, as we weren't high enough to make it to the next lake (and there weren't any fields of course).

"Land on the road," he said, pointing at a dirt track (on which we didn't see any vehicles the whole day). "We'll stop very quickly so we don't need much of the road to be in a straight line, we'll stay the right way up, and the floats will probably be repairable."

[Chuck Ellsworth]

Hi Gertrude!:)

You said:

" Ah, well, Vancouver Island is certainly different to south-east England ..."

Of course it is, more mountains for one thing..

However my comments were aimed at choosing a safe landing area for an engine out landing.

Please read my comments again and maybe point out where I was wrong?

Have another look at the airplane in the picture that landed in a field with a standing crop, then consider the odds of flipping upside down on a road.

By the way I am well aware of the road system in England, however there are roads that are landable...

Anyhow read what I posted and I believe that I am correct in my comparison between the chances of a safe landing on a suitable road versus a field with a standing crop.

Chuck E.

[Fournicator]

Chuck:

Couldn't agree more, old boy, but there are plenty of fields in the UK without tall crops in. Fields that are either fallow due to EU regulations (eurocrats actually inadvertently helping pilots, there's a turn up for the books), or where the crop is either short or has recently been harvested all offer much safer landing oppurtunites than most UK roads.

The majority of UK roads that aren't busy tend to be extremely narrow and with walls or hedges alongside them, not to mention being curvier than Pamela Anderson.

[Chuck Ellsworth]

Fournicator:

No argument there regarding fields and roads in England, all I was pointing out was sometimes the choice could be a road.

It would be interesting to know how many PPL's are taught how to judge crops and field conditions against roads for emergency landings?

I have noticed that if you are not wearing a bright green safety vest at a lot of your airports they become completely unglued because you might get run down by some pilot on the ramp.....strange real strange rules...

Anyhow off airport landings are a very important part of flying and the best advice I can give is teach em to " ALWAYS " be ready for an emergency landing and look for the best places as you fly...always...

Maybe some day I will relate some of the roads and beaches and eskers and snow surfaces we used to operate the DC3's on in the Canadian North and the High Arctic...:E

C.E.

[Fournicator]

Maybe some day I will relate some of the roads and beaches and eskers and snow surfaces we used to operate the DC3's on in the Canadian North and the High Arctic...:E


You're making me jealous now!

You're right, as far as I'm aware most PPL's don't get taught to recognise crops from the air, a skill drummed into cross-country glider pilots.

For anyone interested, a useful reference is:
http://www.field-landings.co.uk

[ShinyNacelles]

in a court of law I could probably explain my reasons for destroying an aircraft, cornfield or sheep but I would struggle to explain about the carnage caused by landing on a road some times in built areas where can one go but the least point of damage to human life and property and if that has to be a road so be it, that's why we have rule 5. well what about at fields that have houses on the departure one must think carefully on take off with a EFATO I try and think what if.

[Say again s l o w l y]

Any PPL that's been through my hands will have been taught about crops and recognising them, infact there are very few I've ever met who don't have at least a passing knowledge of crops and why they are a bad idea to land on.

In the UK we are blessed with far more suitable fields to land in compared to suitable roads. I can think of very few places where it would be a consideration. Afterall, light a/c are able to operate from some pretty rough fields, so your average fallow or stubble field should present no problems at all.

At the end of the day, in a forced landing, the most important thing is to walk away, using the a/c again is of secondary importance, though obviously the less damaged it is, the less damaged you are likely to be!

Chuck, Don't you know that the Hi-viz jacket has been the single most important safety aid for aviation. More than having two crews, reliable engines, decent nav equipment or even a good dose of common sense! All hail to the yellow eyesores, the saviour of aviation.:yuk:

[Gertrude the Wombat]

Please read my comments again and maybe point out where I was wrong?
You weren't wrong at all ... it's just that:
as long as you make sure it is clear of traffic
rules out pretty well all the roads round here pretty well all of the time (except late at night when I'm not flying anyway), so whilst a "suitable road" might indeed be better than standing crops the non-existence of "suitable roads" in south-east England in daylight means that in practice this isn't a choice one meets very often round here.

[Chuck Ellsworth]

Getting a bit off subect here but what the hell:

Just another comment on the DC3.

I had the fun of flying Fifi Kate one of the airplanes used in Band of Brothers last summer, delivered the thing from Lelystad to Valkenberg Hollland for an annual inspection.

It had been around thirty years since I flew a DC3, but it is such an easy airplane to fly it only seemed like one day since I had flown one....they are a magnificant flying device and a real pleasure to fly.

Sorry for the hijack and my rambling..getting old you know so I hope you all will forgive me..:ok:

C.E.

[Chuck Ellsworth]

Quote:

" I have three high-viz jackets and the fact that I'm alive proves their worth, "

I have flown for coming up on 54 years and outside of a couple of airports in England and a few in Europe I never wore a high vis jacket...

Does that mean I'm just one lucky SOB to have not been run over by an airplane?? :confused:

C.E.

[powerless]

A useful web site covering selecting fields can be found at http://www.field-landings.co.uk/.
It is primarily aimed at glider pliots but may be useful to all.

[Fournicator]

Can anyone else hear an echo in here?

[Paris Dakar]

First off, let me say that I'm pleased that the folk in this incident escaped without serious injury. Not personally knowing the area at all, the standing crops may have been their only option?

To suggest that someone is 'idiotic' for considering landing on a road seems a little harsh and a tad rude. You don't choose when and where to have engine problems therefore your choices of a suitable landing spot may well be limited. According to Gycoler's profile he operates out of the Isle of Man, so let's assume that you are overhead Douglas (but not within gliding distance of Ronaldsway) when you suffer an engine problem - one option that could be available might be the beach? But what if the engine problem happened if you were overhead Snaefell? Personally, I'd be opting to land on the road albeit twisty and narrow because I'd really doubt that landing on the surrounding craggy rocky area would be condusive to a succesful outcome.

I accept that the M25 at 08.30 would be a seriously poor error of judgement but the A1M just south of Newcastle at 05.30 could be a consideration if all else failed.

[stiknruda]

the A1M just south of Newcastle at 05.30 could be a consideration if all else failed.

I'm not so sure - if you did avoid the lighting and the sign gantreys, you'd be bound to be zapped by the speed cameras:E

[Paris Dakar]

stiknruda,

I'm not so sure - if you did avoid the lighting and the sign gantreys, you'd be bound to be zapped by the speed cameras

You're ded right, and knowing my luck it will be one of those forward facing cameras that will catch the reg on the side too! Double bonus - the local law enforcement will be agitated cos I blocked the motorway, the CAA will want to know why I did what I did, and to round matters off I'll get a photo of the event through the post complete with fine and fixed penalty notice :ok:

I forgot to mention that I did see a Piper Malibu(?) on a freeway in Florida that had landed as a result of a problem. It was late afternoon and how he/she hadn't hit anyone was totally beyond me - the road was very busy. The aircraft was neatly parked next to the median (but not on it) and the police were directing the motorists around it.

[G SXTY]

This forced landing was in Essex, near Tiptree. For those who don’t know the area, it’s as flat as a snooker table and full of nice big fields. The only road around there straight enough and wide enough to accommodate even a 152 would be the A12 – and each to his own, but I’d rather land in a field full of hungry wild animals than on a road like that.

And as for avoiding vegetation, I did some PFLs not a million miles from there just last weekend, and it was quite sobering just how few fields didn’t have standing crops . . . :ooh:

[OpenCirrus619]

When I was doing my PPL I was getting worried about PFLs - the advice I was given was:
The aim as a PPL, should you get engine failure, is to walk away from the wreckage.
I'd say that the folks in this case achieved the aim.

There's been many people killed by trying to save the aeroplane: e.g. stretching the glide to get to a better field. A good number of those would be alive today had they just accepted the fact their pride and joy was going to get broken and concentrated on getting the energy involved as low as possible at the point of impact.

When considering the merits of roads vs. fields the following points have been made to me in the past:

Roads have signs / gantries / street lamps / .... - most of which you can't spot from the air
Most roads are not wide enough. When you compare the width of a motorway to that of a runway do remember that the runway does not usually have armco down either side.
Car drivers (if you are lucky) will be expecting people to pass them on the left and right. If you pass them overhead they are likely to be so suprised they will cause a major pile up or run into YOU.
Should the car you land behind notice you in his mirror its 50/50 that he will slam on the brakes - can your 152 / PA38 outbrake a modern car with ABS?

The bottom line is that, should you find a bit of road clear of obstacles to land on, a car / lorry driver will probably spoil your day anyway. Better just to accept the field of crops, a bent airframe and an intact body.

Just my few cents worth.

OC619

[Microfright]

http://www.wkrn.com/node/30683#top
I wonder how the CAA would react to this situation?

[Gertrude the Wombat]

Chuck:
If you're going to land on a highway you'd better have one on.
There are, I'm told by people who wear them for work, two contradictory responses of the public to seeing people wearing hi-ris vests out and about on the streets:

(1) assuming they're someone important and in authority

(2) completely failing to see them at all.

[Final 3 Greens]

Road or Field

Surely this is about situational awareness and decision making?

I'd take whichever option appeared to offer the highest probability of success at the time.

[Chuck Ellsworth]

" (I can't believe you took my post seriously, did you?) "

WR, no , I figured you were joking and thought if you were serious you had far greater neuron disconnects than it would be within my ability to help you out with.

I had to quit flying for a living because of my inability to keep up with or understand all the new rules and policies that have to be dealth with just to fly airplanes that I have been flying for longer than most of these cretins who dream up these rules have been alive.

I am fed up, finished and relieved to go on with my life without having to be insulted just to earn a living.

I have a real advantage over all the people who are starting in aviation and that is that I learned to fly and worked in the industry when personal accountability, airmanship and the ability to actually fly aircraft was the norm.

So to my brethern in aviation you have my sincere condolances for your having to be treated like some zombie by people who couldn't find their as.holes with a set of moose antlers telling them how to do their job.

There you go WR.... I hope we are on the same frequency now? :)

Chuck E.