VFR Communication

[Hawabaaz1]

Hi everyone.. my very first post..

I did my PPL in States and since the RT is very different there i am struggling abit with RT back here in the UK. Could anyone suggest the best way to improve my RT FAST? Thanks.

[chevvron]

Join a flying club at somewhere like Cranfield; the RTF is continuous there.
Alternatively, join one adjacent to a busy LARS unit; you soon get used to it.

[dwshimoda]

Chevvron is right - I did all my training at Cranfield and it makes you learn the RT very quickly - it's noticeable how visitors can sometimes struggle with the pace.

I also find listening into a busy radio with a scanner can help.

DW.

[Maxflyer]

The club I belong to have a regional RT examiner on site who runs evening RT classes. perhaps a refresher might help.

PM me for details.

[ZuluWhiskey]

Hey Hawabaaz1, I had exactly the same problem coming home from doing my PPL in Florida, it's initially a nightmare, this is what I did:

1. To start with I bought and read Jeremy Pratt's PPL book on Communications, there's pretty much everything in there.
2. I joined a small flying club at a non controlled airfield and planned for every flight meticulously in terms of RT, i.e. I wrote down and learnt all things I had would have to say. After a few hours of this, you'll get used to it fairly quickly.
3. I got myself an airband scanner and listened to it as much as possible and predicted what the pilot would say back.
4. I flew with a friend who flies in a busy area and did bits of RT with him.
5. Lastly, I asked the instructor checking me out as many questions as I could think of. There's every chance he/she did some of their training in the States so will understand your problem.

I've started flying at a controlled airfield this last year and have had to up my RT a bit. I just did the same stuff as before, basically, lots of exposure and not being afraid of asking the instructors what I thought were simple questions. Definitely daunting as first but you'll convert in no time.

Hope that helps
ZW

[dublinpilot]

In case you don't already know about it, the CAA's RT guide is here:
CAP 413 RT Manual (http://www.caa.co.uk/application.aspx?categoryid=33&pagetype=65&applicationid=11&mode=detail&id=247)

This is the official guide to what you need to say. The single most important piece in my opinion, is the reply to "Pass your message". You'll have to use this a lot.

That's where to find the answers. How to learn quickest? I'd suggest finding a pilot buddy if you can, and go flying together. One does the handling, navigation and command decisions, and the other does the radio work. On the return flight, swap around.

This will mean that when you are doing the R/T you'll have more time to think about it, and concentrate on it. You'll take it in much quicker that way.

When flying, you'll have to chance to listen out and hopefully learn a little from someone elses r/t or if not that, then at least from their mistakes!

dp

[aluminium persuader]

1. Buy biscuits. plain chocolate for preference.
2. Phone nearby ATC unit & say "I have chocolate biscuits. May I please come & visit?"
3. Visit said ATC unit. See what controllers want. See what pilots give. Don't forget to feed said biscuits to controllers.

Job's a good'un!

:)

[Hawabaaz1]

Thanks alot folks... my first question and so many ppl here with the solutions... this is great :-)

It is funny but the last time i went flying, for a moment, i thought the controller was speaking russain. It can be very discouraging if you havnt got a clue as to what is being said to you. Time to practice. And more practice.

Cheers all.

[IO540]

If you can't understand the controller then you need a new radio, new intercom, new headset, or some combination of those :)

An English pilot would normally find U.S. ATC-speak very difficult. They casually abbreviate a lot of stuff, especially when talking to a known local. I found this a huge problem when doing my IR out there. UK/European ATC are very professional in comparison.

On a wider topic, UK PPLs are taught to call up everybody under the sun. This is pointless. Only speak to somebody who can offer you a useful service.

[Gertrude the Wombat]

If you can't understand the controller then you need ...

... not to be talking to an American airbase controller somewhere in East Anglia ...

... the conventional response is, after failing to parse the reply to "please say again" several times, to say "changing to ...", or simply to tell them the route you're taking through their MATZ (no problem, they can see you on the radar anyway, and you have done your best to communicate).

[markflyer6580]

Without wanting be rude,I find most people's RT that I hear when flying to be abysmal, lots of um,erm,er,about,can you repeat that etc etc:confused:
I would hazard a guess that most of them learnt here not in the U.S....
I'm no expert but I was told early on that if you don't sound like you have some sort of idea what you are doing,that svfr clearance etc will not be coming your way!
I can hear the frustration in the controllers voices at my home base every time and its not usually students that are the offenders.
Sorry to rant,but decent RT is no bad thing:)

[DBChopper]

Sorry to rant,but decent RT is no bad thing

Don't be sorry - you are absolutely right! Some of the R/T I hear is so appallingly inept it makes me cringe, others ramble on for so long you could end up orbiting (or hovering ;) ) while waiting to get in on the airwaves.

It's already been said a couple of times, but my top tip is a little airband radio tuned to a few local frequencies. Ten minutes listening in every now and again will soon help you recognise good practice from bad and improve your chances at deciphering the rapid-fire delivery some controllers specialise in. If you want to listen to a wide range of pilots' abilities versus exceptionally professional and tolerant controllers, you can do far worse than tune into Thames Radar on 132.7

It can be a bit of an eye (ear?) opener... :rolleyes:

[drauk]

I'm no expert but I was told early on that if you don't sound like you have some sort of idea what you are doing,that svfr clearance etc will not be coming your way!

Whilst this seems plausible it was largely debunked by an experiment a couple of years ago whereby someone with faltering RT asked for and was granted transits all over the place (whilst accompanied by the prolific "Timothy", who was subsequently going to ask for the same clearances in his x,000 hours ATPL voice but never got that far because there was no point). My own empirical evidence of hearing varying standards of RT getting zone transits granted or denied, plus the stated opinions of ATC'ers themselves, would also suggest it just isn't the case.


I'm not sure I agree that listening in on a busy frequency is a good way to learn, given that as stated left and right, the standard isn't very high. Listening to professionals, i.e. commercial airways traffic, isn't much help either because the nature of what they're doing and saying is so different from a VFR flight from here to there. However, what you can take away from listening to them is how LITTLE they say. In fact, most bad RT seems to me to involve talking too much. So my tip is to say as little as possible whilst getting the essentials across - who you are, where you are, what you want, unlike me in this post before someone else says it. Have a clear idea of what you're going to say before you PTT and listen to make sure that nobody has just finished saying something to which one would expect a reply (e.g. don't jump in after a clearance has been given by ATC until the recipient has acknowledged it).

Mind you, if you learnt in the US then most of what I've said above will probably already be second nature because they tend to talk less (in response to me acknowledging an instruction with "turn left zero nine zero, november six foxtrot" an instructor said to me "if you don't cut it with that november **** we'll never get home").

The problem with RT standards in my opinion is that you don't learn by doing it for real, because nobody corrects the mistakes you make, because it's bad form for a controller to "beat you up" whilst you're trying to fly. So take the flying out of the equation; find an experienced pilot, sit in a quiet room and fly from Southend to Bristol tracing your route on a half mil map, you making all the radio calls and him answering them and correcting your screw ups.

[windriver]

The single most important piece in my opinion, is the (CAP413) reply to "Pass your message". You'll have to use this a lot.


Well said dublinpilot....

[Piltdown Man]

I was in the same position some time ago. An American instructor put me right - a message is made up of "Who you are, where you're at (SIC) and what you want." If you don't want anything, there is no need to speak to anyone!

[englishal]

The thing about RT is not to worry too much about the format....that comes with practice....but to know what you want to ask and ask it in a clear and concise way......who you are, where you are, what you want:

GABCD is a PA28 from Jersey to Bristol via Portland VFR, 10 South of Bournemouth at 3000', request RIS.......

I don't bother with headings, ETAs, and stuff like that unless it is pertinent (on the way to Jersey I'd say the ETA at ORTAC or 50N as I know from experience they'll just come back and ask me). In the above example, if I am going from Jersey to Bristol, I am sure a controller can work out my rough heading. They probably don't care about my ETA, and if they do they will come back and ask me. Later on if I decide to change my route or altitude, I'll come back and advise them.

I learned in the USA, but around LA where RT has to be learned from day one. I used to crap myself at the thought of getting it wrong, but you do get it in the end and it is no biggie.

[IO540]

In the UK, OCAS, VFR, there is generally no point in calling up anybody unless they have radar.

I nearly wrote "unless they can provide a radar service" but actually it's worth calling up a radar unit for an FIS, if you are passing close to/under their airspace. Even if they don't provide you with a radar service, they will see you allright so they won't keep asking stupid questions, and this will help them with separation with traffic which they are working.

So, no point in calling up London Info, Goodwood Radio, Panshanger Radio, Eaglescott Radio, etc.

I am suprised, Drauk, that radio competence does not correlate with VFR transits. How many units was this tested with? Was it tested outside the UK? For starters, Timothy would have had a Mode C transponder. Did he tell them it was an Aztec or did he pretend to be a Warrior?

[edymonster]

How would the correct procedure for asking for SVFR?

Is it just the same as a MATZ penetration where you say who you are, where your going and the request a MATZ penetration with your ETA to the entering the airspace (hope thats right).

[n5296s]

I've had the same problem, 900 hrs in the US, occasionally fly out of White Waltham when visiting. Assuming you're OK with the radio in the US (I fly out of Palo Alto, between San Francisco and San Jose, so no problem there for me anyway), it's not that big a deal. I did my first solo xc in the UK a couple of months ago. Occasionally I left things out that the UK wants (like origin of flight, no idea why they care but they do), they just very politely asked me for it. At W/W you definitely *do* need to use the radio, especially if you want to fly to points eastward and clip corners off the Heathrow Class A.

I did a couple of hours dual (had to anyway for the club checkout) which mostly got me straight on the different radio technique. The main differences are:

-- things have different names (Radar vs Center, Radio vs Tower etc)
-- the format of a flight following/FIS request
-- the format of an initial contact to an airport for landing
-- and flying-wise, the overhead join used in the UK

The smart thing to do (which I didn't) would be to jot down a summary of the differences and clip it to your kneeboard.

n5296s

[Whirlybird]

Find a small - but perferably busy - airfield which has volunteers on the radio. Ask if you can go up to the tower and listen on a busy weekend day, or if you can even do some of it. That way, you'll be surrounded by UK radio usage, and you'll pick up how it's done. If you're at all nervous with the radio, being a trainee AG operator will help incredibly; I did this in the early days, and it did more for my RT than any amount of reading, flying with other pilots etc etc. Practice makes perfect. :ok:

[drauk]

Find a small - but perferably busy - airfield which has volunteers on the radio.

This might be a good idea for someone who is just generally inexperienced or nervous about RT, but the poster is comfortable with RT in the US, just not in the UK. Visiting one small airfield won't get you used to zone transits, MATZ penetration, flying at a controlled airfield etc, so is of very limited use in this case.

How many units was this tested with? Was it tested outside the UK? For starters, Timothy would have had a Mode C transponder. Did he tell them it was an Aztec or did he pretend to be a Warrior?

The idea was to try the different combinations, with the junior pilot in both a rented PA28 and Timbothy's Aztec, then Timothy in both planes too. They were going to try Thames and Luton and a couple of others. However, the junior guy in the PA28 got let through everywhere so they never did the rest of the flights. It was published in Flyer, though I expect the big man himself could furnish you with the details.

Not that my own experience proves anything but I've never heard someone with poor RT being denied a transit and within a short amount of time someone with good RT being granted one.

[Whirlybird]

This might be a good idea for someone who is just generally inexperienced or nervous about RT, but the poster is comfortable with RT in the US, just not in the UK. Visiting one small airfield won't get you used to zone transits, MATZ penetration, flying at a controlled airfield etc, so is of very limited use in this case.


I disagree. If you're really comfortable with RT, the fact that the terminology is different is no big deal; you simply learn the new terminology. It's not like it's in a foreign language; it's just different words. Practice in becoming totally comfortable with communicating on the radio, in the same way as you would on the phone or in your own home for instance, is what this is all about. Once you're comfortable in this way, it's easy and quick to learn what to say in each situation, in each country.

[drauk]

I was just going on what the original poster said - that it was the US UK differences that were bothering them. Not sure that we can infer they are either comfortable or uncomfortable with RT in general from that.

[IO540]

Drauk

Of course I wouldn't doubt your actual results; however I wouldn't like to bet on extrapolating it to scenarios beyond the common UK "a PPL asking for a Luton transit" type of thing.

Especially to outside the UK, Class C transits at 5k-10k feet, etc. I've been in situations where it was apparent that they expected you to be right on the ball, or you got nothing. One is speaking to the foreign equivalent of London Control, who give you exactly 5 seconds to deliver the goods :)

I also think that IFR navigation (but VFR flight) is worth brownie points; asking for a VOR-VOR leg across the piece of CAS suggests the pilot knows what he's doing.

[Kolibear]

You only have to say three things on the radio

1. Who you are (eg G-XXXX C150)

2. Where you are (eg 5 miles east, 2000' QNH 1001)

3. What you want to do ( eg request joining instructions0

2 key words to remember - 'Standby' & 'Say again'

[IO540]

Is the pilot allowed to say "standby"? I am curious; got a bollocking for it from an instructor once.

[Gertrude the Wombat]

Is the pilot allowed to say "standby"? I am curious; got a bollocking for it from an instructor once.
?? - if the controller had just asked you for, say, your ETA at some point you weren't expecting to be asked about, and you had to take a few seconds to work out the answer, would your instructor had preferred you to just remain silent and not answer the call, or to reply with "um er just a minute" thus tying up the frequency whilst you worked it out??

[172driver]

Is the pilot allowed to say "standby"? I am curious; got a bollocking for it from an instructor once.

Of course you are. Never forget that the controller is providing a service to you .

[n5296s]

You only have to say three things on the radio...


In the UK they also seem to want to know where you came from and where you're going. I was asked for this when I forgot to give it. No idea what they do with it, especially the where you came from bit.

n5296s

[IO540]

Agreed, but I would have actually said "give me 30 seconds". Learn something every day :O

I do wonder why they want desparture/dest; this is the case everywhere I've been to in Europe, when VFR. Probably because VFR flight plans don't get distributed other than to dep/dest and occassionally enroute FIS, so most people you speak to have no idea where you are from, etc.

[Whirlybird]

"Standby" and "say again" are extremely useful. Though it's worth remembering that London Information almost always want an ETA, so you'll have it when they ask. However, they are entirely happy with "in approximately 30 minutes", if you haven't worked it out. And if you're crossing the channel, they'll want an ETA at the FIR boundary. Judging by the number of times I hear them say "Let me know when you have it" on a sumy weekend day, not a lot of pilots know that.

Why do they want departure and destination? I don't know exactly...where are our ATC people when we need them? But presumably, it gives them an idea of your route, and maybe who to pass you on to or suggest you talk to. Also, if you have an accident, they'll know who to contact...if you just left your home airfield anyway. And if you didn't, the last airfield will know where you came from before that, etc.

[Julian]

Of course ... "Standby" sounds a damn site better than "Erm....Arr......Errr......" :}

[skydriller]

Though it's worth remembering that London Information almost always want an ETA..... they'll want an ETA at the FIR boundary. Judging by the number of times I hear them say "Let me know when you have it" on a sumy weekend day, not a lot of pilots know that.


Yup, I didnt know that and was asked by London info over the weekend, couldnt snap back with an answer either as it didnt figure as needed in my plan, plus the 'ETE Next' on the trusty GPS was cherbourg, not the FIR boundry....:\

Regards, SD..

[Hawabaaz1]

Just to add, i am not uncomfortable with RT in general. My only concern is the fact that unlike in America we are expected to give away our life history to the controllers :) . But you guys are right.. i should just write everything down and practice it.

Also wanted to find out how accurate one has to be with the ETAs & ETEs? Cheers.

[tmmorris]

Have to say that I try to get the ETAs within 3-4 minutes and often call with a correction if I've b@llsed up - but the latter is usually greeted with bemusement, so I guess they aren't that bothered. Undoubtedly more important when on London Info, though.

Can't see why people don't know to work out an ETA for the FIR boundary - that requirement is written in lots of places (including, I seem to remember, the guidance notes for writing a flight plan - don't you have to put ETE/LFFFxxxx in the remarks?)

Tim

[SparkyBoy]

You could try online, the closest to the UK RT communications I could find was Dublin a/p. Same RT protocol and style tbh.

I was listening in online to some US ATC conversations (Seattle I think) and I'm surprised they get any traffic moved at all. The ATCR was telling the pilot about a great little cafe at the airport and told him his favourite item on the menu. :=

Cheers

Sparky

[n5296s]

I was listening in online to some US ATC conversations (Seattle I think) and I'm surprised they get any traffic moved at all. The ATCR was telling the pilot about a great little cafe at the airport and told him his favourite item on the menu.

It's pretty rare to hear this kind of thing in the US, in my experience anyway. If things are very quiet then you might get a sentence or two. Other pilots following the right procedure (more or less) but v e r y s l ow l y are a bigger problem. If you're on a busy freq like Norcal around SFO & SJC or for that matter Palo Alto tower on the weekend, there is no time for anything extraneous.

n5296s